Virginia Tech Massacre: LOA, LOK, Destiny?

[ElizaJ]

I'm trying to come to terms with what happened at Virginia Tech today and am trying to sort out this tragedy and make some sense out of it. This forum is big on the Law of Attraction (LOA) and that whatever enters someone's life is because of the Law of Attraction. There are others that believe in the Law of Karma and that whatever tragedies occur in people's lives are due to their receiving back what they sent out. And yet others would call it Destiny. I would appreciate it if people could post their opinion on this thread as to what they think is the underlying cause of the Virginia Tech Massacre.

[shesaboutspirit]

I have no idea...some things we just may never understand from this human perspective. I'm glad you posted the question though. I was looking on here and wondering if there was some way to address the situation and at the very least, offer prayers for the healing of all concerned.

So people reading this? If you're so inclined...please join me in sending prayers and loving thoughts to all of those affected by this tragedy.

Blessings.

Pam

[Savage]

I happen to think the only valid way to interpret the LoA is personally. By that I mean the only LoA-related question that makes sense is to ask yourself, "How am I attracting this event or situation into my reality?"

I disagree with those who suggest you can interpret the LoA relative to someone who isn't you, except for the sake of example or storytelling. So I would not say the gunmen or the students attracted this into their lives. To me that's an erroneous interpretation, much like saying the sun orbits the earth.

So here's how I would personally interpret this event in terms of the LoA:

Since I don't watch or read the news, the first I heard of this event was your forum post here. I then went to Yahoo News to look it up and saw the headline.

The shooting isn't the gunman's creation or the students' creation. It's my creation and mine alone. I attracted it. I manifested it. According to the LoA, it's the objective form of something subjective, something within my consciousness.

Erin and I spent the past few days in Sedona, Arizona and just returned a few hours ago. While we were there I did a lot of meditating and thinking, for which Sedona is well-suited. I had several realizations and personal breakthroughs. I was working through a lot of inner conflict in order to reach a new level of clarity.

I don't have time to go into details, but to me the shooting can easily be interpreted as a symbolic reflection of what I experienced over the weekend, killing off old parts of myself I was ready to let go of. Death is often symbolic of change. The death toll of 33 is also significant for me because it was my age when I started StevePavlina.com, which had a lot to do with my Sedona experience.

Now this is only one of many interpretations. You can also interpret the events from an objective perspective if you prefer. Or you can interpret it with heavy doses of emotion like the news does and label it a tragedy or a horror. But if you want to apply the LoA, I believe the most accurate interpretation for you is the one where you and you alone are the creator of this event. Imagine that reality is a dream and ask, "Why am I dreaming this?" This is your reality, so you manifested this. Why?

Again, I'm offering this up as one of many possible ways to interpret this event. You certainly have your pick of interpretations. Some will make you feel a certain way. Some will make you act a certain way. Some will have virtually no effect at all. In my opinion an interpretation that makes you feel bad and take no action is worthless. An interpretation that makes you feel good and take positive action is best. And other interpretations fall between those extremes.

Unfortunately our media usually presents such events so as to encourage us to select an intrepretation that makes us feel bad and take no action, followed by commercials that attempt to make us feel good and take action.

[shesaboutspirit]

Not sure if Steve will see this, but I've been curious about the law of attraction and prayer. Like if what I see is a reflection of my own consciousness, then should I be praying for myself instead of the people whom I perceive in this story as suffering? Or is praying even useful at all? Maybe I'm just talking to myself when I pray?

Hmmm. Also, I'm happy to see that the Pavlina's don't watch the news either. The only way I see things occasionally is because AOL is yet to provide a homepage without their headlines. Only rarely do I go into one of them for more info. When I do, I usually end up processing why I was drawn to it...and deal with that.

Pam

[Gary]

There are many forces in the universe and in man.

Attempting to explain all man's behavior using only one theory like the Law of Attraction would be insufficient. You couldn't explain all of geometry with one principle, or explain the forces between atoms using only the law of gravity.

Human beings are multi-dimensional beings almost to the point of being unfathomable to the logical mind.

[ethereal]

Karma.

I agree with Gary that it is too complex to try to understand, especially with some limited paradigm like LoA. But doing some past-life research into the incident will reveal the underpinnings of it.

