Is it a bad thing that SR makes no sense to me?

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by cylon

great post, and yes it is baking my noodle.

CY, that's a good thing because the point of SR is so it can empower you to live a better life, enjoy everything you create and be responsible for everything. Nothing can hurt you unless you let it. Anything you create that seems painful or scary, is actually of your creation, so if you don't like it, then create something else. Of course it's a good idea to always consider why you created something hurtful, because you're actually trying to teach yourself something, trying to expereince something, but you are always in control, so everything is always changeable.

It's empowering if you want it to be and it's stops us being victims.

Enjoy!
Max

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by cylon

You're saying "cylon, have you ever dropped something heavy? It falls on the ground and stays there." And I am saying yes, you and I experience that the exact same way. But it is our experience we are discussing, not the objective fact itself, but our interpretation of it.

That is why science uses certain protocols to test what is real and what is not real, and to make sure that the interpretation is correct.

Yes, these protocols are not perfect and scientists make mistakes, etc, but just because our experiences are subjective, does not mean the objective reality does not exist or depends on our observation.

I don’t have a problem believing that the gravity is not real; I think it would be very cool if it were so, but on what basis should I reject my subjective interpretation of gravity?

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by MrBig

That is why science uses certain protocols to test what is real and what is not real, and to make sure that the interpretation is correct.

Yes, these protocols are not perfect and scientists make mistakes, etc, but just because our experiences are subjective, does not mean the objective reality does not exist or depends on our observation.

I don’t have a problem believing that the gravity is not real; I think it would be very cool if it were so, but on what basis should I reject my subjective interpretation of gravity?

SR places creation with consciousness and there is only one consciousness. A whole reality thought and belief package is structured to maintain the perception of physical reality, things are created like gravity, air, wind, earth, everything tangible, but they are all creations to make reality acceptable and believable, even enjoyble, but as they are all creations, then other things can be created also.

You would only ever change your fundamental beliefs about the state of reality if you required to do that, why would you not believe that gravity existed anymore? So you could fly or float around, but what happens after that? How would that affect you and everyone around you? How would it change the reality? Would it be so earth shattering, that your reality would break?

Anything is possible, but somethings may not change for dramatic change could destabilize the reality to a point where it becomes unacceptable for consciousness to maintain it. Consciousness will never do something (while entirely possible) to damage or seriously alter the reality it has created, that's not the point of consciousness creating a stable reality in the first place.

Max

[cylon]

Originally Posted by MrBig

That is why science uses certain protocols to test what is real and what is not real, and to make sure that the interpretation is correct.

Yes, these protocols are not perfect and scientists make mistakes, etc, but just because our experiences are subjective, does not mean the objective reality does not exist or depends on our observation.

I don’t have a problem believing that the gravity is not real; I think it would be very cool if it were so, but on what basis should I reject my subjective interpretation of gravity?

From Mr.Big's vantage point, the entire universe is 100% dependent on your personal observation, otherwise (as far as you're concerned) nothing would exist. Same goes for me... the entire Universe's existance (as far as cylon is concerned) only exists because I acknowledge it.

That's basically where I'm at now, I am not even close to being an expert on SR. And one thing you should know about me is I came from a background of believer-to-atheist/skeptic, so when you talk about science and proof and everything, it's something I have taught myself to have a great respect for... I don't walk around thinking about gravity not existing and aliens and stuff... at least until LOA, now I'm willing to check this stuff out a little more.

I think I could have dreamed a dream that I went to school and learned about science and gravity, created something called LOA and movies like what the bleep and am now dreaming something else... and that the content of my previous dream was quite convincing.

And since I clearly don't think "cylon" truly invented the universe, I have to wonder about what it means to be an "individual", which gets into what Max Power has been saying.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Because you're actually trying to teach yourself something, trying to expereince something, but you are always in control, so everything is always changeable.

It's empowering if you want it to be and it's stops us being victims.

Enjoy!
Max

This is true. Just the other day I was saying how confused I was and here I am, my mind doing its best to take whatever my understanding of this stuff is to the next level.

