LOA - what's the point?

[taylor]

I've experimented with LOA for a good long time and gave it an honest effort. What I've found after the smoke has cleared is that it just wasted my time and doesn't seem to have any evidence that it works. Mind-body, self-fulfilling prophecy, Hawthorne effect, Pygmalion effect, etc. I do admit work to varying degrees, but they aren't LOA, they are science. They are observably true. So I'm not saying that beliefs don't affect reality, but that they affect it in a natural, rather than magical way.

What I know does work much better is direct immediate action.

All of the time where LOA seemed to have worked for me can be explained by direct action much more simply and seemingly accurately.

Why not just ignore all the visualizations and instead just decide what you want and get it done?

In fact, rather than wasting time looking at a vision board or something, why not learn and strategize the most effective ways to accomplish something. That's working WITH reality rather than living in a bubble.

What I notice is that there is a major downside to LOA or magical thinking, which is denial of physical reality. The more you believe that your circumstances are different than they are, the less powerful you seem to become, because you can no longer act within reality, but must escape in a dream/fantasy where it's all the way you want. The more time you spend there, the greater the disconnect and worse the come down when you come into contact with reality, which must eventually occur because fantasies are very unstable structures.

LOA sounds good which makes it seductive, but that's not the same thing as being true. But if everything can be accomplished more quickly through direct action now, what's the point of LOA techniques?

[VinceG]

Ultimately it depends on the act, and the relationship of the person to the thing desired.

What a lot of people don't realize is that even with I/M, life is still a lot of work. We can do that work as effortlessly as we can imagine, but it's still work, and still requires attention to do. We are Infinitely powerful Creators who can realize anything and everything we have the imagination for. But the greater the difference between reality and imagination, the more work we have to do to realize it.

I can manifest parking spaces, love interests, paying gigs, interesting conversations, anything I want, really.

The key is to progress from trivial things like parking spots to bigger things like meetings with powerful people, ideas on accomplishing bigger goals, hitting bigger and bigger sales targets. If you don't work on it and make it "real," then you'll never get far with it.

[SethWilliams]

I dont understand. Why would you try to manifest something if you can just act on a desire and accomplish it that way?

Manifestation is a way of healing and creating when you cant act in a normal way to accomplish your goals.

Also, beliefs affect reality in whatever way you believe they do.

Manifestation is WORK.

I sometimes spend days at a time adding attention and energy to an intention. I count that as work. Because im tired afterwards. If you try to manifest something and you feel basically the same you did before you employed a manifestation technique. You did it wrong.

Conscious manifestation was an art long before the term Law of Attraction and will be around long after the term has been discarded.

[taylor]

I guess I don't see why you can't just make the conversation or parking space or anything happen without the IM processes. What I see people trying to manifest is conventional things that they could get without magic, and if they are successful we could just as easily say they got it indirectly from the magic through exploiting opportunities they were more internally ready to exploit by aligning to their goals.

Like look at Steve as an example. He's a big believer in IM, and yet, if anyone in the same situation did the same actions as Steve they would have the same results regardless of how much time they spend visualizing. Actions seem to always be the bottom line so why not just cut to the chase.

Are there actually things you can't take action on and can get through LOA?

[SethWilliams]

Well. I could get a house through Conscious manifestation,

Yet i dont currently have the funds for that.

I was basically unlucky in love until I applied conscious manifestation.

I took action trying to get a boyfriend all the time. But it just wasnt working.

Within a couple of weeks of meditation for manifesting love I found my wonderful boyfriend.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by taylor

I guess I don't see why you can't just make the conversation or parking space or anything happen without the IM processes.

What do you mean? How could you get the best parking space in the building regularly without some sort of manifestation or otherwise magical manipulation? Maybe bring a crane with you? Normally that's completely random.

What I see people trying to manifest is conventional things that they could get without magic, and if they are successful we could just as easily say they got it indirectly from the magic through exploiting opportunities they were more internally ready to exploit by aligning to their goals.

This is a failure of the individual's imagination, not a failure of I/M. When I said we're only limited by our imagination, that's a real and tangible limitation, not some fluffy crap I'm just spouting.

Like look at Steve as an example. He's a big believer in IM, and yet, if anyone in the same situation did the same actions as Steve they would have the same results regardless of how much time they spend visualizing. Actions seem to always be the bottom line so why not just cut to the chase.

Are there actually things you can't take action on and can get through LOA?

Ahh you're making the mistake of thinking LoA replaces action. It doesn't. It just makes your actions more effective. You could take one action without any sort of LoA manipulation whatsover, then take the same action with all the manipulation. Guess which action will bring about outsized results?

