Container Theory

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by torilink

it is my understanding that there can be no choice outside of duality/separation.

every possible possibility already exists, the container (beit) lies within Source (aleph) and contains all that is or ever could be - this is the Body of consciousness from which all manifests - the "Image" or reflection of Source/Supreme. I AM. Consciousness creates in the image of its creator.

Choice lies within MIND which is a creation of Consciousness, part of duality and separation. Duality is necessary for choice. Physical matter or experience is projected from Consciousness into the physical realm through both, but already exist in consciousness.

What we call "Creating" is a choosing of experience to observe. This choice exists only on the level of mind or duality.

We'll have to agree to disagree All I see is a container and choice, if I had to label consciousness or god or spirit, I would call it choice.

Works for me

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

Nice post.

How exactly did the container go about creating itself?

It was a choice

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Max Power

We'll have to agree to disagree All I see is a container and choice, if I had to label consciousness or god or spirit, I would call it choice.

Works for me

yes Max, although I am not trying to be disagreeable. I like your theory, I just see Choice as part of duality, as in oneness there is nothing to choose - all just is.

even so, I do agree that choice is the creative element on this level.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by torilink

as in oneness there is nothing to choose - all just is.

Existing in a state where there is nothing to choose is the same as being unconscious, no?

[Akashic_Librarian]

There is always choice. Lack of choice is the quintessential Human delusion. To believe we are powerless is to remove our power. It leads to religious massacres and wars. Powerlessness, God-Worship, inequality...vagaries of perception perpetuated by our insatiable desire for suffering. We crave it so we can define our existance.

Everything begins with Choice. Causality is a product of choice. Fate is a product of choice. Purpose is a product of choice. Life is a product of choice. Choice itself is a product of choice.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Everything begins with Choice. Causality is a product of choice. Fate is a product of choice. Purpose is a product of choice. Life is a product of choice. Choice itself is a product of choice.

Can you choose to be rich, without having any thoughts about money or wealth PRIOR to that choice?...

Like I said earlier in this thread: BEFORE you can choose, there must pop up some thought about the subject of your choice into your mind.

[Lallymac]

I think what Max is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that choice takes place at the super conscious levels of mind (Theta, Delta) which prompts the conscious mind through thoughts, emotions such as desire etc. The observer part of us dwells at Alpha level (conscious dreaming). So by the time we receive the prompts or signals, the choice has already been made.

Lally

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

There is always choice. Lack of choice is the quintessential Human delusion. To believe we are powerless is to remove our power. It leads to religious massacres and wars. Powerlessness, God-Worship, inequality...vagaries of perception perpetuated by our insatiable desire for suffering. We crave it so we can define our existance.

Everything begins with Choice. Causality is a product of choice. Fate is a product of choice. Purpose is a product of choice. Life is a product of choice. Choice itself is a product of choice.

yes, I agree with this on the level of form/matter.


I understood Max's meaning of Choice as being from the level of consciousness outside duality. This is what I meant, that at that level (oneness) there is no need of choice as there is nothing to choose from, all just is.


Everything within this level, the contained "reality" manifests from choice.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Frans

Can you choose to be rich, without having any thoughts about money or wealth PRIOR to that choice?...

Like I said earlier in this thread: BEFORE you can choose, there must pop up some thought about the subject of your choice into your mind.

yes, this is exactly what CHOICE is, it is not basing your "reality" on past thoughts, beliefs, actions, and perceptions. It is Choosing at this moment what you desire to be true. With that choice and that disregard of the ILLUSION (past perception) that we make it so.

If you believe tomorrow will be as today, because it is how it has always been, than you are choosing not to make a choice for your reality you are simply living the past over and over by projecting what was onto what will be and avoiding now. When instead you decide for what you desire Now, you change now and the future and it manifests into reality.

Thoughts are primarily re-active, based upon perception of the past and Ego experience. To change that we choose to perceive reality as we desire it to be instead (regardless of how our Ego mind perceives "reality" ) and that shifts us from reaction/projection into creation.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by torilink

I understood Max's meaning of Choice as being from the level of consciousness outside duality. This is what I meant, that at that level (oneness) there is no need of choice as there is nothing to choose from, all just is.

At the level of oneness or consciousness the choice is the container, everything about the container is everything that consciousness is not. Consiousness is perfect, everything about the container is imperfect, hence the need to choose it in the first place. Without the container, consciousness just is, choice may not be required (a moot point possibly) at that level, but as everything's perfect, consciousness requires choice, consciousness chooses a container and everything in it.