[escapee]

The invention of gun/weapon and the legalization for its broad usage cannot go without any negative consequence.

Coalition to Stop Gun Violence / Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence

On January 15, 2007, the Educational Fund teamed up with Virginians Against Handgun Violence (VAHV) at their Advocacy Day in Richmond, Virginia. This annual event is held on Martin Luther King, Jr. Day and involves both adults and youth. 125 activists from all over the state spent the day speaking with legislators and explaining to them just how dangerous Virginia's gun show loophole is.

[CamC]

I thought this would come up.

If you truly believe you have no control, then anything can happen to you...

[Savage]

Originally Posted by shesaboutspirit

Not sure if Steve will see this, but I've been curious about the law of attraction and prayer. Like if what I see is a reflection of my own consciousness, then should I be praying for myself instead of the people whom I perceive in this story as suffering? Or is praying even useful at all? Maybe I'm just talking to myself when I pray?

Praying for yourself vs. praying for others is like the heart praying for its own health vs. praying for the health of the brain.

[Max Power]

Okay, so Steve believes he created this to resolve some conflicting issues within himself. Of course this opinion is formed from the subjective reality (SR) view point where Steve is the only conscious being here and his physicality and reality (including all of us) are merely projections from his own consciuosness

Technically he is God and everything and everyone is just part of the experience he is creating for himself. Steve actually created the massacre which is simply a sign of change (death is just change) again in the SR POV death isn't really anything to get upset about.

SR from a awareness POV is very interesting, but from an ego POV or a non believing POV it seems to borderline on madness. Pain, suffering and death are expected and welcomed (they must be otherwise they are denial) parts of the simulation of reality.

Why is the massacre sad? What about the 150,000 other people who died today? Isn't that sad? but it doesn't matter becuase it isn't on the news today?

I'm not criticising anyone or your beliefs, from a SR POV I'm wondering what else I have to say about this, from any other POV it's interesting to see how your beliefs reflect how you feel.

To the Max

[shesaboutspirit]

aaah...thank you Steve

[escapee]

I cant never make sense out of the application of pure SR model on the horrible incident that just happened . It's like using kindergarden math to solve the problem of advanced calculus.

[DiscoDan]

Sometimes terrible things happen to good people for no good reason. No matter how hard you try to only attract "positive" experiences, there will always be horrific experiences that happen without warning or cause.

This is life. And while I disagree with most of what Steve has posted (I cannot view this event as anything other than absolutely tragic), he's right in that we must not feel bad and take no action.

We must take action by realizing that our life can end at any time, that it can end quicker than you can snap your fingers. We must take action by appreciating that much more the friends and family who we take for granted far too often. And most importantly, we must take action by realizing how little time we have on this planet, and how each second, each breath, each laugh, each rose we see on the way to work, is a gift. We need to appreciate these things now, because we might not have the luxury of appreciating them tomorrow.

My heart goes out to the affected students and their families.

[Max Power]

SR is good at resolving the importance of everything.

Basically nothing truly matters. Like I said before, we may be shocked and saddened by 33 people getting killed, but what for the other 150,000? The number's bigger so it doesn't matter? Or the 33 were in one place at one time, so that's more important?

Even Napoleon Hill touched on the point of ultimately nothing matters and it doesn't. Surely if we have any belief in any life or existance before or after this physical life ends or begins, then what ever happens here is of somewhat little importance or at the very least must be taken in context of the overall grand scheme of things.

Still, there's no denying the pain of those affected.

SR seems to have too many 'get out of jail free cards' in it's deck. You can explain everything away with the 'it's all a simulation of my consciousness' angle.

However that may be the ultimate truth or the ultimate denial.

To the Max

[jojo]

...and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

As I was reading through Steve's response this riddle popped in to my head. Another layer is peeling back in my understanding. What has happened is a tragedy, I am not taking away from that. However, like it seems with a lot of people here I don't watch or read the news...so I could have quite easily continued on my day, week or year without ever knowing this situation happened. However, it was drawn in to my reality. A person at work was talking about it, so I checked one of the news sites. My first reaction was one of horror and sadness. I hate this kind of thing. But after thinking about the responses here it has made me ponder a little deeper...not why this situation happened...but why it came in to my reality??? Especially when there are plenty of events that happen throughout the world on a moment-by-moment basis that never actively enter my waking world.