[radscorpion8]

Well I think you have a perfectly reasonable post; but unnecessarily analytical . If you find that the LOA doesn't have any hard evidence of working in your life and it seems to be all the result of action, then you've proven to yourself (to the best of your ability) that the LOA concept is false.

If it is false, then you necessarily have no other choice but to produce results through action - LOA is simply discarded as a false notion.

But at the same time, things that are related to the LOA may still be of some use. There are well documented benefits of being positive (they helped doctors make better decisions in one study that was presented at a TED conference), and meditation could be useful for stress relief. So perhaps you could look into those purely for the psychological benefits.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by SethWilliams

Well. I could get a house through Conscious manifestation,

Yet i dont currently have the funds for that.

That's a real constraint, so you'll have to get those funds or find a different option that meets your needs. This is strategic thinking and in my mind is productive because it leads to action, vs. magical thinking which says "I already have it." which leads to, in this case, non-action. Correct action is the bottom line though.

Originally Posted by SethWilliams

I was basically unlucky in love until I applied conscious manifestation.

I took action trying to get a boyfriend all the time. But it just wasnt working.

Within a couple of weeks of meditation for manifesting love I found my wonderful boyfriend.

That can be explained just as well through Reticular Activation System and Self-fulfilling prophecy. Therefore in this explanation your I/M processes worked quite well for you, but only because you saw things differently and therefore acted differently.

Originally Posted by VinceG

What do you mean? How could you get the best parking space in the building regularly without some sort of manifestation or otherwise magical manipulation? Maybe bring a crane with you? Normally that's completely random.

I don't know your experiences so it's hard for me to speculate. It could be that you're biasing results to match expectation through a degree of rationalization. Or that you are subconsciously taking subtly different actions in order to keep your match your expectations (self-fulfilling prophecy). Or that you are just getting lucky atm. Or that you are performing genuine LOA powers and I'm mistaken. I never had any results that now aren't explained more elegantly naturalistically. Maybe you do have these results, but you probably won't be able to tell within the LOA paradigm because, at least while I was operating within it, it was unquestionably true and colored all of my perceptions. And maybe that's okay if you're getting good results. Don't mean to mess with yer mojo.

Originally Posted by VinceG

This is a failure of the individual's imagination, not a failure of I/M. When I said we're only limited by our imagination, that's a real and tangible limitation, not some fluffy crap I'm just spouting.

I just mean you never see someone manifest something other wordly that literally can't be explained naturalistically, it's always something that they could acquire conventionally. This leads me to guess maybe it's because they did acquire it conventionally and then explained it to fit in with their LOA beliefs.

Originally Posted by VinceG

Ahh you're making the mistake of thinking LoA replaces action. It doesn't. It just makes your actions more effective. You could take one action without any sort of LoA manipulation whatsover, then take the same action with all the manipulation. Guess which action will bring about outsized results?

They will have the same result. My point is: Same action, Same result. Why not just cut out the middle man and make it happen.

What if rather than visualizing themselves as already having it and then acting, they spent that time strategizing and then acting. I would put my money on the one that thought it through in relation to reality, rather than one who just expects it to magically come if they vaguely act in the right direction.

It's not that LOA is bad, but there is a danger of delusions blocking our contact with reality and therefore actually rendering us less effective. We don't take action because it's all gonna work out, or we take the wrong action because we have 100% belief that something's going to work when there's no rational reason to believe it, or we waste too much time in visualization that could be spent in taking action.

The bottom line is always Correct Action.

[ChrisC]

Just a few examples of evidence of LoA that I've seen throughout my life:

When I first learned how to drive, I was incredibly nervous and so I prayed to St. Christopher to watch over me whenever I got behind the wheel. I had full faith in my prayers, but I also strove to be a careful driver. That was over 30 years ago and I have not been in an auto accident (while I was driving) yet, and have received only one traffic ticket. My son, on the other hand, has been in a few wrecks shortly after receiving his license - one of which seemed like the result of a bizzaar chain of events. I do believe that there are subtle differences in how people view their lives and that this has some influence on the outcomes. And in my experience it isn't at all about making a wish and then sitting back and letting it happen. There is something about taking action that facilitates the arranging of outside events to cooperate with your intent. I think that many successful people use the LoA without even knowing it.

[Criseyde]

Taylor, how can you take correct action without correct thought?

[SethWilliams]

Sometimes I find i will guided to take this or that action, to help put me on the path to my desire.

I sometimes equate manifestation as simply opening doors to your desired reality or outcome.