So what are we? We are conscious/choice and the entire output of conscious choice. There is no difference between your physical body and a tree or a frog or a paper clip or the entire container (remember the container is only ever what's in present moment awareness) It's all made of the same stuff except that your body is the central observation point. You need to observe all the choices you make, you observe through the observer, physical you.

The point of the container theory is to centralise power, to direct it better and to control it better. It actually is very well centralised, but theory about what consciousness is and where it is, destablizes it, hence the possible need for container theory.

If we can accept that we have chosen purposely this container to reside in with it's physical reality, time, growth, thought, emotion, people, cars, sky and all the other output of choice, then we can also see that maintaining it and changing it at will is all about choice.

You choose to have $5M
You choose to have a loving relationship
You choose to have good friends
You choose to be a good person

The choices we make and how much time and growth we choose to go with those choices dictates how long and how difficult manifestation will be.

I choose container theory, it's the only way for me to understand conscious/choice.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

I think what Max is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that choice takes place at the super conscious levels of mind (Theta, Delta) which prompts the conscious mind through thoughts, emotions such as desire etc. The observer part of us dwells at Alpha level (conscious dreaming). So by the time we receive the prompts or signals, the choice has already been made.

Lally

I consider that consiousness is very well connected to the observer, much if not all doubt of that is denial of that. I don't consider that consiousness is making choices and then the information feeds down to me physically and then off I go to work.

When you can see that the container is you and the physical observer (physical you) is created by you, then you've made a deep connection and access to power increases, the connection grows stronger.

There is no consciousness out there choosing and then sending the choice down to you. Everything is inside, inside the container including the awareness and connection to consciousness, by considering it's a container of sorts, deepens the connection and the direct access to power (choice) I don't consider that consciousness (true self) is all over the place and as a sideline is sending me stuff to do.

It's all right here, right now, well connected and ready to choose.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Frans

Can you choose to be rich, without having any thoughts about money or wealth PRIOR to that choice?...Like I said earlier in this thread: BEFORE you can choose, there must pop up some thought about the subject of your choice into your mind.

Yes, just choose it and get out of the way. You are actually doing this 24/7 and most of the little things you choose to be so, manifest immediately, you just don't notice them, you (we all) take them for granted.

As there is no difference between physical you and a tree, sky, road, chair etc, there is no difference between making a cup of coffee and making a million dollars, the difference is in the mind, conscious choice knows no difference, the difference is self imposed to stablise and maintain the perception of physical reality inside the container.

Thoughts do not create, emotion does not create, growth does not create, all these things are validators of choice. None of these things exist until you make a choice.

"There are rules, some can be bent, some broken"

Now make a choice.

[Lallymac]

Originally Posted by Max Power

I consider that consiousness is very well connected to the observer, much if not all doubt of that is denial of that. I don't consider that consiousness is making choices and then the information feeds down to me physically and then off I go to work.

When you can see that the container is you and the physical observer (physical you) is created by you, then you've made a deep connection and access to power increases, the connection grows stronger.

There is no consciousness out there choosing and then sending the choice down to you. Everything is inside, inside the container including the awareness and connection to consciousness, by considering it's a container of sorts, deepens the connection and the direct access to power (choice) I don't consider that consciousness (true self) is all over the place and as a sideline is sending me stuff to do.

It's all right here, right now, well connected and ready to choose.

I totally agree with you. There is no 'out there'. All the states of consciousness I mentioned are integral aspects of deeper levels of self. I was not suggesting for a minute that the concept is fed by some outside super force. I believe we are the core. Believe it or not I'm sure we're still on the same page.
Lally

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

I totally agree with you. There is no 'out there'. All the states of consciousness I mentioned are integral aspects of deeper levels of self. I was not suggesting for a minute that the concept is fed by some outside super force. I believe we are the core. Believe it or not I'm sure we're still on the same page.
Lally

Lally, I consider we're reading the same book, but we are on slightly different pages. I don't think there are deeper or higher levels of consciousness. I consider that realisation is letting go of denial, there is only one state of consciousness, various levels of denial.

[Lallymac]

Max,
I want to say a big thank you.
Your posts continually challenge me to articulate and redifine my own concepts. I see realisation more of an acceptance of self rather than a letting go of anything.
Lally

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

Max,
I want to say a big thank you.
Your posts continually challenge me to articulate and redifine my own concepts.

