Is it a bad thing that SR makes no sense to me?

[XeutonMojukai]

I hate to offend anyone who seems to love SR, but to me it is far too confusing to make any sense...

If reality is my own choice, then somewhere I chose to have neurological disorders that get in the way of my mind's ability to function.

If I'm directly connected to consciousness as long as I am willing to trust that, then I should be the most successful 19-year-old who ever lived, since my mind knows no limits that it doesn't just transcend instantly.

If I can manifest anything, then why can't I manifest the lack of requiring hard work on top of the endless stuff I do just to be sane day-to-day?

How can I have large-scale, long-term plans to change the world when every day is infinitely filled with conscious thought to control my own ego?

Finally, what do all these stupid words mean, anyway? why does anyone care, when it's perfectly easy to make a difference by being your own change?

If there is only one consciousness, then it's perfectly reasonable that I can will all people to have the same mindset as myself, yet that's not the case.

If I'm the only consciousness that exists, then those of you reading this are illusions, and do not exist except as part of my mind...

Not only is this confusing, but it's also the most amoral system I've ever seen, and is simply a justification for cheating in life.

Why not embrace finiteness, and die knowing you'll immediately be infinite again?

Isn't the most fascinating thing about life the fact that you're not every person, but rather just one among many?

Isn't it more fun to be part of a group than the Mastermind of existence?

Pretty f***ing lonely, if you ask me...

So what if you can win the lottery or make someone say something? It's a cheap trick of your preternatural divinity and is going against the whole point of our lives...

If life is a game, why not play by the rules, or at least make the rules fair?

And finally, if psychics do exist, why can't their almighty consciousness be fabricating the things they sense, just to give the illusion of reality?

Alright, rant over, but think about all this, because it's not exactly like any of us really has a clue what we're talking about except from our perspective and that of our imaginative "transcendence" into objectivity, thinking we know what others are thinking...

Maybe I'm turning Cartesian, maybe I'm going insane, but maybe - just maybe - I'm coming onto something that none of you have ever thought about...

~ David

[seeker5]

I don't understand SR either. I've listened to the two podcasts on it and read several of the articles on it, but there are still holes I don't understand.

Steve does say you should experiment with it to fully understand it. While, I do play with it for brief moments of times as if it is true, I haven't carried out a full adoption of it to test it. My current focus is more on implementing and experimenting other things first. I'm sure eventually I'll get around to fully and completely experimenting with SR and reading every article there exist about it. Until then I'll continue to not really understanding it and I'm fine with that.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by XeutonMojukai

maybe I'm going insane, but maybe - just maybe - I'm coming onto something that none of you have ever thought about...

~ David

Hey there, David. As it turns out, ALL of your questions and concerns have been addressed and discussed at length and ad nauseum here in this forum. You sound like you're too busy to go through and read it all, so I'll summarize it for you:

Con: "Braack! It's wrong!"
Pro: "Well, that's true in YOUR reality!"
Mod: "It's a tool. Use it if it helps you; don't if you don't."

[Shamou]

Robert M. Pirsig who wrote the classic “Zen and that Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” said something to the to the effect that… “If metaphysic does something for you… fine… if not, leave it alone and go on your merry way…”

I believe that it is excellent advice…

.

[XeutonMojukai]

Thanks guys...

I get so many mixed messages here, that having such clear-cut understanding layed out is very nice indeed.

~ david

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Angela

Hey there, David. As it turns out, ALL of your questions and concerns have been addressed and discussed at length and ad nauseum here in this forum. You sound like you're too busy to go through and read it all, so I'll summarize it for you:

Con: "Braack! It's wrong!"
Pro: "Well, that's true in YOUR reality!"
Mod: "It's a tool. Use it if it helps you; don't if you don't."

Could you set it up so that this quote stays stuck on everyone's monitor... top, right hand corner... it would simplify matters a whole lot...

.

[XeutonMojukai]

There's more than just those three options, which is nice...

I personally think that the use of the LoA to make oneself powerful is a misuse of our connectedness.

I'm much more in favor of raising the power of all people in one action.

