After creation, then what?

[Cantando]

I would like to offer a slightly differen slant to what Max and InfiniteThoughts, and others, have been saying with regard to creation, etc, in that I think what is equally or more important than creation, is how we control it.
We may create whatever we want, but it's what we choose to focus on and control that matters.
In our personal world/environment, we have created everything, but we don't control everything.
There are things we have forgotten about which we have created and they appear to be independent of our control. There are things that we do not wish to control, as they may be too boring or cost too much effort.
For example, if I am walking along a busy street and cast an eye over all the people coming towards me, I don't automatically think that I would like to consciously control all of them. I just let them be. In fact, there seems to be very little that we actually do control. If you have growing children, who are starting to go off to college or leaving home, you will know what I mean!
We need to be discerning in choosing to control those aspects which enhance our, and our family's and friends' lives. If we control too little (health, finances, relationships, etc), other people and events will quickly start to take charge of us, and our lives will invariably suffer. If we try to control too much, we become selfish manipulators and make those close to us miserable.
There are also times when we have to hand over control and put our trust in others, for example, when we board a plane, or have an operation.
If we observe our thoughts and actions during the day, it seems that what we are mainly doing is deciding what to control, and to what degree.
Creation, then, is what we decide to place in our world. Control is what we decide to do with it. So, ideally, before we create anything, we should bear in mind how we are to use or control it afterwards, i.e., taking full responsibility for what we have created.
I may create a great job, loads of money and a beautiful girlfriend, but if I am not in control to the right degree, then what good is it?
When I open a newspaper and see pictures of rich celebs like Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears, I think to myself - how happy and fulfilled are they really?

[absvan]

I believe that you are not responsible for everything that exists in your reality. As simple example is the case of abusive parents or child who got raped. Though a lot of LOA practitioners say that the child was responsible, they do not offer substantial evidence to back it. Its true that if you dont pay attention to negative news, it wont exist in "your reality". But saying that it does not exist in this universe is a delusion.

When I started thinking about such events, what makes sense to me is that, things are that way for a reason. Why did that happen? Who created it? The truth is nobody has clear answers. They claim this or that is the answer but nothing makes sense. The concept of Karma from previous birth makes a lot of sense here but I dont want to detract the topic here.

In this universe there has to be opposites. There has to be darkness to understand light. You have the power ot create but I dont think you can get anything you wish for. Things are the way it is for your own growth and development....and hence its perfection. Imperfection happens due to denial and resistance. Having said so, I dont mean that you shouldnt care. I did mention that you are not responsible for creating it but I also dont mean you have to blame it on someone else. Its as it is for you to take some action and grow. We can only control our actions and not the outcome.

The Bhagvad Gita says:

Your right is to work only,
But never to its fruits;
Let not the fruits of action be thy motive,
Nor let thy attachment be to inaction.

Hope that makes sense.

[Old Soul]

Though a lot of LOA practitioners say that the child was responsible

totally disagree with that statement, alot of children are born into the hands of abusive parents , they did not chose to be born into those parents

[Old Soul]

I see alot of wisdom in this post and pretty much agree


every day I wake up, I create my day, by chosing what to invest in mentally emotionally and physcially, I never have control over the curve balls which may come at me that day, i just work the day and hopefully apply the same wisdom for the curve balls

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by absvan

I believe that you are not responsible for everything that exists in your reality. As simple example is the case of abusive parents or child who got raped. Though a lot of LOA practitioners say that the child was responsible, they do not offer substantial evidence to back it.

No, I don't think the child is responsible, but there are a lot of Karma believers who do think the child is - payback time for something they did in a previous life. I don't hold with that. No child deserves to suffer.

However, as we grow older and wiser and expand our means of communication, we become more and more aware, and thus responsible, for what does happen in our reality. For example, 30 years ago, you may have felt no responsibility for the plight of the poor in the third world because you weren't particularly aware of them, whereas today, you probably do feel somewhat responsible, to a greater or lesser degree. You do, then, have some control over whether you wish to help them or not.

[infinitethoughts]

Hey Cantando.
Awesome thread !

