Byron Katie's the Work and LoA

[Velvet]

Here's a question for anyone familiar with Byron Katie's The Work:

How do you square the concepts of Law of Attraction--which accept "desire" as a positive state--with the Byron/Buddhist/Taoist idea that desire creates suffering?

I've been mulling this one over for months.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Velvet

Here's a question for anyone familiar with Byron Katie's The Work:

How do you square the concepts of Law of Attraction--which accept "desire" as a positive state--with the Byron/Buddhist/Taoist idea that desire creates suffering?

I've been mulling this one over for months.

I think they both actually are tyring to say the same thing.

I'm not expert but some the LoA info states one must also allow that which you desire. Also the Buddhist idea is to not be attached to your desires but they don't directly say you can't have desires (I think) - it's the attachment to desires that feed suffering.

It is funny, I've heard in the LoA stuff "we'd manifest imediatly if we had infinte patients" or "we can get whatever we want, as long as you don't want it" And also in Buddhist stuff - "attachment is the cause of suffering, even the attachment to not wanting to be attached to desires can cause suffering" (or something like that)

[Angela]

I haven't gotten from Byron Katie that she believes desire creates suffering. What I see in her teachings is that holding onto a desire to get something is what inhibits freedom. As Wolfgang says, it's the attachment, not the desire.

The folks that think that the Law of Attraction is all about GETTING STUFF (or getting people to do stuff we want them to do) are the folks that are missing some of the best things about the LoA -- thinking thoughts that feel good when you think them; aligning who you are with what you want; looking carefully at your desires to see what lies at their depths and then going for the golden heart of your desire rather than being attached to a temporary manifestation of it.

What I get from Byron Katie, and the best part of the LoA, is about surrender -- letting go! I think the Bhuddists and Taoists can get behind that, as well.

[thestral]

What people are missing in LoA is that it is not the end result, the "thing" but it is the path to that thing. I read that our desires do not appear until they have been 99% created on another level. It is that 99% time where we grow inside, become aligned and realize that we are already deliriously happy even without said item. That 1% is like an eyeblink before we send yet another request out and again grow spiritually.

The word "desire" can be both good and bad. When desire is painful, then you suffer. But when desire is joy, you are clearly on the right path.

[Velvet]

Yeah, both of you, Angela and Wolfgang, make good points.

I guess, personally, where I'm stuck is in a situation like this:

"I want to be married/have a boss that respects me/a record deal....Wait, is that TRUE?...How do I know I'd be happier with a husband/nice boss/record deal than not?..."

And then my original desire gets kind of trampled by rationality. But the rationality doesn't feel good, it makes me feel flat.

On the opposite side, if I give in to wanting those things, I worry that I am deluding myself, chasing unicorns.

I think I have some resistance here.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by Angela

I haven't gotten from Byron Katie that she believes desire creates suffering.

Actually, she does have this whole essay about "the thought that kicks you out of heaven":


The thought that kicks you out of heaven could be "I'd be a little more comfortable if I had a pillow." Or it could be "I'd be happier if my partner were here."

If even just wanting a pillow kicks you out of heaven, what about wanting a better job, a feeling of security, etc. etc.

[Angela]

Velvet, those are all fabulous desires, and not delusional, by any means! But it does look like you've built up some suffering around them, like:

"How do I know I'd be happier with those things than without?" Well, that's attachment; in other words, you have prerequisites to Being Happy (or Joyful), which may be your heart's desire, underneath all the other stuff. Please pardon my presumption, but it sounds to me like another of your heart's desires is to Be Inspired and Be Inspiring. How about having those things right now? Being Joyful, Inspired and Inspiring, I mean. To have those things, you generate them. Right now, not later when you've got your record deal or find a potential spouse. In fact, the things you really want to Be sound like fantastic paths to lay for allowing a loving husband or lucrative and creative record deal to be attracted to you!

Maybe you could practice surrender (the resistance) and generation (the ways of being you really desire, underneath the physical manifestations) at the same time ... and still have your desires for the "stuff" you want. You can have it all!

(Inspiring is something you're already being, by the way.)