Think about the following:

If, in the wake of 9/11, the Bush Administration had been wise enough to call all countries together, all people, and try to end every bad thing they could think of, the world would be so much better that the money they've made on the war would be insignificant compared to this impact they might have had.

In the words of Elrond:

"It should have ended that day; but Evil was allowed to endure... There is no honor left in men. They are scattered, divided, leaderless."

~ David

[Dharma]

You don't have to know about SR to be in the world. Just be in the moment and receive your experiences as they come. That's all the world asks of you.

Some people on the planet are meant to be consciousness pioneers, some are technicians, some vibrate ease and flow, etc. Not everyone has to get this and it really is mind-candy for most anyway. It won't greatly change your life but it does open some doors if consciousness is your game.

[Akashic_Librarian]

I agree with the Motorcycle Maintenance quote....

If you don't WANT to understand it. Then go on...be off with you

If you DO want to understand it, then stop resisting it so much! The law is cyclic, it works upon itself, like the snake eating its own tail.

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by Angela

Con: "Braack! It's wrong!"
Pro: "Well, that's true in YOUR reality!"
Mod: "It's a tool. Use it if it helps you; don't if you don't."

Great one Angela. I was about to post a typical mod comment. Now, I don't have to .

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by XeutonMojukai

I hate to offend anyone who seems to love SR, but to me it is far too confusing to make any sense...

Each human experience is a self-fulfilling prophesy, which is based on a subjective interpretation of an objective reality.

To me, SR it is not confusing; it is just not supported by modern science. Check out Mind Time by Benjamin Libet and for balance, Consciousness Explained by Daniel C. Dennett.

[XeutonMojukai]

Don't worry, I'm not a fan of modern science either when it comes to understanding reality.

I understand that the reality of this is certainly there, but I also understand that the application of it is a bit shady most of the time I see it.

~ David

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by XeutonMojukai

Don't worry, I'm not a fan of modern science either when it comes to understanding reality.

Why would I worry?

[XeutonMojukai]

just...



------

On another note, I've actually come to realize that I have a pretty good worldview already, and that there's no real reason for me to be so afraid or annoyed.

I think I'll make it public once I flesh it out.

~ David

[ethereal]

I recently read a profound description of what SR may be like, and here's a copy of the post. The questions are provided for context

Why would the Saints, who were at union with God, create demons???????
That is illogical.

I understand what the person is trying to say. It's that they have their own 'inner demons' that are really aspects of themselves, unconscious perhaps, then manifesting in the world. If the world that is seen 'out there' is only a manifestation of what is 'in here', then demonic attributes to the world are really coming from inside, which is rather obvious in 'that state', or it infact may not be obvious, which would then really suck... The thing to do is realize that it is coming from some inner position, and then try to figure that out through so-called 'inner work'.

These demonic attributes of course, are only the ego, and so if you want to stop experiencing a hellish world while your third eye is open (or whatever it may be), then you of course, opt for spiritual purification. Now instead of hell, you see heaven, and the world reflects that back. It's all on how you percieve it, and the universe knows that too. It's very intelligent.

The opposite of creator is destroyer.
And of course, the destroyer creates destruction? They're not opposites, they're different aspects of the psyche. Do I wish to be benevolent, or violent in the energy field I put out? Not opposites at all.

When you "create " your reality how does that affect the realities
created by others?
It doesn't at all because there is 'no others' and they are one with you. Your reality IS there reality. However, they may not be experiencing this unity that you are experiencing. They are 'unaware' of this beautiful karmic dance of one-ness. That is because this level of perceiving the world is only coming out of a certain level of awareness - many are operating on OTHER levels of awareness. However there is an un-spoken recognition that ALL is aware of this, however they are simply not aware that they are aware. Plants and animals operate perfectly in this synchronicity, as do humans. It is all one infinite karmic dance that all participate in, because God is in everyone. God expresses himself perfectly through everyone, as if only to speak to you.

Other people don't experience this though, and so if you try and explain it to them, they will not understand at all. They'll ask you what it is, and you'll say "It's this.. This thing.. ... This.... thing... .. " And that's all. But in your own psyche, there is a known recognition that they won't understand what you are trying to say, and there is also a recognition that it is meant to be that way. That their 'not understanding' is perfect. Because it just will make it more wonderful for them when they realize what it was that they were missing all along. The recognition will be so profound upon there minds. It was all okay all along, they were held in perfect safety. They were, Gods Son, etc. All that stuff.