Scary and also a difficult topic to go in to due to the obvious emotional pull of this specific event.

My prayers are with those who are affected by this.

And my thoughts are focusing on a greater understanding of the actual nature of my own reality.

Many smiles.

[DiscoDan]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Basically nothing truly matters. Like I said before, we may be shocked and saddened by 33 people getting killed, but what for the other 150,000? The number's bigger so it doesn't matter? Or the 33 were in one place at one time, so that's more important?

Because hundreds of thousands of people die every day, that means we aren't allowed mourn when innocent people die in a gruesome manner, especially when it's close to home?

While I recognize the countless victims of genocide in places such as Darfur have suffered equally (and probably more) gruesome deaths than those here in the United States today, that means that we shouldn't grieve when innocent people here are killed for no reason?

Originally Posted by Max Power

Even Napoleon Hill touched on the point of ultimately nothing matters and it doesn't. Surely if we have any belief in any life or existance before or after this physical life ends or begins, then what ever happens here is of somewhat little importance or at the very least must be taken in context of the overall grand scheme of things.

Even if you believe in things such as continuous, infinite reincarnation, there will never be another moment exactly like the one occurring right now. Never. Even if you go through hundreds of thousands of lives, there will never EVER be a moment exactly like this one. So what makes you so arrogant as to say the current moment bears little importance? To the one experiencing it, there can be no greater fulfillment than to take this moment, and to cherish the hell out of the wonders and joys it alone is capable of bringing.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by DiscoDan

Sometimes terrible things happen to good people for no good reason. No matter how hard you try to only attract "positive" experiences, there will always be horrific experiences that happen without warning or cause.

Only if you believe that to be true, from my experience. Not to say that "bad" things haven't happend to me in life, but they were always "for a reason", even if I didn't understand that reason at the time the event happened or how I attracted it to myself.

[DiscoDan]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Only if you believe that to be true, from my experience. Not to say that "bad" things haven't happend to me in life, but they were always "for a reason", even if I didn't understand that reason at the time the event happened or how I attracted it to myself.

Unfortunately, it is not so much that you attracted these conditions to yourself, as it is that you were UNBELIEVABLY LUCKY to have been born in a time and place in which both you and I can enjoy the comforts and luxuries of a modern existence.

Have you ever been outside of the US and Europe? In places like Darfur, people are killed literally for no reason, and NO ONE is willing to step in to stop it. In the Middle East, suicide bombers blow themselves up EVERY DAY to make political points, leaving dozens of innocent people laying bloodied in the streets. In China RIGHT NOW, 12 MILLION (!) people have no available drinking water. It's easy for us to say that bad things don't happen to good people from the heated comfort of our own bedrooms, and, yet, if we opened our eyes, we'd see these things happening all around the world every single day.

Because we do not have to suffer the same fate, shouldn't we do everything in our power to enjoy and appreciate how lucky we truly are?

[escapee]

To me the concept of nothing truely matters is more like an ultimate denial of our real biological existence or else there is absolutely no reason for Steve to build a website to educate a bunch of unconscious dust in this vast universe and to go on veganism to reduce the "suffering of animals" because nothing truely matters .

This site and forum may be meaningless to the universe and the "spiritual world", but it has its strong purpose in the 3D physical world called earth. We are here to live the best possible 3D life we can and to help others to do the same is truly a blessing of the universe.

PS : Surely when we are all dead by catastropic asteroid impact, nothing in the physical world (money, fame, and etc) truely matters.

[Erock]

Regardless of what caused or attracted the event, it is definitely a tragic day.

Erock

[Savage]

A purely objective interpretation would label this situation as no better or worse than any other event. Realize that any labels you assign (tragic, horrific, revealing, or otherwise) are a result of your personal, subjective interpretation.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by escapee

To me the concept of nothing truely matters is more like an ultimate denial of our real biological existence or else there is absolutely no reason for Steve to build a website to educate a bunch of unconscious dust in this vast universe and to go on veganism to reduce the "suffering of animals" because nothing truely matters .