[Truefire]

I came up against the same thing. The law of attraction just didn't jive with my other beliefs. I found this link in my random daily trolling, The Secret: The Spirituality of Narcissism | Stuart Davis. Stuart Davis is a Buddhist, who is an artist for a living, selling his music(which is awesome, download his free tracks! or youtube him). He mostly bashes The Secret, but also validates the ego as a necessary part of self, otherwise it wouldn't exist in the first place. Something I had never thought of before. After reading, I came to the conclusion that even if I achieve total freedom from grasping desire, the self would still exist, and I would still exist in this dualistic world. Samsara is Nirvana. So I just take it a day at a time, meditate, and go for my dreams, trying not to be too attached to outcomes.

Edit: Just read it again. one of my fav quotes to date: "Authentic spirituality is not a vending machine that spits out cars, lovers, and shiny red bikes."

[Angela]

I think what she means is: if you're thinking that a certain circumstance must come to pass before you can be happy or comfortable or whatever, then you are concentrating on what you don't want, and sentencing yourself to the "hell" of resistance. As opposed to: accepting what is, and finding gratitude and/or inspired action inside of what is.

[thestral]

Originally Posted by Velvet

"I want to be married/have a boss that respects me/a record deal....Wait, is that TRUE?...How do I know I'd be happier with a husband/nice boss/record deal than not?..."

You won't be happier at some distant point in the future, you need to be happy now with what you have and where you are. Once you are happy with the present, you will be more aligned with what you really want, and it will come to you.

[Velvet]

Thestral, Angela: good points all.

Truefire: I really enjoyed that link!

Thank you, this thread is making me feel grateful and weepy...

[thestral]

Originally Posted by Velvet

Thank you, this thread is making me feel grateful and weepy...

Gratitude is one of the best ways for raising your feeling level

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by thestral

You won't be happier at some distant point in the future, you need to be happy now with what you have and where you are. Once you are happy with the present, you will be more aligned with what you really want, and it will come to you.

Ok, not to be pedantic, but if I'm happy now with what I've got, why wish for anything else?

And if there are things that I "really" want--this implies that the present happiness was some kind of self-deluding, whistling-in-the-graveyard fake-out. "Oh, I'm so happy, la-la-la...Um, now can I get what I want?"

See that's the line of reasoning that had me confused in the first place. But I think I'm seeing the light...

[madgeylou]

my favorite part of LoA is the feeling that i generate in the here and now, of what i will feel like once i meet my goal.

the paradox, and what makes me giggle, of course, is that if you can feel that way now, then the whatever it is that's meant to make you feel that way in the future is sort of beside the point, right?

i mean, if you can get to that feeling without the shiny red bike, then the shiny red bike is sort of superfluous. but, with the feeling in place, that lays down the track for the shiny red bike to show up. i feel as though our expectations imprint the future, and then it's just a matter of real time catching up with that imprint.

by the way of example, 4 months ago i was sitting in my gnarly bedbug-ridden apartment. i had recently been dumped by a boyfriend i truly loved, and i was sleep-deprived and depressed and paranoid and kind of despondent -- i felt trapped.

the possibility of a beautiful new apartment came into my life, but it was uncertain cause the landlords were flaky and had concerns about me. i remember sitting on my bed in the old place and trying as hard as i could to summon up the feeling of security and freedom and happiness i would have in a great place with no bedbugs and no leaks in the ceiling and tons of warm wood floors and hot water available on demand and a yard of my own, etc. etc. i was completely grateful for the experience of living in this beautiful apartment, even though i didnt live there yet.

when i got to that place emotionally, i felt so good that i almost considered just getting a good exterminator and staying in my old place but i quickly banished that thought. i mean, the difference between the reality i was living at that moment, and the reality i was anticipating emotionally was huge. and now that i am living in that beautiful apartment, i am as grateful for it as i was then.

but i think being able to get to that place, where you are just filled with gratitude for the blessings you have as well as those you anticipate, is the engine that runs LoA, and also the funnest part of the whole experience. because, as has been stated upthread, the shiny red bike isnt really the point. it's merely the fruit of a deeper process of aligning yourself in the here and now.

the fun question is -- would you be able to engage in that process of alignment if you didnt have that desire for the bike in the first place? i doubt it, at least i couldnt. we are physical creatures in a physical world who respond to physical stimuli.

i also think that, for me, the direness of my situation was what enabled me to get past the hump of my own skepticism and just go for it. if moving was something i wasnt sure i wanted to do, or wasnt 100% keen on, i wouldnt have been able to muster the gratitude to get there.

