Choice V Thought

[Max Power]

A thought implies thinking and that's fine to validate the choices you make, but thoughts don't create and in fact thought can also imply opposites like a happy thought, a sad thought, a thought of being rich and a thought of not being rich.

So if you use thought to create you will always have to deal with the opposite of that thought. You say "I think I have a million dollars" but what you should say is "I know I have a million dollars" or "I choose to have a million dollars"

Thought goes hand in hand with emotion (again not creative, just for validating) so you would think you have a million dollars and the thoughts may be of the joy (joyful thoughts) of having the million dollars, but again as long as you use thought to create (it doesn't anyway, but you think it does) you will always at some stage suffer opposite thoughts that undermine your good thoughts. No one can have happy thoughts 24/7.

Now choice (or knowing to be more precise) does not suffer from an opposite and that is why it is the creative force behind creation. Choice manifests and then thought validates. You choose everything in your life and it manifests, then you cycle through all the thoughts to validate and accept the choice.

I drone on a lot about choice and thought, because I want to simplfy the creativity and thoughts mostly just get in the way. Choice is knowing, choice does not need thought to create, to validate, sure, but not create.

If you want to create better, then cast aside thought until you need it to validate the creation. Does this mean you turn into some emotionless thoughtless zombie? Actually it's the opposite. If you free up the creative flow by just deciding, just choosing, just knowing it to be so and leave thought and emotion out of it, you'll speed up the manifestation process and be a more stable physical being because all the creating is being taken care of by choice.

I think that's right.

Max

[BlaqueAngel]

what a great post

thank you for this

[torilink]

I know I drone on about this but...., thought validates only when we are reacting to a creation/choice. If we are looking back - looking at what is in relation to what we choose, thought and emotion validate our choice.

when we make a proactive choice with no regard to the "Past", but choosing a new independent creation, thought and emotion are facilitator's (choice in action).

I follow you Max that if for instance I believe I am $20,000. in debt and am attempting to focus thought on not being in debt - all my thoughts regardless of positive or negative validate debt as reality.

Instead, I need to get to the point of choosing abundance as the only reality, regardless of appearances.

If I AM AWARE that what was, is not, and I choose my reality in each moment, then I am free of even needing to expend thought on debt at all. Instead, I choose wealth and abundance. Through this choice I create that wealth and abundance (it is the choice that creates), but... then imagining myself within that currant state of abundance and wealth and feeling the emotion of residing within that state of being, facilitate's (brings choice into a state of action/reality) manifestation.

That state of being is a choice, but is facilitated through images (thought) and feeling.


I agree it would be wonderful if we could all INTENTIONALLY manifest each moment simply through choice (putting aside thought/feeling), although it may be possible (??), it is not necessarily within everyones currant capacity to do so. Those who aren't as far on their path may need to utilize imagination and feeling as facilitator's to not only manifest but to build belief and awareness as to what/who they are.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Max Power

A thought implies thinking and that's fine to validate the choices you make, but thoughts don't create and in fact thought can also imply opposites like a happy thought, a sad thought, a thought of being rich and a thought of not being rich.

So if you use thought to create you will always have to deal with the opposite of that thought. You say "I think I have a million dollars" but what you should say is "I know I have a million dollars" or "I choose to have a million dollars"

creative thought is imagination - there should be no thought in terms of words to one's self, but instead a mental image of your choice, with you residing within the chosen state of being.

Thought goes hand in hand with emotion (again not creative, just for validating) so you would think you have a million dollars and the thoughts may be of the joy (joyful thoughts) of having the million dollars, but again as long as you use thought to create (it doesn't anyway, but you think it does) you will always at some stage suffer opposite thoughts that undermine your good thoughts. No one can have happy thoughts 24/7.

I think this entirely is dependent upon your focus, if it is on the past as reality, then this is true, if you are only expending thought on your choice through imagination that your choice is, then it is not necessarily susceptible to suffering. Thought when reactive is susceptible to suffering, when proactive not necessarily.

