PATHS Refund Nightmare

[impaul99]

As some of you may know, I am one of the people that decided to give PATHS a try. After just under 3 weeks of testing I was not getting any results from the product except the placebo effect I created by accident. If you guys read my entries in the PATHS thread, you'll know what I mean.

On March 29th I decided to ask for a refund because I did not receive any results from the product and did not want to continue using it. I wanted to share with you the process I went through.

Firstly, they require that you print out a form and fill it out by hand and then fax to their head office. I thought this was a bit weird, but whatever. I filled it out and sent it to them last week.

I did not get any reply from them until yesterday (April 4th) and they told me that they will NOT give me a refund for the following reasons:

1) I purchased 2 modules, not just 1. The guarantee only covers 1 module.

My Thoughts: Huh!? I mean I agree that the guarantee says one module, so give me a refund for the setup fee and one module! What, the guarantee is void the minute you try out more then one module?

Be warned. If you buy PATHS and you decide to try more then one module they might refuse your refund for the WHOLE THING! (not just the extra module)

2) I only used the product for 17 days, not 30 days.

My Thoughts: Ok, so apparently you can only get a refund on day 30. If you apply on day 29 or before, they'll refuse. If you apply on day 31, they'll refuse. ????? I didn't get results for 2.5 weeks and I wanted a refund. What's wrong with that?! I asked for a refund on March 29th, because I am moving right now and might not have access to a fax for a bit, so I wanted to get it all done before I started moving.

3) They claim that I *repeatedly* admitted that I wasn't using Spirullina.

My Thoughts: Uhm, I have NEVER, in any correspondence with them told them that I wasn't using Spirulina. The only place I ever mentioned this was in this forum. So, be warned people. THey are in these forums recording what everyone is saying to use as an excuse not to give a refund.

So, if you're in these forums posting ANY success you had with the product, be warned that they might use that info against you if you say "I didn't get results from the product."

Bottom line is this. I bought the product to test it out on two modules. Losing weight and gaining muscle. For just under 2 weeks I used the software WITHOUT Spirulina, because my diet is already pretty healthy and I wanted to see if I lose ANY weight with the software without adding a supplement to my diet. Spirulina has the effect of SUPPRESSING APPETITE and CONTROLLING SUGAR LEVELS in your blood, so OBVIOUSLY if you pack 4 pills a day of the stuff you'll have some effect in your weight after 30 days. I wanted to see if the product produced any results WITHOUT supplementation.

After 2 weeks I had no response. Then I began getting results (or so I thought) on the sleep side waking up at 8:30am, which I thought was my wake up time with PATHS. As soon as I got "results" I began taking SPirullina as directed, 4x510mg pills a day.

On my refund form I told them that, but they said I wasn't taking SPIRULINA because they read this forum.


Conclusion:

I have replied to them, and am waiting to hear back if they will give me a refund. It's been more than 24hours since I last heard from them.

Bottom line is that there are companies out there that give Guarantees on their products because they stand behind their products and for the few people (1-2%) that the product doesn't work, they DON"T WANT their money. It's better to give their money back so the worst that can happen is the person tells their friends "I tried it, it didn't work for me, but it might work for you! Give it a try!"

Then there are those companies that have a GUARANTEE but their intention right from the get-go is NOT to give any money back, ever. They create a guarantee that can be easily declined based on the rules they specify. ie. Did you IMMEDIATELY start taking 2000mg of Spirulina the DAY you started using the product? No? Good luck, no refund! Did you only buy one module? No? You bought two? three? oh boy, four?! HAHAH, no refund for YOU!

Anyway, obviously this company's guarantee is not there to make people happy. It's there to get you to buy their product thinking you will not have any risk, but in reality after they take your money, you'll never see it again.

Like I mentioned in my other posts, I don't know if this product works for others or if it's just a placebo. I *AM* convinced that it didn't work for me at all. It did nothing. I tried getting my money back, but they refused. Just wanted to let everyone know in case you're thinking of buying, or are already on a trial. If you're on a trial, you might not want to post your results in here because they'll use it against you if you get no results after 30 days.