Originally Posted by Cantando

No, I don't think the child is responsible, but there are a lot of Karma believers who do think the child is - payback time for something they did in a previous life. I don't hold with that. No child deserves to suffer.

The "child" is responsible.

Before you guys start sharpening your axes and hatchets for the inevitable slaughter of Infinitethoughts, let me explain.


The incredible negative experiences that some children experience were 'set up' pre-birth by themselves.
Why?
To mold a 'plot' and to mold their character in the overall life existance that they want to experience.
Why?
To set up 'obstacles' and challenges for them, who are God Beings with self induced amnesia, to overcome.

[absvan]

Originally Posted by Cantando

No, I don't think the child is responsible, but there are a lot of Karma believers who do think the child is - payback time for something they did in a previous life. I don't hold with that. No child deserves to suffer.

Well I did mention that the only explanation could be Karma. The idea that the child attracted that to herself in this life time cannot make sense. But there is more it to if you think deeper? Did the parents of the child had to learn something from this?...or was this an experience for the child ??

Years ago, when my friend was pregnant for the first time, the baby had a heart failure and the pregnancy had to be terminated sometime around the 6th month. So according to Karma, it would be something for my friend to learn in this life time. But what about the baby? Though the baby died in the 6th month, did it mean that the soul of the baby had to learn something or it was there just to teach my friend the experience?

There can be multiple answers but the real answer - Nobody knows it....and all we can do it accept it and understand that we cannot create everything or anything we wish.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Hey Cantando.
The "child" is responsible.

IT, how can the child be responsible if they are not sufficiently aware and able to control what is going on around them, and able to make appropriate decisions? That is why a child is a child and needs parents/guardians until they are old enough to look after themselves. Responsibility comes with awareness.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by absvan

Well I did mention that the only explanation could be Karma.

What about the Christian explanation that the human soul is created at the time of conception, or at least sometime between conception and birth? So, there is no existence before birth, no higher self, no being one with consciousness, no past lives. I'm not saying I believe that, but it's a perfectly valid concept. But, yes, I agree - suffering is a mystery. Karma attempts to explain it, but why should anyone suffer in this life on account of something they have no memory of from a previous life? How can a lesson be possibly learnt from that? It would probably make them go from bad to worse!

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by absvan

I believe that you are not responsible for everything that exists in your reality. As simple example is the case of abusive parents or child who got raped. Though a lot of LOA practitioners say that the child was responsible, they do not offer substantial evidence to back it. Its true that if you dont pay attention to negative news, it wont exist in "your reality". But saying that it does not exist in this universe is a delusion.

A child is raped, a man is shot dead, I watch my mother die, the sun shines, the rain falls, some dick cuts me off in traffic.

Consciousness (I) is responsible for all of it, there is no 'only when it suits me clause' SR doesn't work like that, some other belief systems do, but SR doesn't

Two things to keep in mind.

1. It doesn't make sense to take responsibility for the horror of mankind from the limited mind/body POV, if you do that, the overwhelming feelings of guilt are frightening. How many times have you heard of a horrible story on the news? Now how much horror have you actually seen occur right in front of you physical avatar? There is a difference.

If I cut my hand, it hurts from a physical body POV, but it doesn't hurt from a consciousnes POV. Consciousness doesn't feel, sense emotion, that's the whole point of having a physical avatar/mind/body. A person is brutally killed, it's reported on the news, so I created it, I'm responsible for it, but not in the "I killed that man" POV, but from the "I created that to maintain perception" POV. This may sound uncaring, but consciousness doesn't care, it doesn't emote, that's the point of the physical avatar.

Let's say that right now somewhere in the world someone is being killed, you don't know that so does it matter? No, because it's not in your awareness, it's not made real, it doesn't exist. Now you hear about it on the news and see pictures, does it matter now? Yes, but only on a random background maintining perception level, it's there to maintain the perception. Now someone is killed right in front of you, does it matter? yes, the level of it's importance has risen, for some reason you have created it and made it very personalised, you are doing this for a very specific reason and you can choose to understand that reason or not.