Now choice (or knowing to be more precise) does not suffer from an opposite and that is why it is the creative force behind creation. Choice manifests and then thought validates. You choose everything in your life and it manifests, then you cycle through all the thoughts to validate and accept the choice.

yes, this is reactive - the way most of us do it, but there is another way to use thought/imagination and feeling.

I drone on a lot about choice and thought, because I want to simplfy the creativity and thoughts mostly just get in the way. Choice is knowing, choice does not need thought to create, to validate, sure, but not create.

If you want to create better, then cast aside thought until you need it to validate the creation. Does this mean you turn into some emotionless thoughtless zombie? Actually it's the opposite. If you free up the creative flow by just deciding, just choosing, just knowing it to be so and leave thought and emotion out of it, you'll speed up the manifestation process and be a more stable physical being because all the creating is being taken care of by choice.

I think that's right.

Max

you have found a way to end thought? I have not. I find that I do need to take the proactive approach and utilize thought in the form of imagination to manifest most of the time.

we are always thinking of something, it can either be reactive or proactive to creation.

[jdiddy]

Originally Posted by Max Power

If you want to create better, then cast aside thought until you need it to validate the creation. Does this mean you turn into some emotionless thoughtless zombie? Actually it's the opposite. If you free up the creative flow by just deciding, just choosing, just knowing it to be so and leave thought and emotion out of it, you'll speed up the manifestation process and be a more stable physical being because all the creating is being taken care of by choice.
Max

This is really good stuff Max. I've arrived at the same conclusion, that choice is the ultimate decision-maker on reality, and the other stuff is just our reaction to it. Although it sounds so simple, it's really quite difficult to do in practice.

I used to be all caught up in the LOA stuff until I realized that it really the instant when I would make a choice that things would begin to manifest, not while I was thinking about it or how great it would be to have it. In my experience, all that stuff serves to do is HELP to make the DECISION. In other words, when I decided I wanted to be a millionaire, there was a lot of internal resistance I had to work through before I could decide *I will be a millionaire*. Things like doubt that it could actually happen, potential guilt, feelings that I wouldn't know how to handle it--all pretty menial stuff but it all stood in the way of my being able to just make the choice and let it go.

See from my point of view, the LOA is a useful tool that serves to get you through your personal roadblocks and get you to the point where you can quickly, easily, and FREELY make decisions. It's a tool that I personally used to break down a lot of limiting beliefs and emotions that were keeping me from freely making choices, by forcing me to think about what I wanted and why I *could* have it.

For me though, what's interesting is that now I've gone down that road I no longer need to. That work has been done, and so I no longer need the LOA stuff. Sounds a lot like what you're going thru Max. It's a very odd experience, for me at least, to decide something and just know it's going to happen. Not even just money and material things. Like, I'll decide it would be nice if it rained and bam, sure enough, it shortly starts raining. Very interesting, in fact I think I'll start another thread about it because I'd like to talk about it but don't want to take your thread off-topic.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by torilink

we are always thinking of something, it can either be reactive or proactive to creation.

Not necessarily.

Do this.

I call it Empty the Trash, it's Full ! Sutra.
You gotta empty it first so you can put more goodies in there.

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

[torilink]

ok, I think this is a repetition of what I said, when we let go of the past, and see what was, isn't - that is the cleansing, emptying or whatever we choose to call it.

how long can you sustain the emptiness during this exercise?

this is what I meant - we cannot sustain a state of no thought - we can empty or flush the past away and then create what we choose to occupy it NOW, but certainly we cannot sustain a state empty of any thought.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by torilink

how long can you sustain the emptiness during this exercise?

Well thats not the point of the exercise.
The point is to see what you are and seeing this, 'plug' in anything you want to be.

[torilink]

yes, I understand what the exercise is for.

my point was that when Max said, "If you want to create better, then cast aside thought until you need it to validate the creation. "

I was pointing out that this cannot be sustained, it may be possible at the moment of choice, but then thought comes back into the equation - then it either validates (perception) or facilitates (imagination) the creation/choice.

I was simply pointing out that in the absence of my ability to live without thought, i choose to utilize it in the form of imagination to facilitate manifestation of my creations.