So they don't experience this oneness, instead they experience normal, average, daily perceptions. So it is said that the universe is a 'karmic whole' or 'unity'. What I percieve will radically alter and change the universe, however it will do so perfectly and concordantly into the lives of others, not just on this planet, but in this universe, and the other universes, and this dimension, and the other dimensions. It's all a whole. We all affect everyone else, because there is no-one else'. It's like a big, gigantic kaleidascope of karma and action and unity, held together by God consciousness operating underneath it all.

Do the realities created by others affect your reality??
Yes, but at the same time, no, because there's no difference between their reality and your reality, when you see the connecting principle operating underneath it (God). When you see that, you see that your all operating as a whole. It's hard to explain, but trust me, it's not the way you think. It's not like "I am controlling others" or doing this "against there will" - It's like that only if you channel negativity in that state, which only brings you to hell, and so you rigorously avoid all negative thinking because you realize it's essence, and how much more wonderful God is (because God is life). It's like the universe is ONE ORGANISM, and the actions of yourself, others, and everything inbetween, is one karmic dance. Every thought or change in your level of consciousness radically alters whatever happens, and this is the infinite quantum potentiality.

However, at the same time, the only thing it alters is the temporal. It in no way changes your ultimate reality, which is forever changeless and unalterable. The only thing you change is the world of effects.

Wouldn't it be true that if each person created their own
reality then at times their reality would clash with another's???
Hmm, a more accurate way to put it is that each person creates their own perception of reality, which then creates the 'out there' because consciousness is very powerful, especially when you realize unity. Whatever happens 'out there' is an illusion, and is only really pointing to what happens 'in here'. It is a .. confirmation .. it is creation.. it is Yourself? Not you "Marilyn" or you "Peter", but beyond the names. Beyond the duality of Me and You... There is God. Thus you have cause and effect. The rope and the snake. This is all at least, from my point of view. But i'm sure it's all pretty limited in other ways.. Hawkins talks about the death of the self and all, sheesh, sounds like he wants you to throw yourself into hell. Hehe! But I guess that's enlightenment for you, "Iy Caramba!" Oi ..

If you are the only one that exists then why is my reality different
from yours?
When I say I am the only one that exists, I mean that in the sense that with I, also comes along you, yet somewhere, we are united as one, and THIS is what we really are. This takes us back to something primal, primordial, within consciousness. Something that is allowing all action in the universe to happen with perfection synchronicity, recognition, knowingness and divine love, yet this thing, whatever it is, is hidden underneath ordinary consciousness. It is like a connecting principle of all life, and transcends time, words, dimensions, .. everything.. just about everything I think. Maybe not...


--------

Man, I love this quote:

"God expresses himself perfectly through everyone, as if only to speak to you."

To me, that explains and resolves all the contradictions and questions I had about SR

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by ethereal

If you are the only one that exists then why is my reality different from yours?

You are not the only one that exists. The reality is objective, but each person interprets the objective reality subjectively based on his/her beliefs and experiences, which often creates limitation for person growth.

SR implies that, for example, the sun does not exist objectively, unless you can observe it. So, according to SR, during the night or when the sky is covered with clouds, you are suppose to believe that the sun does not exist, since you cannot observe it.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by MrBig

You are not the only one that exists. The reality is objective, but each person interprets the objective reality subjectively based on his/her beliefs and experiences, which often creates limitation for person growth.

SR implies that, for example, the sun does not exist objectively, unless you can observe it. So, according to SR, during the night or when the sky is covered with clouds, you are suppose to believe that the sun does not exist, since you cannot observe it.