2. How can I be creating everything in my awareness, there's so much of it?" Consciousness creates and maintains a very complex reality. You choose to go outside and walk down the street and to maintain a believable reality, you (not specifically knowingly, but it's still your creation) place random things there, things like people you never speak to, trees, cars, buildings you don't use or interact with. You will choose which random things to interact with and make interactive, but most will stay as random background filler, but it's still all of your creation.

Consciousness is responsible for everything created inside present moment awareness and by choice it places anything it chooses there including a physical avatar/body/mind/human/you to observe it. When you identify with consciousness you can see everything that you create has meaning because you've created it, somethings are vital, some are background filler, but ultimately nothing truly matters except the overall state of consciousness, which is reflected in what you create. Living a good, honest, decent life doesn't make you a better person it makes a better experience for consciousness to experience.

Your entire existance is for the benefit of consciousness, you are completely self centered, not selfish (there's a difference) self centered on creating a enjoyable experience for the experience of consciousness. You can see and sense consciousness when you stop identifying with your physical body, which is only there to sense the enjoyment of creation, but it doesn't create anything, consciousness is the creative source.

Max

[absvan]

Good Questions Cantanado.

Originally Posted by Cantando

What about the Christian explanation that the human soul is created at the time of conception, or at least sometime between conception and birth? So, there is no existence before birth, no higher self, no being one with consciousness, no past lives. )

I dont believe in the Christian explanation - I dont mean to say its fake or anything like that but it does not make any sense to me at all esp the concept of heaven and hell. I cant believe that according to Christianity Gandhi goes to Hell

Originally Posted by Cantando

Karma attempts to explain it, but why should anyone suffer in this life on account of something they have no memory of from a previous life? How can a lesson be possibly learnt from that? It would probably make them go from bad to worse!

Its the soul the is born again and not the body/mind. Rebirth is the soul in a new body. However, the whole concenpt of Karma, rebirth etc exists to create the playground/illusion for the soul to learn, grow and merge with consciousness - Oneness. Check this link out Karma, Reincarnation ,Nonduality and Spirit

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Cantando

IT, how can the child be responsible if they are not sufficiently aware and able to control what is going on around them, and able to make appropriate decisions? That is why a child is a child and needs parents/guardians until they are old enough to look after themselves. Responsibility comes with awareness.

Cantando. I already answered the question !
My entire being is minimalist action and extreme efficiency in speech.
I hate wasted spaces.


So here's a cut a paste of what I said on my last post;

"The incredible negative experiences that some children experience were 'set up' pre-birth by themselves.
Why?
To mold a 'plot' and to mold their character in the overall life existance that they want to experience.
Why?
To set up 'obstacles' and challenges for them, who are God Beings with self induced amnesia, to overcome."

[Akashic_Librarian]

Once again Max is right haha. If he hadn't of got there first, i would have said basically what he did.

Whether you want to believe it or not. These bad things happened because YOU intended it to. Not the child. Not the Parents. Not the Dick that cut you off. YOU create everything that happens...ohh just read Max's Post...

*sighs*

@Max...you gonna let me get a few answers in? Haha

[absvan]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Once again Max is right haha. If he hadn't of got there first, i would have said basically what he did.

Whether you want to believe it or not. These bad things happened because YOU intended it to. Not the child. Not the Parents. Not the Dick that cut you off. YOU create everything that happens...ohh just read Max's Post...

*sighs*

@Max...you gonna let me get a few answers in? Haha

The version of SR where you are the only person who is conscious and everybody else are only bodies walking around originated in this forum. If you follow that version, then you are right in saying that you are responsible for everything happening.

The version of Nonduality that I have learned from the east where it is called Advaita says that only consciousness is conscious and all bodies/mind running around "derive" (not sure if that is the right word) consciousness from it or in other words ego consciousness.

I am not saying that Steve's version of SR is wrong. In the end its a belief system and you should follow what makes sense. However saying that only your version is the truth and everything else is false can also be a delusion.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by absvan

The version of SR where you are the only person who is conscious and everybody else are only bodies walking around originated in this forum. If you follow that version, then you are right in saying that you are responsible for everything happening.