[sranganayaki]

There are two basic powers of Consciousness: the power to know and the power to will. In Mind there two powers express as understanding and deciding. They are complements. Understanding expresses through thought. Decision expressions through choice. Understanding presents the options. Decision selects or wills which option to manifest.
It is true that mind’s thought is ignorant and limited and therefore its exercise of choice is limited too. But mind is capable of receiving and accepted higher truths of consciousness and acting on that basis.

It is true that thought does hand and in hand with emotion, but so does will. Emotions are willed-thoughts which are endorsed by the subconscious, in which the knowledge portion has become involved or subconscious and we are mainly conscious only of the energy or will aspect.
If you abandon thought, you have to replace it with a higher way of knowing. Otherwise will becomes blind.
The best approach is to recognize the limitations of thought and reject the confining perspective it presents. Give up faith in thought. Then what to replace it with? Replace it with silence. Silence in the mind is a higher way of knowing than thinking. When children learn to read they often read aloud, because otherwise they are not sure they are comprehending what they see. Thinking is the same way. When the mind becomes silent, it still exercises the capacity for knowledge, but knowledge that is not limited by the linearity and physicality of our thinking. Silence is a higher power of knowing. For more on silence, see http://humanscience.wikia.com/wiki/Energy_accomplishes, http://humanscience.wikia.com/wiki/Silent_Will

[torilink]

thanks for the link - and insight.

this may be link to my understanding exactly what MAX meant, it is certainly within my ability to engage in knowing much more than non-thought.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by torilink

my point was that when Max said, "If you want to create better, then cast aside thought until you need it to validate the creation. "

It's the overlaid process of thought on top of choice that is a perception that thought creates. I define thought as something that can be created and have an opposite. I think happy, I think sad, but choice creates the thoughts and there is no opposite of choice that's why it is the creative power of the entire experience.

You only need to cast aside thought if you want to create better. You can still have all the thoughts you like, thoughts are good things for they validate, but they disguise true creative power.

All the PD gurus say the same thing, you must think as if it's real now, even if you put a time frame on it's manifestation, think as if it's real now. But what you're really doing here is choosing for it to be so, right now and then layering thought on top of it to validate choice.

You choose it and then think about it to validate it, the thoughts keep validating it and if that's the way you prefer to create, then that's fine, but you can make a simple choice and it will manifest just as a simple choice with lots of thought on top will also manifest.

The thing I do not like about thought in the manifestation process is that no matter how well you can focus thought, you will always at some stage suffer opposite thoughts that can undermine the whole process. When you make a choice and know it, there can never be an opposite, the choice is made, it's done. If the choice doesn't manifest, then you didn't actually choose it, you chose something else.

The whole point of this is to simplify the manifestation process. How many thoughts do we have a day? 50,000? They do not all manifest into physical reality because they do not create, they are creations to validate choice.

That's how I see it, works for me

Max

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Max Power

It's the overlaid process of thought on top of choice that is a perception that thought creates.

Max, I agree with you that choice is the creating factor.
However, there is something needed BEFORE we can make a choice:
You can only make a choice if there is enough information about the topic of your choice in your mind.

An example: how can you choose to win the Ironman triathlon if you even don't know what a triathlon is?...

So, you can only choose on basis of the information you have.
This information is stored in your mind and you access this information through your thoughts, so it's obvious that thoughts are needed to make a choice. Do you agree?

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Frans

Max, I agree with you that choice is the creating factor.
However, there is something needed BEFORE we can make a choice:
You can only make a choice if there is enough information about the topic of your choice in your mind.

An example: how can you choose to win the Ironman triathlon if you even don't know what a triathlon is?...

So, you can only choose on basis of the information you have.
This information is stored in your mind and you access this information through your thoughts, so it's obvious that thoughts are needed to make a choice. Do you agree?

FR, thoughts are of course important. All I've ever said about them is that they don't create, but they are important to validate. Thoughts are good to see all the options, but choice makes the reality, makes the thing you want manifest, thoughts will validate the lack of something, will inform of the available options, but it's the choice that makes it real.