People who ascribe to a solipsistic based SR philosophy intrigue me. To believe you are the only one who exists, basing that soley from the perspective of your human persona is egotism in its most magnificent form. Or at least from my perspective it is. I'm not trying to claim absolute knowledge here. I'm not saying the person I quoted above ascribes to that by any means. MrBig obviously doesn't, but it was an interesting topic and I thought I would chime in anyhow. It's like they go through this nice period of childhood learning that "other people exist too" and then, in a moment of malformed insight, throw it all away and go back to ground zero. Taking that "be as a child" adage a bit far aren't we? Or maybe it is just the philosophical flavor of the week, so to speak.

That's not to say I don't ascribe to any aspect of SR, but the way I see it, leaves room for "other people" with "other thoughts" too. About 90% of SR/solispism confusion arises from semantics. 10% arises from actual disagreement in perspective.

If you are an unlimited being, it makes no sense to only have one observer/avatar. Why not an infinite number? Remember, unlimited. And furthermore, why not use all created "objects", including the trees, air, animals, minerals, and what have you as vehicles for consciousness as well? The idea of only one observer (from an ego/solipsistic perspective) is logically unsound and is projecting human limitations onto a consciousness that hypothetically has none.

Now if we are speaking outside of the ego framework, say, for example, someone who identifies with the continuum of consciousness itself, alot of statements that would otherwise sound bizarre to someone who ascribes to an objectively based perspective start to make a little more sense. This person can say things like, "You are a creation of me" and "Distance is an illusion" or "nobody has thoughts but me". Those are accurate statements, from that perspective, but to the people living in an objective framework, it is crazy talk.

If you identify with the One, nobody can have thoughts but you, because everyone IS you. When you realize the unity between everything, you understand perfectly why synchronicity/LoA happens. The choice/intent fixes the outcome of seemingly causal events, reflexively forcing the events to fulfill the choice in consciousness. Unconsciously (for most of us), we know all actions to take for every conceivable outcome to come to pass. When you utilize affirmations, intent, what have you to achieve fruition of your desires, you are simply programming yourself to follow all the necessary unconscious impulses to achieve your goals. There is only one medium for everything in existence, and it is mind. Matter is simply objectified mind -- energy that has had its free will restricted to specifics.

Our egos paint the illusory picture of separation of consciousness. It creates a boundary between conscious and so called "unconscious". The boundary isn't real, else law of attraction would never work.

So in truth we, as consciousness, are creating everything, but not from the ego level. God is within, Self is without, and Consciousness is inbetween.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by MrBig

The sun does not exist objectively, unless you can observe it. So, according to SR, during the night or when the sky is covered with clouds, you are suppose to believe that the sun does not exist, since you cannot observe it.

But that's true though. Not even talking about SR, but as far as you are concerned they do not exist unless you are observing them. They MAY exist to other people, but you or I have no way of knowing that... all we know is you see the moon at night becuase you see it. Otherwise it may not exist... my head hurts.

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by cylon

But that's true though. Not even talking about SR, but as far as you are concerned they do not exist unless you are observing them.

What is true? The sun does not exist objectively? As far as I am concerned, the sun exists at night even if it is invisible and not observable by me in the U.S. I can call someone in Europe and verify that. Of course, according to SR I would not be calling anyone in Europe, because Europe does not exist objectively either.

And of course, according to SR, this forum and all of you who post and reply on this forum don’t exist, because I cannot observe any of you. You know, sometimes a movie is just a movie. The Matrix was created in Hollywood after all.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by MrBig

What is true? The sun does not exist objectively? As far as I am concerned, the sun exists at night even if it is invisible and not observable by me in the U.S. I can call someone in Europe and verify that. Of course, according to SR I would not be calling anyone in Europe, because Europe does not exist objectively either.

And of course, according to SR, this forum and all of you who post and reply on this forum don’t exist, because I cannot observe any of you. You know, sometimes a movie is just a movie. The Matrix was created in Hollywood after all.

Yes, YOU could call someone in Europe so you could confirm the sun exists... then YOU would be convinced I suppose. It's impossible for anything to be objective since subjective is the only way we as individuals experience reality, therefore anything objective is purely theory.

I am not saying that the sun disappears when we aren't looking at it. I'm understand this less than probably anyone here, but I'm just making the observation that the world only exists to you because you are perceiving it.

I think metaphysical stuff has been around longer than the Matrix?

Don't give me that "" ish.