If you haven't bought yet, READ the guarantee and make sure you follow the instructions exactly. Take spirulina from day 1, only buy 1 module, on day 7 (1 week) if you're not getting results email them and let them know, and if after 30 days you still get no results ask for a refund on DAY 30 ONLY. Even then, I don't know if they'll honor the Guarantee. There might be some other fine print I didn't see.

I'll let you guys know if they finally reply to my email and approve my refund.

Take care guys, I gotta get back to moving!

[Lychee]

Thanks for sharing. I hope everything works out for you. Dishonest companies will get nowhere.

[annie]

Having owned several companies with guarantees....I can tell you, they just shot themself in the foot. Especially with how many people read this forum and have view the PATHS threads.

A word to PATHS employees/owners/whoever is reading this board.....If you give Paul a refund, you may redeem yourself. If you don't, you're soured now.

Paul, is the case closed? If they contact you and offer to refund it, will you post it on this board?

I just hate to see companies screwed because they are idiots I'm sure there are those that think...no biggie, I mean how many people look at Steve Pavilina's forum....LOL

As a joke, I suggested we have a PATHS forum on here because of the high amount of threads and posts....Because of that, Intention Manifestation is no longer my "top" forum to look in. I haven't been that interested in the PATHS threads and they were literally taking over....in my eyes anyway.

But thanks for the heads up, if I was slightly curious....I'm not now because I'm afraid I would forget to have it postmarked on the right day...ya know?

[Dani]

I was considering trying paths out myself, and was saving up for it.

This just sealed it as a no for me also. Will put the money elsewhere instead.

If they aren't going to hand the money back immediately then it looks they aren't sure about it quality and effectiveness.

So by refusing to refund one customer, they already lost at least 2. That's a net loss in pretty much any economics book.

Hope they are happy for the publicity.

Thanks for sharing this impaul99.

[Volunteer]

How disappointing! Did you put the purchase on a credit card. Is it PATHs who is responsible for refunding your money or is it an affiliate?

Caveat emptor!

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by annie

Paul, is the case closed? If they contact you and offer to refund it, will you post it on this board?

If they offer me a refund, I will let you guys know. As always, I just want to be honest with everyone here. I don't have anything to gain by making them seem bad. I just wanted to let everyone know about this so they learn from my lesson. For some, the $200-$300 may be a LOT of money, so just a heads up what to expect.

Ok, back to moving.

BTW, some advice. Before carrying a treadmill down the stairs, make sure there's nothing on the staircase.

[Angela]

Paul, I'm disappointed that they didn't give you a refund, BUT:
did you read the terms of the guarantee? They're pretty clearly stated on the website, and you did post publicly, where you knew Aaron was also a member, that you were not honoring the terms. I wish they had given you a refund anyway (and I hope they still will), but they are not behaving dishonorably by requiring you to live up to your side of the bargain.

The terms of this guarantee are as follows:

• You must watch your theater presentation at least once a week.
• You must take at least 2000 mg of spirulina supplement everyday.
• If you are not seeing results in the first week, you must contact us so that we can make any necessary alterations to your theater presentation.

If after 30 days of following these instructions, you have not experienced the benefits of PATHS, please fill out the form and email or fax it in for a 100% refund.

It's also stated that the guarantee is for one module for one month only. In my opinion, this is unclear enough to warrant a refund for you for your set-up and one month of one of your modules, rather than giving you a goose egg because you ordered an extra. Even so, you were quite public about not using the spirulina, which is listed on their site and all over this one as being necessary. Aside from goodwill (a perfectly good reason for them to give you a refund), why would you think you're entitled to a refund if you openly declared that you weren't honoring the terms?

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Angela

Aside from goodwill (a perfectly good reason for them to give you a refund), why would you think you're entitled to a refund if you openly declared that you weren't honoring the terms?

Because the only "term" I didn't honour was not using Spirulina from day 1. I eventually started using it in the dose recommeded, but I specifically didn't want to use it for the first part because (1) Spirulina is not something I stock in my house regularly so I needed some time to go to the store and buy some, and (2) I did my research and I saw that it CAN cause weight loss because it suppresses appetite and regular blood sugar levels. Because I was doing the WEIGHT LOSS module (not business, or something else that wouldn't be affected by SPirulina) I wanted to prove to myself that PATHS works WITHOUT supplements, but obviously it doesn't. Imagine if you went to hypnotist that tells you that he will hypnotize you and make you lose weight, but on your way out of the appointment he tells you "Oh by the way, you also have to take these supplements, eat healthy, drink lots of water, and exercise daily in order for my hypnosis to work."