Now some people might say "I don't have to make a choice, I'll just think about it all the time and it will manifest" but that doesn't always happen, you can think and think and use focused thought and it could still not manifest, so thought really can't be the creative source.

Thoughts are also unreliable to create with as every thought can have an opposite, so no matter how many happy thoughts you have, you are bound to experience the opposite, unhappy thoughts and they can undermine the perception that thought creates. Choice doesn't have an opposite, it just is, so to make a choice, is to decide and know that it is so.

Max

[Frans]

Max, nice reply, but you didn't answer my question

You can only make a choice if there is enough information about the topic of your choice in your mind.

An example: how can you choose to win the Ironman triathlon if you even don't know what a triathlon is?...

So, you can only choose on basis of the information you have.
This information is stored in your mind and you access this information through your thoughts, so it's obvious that thoughts are needed to make a choice.

Do you agree?...

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Frans

Max, nice reply, but you didn't answer my question



Do you agree?...

FR, hmmm, I'll have to think about it and get back to you

Max

[Cantando]

When I was discussing this with Max in earlier posts, I said (and I still think it holds) that the process was:
1. You decide/choose to change or be/do/have something.
2. You then create possibilities in your mind, and play them out, comparing and contrasting them.
3. You then decide/choose which possibility you want to manifest in reality.
4. You create a plan to unfold this possibility in time and reality.

I think Max's idea is to do away with step 4.
So, for example, Step 1 may be the choice/decision to have a new car. But you must then progress to Step 3 where you choose from the available possibilities/choices.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Cantando

When I was discussing this with Max in earlier posts, I said (and I still think it holds) that the process was:
1. You decide/choose to change or be/do/have something.
2. You then create possibilities in your mind, and play them out, comparing and contrasting them.
3. You then decide/choose which possibility you want to manifest in reality.
4. You create a plan to unfold this possibility in time and reality.

I think Max's idea is to do away with step 4.
So, for example, Step 1 may be the choice/decision to have a new car. But you must then progress to Step 3 where you choose from the available possibilities/choices.

CT, good step by step breakdown. As you know I just want it all to be really simple and as easy as possible. Remember we are constantly playing a game of power and denial, so ideally it would be

1. Make a choice (at the primal consciousness level)
2. Get out of the way (carry on observing, knowing the choice is so)
3. Manifestation (final observation of output)

We as physical beings, I consider don't actually do any real creating, we observe only and enjoy the output, real power is consciousness, real power is choice, it's a primal knowing on the most basic of levels, but as the game is dependent on a level of denial, we must envoke all the points that maintain the denial, like believing our thoughts are doing the creating, believing that emotion helps manifestation.

I don't ever want to complicate the manifestation process, too me it's already overly complex, so we must try to simplify, we must strip away as much denial as possible (we'll never get rid of it all, that's not the point) but we must allow ourselves to be better creators to improve ourselves, to improve consciousness and that's good for all of us


Max

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Frans

Max, nice reply, but you didn't answer my question
Do you agree?...

FR, I can't really accept that thoughts are creative, it just doesn't gel for me. I'm having thousands of thoughts a day, not all of them manifest (actually I don't think any of them do) but how many choices do I make?

I choose to get up in the morning, I choose to go to work, I choose to eat a sandwich, I choose to have money and love and whatever. I don't think those things into being, I use thought to validate them as coming into existance, but thought doesn't make things happen.

None of this is helpful unless it helps us create better. If anyone wants to say their thoughts are creative, that's fine, but I want to create better, faster and more effectively and that means simplifying the process, which means understanding how things manifest on the simpliest of levels.

Fundamental decisions are choices to run the reality, to create the perception, thoughts and emotions are validators of all creation, but they don't create. This is just my thought (choice actually) to aid in me being a better creator.

Max

[lemmex]

A very good post of how the process works. Though it’s interesting you pick the priority of the physical and material world (attachment) in your analogy which keeps us in a suffering state to the material plane, the attachment frame and the spiritual require opposite views. Do you think the same approach works?