Your most welcome I enjoy trying to simplify the understanding of it all, my brain is very small

I see realisation more of an acceptance of self rather than a letting go of anything.

We can never uncreate anything, that's why denial is the number one problem (to borrow a Matrix line) we've already made the choice, we're here to understand it.

[Lallymac]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Your most welcome I enjoy trying to simplify the understanding of it all, my brain is very small

It's not the size, it's how you use it


We can never uncreate anything, that's why denial is the number one problem (to borrow a Matrix line) we've already made the choice, we're here to understand it.

What are we denying
Lally

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

What are we denying
Lally

The entire illusion.

Why do we consider that time is continuous and/or moving forward? Imagine you are consciousness and you are capable of creating everything, time, people, physical reality, container, love, growth. Very powerful right?

Can we really believe that consciousness doesn't know how this will end?

Anything you choose to do will have already been done. If consciousness is so powerful then anything it creates, it will know how it will end (everything that has a begining, has an end) physical beings, humans, us, what you consider to be you is in the biggest state of denial possible, it's the only way to maintain any kind of stability within the container, to keep the illusion alive.

Consciousness doesn't start off with no idea of how it will play out, that's for physical beings, us to deal with.

[BeyondBewildered]

So the container isn't me, it's my reality. This choice didn't cause me to exist, I already existed and I made a choice to incarnate into something that would appear to be a physical reality. Right? I thought you were implying that we chose to exist, and I don't understand how something that doesn't exist can make a choice to exist. I like the way you word it. I've always wondered how we inherited a limiting world view if we created the world. You're saying that in itself was a choice. The theory doesn't attempt to explain doesn't how the conciousness itself has come into existence in the first place.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

So the container isn't me, it's my reality. .

The container is consciousness, everything inside the container is consciousness, people, buildings, sky, love and of ocurse an observer to allow a first person POV.

This choice didn't cause me to exist, I already existed and I made a choice to incarnate into something that would appear to be a physical reality. Right?

Yes the choice (consciousness) caused you to exist, consciousness created you and eveything else inside the container including physical reality. Consciousness created everything then needed a way to observe it all, hence the need for an observer.

The theory doesn't attempt to explain how the conciousness itself has come into existence in the first place.

All I can comment on is what consciousness does and does not, I can only deal with what I know and try to explain it in a way that empowers and aids in maintaining container.

What created consciousness is like asking what created God.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Max Power

At the level of oneness or consciousness the choice is the container, everything about the container is everything that consciousness is not. Consiousness is perfect, everything about the container is imperfect, hence the need to choose it in the first place. Without the container, consciousness just is, choice may not be required (a moot point possibly) at that level, but as everything's perfect, consciousness requires choice, consciousness chooses a container and everything in it.

So what are we? We are conscious/choice and the entire output of conscious choice. There is no difference between your physical body and a tree or a frog or a paper clip or the entire container (remember the container is only ever what's in present moment awareness) It's all made of the same stuff except that your body is the central observation point. You need to observe all the choices you make, you observe through the observer, physical you.

The point of the container theory is to centralise power, to direct it better and to control it better. It actually is very well centralised, but theory about what consciousness is and where it is, destablizes it, hence the possible need for container theory.

If we can accept that we have chosen purposely this container to reside in with it's physical reality, time, growth, thought, emotion, people, cars, sky and all the other output of choice, then we can also see that maintaining it and changing it at will is all about choice.

You choose to have $5M
You choose to have a loving relationship
You choose to have good friends
You choose to be a good person

The choices we make and how much time and growth we choose to go with those choices dictates how long and how difficult manifestation will be.

I choose container theory, it's the only way for me to understand conscious/choice.

ok, so now I think our thoughts are not so different.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by torilink

ok, so now I think our thoughts are not so different.

I often find my thoughts through other people

[Akashic_Librarian]

Its funny you hsould say that Max, recently I have opened myself up more to the Subjective Reality thing and have started seeing reality as more of a reflection of myself and people have been voicing my thoguhts lol. Its like they are representations of my thoughts. Well I guess they ARE!

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Its funny you hsould say that Max, recently I have opened myself up more to the Subjective Reality thing and have started seeing reality as more of a reflection of myself and people have been voicing my thoguhts lol. Its like they are representations of my thoughts. Well I guess they ARE!