So if the only reason I didn't lose weight is because I didn't take 2000mg of spirulina for the first part of the program then obviously it's the spirulina that causes weight loss, not PATHS, which further proves that the product doesn't work for me.

Every other "term" of the guarantee I followed. I told PATHS that the thing didn't work, and it took 4 days to get a reply. Anyway, my intention posting this thread was to make people aware of the Guarantee "terms" so others don't fall into the same trap I did, because others might not realize that NOT taking 2000mg of SPirulina from day 1 voids their guarantee etc. I'd be willing to bet that most people on PATHS didn't run to the store 3 minutes after buying the product to get SPIRULINA. I just want them to know that if they admit that on these forums, know that PATHS is watching. So if you say "I just signed up for PATHS on Monday" and then on Friday you post "I just picked up some SPIRULINA today." they'll know.

What I find funny is that they actually took time to go through these forums after I sent my Refund Request and look through my posts to see if I mentioned taking Spirulina or not. Anywayz.....

[impaul99]

By the way. Near the end of my trial, I think I figured out why PATHS works for some people. I am pretty sure I can reproduce the results for myself using a different product that I already own. Once I finish moving I'm going to run a trial and let you guys know.

[Savage]

Why not simply call your credit card company and ask to do a reversal on the charge? To me it sounds like you honored the terms well enough to warrant a refund and that they're just playing games with you. Credit card providers require that merchants honor their posted refund policies. I'd say it's likely they'll side with you in this case, as they're heavily biased in favor of the consumer anyway.

[Joe826]

Ouch. Bad form. Even if the terms weren't followed to the T in this case, that's just terrible business.

[shant121]

Paul, were you on multiple modules? i was reading another forum thread and someone had posted the terms there:

This guarantee applies only to first time users on Sleep plus one Module for one month. Does not apply to renewals, multiple modules, Premium and Platinum packages.

[m0vingon]

Sorry you're having trouble with the refund, Paul. IMO if a product works, it shouldn't be contingent on the consumer to be supplementing etc.

Frankly, I find it quite reprehensible that information that you posted here was used against you during the refund process. If they're watching what people are saying on this forum that closely, I'm VERY uncomfortable with that. In fact, I'm canceling my "subscription" right now simply because this whole thing feels worse and worse to me as it goes on.

I hope things work out with you refund. Steve has great advice about contacting the credit card company.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Why not simply call your credit card company and ask to do a reversal on the charge? To me it sounds like you honored the terms well enough to warrant a refund and that they're just playing games with you. Credit card providers require that merchants honor their posted refund policies. I'd say it's likely they'll side with you in this case, as they're heavily biased in favor of the consumer anyway.

I wanted to give them an opportunity to respond to me first, but I did tell them I would do that if I did not get a refund or at least a better explanation why.

I just checked my email and they did decide to refund me. Their email states that they still believe I did not meet their terms, but they will offer me a refund in this case in the interest of saving time and because they don't want to tarnish their near-perfect reputation with the credit card provider.

They asked me in the email that if I decide to mention on here that I did get a refund, that I have the courtesy of letting people know those are the reasons for the refund, not because I met the terms in their policy. I guess they want people to know that the guarantee terms must be followed in the future without ambiguity or they will not offer a refund, which makes sense. So, as a courtesy, for anyone on this forum using PATHS or thinking about trying out PATHS, please make sure you thoroughly read and follow the instructions in the Guarantee or you might not be eligable for a refund should the product fail to work in your specific case. Don't assume that this is a 30-Day "no questions asked" policy like I did. You MUST follow the instructions exactly.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by shant121

Paul, were you on multiple modules? i was reading another forum thread and someone had posted the terms there:

Yes, I tried 2, and would have been happy with refund for setup fee + 1. I tried Weight loss and muscle gain. I didn't supplement with Spirulina because I wanted to test results without the supplementation since they obviously can skew results. If I was doing a business one or any other module that obviously wouldn't be affected by a nutritional supplement, I would have used Spirulina from day 1. Anyway, they've offered me a refund after all, as I posted above.