Your point “thought” goes hand in hand with “emotion” is striking and entirely correct, and I think you can say, not that thought validates choice but people do, so we can use them interchangeably simply because thought is a projection of us. True thought has no identity, it’s void, we give meaning. Even if you think thoughts don’t create they began the manifestation process of choice in this (real) world. In a sense we create.

I think validation is very important as a part of thought because it’s an element of a total whole that exists just as you have describe, that nothing exists by itself. In the outcome of act (choice) doing without guidance of thought begs what if choice creates chaos. Validation has to be part of this equation simply because as people can do horrible things as we know. We are creatures tied to emotion and it is part of logic.

I agree with the process and wish I could totally agree, but it is the fact thought implies opposites is very important (to us) because choices, actions, or what ever we want to call them aren’t neutral. Validation does not need to paralyze us in any way and maybe we should reflect deeper and even seek advice when troubled. I’m guessing we aren’t suppose to exclude morals and this post applies if we knew ourselves fully. There can be no shortcut to choice.

BTY Max, happy or sad thoughts are not thoughts but emotions, they are also states. Thoughts tends not to be long lasting but states are and we tend to operate from states, that is they influence thoughts. I think you’re saying disregard them…impossibly hard.

A very fine post.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Max Power

FR, I can't really accept that thoughts are creative, it just doesn't gel for me. I'm having thousands of thoughts a day, not all of them manifest (actually I don't think any of them do) but how many choices do I make?

Max, you know very well that I never have said that thoughts are creative.
I even agree with you that choice is the creating force.
So, once again, you gave an answer to a question I didn't pose.

Why are you afraid to give a straight answer to my question?
Are you afraid that by answering "yes", you have to review your container theory?

So, I repeat:

You can only make a choice if there is enough information about the topic of your choice in your mind.

An example: how can you choose to win the Ironman triathlon if you even don't know what a triathlon is?...

So, you can only choose on basis of the information you have.
This information is stored in your mind and you access this information through your thoughts, so it's obvious that thoughts are needed to make a choice.

Do you agree?...

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Frans

So, it's obvious that thoughts are needed to make a choice. Do you agree?

Sorry Frans, you're right, I didn't answer your question directly

The answer is no, thoughts are not needed to make a choice. All thoughts are creations themselves and are not creative. They are simply validators. What is a thought? It is output, it is created as output to identify something as is emotion.

Choice is different, choice decides, choice creates, choice knows.

People can stack thought and emotion on top of choice all day long, but it won't alter the undeniable truth, choice creates everything including thought and emotion. If you want to tap into creation better, tap straight into choice, that's where all the power is.

Just my opinion, could be wrong, but I doubt it

Max

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by lemmex

A very good post of how the process works. Though it’s interesting you pick the priority of the physical and material world (attachment) in your analogy which keeps us in a suffering state to the material plane, the attachment frame and the spiritual require opposite views. Do you think the same approach works?

I do not see a choice to expereince a physical reality as suffering, that to me is some kind of mystic denial of desire.

Your point “thought” goes hand in hand with “emotion” is striking and entirely correct, and I think you can say, not that thought validates choice but people do,

People are creations themselves and do very little except observe.

BTY Max, happy or sad thoughts are not thoughts but emotions, they are also states.

To think is to consider, to consider implies an opposite component and that component is doubt. Emotion is thought through the senses.

Thoughts tends not to be long lasting but states are and we tend to operate from states, that is they influence thoughts.

A state is a continuation of thought, massive constant thought is a state but is still created by choice.

I think you’re saying disregard them…impossibly hard.

No, I'm not saying disregard anything, what I'm saying is shortcut the manifestation process, by limiting or stopping thought and emotion, they do not create for they are creations themselves. Thoughts are wonderful, but they are just validators.

A very fine post.

Thank you, I enjoyed your points for they help me clarify things for myself

Max

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by jdiddy

For me though, what's interesting is that now I've gone down that road I no longer need to. That work has been done, and so I no longer need the LOA stuff. Sounds a lot like what you're going thru Max. It's a very odd experience, for me at least, to decide something and just know it's going to happen. Not even just money and material things. Like, I'll decide it would be nice if it rained and bam, sure enough, it shortly starts raining. Very interesting, in fact I think I'll start another thread about it because I'd like to talk about it but don't want to take your thread off-topic.