(i actually just gave myself a little eureka in that last paragraph. maybe i havent gotten my own true love/record deal/everything i ever wanted because deep down i have ambivalence as to whether i really want those things or not. i feel lucky to have realized this -- cause now i know my next task is figuring out the ambivalence, and identifying something i'm *not* ambivalent about to work towards. so thanks for the thread velvet!)

[Velvet]

Waaah! Yes, yes. More gratitude, more weepiness. This all makes sense.

Thanks, Magic Madge.

"I would be more comfortable with a pillow, goddamn it, why can't I have a pillow? I deserve a pillow! Or maybe I don't?" is not the same as "I would be more comfortable with a pillow...so I'll go fetch one from the other room."

[thestral]

Originally Posted by Velvet

Ok, not to be pedantic, but if I'm happy now with what I've got, why wish for anything else?

You are supposed to desire things to ADD to the happiness you already have, not to make you happy. We desire, therefore we change and continue to grow spiritually.

Like with me - I have a great job, grat pay, great co-workers and great benefits. I'm very happy with the company and my life. But I am feeling the pull to change to a new profession, which I know will also make me happy, happy in a new way I've never felt before and could never imagine.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by thestral

Like with me - I have a great job, grat pay, great co-workers and great benefits. I'm very happy with the company and my life. But I am feeling the pull to change to a new profession, which I know will also make me happy, happy in a new way I've never felt before and could never imagine.

That makes sense, T.

Any openings at your company?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Velvet

Any openings at your company?

Sounds like there will be, soon!

[thestral]

Originally Posted by Velvet

That makes sense, T.

Any openings at your company?

Its weird, we keep having openings because people keep leaving saying they hate the place. I guess its an acquired taste

[RT Wolf]

If you can get your hands on a copy of Ask and It is Given, Chapter 22 is about desire. It offers a different definition of desire, and contrasts it with the normally accepted definition:

"We would describe the sensation of desire as the delicious awareness of new possibilities. Desire is a fresh, free feeling of anticipating wonderful expansion. The feeling of desire is truly the feeling of life flowing through you. But many people, while they are using the word desire, feel something quite different. Desire, for them, often feels like yearning, for while they are focused upon something that they want to experience or have, they are equally aware of its absence. And so, while they are using words of desire, they are offering a vibration of lack. They come to think that the feeling of desire is like wanting something that they do not have. But there is no feeling of lack in pure desire." -Beginning of Chap 22 in Ask And It is Given

[Angela]

RT Wolf, thanks for posting that! It's a lovely reminder. I think attachment IS offering the vibration of lack -- in other words, "requiring" an outcome is the same as resisting the outcome, because it's holding on tightly and fearfully, in anticipation of gain/loss. Also, attachment, or vibrating for lack, makes you blind to all of the fabulous UNanticipated possibilities. I think there's a lot to be said for delightful surprise in life.

Love,
angela

[thestral]

Originally Posted by Angela

RT Wolf, thanks for posting that! It's a lovely reminder. I think attachment IS offering the vibration of lack -- in other words, "requiring" an outcome is the same as resisting the outcome, because it's holding on tightly and fearfully, in anticipation of gain/loss. Also, attachment, or vibrating for lack, makes you blind to all of the fabulous UNanticipated possibilities. I think there's a lot to be said for delightful surprise in life.

Angela, that is beautifully said! I need to jot that down in my notebook.

[BelleEnchanted]

The thing about desire is, isn't it the actual getting from the here to the there of your desire the fun part? You know, when you have this wonderful desire, and every day it's getting closer - the opportunities come up, the amazing people/places/things start popping up everywhere, and each time something happens to move you forward, you laugh and you marvel and you really enjoy it all unfolding.

While the enjoyment out of getting a desire might only last moments or hours or days, the journeying from the fulfilment of one desire to the fulfilment of another, and another, can be such a breathtaking experience. When I think of it this way, it makes so much sense to me to be happy right now and at the same time, to still have desires.

Belle

[Angela]

I'm just finishing Byron Katie's new book, Thousand Names for Joy. It's really a lovely and inspiring book, and the thing that's a little confronting for me about it is that, while she doesn't exactly seem to say desires cause suffering (except the desire to get someone to do something, like love you - she does say that causes suffering), her approach seems passive to me. Letting the world come at you as it will and letting go of desire for any outcome at all.