This site and forum may be meaningless to the universe and the "spiritual world", but it has its strong purpose in the 3D physical world called earth. We are here to live the best possible 3D life we can and to help others to do the same is truly a blessing of the universe.

Think of it like a dream. That's the best way to understand subjective reality, in my opinion. Even though other "characters" in your dream may be reflections of your own consciousness/awareness (including the "character" that you perceive to be "you"), you don't treat them like garbage. Everything is real, because if it wasn't, then what you perceive to be "you" (your in-dream body) would be as equally un-real, which means you would be basically saying you are not real, which would probably not be such a good belief/thought to hold (self-destruction, anyone?).

Ultimately though, I can relate to what you are saying. From the perspective you are seeing it from (or seem to be seeing it from), when Steve says something like what he said above, it sounds like Steve is saying that he -- “his” individual consciousness and “his” physical body -- is the only one that matters, which is in fact the flawed way to look at it, because Steve doesn’t see himself as his physical body or as an individual consciousness, he sees him self as “consciousness”, which means he can see "himself" in everything that exists in physical reality, or rather, anything that is a reflection of consciousness (do correct me if I am wrong, Steve).

Unfortunately it seems that in order to fully understand that perspective -- the perspective of non-duality/unity -- you have to experience it. For a long time I tried to understand subjective reality as a mental concept, and while I believe I got a pretty good grasp on it, without “crossing the threshold” so to speak and moving into the realm of non-duality, you’ll forever be seeing subjective reality through an objective lens, which means you’ll never really truly understand it (much like trying to understand what water feels like without ever putting your hand in it -- you'll never really "get it").

I’d definitely like to make that transition at some point, but for now I’m busy enough learning more about the Law of Attraction and how it works, which is kind of mind-bending in itself if you think about it. I.e. If what you think about/believe is true for you in your experience -- and your experience is the only one you can perceive and know for sure exists -- your thoughts about the LoA could be making that true for you, but then that also implies that if things work like that, there is something similar to the LoA (or maybe the LoA, it’s hard to tell) working beneath the surface of everything. But that’s kind of an endless path that will just confuse the bejesus out of you.

What I find interesting, though, is that Steve can use subjective reality/the LoA as his primary belief system while still using other beliefs (he spoke about that here, here, and also here). My brain (or consciousness... whichever) is yet to figure out how to believe 1 system is primary (subjective reality) while still believing that other beliefs are also feasible, since that would require a different primary belief that goes something along the lines of "all belief systems/thoughts are feasible and are merely lenses at looking at 'what is'". Suffice to say my various beliefs are still fighting it out and are yet to learn to work together and say, "ok, ok, you all have valid points, let's all work together". Have I confused you yet? Hehe.

Originally Posted by escapee

PS : Surely when we are all dead by catastropic asteroid impact, nothing in the physical world (money, fame, and etc) truely matters.

If the physical world/realm/reality is a reflection of the state of consciousness, if everything in the physical world/realm/reality was dead, that probably won't bode too well for consciousness. If it's just all of humanity being dead and the world (as in earth/the universe) + flora and fauna remain, then that's probably just consciousness realising world peace.

[JonathanBrowne]

I think people have been taking the Law of Attraction to points where it starts go into the realm of delussional fantasy. Yes, it is possible we affect the universe with our thoughts... quantam physics, blah blah blah. However I believe other people simply exist in our reality regardless of our thinking our beliefs or anything else. In my opinion, a key point of the law of attraction is that it does not work to control people, only energy. You can influence a person, but you can not change the will of another human conciousness unless they accept your attempts to change it, because conciousness has the power to decide.

I think of LOA as being a sort of homing beacon. You are given inspiration and guidance to what you are thinking about, and a whole bunch of other people who are neccessary for that may also be given inspiration to help you facilitate that. How many times have you waited to leave the house thinking damnit I feel like im missing something. Perhaps that is the universe indicating to you that you need to wait a little longer to leave for some event to occur. I don't however think that you are required to heed any of these indications. That's why I think there has to be a time delay for everything you try to manifest. The things you manifest can't break the other physical laws of the universe. They can certainly use them in ways no one would ever expect, like for instance a plane does.

However, if a person decided they are going to shoot you in the head... and hes got a good aim, and you can't get away, you are going to get shot. Simple as that. You might be able to somehow manifest a way out of the situation, but its you against the will of another person.