The version of Nonduality that I have learned from the east where it is called Advaita says that only consciousness is conscious and all bodies/mind running around "derive" (not sure if that is the right word) consciousness from it or in other words ego consciousness.

I am not saying that Steve's version of SR is wrong. In the end its a belief system and you should follow what makes sense. However saying that only your version is the truth and everything else is false can also be a delusion.

I could be completely wrong, but Steve has said on multiple occasions that the belief that you are the only person walking around and everybody else is just a bunch of mindless robots is not the version of subjective reality he subscribes to. That is called solipsism. Max's version of subjective reality is closer to Steve's, where he identifies with consciousness itself apart from the body POV.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

@Max...you gonna let me get a few answers in? Haha

No AL Never! Just kidding, just keep them simple, my brain hurts when people write 4000 words unparagraphed

Max

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

I could be completely wrong, but Steve has said on multiple occasions that the belief that you are the only person walking around and everybody else is just a bunch of mindless robots is not the version of subjective reality he subscribes to. That is called solipsism. Max's version of subjective reality is closer to Steve's, where he identifies with consciousness itself apart from the body POV.

In SR (the version I subscribe to) no person is conscious including the person (observer) who may claim he is consciousness. If I say or believe I'm consciousness that means I create everything in my present moment awareness including Max Power's body to observe all the creation.

The real issue with understanding SR is placing your real identity with or as consciousness and observing the body you observe through as an observation point to observe creation. When you can identify with consciousness it's very empowering for you can observe everything that you (consciousness) is creating. Another important point with SR is that if consiousness isn't aware of it, then it doesn't exist. A tree falling in the forest, would anyone hear it? In the SR belief system, unless consciousness through the observer is there to observe it, there is no tree and there is no forest.

Max

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Cantando. I already answered the question !
My entire being is minimalist action and extreme efficiency in speech.
I hate wasted spaces.

IT, isn't that a limiting belief?

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

To set up 'obstacles' and challenges for them, who are God Beings with self induced amnesia, to overcome."
[/I]

IT, if I am already a God being, I must be perfect, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, so why would I need to bother with obstacles and challenges and trivial choices like having a body?

After we create something, the ball starts rolling and things develop and change. I don't think I am consciously creating every single detail that develops as a result, but there are things I can still control.

For example, I over sleep and get up late. The scene is then set for the rest of the day. I miss breakfast, I miss the train, I miss the crucial meeting, lose the sale, and lose my job.

Now, if I have sufficient control and awareness, I may be able to turn the meeting around and not lose the sale. So, the more aware and in control I am, the more I can make things happen my way.
Or, I may lose my job, sink into depression, become an alcoholic and kill myself.

Now, IT seems to be saying that I/higher self/consciousness decided before this life to let this happen as a kind of challenge. But why? I see the challenge as a brand new one, at the point of going in late into the meeting and deciding to turn things around.
That conforms more with what Tony Robbins talks about and also what Max describes in making a conscious decision now and knowing/believing it will happen.

I don't need to believe in karma, past lives or being one with big brother consciousness, who's got all these challenges and pitfalls stretched out ahead of me like some kind of obstacle course. I am not Pavlov's dog. I am as I am in this moment, that is my consciousness, and I decide in what direction I choose to move it.

I appreciate methods of self help and improvement, but I don't think it is at all necessary to have any kind of belief in karma or past lives or cosmic consciousness. The main thrust of these beliefs seems to be that we are here to play and enjoy ourselves. I ask myself - why? Why would I want to play and enjoy myself all the time? If you keep questioning, these beliefs soon start to fall apart.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Cantando

IT, isn't that a limiting belief?


IT, if I am already a God being, I must be perfect, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, so why would I need to bother with obstacles and challenges and trivial choices like having a body?

Indeed, why bother? If I, we, you are the one, the one consiousness, the one power, not shared, not collective, but the true one godlike being, then why go to all the trouble and challenge of a physical reality.