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by cylon

From Mr.Big's vantage point, the entire universe is 100% dependent on your personal observation, otherwise (as far as you're concerned) nothing would exist.

From my point of view, the reality is objective and exists whether we observe it or not. We observe and interpret this objective reality from our subjective point of view, which is why it takes a long time to find out the truth.

We make mistakes, stumble, confuse ourselves, etc – but eventually, little by little, we know more and more about an objective reality. I don’t have a problem believing in existence of other realities, but it does not mean we have to reject our own.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by MrBig

I don’t have a problem believing in existence of other realities, but it does not mean we have to reject our own.

MB, that's very accepting of you and of course your opinion. There is no right or wrong, overall we must align ourselves with the most empowering belief system to help us create wonderful lives for ourselves.

SR places full responsibility for everything with the person who accepts it as truth, there are no 'it's not my fault' or 'I'm a victim' clauses in SR, but creative wise, it implies that you create everything in your awareness and that's very challenging when things don't look or are not going well

I'm looked at just about every religion and god/faith based system I could find over many years and I've found the most empowering one for me, but we're all different........................but not really

Works for me.

Max

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by cylon

And since I clearly don't think "cylon" truly invented the universe, I have to wonder about what it means to be an "individual", which gets into what Max Power has been saying.

I think things get out of hand pretty quickly when we try to use a tool such as the LoA, which has been designed to help us figure out what it means to be an individual, how to take control of your life, etc for something else.

I don’t see a connection between, “I’m 100% responsible for everything that happens in my life,” to “The gravity is an illusion and the whole universe exists only if I can observe it.”

[XeutonMojukai]

It's funny, I had a better grasp of these concepts *before* I was introduced to SR!!!

~ David

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by Max Power

SR places full responsibility for everything with the person who accepts it as truth, there are no 'it's not my fault' or 'I'm a victim' clauses in SR, but creative wise, it implies that you create everything in your awareness and that's very challenging when things don't look or are not going well

In my awareness, I don’t create mountains, gravity, nuclear fusion, clouds, water, oceans, cities, other people, cars, etc.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by MrBig

I don’t see a connection between, “I’m 100% responsible for everything that happens in my life,” to “The gravity is an illusion and the whole universe exists only if I can observe it.”

Remember that this thread is about SR, so with that in mind let's establish the connection.............

In the SR belief system, it's all you, not you your body, humaness, but you-consciousness. So the connection is very easy to see. If you are consciousness, then something can only exist if you (consciousness) are aware of it, to observe it is to be aware of it, so if you're not there to observe it, it's not in awareness and therefore doesn't exist.

Also, if you're consciousness, then everything in your awareness is of your creation and that makes you 100% responsible for everything in your awareness. So as consciousness, you create eveerything that is in your present moment awareness and you are 100% responsible for it, but nothing outside of your awareness exists, because you're not there creating it and or observing it.

It gets challenging when considering this from your physical body/mind POV, because you incorrectly think that is the creating mechanism, but you (consciousness) is the creator of the environment and your physical body to obseve the environment and the creation of everything inside it.

To use SR as a belief system that empowers creatorship means we have to let go of identifying ourselves as human beings, while that is our important observation point, it is not where we create from for it is a creation itself and creations don't create.

Max

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by Max Power

If you are consciousness, then something can only exist if you (consciousness) are aware of it, to observe it is to be aware of it, so if you're not there to observe it, it's not in awareness and therefore doesn't exist.

I’m conscious of my awareness and I subjectively interpret my surroundings (an objective reality) with my faculties. When I observe an object, an event, etc – I interpret it based on a number of factors (my beliefs, feelings, prior experience, etc).

My ability to observe something has nothing to do with an existence of an objective reality. Right now, I cannot observe my best friend, because he is in a different location, but he exists regardless of my current ability to observe him.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by MrBig

Right now, I cannot observe my best friend, because he is in a different location, but he exists regardless of my current ability to observe him.

If that's what you believe, then it is so.

But I must say I don't believe that is true, the only thing I know for sure, is that I exist right here, right now, everything else is a leap of faith at best and a delusion or at least an illusion at worst.