[KevinESM]

I just about fell out of my chair laughing!

Yes, spirulina skews the results of how PATHS works.

Just like putting gasoline in a car skews the results of how a car works.




Oh, I can't stand it!

[KevinESM]

Originally Posted by impaul99

I just checked my email and they did decide to refund me. Their email states that they still believe I did not meet their terms, but they will offer me a refund in this case in the interest of saving time and because they don't want to tarnish their near-perfect reputation with the credit card provider.

They asked me in the email that if I decide to mention on here that I did get a refund, that I have the courtesy of letting people know those are the reasons for the refund, not because I met the terms in their policy.

Paul,

Is this really what they said? Or is it your interpretation of what they said?

I have been an affiliate with the company for over a year. As I stated in another thread, I have over 100 customers that I have signed up on PATHS and out of that 3 of them requested refunds.

What you state above just does not sound like them.



Kevin

[Shaden]

It looks like Rocket_Surgery in all his infinite (and loud) wisdom had a point.

We need more warriors like him

[mkidd]

@ Kevin: Why would Paul lie re: what they said? I think he's actually been pretty gracious in admitting he misunderstood that it was not a "100% no questions" asked guarantee, and it makes sense that in this case the company is refunding even though he did not follow his end to a T. It would be foolish of them not to, and now they can reject refund requests with a clear conscience if people don't follow the instructions.

I've been following these threads from day 1 and it's been interesting. I have to say though, while it does not bother me that affiliates post here as long as it's transparent, and your analogy re: the car/gasoline and PATHS/spirulina is an apt one, but I find your whole tone very annoying.

[dor]

Originally Posted by mkidd

I've been following these threads from day 1 and it's been interesting. I have to say though, while it does not bother me that affiliates post here as long as it's transparent, and your analogy re: the car/gasoline and PATHS/spirulina is an apt one, but I find your whole tone very annoying.

I would hate to harp on this again but subliminal have a well documented placebo effect - therefore, taking a supplements that might have some health benefits, the power of suggestion, and illusary placebo could be enough for PATHs to appear to work.

also note how a paths 'affiliate' Grace Hustler,tries to hook people on trying paths for 3 months, well past the gurantee.

Since this is about PATHs and trust, I have considerable amount of evidence that Aaron tried to mine my personal data on this site -and that evidence also indicates he has the ability and actually might come on here as multiple users - in other words many of those 'customers' with 4-5 posts praising paths are actually aaron.

As evidenced in the other threads he clearly demonstrated he doesn't even know what a controlled experiement is - so are we to trust him when he says he's using quantum physics to 'download' messages into your subconscious.

Please everyone, read up on subliminal tape scams- I think this is just an updated version.
Subliminal Tapes: Self-Help Snake Oil (A Scientific Perspective)

[Angela]

So they refunded you the whole thing, not just the setup + one module?

[thestral]

Thanks for this, Paul. I was tempted to try PATHs, but I am leery of companies who have weird refund policies. It seems if a company really believed in its products, it would simply be refund-guaranteed. I'll stick to what I've been using, it is working

[Angela]

Originally Posted by thestral

Thanks for this, Paul. I was tempted to try PATHs, but I am leery of companies who have weird refund policies. It seems if a company really believed in its products, it would simply be refund-guaranteed. I'll stick to what I've been using, it is working

I must point out again, Erin offers no refund guarantee at all, and she seems to really believe in her product. Are you leery of her? Many service providers, particularly in areas of soft personal assistance -- intuitive, hypnosis (stop smoking), physical therapies, adult education -- operate on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, and for most, the provider expects that the purchaser must do his part in order to reap the benefits, he can't sit back and take no responsibility.

I think PATHS is doing more than most such providers, even Erin, to maximize the experience of their product and minimize the financial risk. They consult, tweak, and work with you if you're not seeing results in your first month. They will give you a refund for set-up plus one module if you follow their terms, which are not unreasonable, and which impaul99 freely admits he did not do. They refunded him anyway.

However, if your intuition or analytical skills tell you this is not the product for you, then you're right! Don't spend your money on it. For me, it is well worth the money I've spent already, and I'll keep paying the $35 a month until it makes sense to stop.

