Free will vs Destiny vs Fate vs Others

[Circle]

Subjective Free will- We control ourselves. Reality is utterly subjective. I create.

Objective Free Will - We have free will, others have free will. Lots of free wills are mingling around = Creation.

Free will+Subconscious - we have free will + we are also controlled by our past which works in present as subnconscious impulses.

Destiny - We have predetrmined destiny. That is the point where we will end up, no matter which route we end up through.

Checkpoint Destiny - There will be certain experiences we will have to go through no matter what. The rest depends on what we do to our life

Fate - Every thing from the moving of a leaf to the blink of an eye is predestined to happe. Life is just a movie playing. All is predeestined, Even Every thought we think we think. We have nothing in our hands.

We can never know really.

BUt still

What is your view of life? And ask yourself a question and be honest in finding the answer - " Why do I really support this view? Are there any hidden motives at work?"

Do you find the concept of fate painful?
The concept of subjective free will utterly pleasurable?

What is the feeling that each view evokes in you and then question that feeling? What is it in you that stimulated pleasure in you at the name of subjective free will and pain at the name of FATE?

Need for Security?
Need to be in control (EGO)?
or something else?

Anyway, which one do you believe in?.

[Reefs]

Neti-Neti.

[Circle]

Neti-Neti.

Who is saying this?

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Circle

Who is saying this?

That's the question of all questions. I guess saying just happens.

But who is asking this?

[Circle]

who asks questions?
If mind.
Then who controls mind?

....And If its mind working on its own then Its a living entity- thinking, trying to survive, doing everything a living being does, isn't it?
Aren't we really mind? Many accept that they are their minds while other try to prove they are something behind it ( as you often do............ with your mind )
And some fall into delusion that they are no longer their mind ( the enlightened ones)..

Which is the real delusion , the being - the one that enlightened ones suffer from, or I am a collection of this and that - the common man.... I think the real deluded ones are those who got 'enlightened' and we go on worshipping , praising them...
What do you say?

[Circle]

Enligtened ones have given birth to a hypochondriac population... Just because they think ( Know as the call it) they have experienced something bigger does not deny that this also could be a delusion.. and then they go on infecting other people with their disease, some get infected , some don't. What the hell is going on?!!
And some who have not yet 'experinced' the 'ultimate bliss' also go on propounding such things as you are not you this and not your that....

[Circle]

Now this is another way of looking at it...... equally profound.... if you are open to anti-views that is...

Why be so sure of either? Why not be open to both possibilities? Why jump towards a polarity?...,...

[Circle]

I don't know why we get so obsessed with the polarities.. why cant we just say 'I don't Know'... Either we go on propounding that we are brain OR that we are something else... Why not be open to both possibilities?..

What makes us cling to a polarity?

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Circle

who asks questions?
If mind.
Then who controls mind?

....And If its mind working on its own then Its a living entity- thinking, trying to survive, doing everything a living being does, isn't it?
Aren't we really mind? Many accept that they are their minds while other try to prove they are something behind it ( as you often do............ with your mind )
And some fall into delusion that they are no longer their mind ( the enlightened ones)..

Which is the real delusion , the being - the one that enlightened ones suffer from, or I am a collection of this and that - the common man.... I think the real deluded ones are those who got 'enlightened' and we go on worshipping , praising them...
What do you say?

The fact that we are having a dialog via the internet doesn't mean that we are subject to the laws of the internet, meaning when it gets turned off, we cease to be. We are beyond the internet. We witness it. The identity given to us when engaging in internet activity does only make sense within the realms of the internet. Similar with mind.

And I don't really try to prove that there is something behind mind or beyond it, that's not possible. I'm only pointing into that direction, although lately I also doubt that even pointing at it isn't really possible.

What I'm pointing at is not a concept, it cannot be grasped by mind. Therefore it cannot be conveyed. You can only know what I'm talking about when conceptualizing in you also stops. And you cannot bring that about. It will suddenly happen. Until then, it's just annoying to hear someone telling you that you cannot grasp it and that there is nothing to figure out or to make sense of and that things just happen.

And conceptualizing stops for everyone from time to time. Usually only for split seconds, when time seems to stand still, when you are taken aback by a beautiful scenery or when you are in an emergency, when there is only functioning in the moment, no commenting, no conceptualizing and bringing it into some context. Have a look at the flow experience research done by Csikszentmihalyi. Could be helpful. Or look up 'direct experience'.

Usually the deluded ones are those who talk about delusion and enlightenment or those who think who finally have it figured out and that 'all is good'.

[xtremelady]

I don't know what I believe......Would be easy for me to say that genetics, culture, personality and upbringing defies freewill as anything but an illusion, however I do not think this is the whole story......