[Gary]

I see a bit of debate here on whether something matters or doesn't matter. It might be good to throw in a bit of "thin-slicing" to clarify some differences.

What does it mean for something to “matter”

When we ponder the abstract concept of whether something “doesn’t really matter” or not, what does that mean.

I find that it usually relates to the impact it has on our emotions.

33 people died in an incident today and all of a sudden it matters to certain people.
It didn’t matter to someone elsewhere in the world.
Numerous people die in an event in another country and it doesn’t affect us emotionally. Then we say it doesn’t matter to me.

My observation is that certain events matter depending upon whether we react emotionally or not.

In the case of today’s incident certain people are saddened and in mourning. For them the events of the day matter. It’s personal experience and their emotions have personal meanings.

Another perspective.

To hold today’s event in a larger context of life and time frame of 1000 years it will become small. It will hardly draw anyone’s attention. It will not register noticeably in emotional stories of the century. Today’s great swell of sadness and mourning will be drawn back into the sea of emotions. In this context it will seem not to matter.

People will be changed, they will respond, and some may be inspired to make courageous change. The ocean of life will be affected. But it may not seem to stand out emotionally against this large back drop of time and space. It will appear that it doesn’t matter. In this context we are not emotionally moved.

What does it mean for something to matter? That depends on how each person defines that word, and the point of view they are standing in when they use it. What backdrop to they use to put the event into perspective.

Today’s event can matter and not matter at the same time. We can look at it from both points of view and draw two different conclusions. Both appear true, and yet both are just opinions.

Sometimes I see people communicating in a common language separated by different meanings. They end up disagreeing because they use the same word with different meanings and different point of view.

The word “matter” in this context is a vague and abstract word. It has little distinction as to what it means and yet we throw it around with great power.

For people to come to an agreement they will not only have to use the same words with similar with meanings, they will have to understand each others point of view, and frame of reference.

[Max Power]

An event has happened.

Everyone is reacting differently to it.

Steve sees it as a reflection or resolution in his reality of his own creation.

I don't really see it as anything that amazing, that's why I make reference to 'what about the other 150,000 people who die today' you don't mourne them. But because it's 'closer to home' it's more important?

It's different for everyone, depending on your belief system. There is only right and wrong when you're trying to force your belief system onto someone else.

To the Max

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by escapee

The invention of gun/weapon and the legalization for its broad usage cannot go without any negative consequence.

Coalition to Stop Gun Violence / Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence

This is an American problem, not a gun problem. We don't ban swimming pools because people drown in them, and it wouldn't work with guns either. criminals who want them can get them, just like they do with drugs and anythinh else.

The Swiss are armed to the teeth and always ready for war. The average Swiss citizen knows how to use a fully automatic weapon, yet they don't have this school shooting thing going on. There's something about America, and it boggles my mind, because we're the last people who should be disgruntled, because we have the highest standard of living in the world. Even the poorsest Americans are better off than most of the people on this planet.

I think the answer to this event is simple. No one attracted this but the shooter himself. Some people are just messed up and can't handle life and it's heartaches. This guy was obviously one of those types for whatever reason. he snapped, he exercised his free will, and killed. The people at the University couldn't catch him for at least two hours, and had they done so, far less peopel would have died. I'm not judging them because I don't know how it all went down, but it's a shame someone didn't get this guy, and had someone else been armed, instaed of being in a "gun free" zone, he could have been taken out before he killed all of those other people.

These shooting always happen in gun free zones for a reason, The shooters know that they have time before someone starts shooting back.

I agree that IM/LoA alone cna't explain this event. there are far more thimngs going on than any of us are even aware of. Our senses are limited, and we can't even see, hear or smell most of whats around us, much less come up with a single, direct concrete answer as to why tragedies happen.

[escapee]

This is an American problem, not a gun problem.