I think people here are taking things way too seriously.

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by cylon

It's impossible for anything to be objective since subjective is the only way we as individuals experience reality, therefore anything objective is purely theory.

Right If a person jumps from the 60th floor without a parachute, he/she may have a subjective experience during the fall to the ground (I can see the thoughts like “How could I be such an idiot to believe that the gravity is subjective?” racing through the head), but the result will always be the same, and objective.

[HowlingDao]

Nothing exists. Everything is a creation of thought. The sun is just energy which is given is shape in physical reality by the brain. the most awesome quantum computer ever created. So its not that sun isnt there when you are not viewing it, it that the sun isnt there ever.


Try reading Crack in the cosmic egg by Joseph Pearce. Its a hard read but well worth the effort.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by MrBig

Right If a person jumps from the 60th floor without a parachute, he/she may have a subjective experience during the fall to the ground (I can see the thoughts like “How could I be such an idiot to believe that the gravity is subjective?” racing through the head), but the result will always be the same, and objective.

Yes, the result will be the same... they will hit the floor hard and die... and the only person who will know about this as far as you are concerned is you.

You're seeing what we all would call objective... but the only possible way you can do this is through the subjective lens of your own perception. So technically, it is impossible to have an objective experience, right?

Round and round in circles and stuff.

(BTW I have no problem admitting I have no clue as to what I'm talking about)

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by cylon

I am not saying that the sun disappears when we aren't looking at it.

Phew! Good for you. The SR theory is saying that, though.

I'm understand this less than probably anyone here, but I'm just making the observation that the world only exists to you because you are perceiving it.

That is why natural selection works so well. Don’t take my word for it though, just stick both fingers into a working electrical outlet.

But don’t stop there, take a skydiving class and jump out of an airplane without a parachute. The law of gravity, according to SR, is just an illusion; it does not objectively exist, right? So, you’ll be fine. You know, all those people that use parachutes, they are just making a fashion statement.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by MrBig

Phew! Good for you. The SR theory is saying that, though.



That is why natural selection works so well. Don’t take my word for it though, just stick both fingers into a working electrical outlet.

But don’t stop there, take a skydiving class and jump out of an airplane without a parachute. The law of gravity, according to SR, is just an illusion; it does not objectively exist, right? So, you’ll be fine. You know, all those people that use parachutes, they are just making a fashion statement.

No, it exists because countless years of conditioning have convinced us gravity would kill you... the "leap" of faith is too great.

But still, this is the way you see the world, you see people believing in gravity and surviving and people disbelieving and not living-- you have perceived that in your lifetime and are sharing that with us. I have perceived it too... we both are talking about something we have both experienced, and that's two people agreeing so we now say it is objective fact... in your subjective opinion that it's objective, mine too. So that's two subjective perspectives talking about objective stuff.... which is my "point", super elementary, that the only way you and I are ever going to experience life is through a subjective lens.

But I can see why SR makes people think they are going nuts.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by HowlingDao

Nothing exists. Everything is a creation of thought. The sun is just energy which is given is shape in physical reality by the brain. the most awesome quantum computer ever created. So its not that sun isnt there when you are not viewing it, it that the sun isnt there ever.


Try reading Crack in the cosmic egg by Joseph Pearce. Its a hard read but well worth the effort.

That sounds interesting. On the amazon site they show a blurb by Alan Watts, who is one of my favorite authors.

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by cylon

No, it exists because countless years of conditioning have convinced us gravity would kill you... the "leap" of faith is too great.

Okay, so why new born babies, as well as cats, dogs, and other animals – who are not “conditioned” die if they fall from a sufficient height?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by MrBig

Okay, so why new born babies, as well as cats, dogs, and other animals – who are not “conditioned” die if they fall from a sufficient height?

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate now. I am not really for or against SR, because like I said it confuses me too... it does interest me though (obviously). But I'll play (I'm enjoying our little exchange here).

In your experience and mine as well (for the sake of SR I guess we're the same consciousness) this is exactly what happens, they will not do so well. I grew up believing in gravity, you did too... so that's the reality we experience, that gravity is gonna getcha.