Once you've opened the door, are you brave enough to walk through it and have faith.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Taylor, how can you take correct action without correct thought?

The only thoughts you probably need are what to do, when, and how. Then you just take action.

That's strategic vs. affirmational.

For example if I wanted to do something ridiculous like always find parking spots:

Affirmation: I could either see myself parking there or affirm that I have done so, do hypnosis to change my beliefs about parking, write in a gratitude journal about parking, etc.

Or

Strategy: I could get a handicap sticker, or get a cop car, or ride a bike, or get an employee pass, go at different times, or park out back, or google search a strategy, etc. you get the idea. I'm brainstorming ideas and then I'd select the one that seems most likely to work and do it.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by taylor

The only thoughts you probably need are what to do, when, and how. Then you just take action.

That's strategic vs. affirmational.

For example if I wanted to do something ridiculous like always find parking spots:

Affirmation: I could either see myself parking there or affirm that I have done so, do hypnosis to change my beliefs about parking, write in a gratitude journal about parking, etc.

Or

Strategy: I could get a handicap sticker, or get a cop car, or ride a bike, or get an employee pass, go at different times, or park out back, or google search a strategy, etc. you get the idea. I'm brainstorming ideas and then I'd select the one that seems most likely to work and do it.

That sounds an awful lot like manifestation to me.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by taylor

LOA sounds good which makes it seductive, but that's not the same thing as being true. But if everything can be accomplished more quickly through direct action now, what's the point of LOA techniques?

It's all for the enrichment of the ego.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Beingist

It's all for the enrichment of the ego.

Love your ego. Feed it every day.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Love your ego. Feed it every day.

Spoken like a true narcissist!

[taylor]

Originally Posted by VinceG

That sounds an awful lot like manifestation to me.

It is manifestation.

My question surrounds the Intention aspect. I don't need affirmations or a special vibration or visualizations or all this stuff to get a parking spot, which is emphasized to death by all the New Thought authors. If I can act, then that's all that's needed. I don't need to feel good, be good person, meditate, etc. If I can take the right action I'll get the result.

Why are they emphasizing the internal processes so much over action when you can get the same results without any of those processes? All that process stuff seems like is a big distraction from getting it done already.

My guess is that's what people want to hear so it's taught.

Take care of your attitude, spiritual side, all of this is great. But I don't see how you can say these things are the cause of you getting some concrete physical result instead of the cause being your concrete physical action.

[SethWilliams]

I applied for a job. Didnt get to the interview process.

I applied a meditation aimed at getting you a job.

I applied for the same job, and got through to the interview section.

Actions are necessary. But there actually just the finer details.

Its the beliefs about your actions, chances and worth that dictate most of your life.

Of course if your experience dictates otherwise, my post is completely moot.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Spoken like a true narcissist!

If you want a decent clinical perspective on narcissism, I recommend this blog:
The Last Psychiatrist

[MagicalRealist]

Originally Posted by taylor

What I know does work much better is direct immediate action.

All of the time where LOA seemed to have worked for me can be explained by direct action much more simply and seemingly accurately.

Why not just ignore all the visualizations and instead just decide what you want and get it done?

In my own experience, intending + action = results. And when I do the work of setting an intention first--getting clear on exactly what I want, vividly imagining what it would feel like to have it, and eliminating any limiting beliefs that stand in the way of getting it--the actions I need to take suddenly become much clearer. Whatever work I have to do on a material level then gets done much more efficiently and without struggle. Information I need, or people who could help me, suddenly appear. Things just seem to click into place--as if by magic. The results are far better than those I used to get by action alone.

I've always tended to be a rational, analytical, brain-in-a-jar kind of person. I used to think everything through, and take the next logical action. And I used to have to work very hard to get results. I got good results, mind you--but they required a lot of effort on my part.

I'm still a very rational/analytical type. But one thing I have learned in studying and practicing I-M is that my intuition--my "gut"--and my emotional state is a much better guide to action than my brain. This goes totally against everything I've ever been taught, and gets dismissed as being "woo-woo," New Age-y nonsense, but damn if it isn't true.

I can think, strategize, and define steps all I want, but sometimes the best next move is something that, logically, makes no sense at all (at least not until later). Learning to trust my intuition, to follow where it leads, and to let everything unfold without forcing it, has completely changed the way I make decisions and act on them for the better.

So on a day-to-day level, as I'm about to take action toward my intended goal, I consider what feelings come up. If I feel any fear or anxiety, I'll do the work to dispel it. If I feel resistance--which for me is often a feeling of heaviness, tiredness, or depression when I contemplate it--I'll weigh alternatives to see which feels better. Sometimes, I just need to take a different kind of action, or approach it from a slightly different angle. Sometimes, I realize that it's too soon to take that particular action. At other times, I realize that I don't need to do that thing at all--so I don't, even though logic says I should.