Max

[MrBig]

Originally Posted by Max Power

...the only thing I know for sure, is that I exist right here, right now,

No, you don’t. You are just my ego’s, avatar's, consciousness', what have you, creation that I have created, according to SR.

You don’t exist objectively, because there is no objective reality, according to SR. I cannot observe you, therefore you don’t exist. This forum does not exist either; I’m just typing messages to myself and imagining that other people (including you) respond to them.

...everything else is a leap of faith at best and a delusion or at least an illusion at worst.

Right, but to claim that the sun does not objectively exist at night because you can’t observe it or, that you are the creator of the Universe is not an illusion. That makes sense.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by MrBig

No, you don’t. You are just my ego’s, avatar's, consciousness', what have you, creation that I have created, according to SR.

You don’t exist objectively, because there is no objective reality, according to SR. I cannot observe you, therefore you don’t exist. This forum does not exist either; I’m just typing messages to myself and imagining that other people (including you) respond to them.

Right, but to claim that the sun does not objectively exist at night because you can’t observe it or, that you are the creator of the Universe is not an illusion. That makes sense.

Now can you see just how clever and cunning consciousness is? You think you're the only here who is the observer and I think I'm the only observer here, but we both know who's reality this is right? Consciousness has created such a dense and rich illusion, that it will almost fight to maintain it, to protect it, to ensure it remains stable.

But there is no escaping the inescapable truth.

One consciousness, one observer, one experience.

Enjoy!
Max

[cylon]

Originally Posted by MrBig

I’m conscious of my awareness and I subjectively interpret my surroundings (an objective reality) with my faculties. When I observe an object, an event, etc – I interpret it based on a number of factors (my beliefs, feelings, prior experience, etc).

My ability to observe something has nothing to do with an existence of an objective reality. Right now, I cannot observe my best friend, because he is in a different location, but he exists regardless of my current ability to observe him.

That's the whole thing. You are interpreting it. You are talking about what we both agree SHOULD be accepted as objective. But since it's you talking here on this thread, all you can offer is something subjective, and I as well. Your thinking that he exists outside your awareness is only coming from your awareness, not mine or anyone else's. And I know you aren't calling your friend saying "you still exist right? You still there dude?" You just take it as a given. What you perceive is enough proof for you.

Just like I would say my friend is over there... that's my perception that I share with you. I can't prove it either, I just take it for granted that it's a fact that should be obvious to anyone. But it's still my perception.

I guess you're saying objective things are objective because enough people have subjectively said it's so. No way to escape that the only way to experience anything is through that subjective lens.

In any case, the idea of LOA in itself is a pretty large shift in awareness. We may not be talking about gravity but the idea that you can control reality through your thoughts, and the idea that the universe exists because of your thoughts, I don't see them as so far removed (from at least being a possibility).

I mean the other day my dad comes up to me and says, "I heard something strange on the radio, that reality is really only our perception"... my Dad doesn't say stuff like that. Come to think of it I wonder what Max would say about my Dad telling me this.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by cylon

possibility). I mean the other day my dad comes up to me and says, "I heard something strange on the radio, that reality is really only our perception"... my Dad doesn't say stuff like that. Come to think of it I wonder what Max would say about my Dad telling me this.

Well, I'll jump in here and give my ten cents worth

What actually happened was that you projected that thought onto him and he then simulated the thought. Now that makes it sound like he has no free will of his own and that he doesn't actually have his own thoughts.

From the SR POV that is exactly what is happening, but to accept that you have to accept that technically, you don't have thoughts either, only consciousness has thoughts and human bodies (including your own) are just mechanisms for outputing those thoughts.

Max

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Well, I'll jump in here and give my ten cents worth

What actually happened was that you projected that thought onto him and he then simulated the thought. Now that makes it sound like he has no free will of his own and that he doesn't actually have his own thoughts.

From the SR POV that is exactly what is happening, but to accept that you have to accept that technically, you don't have thoughts either, only consciousness has thoughts and human bodies (including your own) are just mechanisms for outputing those thoughts.

Max

This is making more sense to me. For awhile I thought it was cylon running the entire show, which makes no sense.