[Placebo23]

Originally Posted by Circle

who asks questions?
If mind.
Then who controls mind?

Mind is an intelligent spontaneous unfolding. There is nobody who controls it.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by xtremelady

I don't know what I believe......Would be easy for me to say that genetics, culture, personality and upbringing defies freewill as anything but an illusion, however I do not think this is the whole story......

Do you know what your next thought will be, or do you have to wait until it happens?

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Do you know what your next thought will be, or do you have to wait until it happens?

That's the funny thing about living in a conceptual world. If you knew what your next thoughts would be, you'd be living in the future. But that's not the case. So you don't live in the future. If you knew the thought in the same moment it appears, you would live in the now. But that's also not the case, because when a thought appears, it is brought into context first via conceptualizing (how does it relate to MEE?). Therefore, you actually live in the past.

[xtremelady]

Do you know what your next thought will be, or do you have to wait until it happens?

Haha I wish I were that astute;

The problem I have with the question is this – the more one delves into psychology the evidence that free will is an illusion becomes vast. (If free will is an illusion - than we are propelled towards the idea of fate and destiny).

However the whole point of psychotherapy is to aid individuals to change their outlook and encompass change; in fact much of the practical aspects of psychology is geared in promoting individual change. Evidence supports that this is possible thus (if change is possible then fate can be changed propelling me towards the idea of both objective and subconscious freewill).

Therefore are all the choices intermingled and dependent on your own perceptions and outlook? There would be essentially no wrong or right answer. Just a thought

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by xtremelady

Haha I wish I were that astute;

The problem I have with the question is this – the more one delves into psychology the evidence that free will is an illusion becomes vast. (If free will is an illusion - than we are propelled towards the idea of fate and destiny).

However the whole point of psychotherapy is to aid individuals to change their outlook and encompass change; in fact much of the practical aspects of psychology is geared in promoting individual change. Evidence supports that this is possible thus (if change is possible then fate can be changed propelling me towards the idea of both objective and subconscious freewill).

Therefore are all the choices intermingled and dependent on your own perceptions and outlook? There would be essentially no wrong or right answer. Just a thought

Yes, a bit of honest looking into free will quickly reveals it's illusory nature, but the conclusion of fate or destiny is just the other side of the free will coin, and the whole coin is illusory. If this coin isn't tossed out, there's an apparent paradox in that stuff can be changed in spite of the fact that nobody has the volition to change anything. The paradox only happens because the coin is still being grasped.

It's actually not about free will or destiny or predetermination. These ideas are all based on the reality of a separate self and separation is simply not true. The idea is that I'm a separate person and so I either have free will or I'm a victim of fate. If I am not a separate person, those alternatives never arise at all. They don't mean anything.

In that case, change happens, choices happen, evolution happens, problem solving happens, even enlightenment happens, but it doesn't happen in the context of a separate person, but in the larger context of the changing, evolving expression of wholeness, which of course you are. IOW, rather than a victim of fate, YOU are the creator of the universe, you just aren't a separate person. The creator of the universe doesn't enter his creation as one of the objects created, and then try to control the creation. That would be silly.

[Placebo23]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yes, a bit of honest looking into free will quickly reveals it's illusory nature, but the conclusion of fate or destiny is just the other side of the free will coin, and the whole coin is illusory. If this coin isn't tossed out, there's an apparent paradox in that stuff can be changed in spite of the fact that nobody has the volition to change anything. The paradox only happens because the coin is still being grasped.

It's actually not about free will or destiny or predetermination. These ideas are all based on the reality of a separate self and separation is simply not true. The idea is that I'm a separate person and so I either have free will or I'm a victim of fate. If I am not a separate person, those alternatives never arise at all. They don't mean anything.

In that case, change happens, choices happen, evolution happens, problem solving happens, even enlightenment happens, but it doesn't happen in the context of a separate person, but in the larger context of the changing, evolving expression of wholeness, which of course you are. IOW, rather than a victim of fate, YOU are the creator of the universe, you just aren't a separate person. The creator of the universe doesn't enter his creation as one of the objects created, and then try to control the creation. That would be silly.

Thank you, Arcanum. You hit the nail on the head with this post.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The creator of the universe doesn't enter his creation as one of the objects created, and then try to control the creation. That would be silly.

That's where you might lose the LOA'ers. They are the creator and the creation.

And 'silly' is just a concept.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Reefs

That's where you might lose the LOA'ers. They are the creator and the creation.

And 'silly' is just a concept.