And it's amazing how things work out when I do that. I get much better results, and I don't have to work so hard for them. In fact, I don't have to work hard at all--because when I'm doing what feels right at a given time, it's not hard.

So: I set up the intention to do or have something, and I do my best to remain open to receiving guidance on how to do or get it. I then follow that guidance and take whatever action I am prompted to take, simply because it feels good, right, or (in Abe-Hicks parlance) "downstream." And it works.

What I notice is that there is a major downside to LOA or magical thinking, which is denial of physical reality.

I agree, but probably not for the same reasons you do.

There are people into I-M who believe we don't have to take any action at all. Just ask, believe, and receive. You can become a rockstar without having to get off the couch. And while maybe there might be some people--gurus in India, for example--who can manifest things seemingly out of thin air, it doesn't seem to work very well for most people (at least not for anything big).

I'm of the opinion that things tend to happen slowly on the physical level. Your intended outcome may already exist on a spiritual level, but here on the material plane of existence there's a lot of resistance to be overcome before it can manifest. Stuff that manifests immediately is usually small stuff that you had no resistance to (blue feathers, cups of coffee, parking spaces) or something you completely gave up on (finding love, being repaid an old debt), and thus dropped all resistance to.

And the bigger and more ambitious your desire is, the more resistance you're likely to put in its way, and the more you need to do to overcome that resistance so you can receive it. But what you need to do doesn't necessarily have to be difficult, painful, or a struggle--as long as you're "tuned in" to your intuition and willing to accept guidance from your emotions. They will tell you what to do, and whether you are taking the right course of action. You just have to be willing to listen and take them seriously.

The more you believe that your circumstances are different than they are, the less powerful you seem to become, because you can no longer act within reality, but must escape in a dream/fantasy where it's all the way you want.

I used to believe my circumstances were hopelessly crappy; all evidence I'd seen pointed to this as "reality." And in that "reality" I had very little power, my ability to act was negligible, and I tended to retreat into fantasy for consolation. As far as I was concerned I wasn't negative; I was a realist, being realistic, and I had plenty of evidence to back up my views.

Then I decided, as a thought experiment, to start believing my circumstances were not-crap. I looked around me for evidence that this not-crap state of affairs was true. And once I shifted my focus toward not-crap, I started seeing it everywhere--I couldn't not see it anymore--and thus it became my reality.

So, which reality was right?

An observer may look at something that's happened to me and decide it's absolutely horrible. But I might look at it and decide that it's not a problem at all. Maybe it's even a good thing--a lesson learned, a reminder to get back on track, an illustration of how well things are working for me, a blessing in disguise. Nothing bad has happened, no matter what the observer says.

The observer might think I'm delusional or living in La-La Land for not seeing how bad things are; I might think the observer is so stuck in their own negativity they can't see that everything's really okay. So who is right? Who is in touch with reality, here?

Where many people fall down in trying I-M isn't that they're living in a fantasy world, believing their circumstances are really wonderful when in fact they're lousy. It's that they still believe their circumstances are lousy underneath a false cover of positivity. They have fantasies of being magically rescued from their lousy current reality just by wishing it so, and the kinds of intentions they put forth (i.e., winning the lottery) reflect that.

They don't see how they are creating a reality they need rescuing from, and that they are the only ones who can rescue themselves by creating a new reality. Instead, they're wishing their fantasies of being rescued from themselves and their creations will come true. What are their circumstances in reality? They just are. Whether they are good or bad depends on their perceptions. And when perception changes, reality changes--even if there is no immediate change in material circumstances.

LOA sounds good which makes it seductive, but that's not the same thing as being true.

It's not that it's untrue; it's that using I-M effectively demands that the person using undergo deep, profound changes in the way they perceive the world and themselves. Your world won't change until you do--not in any important, lasting ways, at any rate. And most people resist making those changes for a while (I sure as hell did, and in some areas still do)--or they choose not to change at all and then claim the LoA is a bunch of woo-woo invented by scammers, and that I-M doesn't work.

[HappyIam]

What a fantastic post MagicalRealist!!!

[Marvel]

LOA is another term for Law of Belief. When you get rid negative belief about what you want, you'll activate LOA

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by taylor

I've experimented with LOA for a good long time and gave it an honest effort. What I've found after the smoke has cleared is that it just wasted my time and doesn't seem to have any evidence that it works. Mind-body, self-fulfilling prophecy, Hawthorne effect, Pygmalion effect, etc. I do admit work to varying degrees, but they aren't LOA, they are science. They are observably true. So I'm not saying that beliefs don't affect reality, but that they affect it in a natural, rather than magical way.