So even though from SR it really IS cylon creating everything, and it really is my dad creating everything... and we don't "cancel each other out" because we're really the same consciousness... we just think we are separate.... and we have this feeling that we are separate in order to maintain an illusion.

At this point the word "we" seems to lose all meaning.

It's just that the whole concept of maintaining an illusion, seems to be like a God saying, "you know what would be fun? If I confused myself into thinking I'm a bunch of different people in order to have a blast getting to know myself better."

I doubt that's it though... I think that's just our limited understanding of what consciousness really is... our knee-jerk reaction is to put a face and purpose behind creation. I think that's just the way we choose to understand things. We are people so we imagine whatever "created" this is kind of a person too.

[XeutonMojukai]

Originally Posted by cylon

It's just that the whole concept of maintaining an illusion, seems to be like a God saying, "you know what would be fun? If I confused myself into thinking I'm a bunch of different people in order to have a blast getting to know myself better."

Actually, that's my personal opinion of why God would have created the universe.

Seriously, what better way to stop being lonely?

And if God is everyone and everything at once, then he probably is having a lot of fun doing what everyone is doing...

~ David

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by cylon

"you know what would be fun? If I confused myself into thinking I'm a bunch of different people in order to have a blast getting to know myself better."

Yep, that pretty much sums it up

The hardest part is to accept that you're consciousness first and a human observer second, or at least your true identity is the important one because that's where all the creativity is. Consciousness must be some kind of incredible energy system able to form into anything and to seperate into individual things, that kind of power seems unfathomable and yet here we are The idea that you are consciounsess and you can build and create all sorts of dense stuff is very noodle baking You even created you, the observer, to observe all the other creating you're doing.

Max

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Yep, that pretty much sums it up

The hardest part is to accept that you're consciousness first and a human observer second, or at least your true identity is the important one because that's where all the creativity is. Consciousness must be some kind of incredible energy system able to form into anything and to seperate into individual things, that kind of power seems unfathomable and yet here we are The idea that you are consciounsess and you can build and create all sorts of dense stuff is very noodle baking You even created you, the observer, to observe all the other creating you're doing.

Max

Christ, again right now my dad just said, "It's like what I told you about how our perception is reality"...

I mean c'mon! We never have conversations like that. I didn't actually really respond, just kind of standing there a little taken back.

Well this noodle baking is starting to get fun. That's the point of this stuff, at least as far as I'm concerned... whatever it is it's getting pretty interesting to me!

I think I'm going to step back from worrying about understanding this too much... I am thinking things and they are showing up, I want to see an old movie I haven't seen in years and then it's on tv a few hours later... and it includes the "buzzword" (not a common everyday word) I was hoping to hear someone say that day...

Edit... that's the tough thing for me Max, separating that consciousness is really ME... not some old grandfather figure just playing games. He didn't make me... he is me... and it's not a he anyway, so it's not like he's standing back watching me come to know "Him", I am standing back knowing myself.

D'oh!

[cylon]

Originally Posted by XeutonMojukai

Actually, that's my personal opinion of why God would have created the universe.

Seriously, what better way to stop being lonely?

And if God is everyone and everything at once, then he probably is having a lot of fun doing what everyone is doing...

~ David

I don't disagree with what you're saying really, David...

It's just that from years and years of a religious upbringing, I have thought of God as an actual person (more or less) outside of me, who created me, as separate from himself... but that is what a human would think. We would of course think it was another "human", but it must be a million times more trippy than that.

in any case I'll be re-reading this stuff tomorrow!

[XeutonMojukai]

Cylon:

Here's my advice to understand this.

Watch "What the Bleep do we Know!?"

~ David

[cylon]

I have it!

I actually just loaned it to a co-worker and he returned it to me, he really enjoyed it. I actually discuss this type of thing with him a little... I am learning and sharing. Been thinking of watching it again as a matter of fact.

Funny story: you remember the part where they got into the water crystals (?) forming because of postive thoughts being directed towards them (the japanese scientist/doctor guy)... another co-worker brought those experiments up at a lunch break. We weren't even discussing the movie.

This time around I bet I'll be getting much different things from it.