While it's true that the creation is not separate from the creator, it's not so that the creation is endowed with the power to create. Form is the creator in expression, as the dance is the movement of the dancer, but we would not say the dance is dancing the dance.

Yes, I expect to lose my entire LOA following with that one. Hehe.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

While it's true that the creation is not separate from the creator, it's not so that the creation is endowed with the power to create. Form is the creator in expression, as the dance is the movement of the dancer, but we would not say the dance is dancing the dance.

Yes, I expect to lose my entire LOA following with that one. Hehe.

You mean the dance has no free will to chose and create?

[oasis]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yes, a bit of honest looking into free will quickly reveals it's illusory nature, but the conclusion of fate or destiny is just the other side of the free will coin, and the whole coin is illusory. If this coin isn't tossed out, there's an apparent paradox in that stuff can be changed in spite of the fact that nobody has the volition to change anything. The paradox only happens because the coin is still being grasped.

It's actually not about free will or destiny or predetermination. These ideas are all based on the reality of a separate self and separation is simply not true. The idea is that I'm a separate person and so I either have free will or I'm a victim of fate. If I am not a separate person, those alternatives never arise at all. They don't mean anything.

In that case, change happens, choices happen, evolution happens, problem solving happens, even enlightenment happens, but it doesn't happen in the context of a separate person, but in the larger context of the changing, evolving expression of wholeness, which of course you are. IOW, rather than a victim of fate, YOU are the creator of the universe, you just aren't a separate person. The creator of the universe doesn't enter his creation as one of the objects created, and then try to control the creation. That would be silly.

Very gd point. I think quite often people view LOA from a purely egoic perspective, and not from their true identity,

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Reefs

You mean the dance has no free will to chose and create?

No, but it IS true that a tail can wag the dog if the doggie is light enough.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

No, but it IS true that a tail can wag the dog if the doggie is light enough.

Hehe, I've seen a lot of tails here all puffed up who started wagging their favorite dog after having a good conceptual smoke. But when the smoke settled, there was neither tail nor dog left. It somehow disappeared with the smoke... a disappearing appearance so to speak.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Reefs

Hehe, I've seen a lot of tails here all puffed up who started wagging their favorite dog after having a good conceptual smoke. But when the smoke settled, there was neither tail nor dog left. It somehow disappeared with the smoke... a disappearing appearance so to speak.

I'll PUT you on the mailing list for my new book 'The Power of Utter Futility'. Oprah Winfrey is gonna promote it, so I know it will be on the best seller list.

[Oceans]

Science 1 - 0 Free will

Neuroscience and Free Will BBC video [mirror] - YouTube

[wolfgang]

does it make any sense to act as if we don't have free will?

actually you can't even do that, since it's just happening...

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

does it make any sense to act as if we don't have free will?

actually you can't even do that, since it's just happening...

Right, the way we interpret the world is determined by the conditioning present. Not just the choices we make but all thoughts about our experience. Consciously, we just experience the end result which could not have happened any other way than it did.

This means that all attempts to control perception from the conscious level is doomed to failure. We can't consciously choose to think or feel or believe differently than how we do. This would be like watching a movie and trying to change what is actually happening on the screen, ignoring the fact that what's happening is already on the film.

We can say that we CAN alter the conditioning by becoming aware of it and challenging our beliefs and assumptions, and this WILL alter the conditioning, and therefore alter the thoughts, feelings, beliefs and choices that happen and are experienced, and there's no reason to NOT do this. However, whether or not we do that is also determined by that same conditioning, and so there is no controller anywhere. What is happening is simply unfolding by itself.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

We can say that we CAN alter the conditioning by becoming aware of it and challenging our beliefs and assumptions, and this WILL alter the conditioning, and therefore alter the thoughts, feelings, beliefs and choices that happen and are experienced, and there's no reason to NOT do this. However, whether or not we do that is also determined by that same conditioning, and so there is no controller anywhere. What is happening is simply unfolding by itself.

Lol, the loophole of death, or freedom depending on your conditioning. It would be interesting to know how many minds read that paragraph and turn it into something completely different.

[Oceans]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Lol, the loophole of death, or freedom depending on your conditioning. It would be interesting to know how many minds read that paragraph and turn it into something completely different.

You can test this, let them explain it back to him in their own words, with an example.

[arpee]

Unconditional love is allowing others to be and accepting them without forcing them to change. If this universe is based on unconditional love then logically each individual is born with their own free will.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by arpee

Unconditional love is allowing others to be and accepting them without forcing them to change. If this universe is based on unconditional love then logically each individual is born with their own free will.

I don't understand the logic. (Which usually means I don't make the same assumptions)
The reason Love is unconditional is because it is not personal.