JD, well said and spot on, it's all about freeing the creative power from the bonds of denial, it's an odd, scary, wonderful sensation.

Max

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Max Power

What is a thought? It is output, it is created as output to identify something as is emotion.

Max, how do you explain the flash of insight you get when you suddenly and unexpectedly find the solution for a complicated problem?
Do you consider that thought output or input?...

Added:
I mean from the POV of Max Power, not consciousness.

[Tobias Zimpel]

Hi Max,

could be that I'm thinking too linear, but I don't seem to get it.

Originally Posted by Max Power

If you want to create better, then cast aside thought until you need it to validate the creation. Does this mean you turn into some emotionless thoughtless zombie? Actually it's the opposite. If you free up the creative flow by just deciding, just choosing, just knowing it to be so and leave thought and emotion out of it, you'll speed up the manifestation process and be a more stable physical being because all the creating is being taken care of by choice.

Sure choice creates, knowing that it will happen no matter what, and no force of the universe can stop it to happen.

But to people with a dirrent mindset, these statements always sound like one could put ones body on some throne, say "make it so", and everything happens without his or her body moving a single inch.

From your perspective what you say makes perfect sense, but try to say it in a way as to guide others to your perspective.

I can only guess that by "I", you mean not your physical body, but something like consciousness itself, and a manifestation that happens through action of your body is as effortless to you as if someone else or some mystic energy brought it to you.

I say it again: IF you have the skills, everything is easy, and just that it is as simple as 1+1, it doesn't mean that it's easy.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Tobias Zimpel

Hi Max, From your perspective what you say makes perfect sense, but try to say it in a way as to guide others to your perspective.

TZ,

I look at my existance through the SR POV.

Let's simplify to grasp it.

Consciousness is playing a cunning game (the ultimate game) of denial.

Consciousness has chosen to have this physical reality, has chosen to limit it's power and chosen to experience all the physical reality as well as all it's self imposed limitations.

How does that help me? How does that help you?

This is the hard part.....Consciousness is so very clever to create all this that it actually creates you and me. Consciousness is not human, so there really is no you or me, there is just consciousness and here comes the absolute noodle baker.......there is only one observer.

Max

[Tobias Zimpel]

Originally Posted by Max Power

I look at my existance through the SR POV.

But those to whom you explain, might not. That's why discussions about creation tend to be absolutely pointless, and leads to the most common misunderstandings about the whole matter.

When you say "I", most readers will think you talk about your physical, thinking, feeling body, as long as you don't tell them what you mean when you say "I" from their perspective.

What I mean is: Pick them up where they are, and not where you are - and then lead them, so they can follow you to what you want to show them - and do everything to ensure they don't get lost on the way. Show them not the goal, but a way to get there that they are able to follow, that they have the skills to do. When their mind is clouded, show them a way to clear their minds, instead of assuming the mind is already cleared (although from your perspective, that's certainly true.

You are no teacher, as long as you stand above your pupils. If you want to be a teacher, instead of only showing around how great you are, step down again - at least for the moment.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Tobias Zimpel

You are no teacher, as long as you stand above your pupils. If you want to be a teacher, instead of only showing around how great you are, step down again - at least for the moment.

This thread is about empowerment through choice instead of thought, it doesn't deny thought, it places creativity with choice so to free up thought for validation.

I'm not a teacher, I'm improving the state of consciousness, if you want to use thought to create go right ahead, if you want to free up thought and go straight to creative source and use choice, then go right ahead, you seem to think I want to teach people, but that is hardly necessary, for my goal is the state of consciousness and the improvement of that.

People are not conscious, only consciousness is and choice instead of thought is the creative power, that is the point of this thread. If you want to go off topic and talk about being a guru and having a flock of followers then start your own thread.

I always start threads to improve the state of consciousenss, not to teach people.

Max

[Tobias Zimpel]

You could be right!

Tobias