I have had a few lucid dreams in my life... I am starting to think life is like that. In the lucid dream, you are aware of what you are doing, and what you're creating, then you maybe slip a little or "forget" and become the unknowing character in the drama you're creating... then you come to a little and realize it's your dream and it's you making all the stuff happen.

I feel like my mind is exploding, but in a good way.

[Max Power]

Sometimes in SR land, we'll get everything going really well, we're manifesting well and everything is humming, then for no particular reason at all, it turns into custard really fast, for no obvious reason it's a complete mess.

See, that's the thing about consciousness, it loves the game so much it won't ever let it be boring, so when something really crappy happens, we know we manifested it just like all the good stuff, but now we have to learn why we mainfested the crap and manifest a fix or envoke a cheat.

Consciousness loves this game

Max

[XeutonMojukai]

Max, that is also brought up in WTBDWK, actually...

Every once in a while, everything goes to crap in the main character's life...

and then she realizes just how to solve the problem .

~ David

The most important line in the movie:

"Do I think you're good? No. Do I think you're bad? Of course not. I think you're God."

[XeutonMojukai]

How to Understand Consciousness:

An online video game. How it works:

The individual player sees a finite amount of the game world. Only that part that he can see is actually processed. Everyone else has a similar situation for whatever they are able to view. Everything else is just taken for granted, and kept within the memory of the server.

Players: Us
Server: Consciousness

Yes, the server could exist just as well as a blank server and just sit there content to be a server, without players incarnating inside it and interacting within it.

But that wouldn't be any fun, would it?

Just like in some video games, there are ways to cheat this "reality" into giving you what you want.

Since the system is based on your unconscious computer asking the server for what the conscious player wants, and the server giving it to the unconscious computer to then be given to the player, it is possible to raise your awareness higher (i.e. go higher up the coding chain) and eventually hack out a special thing for you (or someone else).

Some people think of this as martial arts superpowers. Others think of this as casting a spell, others as manifesting an intention.

Regardless, we are all in this video game, and in the end it explains why video games are often a waste of time: life is a video game anyway, so why go further into the world of illusion?

Also, bake your noodle on this: No video game is unlimited in its scope like this universe is. But technically, you can bend the rules there, just like here.

Not only that, but there's actually quite a lot of limitations in this universe, meaning we there is yet another level above this one, where we can bend the rules again.

Think of any dreams you've had, and how they felt a little on-rails unless you were lucid. Remind you of a video game at all?

Maybe we all used to be video game characters of some sort or another before becoming human beings?

Then, start thinking about the potential of upgrading our hardware...

If we are willing to make mental devices (essentially writing our own programs) to assist us in this game, then we will be able to have a very easy time within the multiversal life of mysticism (think a spiritual Internet: just as exciting, just as dangerous, except your real life is on the line).

Have fun!

~ David

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by XeutonMojukai

Max, that is also brought up in WTBDWK, actually...

Every once in a while, everything goes to crap in the main character's life...

and then she realizes just how to solve the problem .

Consciousness loves a challenge and solutions, can't have one without the other

Max

[agnostic]

My view of SR is this: In an absolute sense like "Everything only exists when I believe in it." I don't believe in it. But I think that our beliefs and attitudes play a major part in what we perceive of the world and therefore, they do control part of our subjective reality, that is: the reality we perceive with our brains. But they do so by changing perception, not outer reality.

I think that's what tricks people into believing this. It doesn't make any sense to me, though.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by agnostic

My view of SR is this: In an absolute sense like "Everything only exists when I believe in it." I don't believe in it. But I think that our beliefs and attitudes play a major part in what we perceive of the world and therefore, they do control part of our subjective reality, that is: the reality we perceive with our brains. But they do so by changing perception, not outer reality.

I think that's what tricks people into believing this. It doesn't make any sense to me, though.

People are so attached to their humanity that they will fight to the bitter end to defend it's position. If there is something before being born into humanity and something after that humanity, then that thing must be with us as humanity, therefore humanity if anything is a by product or a manifestation of that thing that is not actually humanity.

There are not tricks involved, you either believe it or you don't, it's hardly a trick and it's only valuable if it's beneficial to the person choosing to believe it.

Max