This is how I see it........consciousness/god/universal being is perfect. It must be perfect to have that much power, how can it know it's perfect? it creates imperfection to sense itself, to know itself better and to maybe even see itself for what it truly is. That created imperfection is physical reality, everything in it and an observer to observe it all.

By creating such imperfection consciousness now knows what it is, perfect, timeless and forever.

Works for me

Max

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Max Power

.....consciousness/god/universal being is perfect. It must be perfect to have that much power, how can it know it's perfect? it creates imperfection to sense itself, to know itself better and to maybe even see itself for what it truly is. That created imperfection is physical reality, everything in it and an observer to observe it all.

But, if consciousness/god/universal being is omniscient, he already knows himself completely and thus knows he is perfect! The desire to create the imperfect would presuppose he was bored or dissatisfied in some way with his current state which would mean he was imperfect. I think that is a philosophical conundrum which can't really be answered.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Cantando

But, if consciousness/god/universal being is omniscient, he already knows himself completely and thus knows he is perfect! The desire to create the imperfect would presuppose he was bored or dissatisfied in some way with his current state which would mean he was imperfect. I think that is a philosophical conundrum which can't really be answered.

Could it really be as simple as the powerful thing imaginable just got bored? That would not surprise me one bit On some level surely god like powers must get boring, imagine being able to create anything at anytime, that must become uninteresting pretty fast.

You're right CT, there's no way to know, whatever floats your boat I suppose

Max

[absvan]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

I could be completely wrong, but Steve has said on multiple occasions that the belief that you are the only person walking around and everybody else is just a bunch of mindless robots is not the version of subjective reality he subscribes to. That is called solipsism. Max's version of subjective reality is closer to Steve's, where he identifies with consciousness itself apart from the body POV.

I agree and thats what I believe about SR too. Everything you see that we call an illusion was created by Consciousness (caps C).

What about all the wars, murders, diseases?? I say that those were created by ego consciousness. So the question would be who created ego consciousness?? I would say its again Consciousness.

Consciousness created the illusion/ego consciousness for us to grow and realize our true nature. Instead we created wars, murders, greed etc etc.....so its upto human/ego consciousness collectively to fix the problems on earth and so created the cycle of birth-death, Karma, LOA and other laws. Karma isnt a person sitting somewhere and watching us. Its the law of energy. To use energy you have to give out energy and if you give out energy then you get energy.

The only way to break free from the cycle to rebirth, death and Karma is by merging with consciousness which is what Nonduality/SR/Advaita talks about. Atleast this is what makes sense to me.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Could it really be as simple as the powerful thing imaginable just got bored? That would not surprise me one bit On some level surely god like powers must get boring, imagine being able to create anything at anytime, that must become uninteresting pretty fast.

You're right CT, there's no way to know, whatever floats your boat I suppose

Max

I've always had a problem with believing that an all powerful being would just get bored. Think about it. ALL POWER. Infinite bliss. Infinite contentment. I don't think an all powerful being would ever get bored, let alone ever develop any disposition for any particular and specific creation. What was created first -- the [insert creation] or the [insert creation]? Creation assumes a linear sequence of events. What is the stimulus for choosing at a such a level, where one "thing" is just a good as another "thing". And make no mistake, all creations are "things". I think reality must exist for some other reason. I think we are a part of the infinite continuum of knowing. Mind/Consciousness just knowing what this probability would be like creates the experience and reality. The perfect knowing of an experience is indistinguishable from the experience itself.

To know the ideals of Separation, Limitation, and Lack is to be them. In the reality of Separation, there is duality where, before, there was only Oneness. Duality creates the illusion of action, because Observer interacts with Observed endlessly, until either absolute Separation (negative polarization) or absolute Unification (positive polarization) is achieved. Absolute Separation involves literally dispersing into matter. In such a case, you become the "Legos" for Logos whom have achieved a more positive polarization. Negative polarization reduces free will, and what has less free will than the level of specific form?