What I know does work much better is direct immediate action.

All of the time where LOA seemed to have worked for me can be explained by direct action much more simply and seemingly accurately.

Why not just ignore all the visualizations and instead just decide what you want and get it done?

In fact, rather than wasting time looking at a vision board or something, why not learn and strategize the most effective ways to accomplish something. That's working WITH reality rather than living in a bubble.

What I notice is that there is a major downside to LOA or magical thinking, which is denial of physical reality. The more you believe that your circumstances are different than they are, the less powerful you seem to become, because you can no longer act within reality, but must escape in a dream/fantasy where it's all the way you want. The more time you spend there, the greater the disconnect and worse the come down when you come into contact with reality, which must eventually occur because fantasies are very unstable structures.

LOA sounds good which makes it seductive, but that's not the same thing as being true. But if everything can be accomplished more quickly through direct action now, what's the point of LOA techniques?

Newbie.

[blissmaster]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Newbie.

Awesome ALG this ends the discussion

[taylor]

Pfft.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by taylor

I've experimented with LOA for a good long time and gave it an honest effort. What I've found after the smoke has cleared is that it just wasted my time and doesn't seem to have any evidence that it works.

So have I been, and it is working for me, especially over the course of the summer. You must be doing it wrong.

What I know does work much better is direct immediate action.

No amount of "direct immediate action" would have accomplished what I manifested this summer. In fact, direct action was pushing what I wanted farther and farther away from me all the time.

Why not just ignore all the visualizations and instead just decide what you want and get it done?

Because visualizing works and deciding to get it done doesn't.

What I notice is that there is a major downside to LOA or magical thinking, which is denial of physical reality. The more you believe that your circumstances are different than they are, the less powerful you seem to become, because you can no longer act within reality, but must escape in a dream/fantasy where it's all the way you want. The more time you spend there, the greater the disconnect and worse the come down when you come into contact with reality, which must eventually occur because fantasies are very unstable structures.

Totally wrong. Way back in early summer, when I got my first huge sign that my visualizations were paying off (a mere week after I had begun them), I was so ecstatic that I wrote about it here on the forums and some goofball said exactly the same thing - he warned me of the great fall I was going to have when I "woke up" and realized I was living in some fantasy.

It never happened, while the reality ("fantasy") I was visualizing is now just a hair away from being realized in its totality.

Who has the authority to tell me what my reality is? You? Some goofball who thinks I need to prepare myself for a huge downfall when I "wake up"? Worst advice ever!

[Bonadea]

need to come back to read

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by taylor

Pfft.

Hi Taylor. By all means, take action on your goals. The usual limitations of this approach:

1. Too much action may wear you down, stress you out, create a strain etc.

2. You will tend to limit yourself to goals that you perceive as dependent on your own actions (not realizing that goals NOT dependent on your own action are also achievable).

3. You will encounter situations where you really don't know what action should be taken, or where you don't have the necessary time, energy, motivation, tools or other resources you need to take certain actions.

This isn't to say that taking action is a stupid idea. It works. It is sufficient to help a lot of people improve their own lives significantly. It just has its limitations, that is all.

There are other ways ....

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Because visualizing works and deciding to get it done doesn't.

I kind of agree... I spent the last 6 months frantically taking action on the whole getting-a-job thing to no avail. Finally, within the last two weeks or so, I decided to relax a little and focus on visualizing and getting lined up, and not AS much on searching and applying -- i.e. I only did it when I felt like it, it wasn't something I "had to" do. After not very many days of this, I now have four avenues to pursue when before I literally had zero.

[Andrew Brunelle]

Direct action is essential in applying LoA. Those who believe otherwise are simply deluding themselves. But if you don't know what you want, then simply just taking action is also self-defeating. It's all about balance. While you visualize what you want, you also have to take steps to make that visualization become reality. If something seems too good to be true, it probably is, but the LoA is a tool you can use to accomplish your goals faster and with more accuracy by deciding exactly what it is that you want. It is not a catch-all, sit on your butt magical thinking miracle. It is simply a tool, like meditation or direct action. Synergistically they work together to form the completion of a goal. There are many ways to "skin a cat" but using more than one will yield much better results. A multi-dimensional approach is far superior than the sum of its parts.

At least that's what I believe about the LoA and it has worked for me many times for many different goals I've had, but not without taking some kind of direct action. Remember that.