The more I think about this, the more it seems almost like it's a dream, like when you're dreaming you will have all these interactions with characters who aren't real, your mind made them up, and you go on little adventures and stuff and the laws of nature are sometimes warped or backwards. But in the dream (unless it's a lucid one, which are fun too!) you experience the interactions and adventures as situations happening to you that you have no control over, people talking to you and you don't know what they are thinking until you hear them speak... but it's really you making it up. Your mind (or consciousness) is creating the whole thing... but the person you identify as "Mr. Big" experiences the dream as being separate from your control.

So maybe gravity (in the SR model) is like this. We have spent years believing. Maybe we made it up, we just don't know it.

Am I going to jump off a building? Hell no. My entire life I have been conditioned to believe that would not turn out well. It would seem like a pointless thing to try... I'm more into just using this stuff to create a better, more fulfilling life for myself, not to turn myself into a psycho-daredevil (in my reality, that would be the actions of a loony).

Maybe I'm getting off point here, and it comes full circle: the ONLY way YOU can even be discussing gravity, is because it is YOUR experience you are reflecting back to me.

You're saying "cylon, have you ever dropped something heavy? It falls on the ground and stays there." And I am saying yes, you and I experience that the exact same way. But it is our experience we are discussing, not the objective fact itself, but our interpretation of it.

This makes me think of Alan Watts, he would often say stuff like "your eyes can't see themselves, your hand can't hold itself, your teeth can't bite themselves".

So hopefully I have answered your question... I guess it's not so much if the animals have been conditioned, maybe it's more of the concept that there are animals at all and that the concept of conditioning even exists at all.

[Max Power]

It's not a bad thing if SR makes no sense. SR is a belief system that places you true identity with consciousness and not your human mind/body. It can bake your noodle trying to grasp it, but it can offer some benefits to living your life, such as.....

People
Every person in your awareness is a part of you (consciousness) so there are no seperate people running around, it's all you. Because it's all you, the other people you create (yes, you create them) are the parts of you, that you desire to experience. So if you don't like someone, it's a part of you that you don't like. The interesting part of that is it's beneficial to know that person, because you can learn what it is about you, that you don't like.

Time
It's actually an illusion. Can you exist in the past or future? No, there is only ever this present moment, that's the only place you exist and that's the only place creation can happen. This is why all the PD gurus, say you must see your desires as already attained right now. Because you only exist in the moment, you can only create there. You don't create next week, or next year, you create everything right now.

You
You are not a human body with a mind walking around in a physical environment, you are consciousness and everything is inside you, including the body of an observer (human you) to observe what you are creating.

The universe, planets, space, 6 billion people.
None of these things exist all at once. Consciousness (you) are very powerful, but it doesn't have to render everything in it's awareness all the time. If you were on a space ship looking out a window at earth, then you have created that perception instantly to observe, but while doing that you're not in a cave in the earth observing the inside of a cave. It's the same with all the people on earth, can you ever observe them all at the same time? No, consciousness doesn't need to do that, so it doesn't.

Summary
SR places identity with consciousness, that is your true self. The body you observe through, while seemingly you, isn't the real you, it's just an observation point. It's important, but not fundamentally important as your true self, consciousness.

Nothing exists outside of conscious awareness. You only have to create and render whatever you choose to in your present moment awareness and that is the most exciting and challenging part..........because you're creating everything in your present moment awareness, that means you can create anything in your present moment awareness. Things like money, love, health, people, sky, rain and even annoying versions of you called telemarketers

Some people say that we can't see consciousness, but I don't agree, if you want to see it, just take a look around at your present moment awareness, everything there right now including you as the observer is consciousness. I find it helps to look at it as if it were a container of sorts, a structure with everything you observe inside it, including you observing it.

Consciousness is the container and everything inside it, but nothing outside of it, for nothing outside exists. You can bring anything into the container and make anything leave the container. You know it's your container, because you are the only one who is ever inside it 24/7.

It's your container, because you are consciousness, so what do you want to put inside it today? Love, money, sunny weather, pain, suffering?

It's all your choice, because it's all you

Enjoy!
Max

[cylon]

great post, and yes it is baking my noodle.