People can help you get anything if you let them. Everyone else is a part of you anyway, so it pays off to integrate parts of consciousness for the overall benefit of consciousness, it helps maintain the container and keep it in good shape. This also applys to everything in the container, not just people.

Everything inside the container is important, every blade of grass, every person, it's all you so it's worthwhile to look after yourself

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Max Power

I often find my thoughts through other people

well, yes - i discover much through others.

I just wanted to put this out there - you say that feelings and thoughts are "Validater's" of choice and hold no power. I think this is so when thinking in terms of Ego Projection (see below) but not necessarily conscious creation (my definition also below). Although manifestation happens in the same way through each (LOA) (IM) I have separated the process in this way to show how unintentional manifestation and intentional manifestation differ.

Manifestation is brought about through a process of reactive choice with emotion and thoughts and such as validaters (reactive) when we are functioning from Ego and projecting the past into the future.

In conscious creation we adopt of state of being through creative choice + imagination + belief - with emotion as a facilitator, now the power is in the choice but in conscious creation the imagination (creative thought) and belief combine to facilitate not validate.


Ego Projection - the ego is our persona, we are born without ego, it develops over time through experience and perception (reactive) to creation. over the years our ego's become as shells encasing our true self (I am) with layer upon layer of mis-perception building an outer "reality" which is merely an illusion or mis-perception and confusion. We react in thought, feeling, and action to what we believe is real (the past) and project that into the future. This perpetuates the illusion.

Conscious Creation - when we see that the past is all an illusion and not based on truth but upon mis-perceptions then WE CHOOSE to stop projecting the past onto the future. Instead of perpetuating the illusion of cause and effect, we decide to pro-actively create instead. We create first by making a choice about what is truth (our desire). We choose to create our own reality and move into that state of being. This creation is NOT dependent upon anything in the past (one minute ago or ten years ago) it only happens in the now (PRESENT MOMENT). We utilize proactive thoughts (imagination) and feelings to FACILITATE manifestation.

All the power may well lie in the choice, but if we are in a state of Ego projection, then choice is only made in a reactive way.

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Originally Posted by Max Power

If my partner who I love very much leaves the container, does he/she cease to exist?
This is very hard to fathom, but yes that is correct. Existance can only be defined as what is observed by the observer inside the container. The container can't and doesn't maintain creation outside of itself, it doesn't need to do that, but it can and does move things in and out of the container at will, including people. If you miss someone for long enough what usually happens?? You bring them back into the container to enjoy.

I think the container is actually greater than what the observer can perceive. The container is not dependent from the observer's senses (hear, sight etc.).
Thus, I/We are more than what I am aware to be, even if I identify with the perceived container (I am more than my body/mind field of perception). If the loved partner or anyone else leaves the perceived container, he doesn't cease to exist. He just cease to be observed (or perceived) by the observer.

[torilink]

what Max refers to as the "container" I think of as the NOW - it is ever all that exists in my awareness. I can bring into that anything I choose - if I believe I am the result of infinite past moments (ego persona) then I bring all of that in, this is the Ego projecting past into future.

If I am in bondage to my Ego and the past, then images of the Past control and I toil and suffer in my bondage.

NOW, or the container as Max defines it is all possibility - every possible possibility, and we have the choice what IS.

I am in this moment all I choose to be - I AM -

when we string these NOW's together from an ego based perspective, we have linear time as our brain understands it, but all that ever truly exists is what you can imagine NOW. We bring into the NOW what we choose, whether it be in memory - or imagination.

[Max Power]

The point of considering that your existance is inside a container of sorts is to localise power, control and keep the whole thing managable. When we consider the universe and our place in it, that can be very overwhelming, so we may need to simplify to make it more understandable.

Considering that the universe is the really huge thing and consiousness is everywhere does not help me live my life, it places too much 'out there' and outside my awareness, outside my importance and outside my control. Control is probably the wrong word, but it's pointless to me, to not have any or to be at the mercy of something that isn't based on me, outside there somewhere

Container theory is just a way to view life and in the process aid in living that life, much like SR.

Max

[Liara Covert]

I like to think "outside-the-container." Thanks for all your discussions. I like how people explore their ideas of limitations and subtle fears about infinite possibilities.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Liara Covert

I like to think "outside-the-container." Thanks for all your discussions. I like how people explore their ideas of limitations and subtle fears about infinite possibilities.

We're all different, but not really I like my container and putting things in there, although sometimes I put some very odd stuff in there But as long as it's in there, I did it, so I have to deal with it

Max