[thestral]

Originally Posted by Angela

I must point out again, Erin offers no refund guarantee at all, and she seems to really believe in her product. Are you leery of her? Many service providers, particularly in areas of soft personal assistance -- intuitive, hypnosis (stop smoking), physical therapies, adult education -- operate on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, and for most, the provider expects that the purchaser must do his part in order to reap the benefits, he can't sit back and take no responsibility.

I said weird policies. Erin's is straightforward. It is companies who have policies that say "Well, you can have a refund only if you bought said product on a day that was an odd number in a month that began with an S, while wearing flip-flops and an orange hat." Any company that does not say straight out, EXACTLY, in layman's terms, what their policies are, to me, give off a non-trustworthy vibe. Either have a return policy or don't.

Then again, I'm a businesswoman by nature, spent seven years working specifically in customer care and happiness for an international company and have been very successful in pleasing even the most peeved-off customers ever. I have quite a skill at it. So I might be somewhat biased.

[Pagoda]

There is an awful lot of blame going around here and it is doing no one any good.

Time for everyone to take a little more responsibility and give each other a little benefit of doubt. (Including you Steve.)

I understand PATHS is a business and they need to protect themselves, but perhaps they should give their customers a little more slack when it comes to refunds.

Paul, you might want to cut them a little slack too. Starting a thread titled "PATHS Refund Nightmare" isn't going to help anybody. You have added fuel to the fire of people who have a natural fear of evil businesses taking advantage of them. Perhaps you could tone down that title now, you got your refund.

And maybe we can all get back to putting our energies into what works for each of us.

[Angela]

What's weird about their policy? This is the whole thing, and it is very straight-forward in laymen's terms:

For those that are not sure PATHS will work for them, we offer a guarantee on a one Module for one-month package only.

The terms of this guarantee are as follows:

- You must watch your theater presentation at least once a week.
- You must take at least 2000 mg of spirulina supplement everyday.
- If you are not seeing results in the first week, you must contact us so that we can make any necessary alterations to your theater presentation.

If after 30 days of following these instructions, you have not experienced the benefits of PATHS, please fill out the form and email or fax it in for a 100% refund.

[BelleEnchanted]

I've decided to sign up too, so I've been looking at the refund policy. Just wanted to add this to Angela's post.

Originally Posted by impaul99

so apparently you can only get a refund on day 30. If you apply on day 29 or before, they'll refuse. If you apply on day 31, they'll refuse. ?????

Actually, this is what the refund policy says:

"The request form must be received within 10 days of the end of your first 30 days of using PATHS."

So you don't have to ask for your refund right on Day 30 or lose your rights to a refund. You have ten days. Also, you don't have to fax in your request. You can also email them the form (which is linked to from their Terms & Conditions page).

Belle

[Savage]

Perhaps a simpler refund policy would be to require customers to explain the rules of Fizzbin.

[mkidd]

I do think they need to clarify that if you buy more than 1 module you have voided your guarantee. That part is not clear. I could see myself sign up and domultiple modules with the expectation that if it did not work I'd be refunded the setup plus 1 module.

[Grace.Haeusler]

Originally Posted by dor

"also note how a paths 'affiliate' Grace Hustler,tries to hook people on trying paths for 3 months, well past the gurantee."

Two weeks ago I switched out of a module and chose the "Insight and Intuition Module". I have noticed some very cool results. I am aware more than ever who is calling me on the phone, and/or if my son or daughter need me to call them, etc. The latest insight I had was when I read your post misspelling my last name (which is correctly spelled Haeusler), and I intuitively knew that you were seeking my attention.

As I read your post the first thing that popped into my head was when I was eight years old this little boy also wanted my attention. I was ignoring him, and so he punched me in the arm and ran away.

The next thought that came to me was when I was in high school and running for 11th grade class vice president, One of my posters was defamed in the same manner (crossing out my name Haeusler and Writing in Hustler, similar to what you have done) I found out later who had defamed my poster, and 7 years later This same man asked me to marry him!

I am not saying you are "in love" with me, far from it, but I know you have no ill will towards me. So why the name calling?

I know you like me, so if you want my attention just ask me a sincere, honest question, and I will be happy to respond.

Last night I wrote back to Kevs' question about why I recommend staying on the modules minimum Three months. Why don't you go take another look. You can easily reach all my posts from my profile page.