Yes, I agree

Just to clarify I wasn't blaming the gun control solely for the problem, every creation ( whether it's an automobile, airplane, machine gun and etc ) comes with a consequence or risk factor that something may go terribly wrong. The post is more intended to support the criticism of SR or LOA on the shooting incident. Certainly, one must also consider the cultural background, mental health, discipline, and etc of the community with respect to the incident. Otherwise, what's the need to have nuclear free north korea if it's solely an ownership problem ? haha

The Swiss and their Guns explains it better.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I don't have time to go into details, but to me the shooting can easily be interpreted as a symbolic reflection of what I experienced over the weekend, killing off old parts of myself I was ready to let go of. Death is often symbolic of change. The death toll of 33 is also significant for me because it was my age when I started StevePavlina.com, which had a lot to do with my Sedona experience.

What bothers me is in viewing the shooting as a reflection and symbolic sounds like a way to distance yourself from it. If you draw the symbolic analogy, you have death of inocent people which is then death of some part of you that is also quite fine and also doesn't need killing off. Those kids did not need to be killed. Your symbolicness of letting go of something about yourself must also fit that way - that those parts of you didnt NEED to be killed. And what part of you did this killing off of your parts? Some jealous part of you that wasn't able to find better ways to express?

I find the more I feel from the SR POV, the more I find emotions tied to health of the world and hearing of needless death hurts my expanded sense of self.

So, if I take your suggestion and ask: why did I put that in my reality? I'd say becuase I'm still very disfunctional and having people die that don't need to is like cancer or some other destructive force. In this way I am still honouring those that died since I'm acknowledging their death was needless and sympathize. Big mistakes going on in my self if that's a reflection.

Otherwise, your view is kind of discounting their deaths as, in some grand sceme it doesn't matter or it's really a dream and is fine. That's not accepting, that's denial and distancing. Their deaths matter tons - everyone that dies needlessly has impact on the whole, regardless of what trick you try to put on it to say it's fine, just symbolic so you can feel good. Yuk, my stomache is hurting now.

THere's a difference in feeling good and being able to be empathetic. Empathy is much more healing than trying to find an interpretation that allows you to feel good. I would say, I'll feel good by being able to let my feelings exist in natural response to this, or this is to say empathy and compassion are my "feel good" states - even though I'm sad and angery and feel defeated.

Again, I'm offering this up as one of many possible ways to interpret this event. You certainly have your pick of interpretations. Some will make you feel a certain way. Some will make you act a certain way. Some will have virtually no effect at all. In my opinion an interpretation that makes you feel bad and take no action is worthless. An interpretation that makes you feel good and take positive action is best. And other interpretations fall between those extremes.

Again, I'm not sure that we should be trying to trick ourselves into feeling good about this. It's more important to be able to feel what ever comes up, and be able to move through the feelings. Although, I mysefl aren't too good at moving through the feelings. But an interpretation that makes you feel good? If I feel good about this I doubt I'd do anything different. Feeling the blatent bad feelings that come up is the correct attitude, imo, and being moved by it and being able to not attach to these feelings. Just as much as how aweful the world gets to be everywhere.

However, it's too much for me often. I have caught myself crying for a plant that wasn't watered properly - I get really sensitive with an SR POV. Even if I blocked out all news, when I really key into a SR POV, I ache an aweful lot for the whole world. I get to feel global pain. It's too much, I have to pull back and regroup, I have to induldge in seperateness objective reality and pretend they's a different world from me. I try to take on global pain with the attitude of, let me feel this so that others don't have to - Buddhist stuff, you know?

[absvan]

Different people have different opinions here which is absoutely fine. I am of the opinion that LOA/IM cannot explain everything that happens.

But no matter what your reality is or what you believe your reality to be, everything happens for a reason. If this incident does not bother you, then you can say a silent prayer for the students who died and for their families and carry on with your life.

If it matters, then you need to ask yourself - "What is this moment telling me? Why has this happened and what can I learn from this?".

For me, this incident has showed that we need to appreciate each moment and to live in the now cos you dont know what the next moment or tomorrow can bring to you. From a broader perspective, this incident has showed me that the rules of using guns needs to be changed.....or may be I will know more when the cops find out why this happened......

[Akashic_Librarian]

I am with Steve. I to am "killing off" alot of things about myself that are old, disempowering and useless to me. Negative in some cases. Thanks for the perspective change Steve. I was starting to get roped into the news again...damned Media...I almost had a bad day because of that report.

Steve is right here. Choosing a negative reaction is stupidty on high. Choose a postive one and live your life in a better way.