On the other side of the coin, if you choose to continuously increase your awareness, you are performing the act of remembering what you already know subconsciously and are thus reunifying with pieces of yourself you projected outward from your conscious self. Knowledge literally does equal power. The more knowledge you have the more you get to choose, and the less you will limited by the level of form. Might be awhile before you can actually transcend it though. But then, time doesn't really exist anyway so you might as well start up the mountain. It doesn't matter how long or short it is getting to the top, you just have to get there, and the only way to do that is to keep placing one foot in front of the other.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by absvan

I agree and thats what I believe about SR too. Everything you see that we call an illusion was created by Consciousness (caps C).

What about all the wars, murders, diseases?? I say that those were created by ego consciousness. So the question would be who created ego consciousness?? I would say its again Consciousness.

Yes!!! Exactly. In fact, Ego is all about Separation. Ego wants to feel special. Ego wants some "things" to be better than other "things". It LOVES separation, or more accurately, it FEARS Unification. It wants the Elite to exist. It wants us to spiritualize specific "things" in our reality, like churches, people, and physical objects, because as long as it does, it is still able to escape the reality of Unification. The ego embodies all that is false and is the path of evolution towards the sleeping half of Intelligent Infinity.

[Akashic_Librarian]

But if you think about it. Having EVERYTHING is like having nothing.

If you could have everything, then you really have nothing, because to HAVE something, is to compare to having nothing, when you HAVE everything you don't technically have everything because that would imply there was something else and I am typing so fast right now that I can't even see my fingers move, I am not even thinking about it.

*Breathes...reviews what has just been typed*

Infinity is hypothetical. Its a concept. I can't comprehend infinity and neither can you. I can't touch it. Yet, I do...everyday. Hows that for a mind-job.

"Ohh whats really gonna bake your noodle later on is would you still have broken it, if i hadn't said anything"

Hows that for a conundrum?

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

But if you think about it. Having EVERYTHING is like having nothing.

Correct. Welcome back from Duality!

[infinitethoughts]

Boredom and The Lands of Instant Thought.

Quick answer.

Go watch movie What Dreams May Come.
When you die and before birth, this is where you live, The Lands of Instant Thought.

The Game of Physicality was created, by us, in order to have the experiences of not living in the The Lands of Instant Thought.

Simple.

[Cantando]

Maybe, creation is the easy part. But what is not so easy, is how we deal with the effects of not only our own creations, but other people's creations.
Creation starts the ball rolling, causing various knock-on effects which we may not be aware of.

All of us are creating, dropping our stones into the pool and creating ripples which go out and meet other people's ripples, to produce more effects.
I agree with a lot of what Max says, but it does not take into account how we deal with others' 'incoming ripples'.

Today, I may create 'going to a concert this evening'. I form a very strong intention to go to it. I start to make the journey to the venue. Suddenly, I get a phone call to say someone is ill. I then cancel the concert. OK, I may have 'created' the phone call, but it is still coming in from someone else who has started that particular ball rolling. What matters is, then, how I deal with and control other people's incoming effects (as well as my own).

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Cantando

I agree with a lot of what Max says, but it does not take into account how we deal with others' 'incoming ripples'.

Well Max is gonna rip me a new one............
Lol.......................!


But this is the way I see it.
We are all infinite.
Literally !

So when interacting with another, you choose that version of them (because they are infinite) to interact with.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Cantando

All of us are creating, dropping our stones into the pool and creating ripples which go out and meet other people's ripples, to produce more effects.
I agree with a lot of what Max says, but it does not take into account how we deal with others' 'incoming ripples'.

You can see others as yourself or not yourself, but realize the underlying consciousness is the same and is organizing all this activity in some unfathomable fashion. If someone comes into your experience it is because you've chosen it. You will not cross ripples with someone else unless you've made space for it internally. This meeting of ripples can be conscious, but mostly it is unconscious creation going on.

Originally Posted by Cantando

What matters is, then, how I deal with and control other people's incoming effects (as well as my own).

hehe, now that's your mind talking. It wants to control the creation. As much as it thinks it directs what's going on it will still be met with the soul's intent to experience and grow. It's efforts to keep away things that make you uncomfortable will soon be short-circuited by soul's intent to grow. You need to add more consciousness to your day, not strategies to control what happens.