Now she's (and you) have got me thinking about that. I feel "better" having the desires I've got, like to be peaceful, vital, and loving. Those desires seem pretty immediate and powerful to me if I remember to invoke them. But I'm getting the idea from this book that Katie is inviting us not to believe any of our thoughts, not even the ones that work for us! Trying to wrap my head around that, I keep thinking maybe she means don't identify with your thoughts, but I don't think that's what she's saying.

Interestingly, she is doing a free talk a week from Saturday in Los Angeles just a few miles away from my home. I think I'll go ask her about Desire.

I wonder if anyone else desires to go hear her talk?

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by Angela

But I'm getting the idea from this book that Katie is inviting us not to believe any of our thoughts, not even the ones that work for us!

Angela: yes, now I think you're seeing what caused my initial question.

Like I said, I think there's great value in the "4 Questions," but beyond that I think Byron Katie's message can be confusing, and hard to work with. This may simply be miscommunication--maybe her message is easier to "live" than to explain.

The chapter where she discusses the difficult birth of her grandchild, and her attitude is "If the baby dies, that's cool, and if she lives, that's cool, too." I hope someday I can get to a place where I'm that accepting of God's will, but right now, that attitude kinda freaks me out. I don't feel particularly uptight or unspiritual about holding on to the opinion that babies should live, even if it's irrational and ego-based.

Or, in the book, when she's reveling in the sensation of the ants crawling on her, but she's killing some of them and letting others live, and marveling at how mysterious this great ant-filled world is...well, dang, I really didn't know what to bring away from that passage! "Ants should live, but some of them should die, wheeee! Freedom!"

I think the philosophy behind all this is that opinions and desires and identification systems can weigh you down, and I agree. But the way it's presented in the books and videos makes it seem as if all of our ideas and opinions and motivations are inherently wrong-headed. And I can't work with that right now, that doesn't feel liberating so much as kind of deadening.

Even Rational-Emotive psychologists acknowledge that you need to be a little bit irrational in some of your decision-making. I think that's a far more generous and realistic view of things.

And lastly, that quote about desires upthread from Ask and it is Given hits the nail on the head--it's not yearning, it's visualizing something beautiful, in a way that feels good.

[L5P Michelle]

Angela, if you ask Byron Katie what her opinion is on desire, please post the response here!

I was a big fan of manifesting for years. Then, 10 years, ago my sister pointed out something so obvious that I overlooked it completely, "In our family, no one has a problem manifesting what they truly want. The problem is that none of us stays happy for long once we get it!" ... So true. My experience matched a point made in A Course in Miracles: "The ego's game is to seek, but NEVER find."

The Work of Byron Katie helped me see that my constant desire to manifest something in the future always carried a hidden, painful agenda. The hidden agenda was that I believed I was in some state of chronic lack NOW. This belief in lack was just a concept I was attached to, but the concept caused me pain & anxiety. So I would try to fix my stress by slapping another concept on top of that one --the belief I could manifest something "out there" to fix the lack. I kept running in circles with this, until the Work of Byron Katie gently caused me to question the concepts underlying all the activity & gnawing discontent. The Work helped me see that I was always focused on finding my happiness somewhere in the future, someday, which, naturally, implied I didn't have all I needed now. Implicit was the belief, too, that I needed to take control in order to find happiness.

Once Katie's Work helped me became aware of the how that dynamic operated within me, a lot of my unrelenting ambition/attachment appeared to drop away naturally. It's a little disconcerting to me at times, but I have no desire to "get" as much these days. My focus is more on accepting what's in front of me, just as it is. A very different orientation! Maybe it's just a stage, I don't know. I notice that I've been very happy and content for the last few years, so maybe there's a connection?

Katie's work is simple: All resistance is the ego. All love is surrender & acceptance to What Is. The Work is radical and it's simple, but it's not an easy teaching. No genuine spiritual path is, though.

[Velvet]

Byron Katie and her husband Stephen Mitchell have answered my question!

The Difference Between The Work and The Secret (ByronKatie.com)

[madgeylou]

very cool!

(and stephen mitchell is brilliant. his rilke translations have altered me in very profound ways.)

[Muse]

The reason there seems to be "a secret" to reveal about life is because "it" is so present we often overlook its presence. So we keep seeking and searching for what we already have and for what we already are. As long as we are blinded by the light of who we are, and buy into the illusion of separation, we will continue to search for "The Secret." How do I know? I did this very thing for decades until The Work found me.

Prior to The Work, if I had a copy of The Work in one hand and The Secret in the other, and I had to make a choice, I would have chosen The Secret, like so many millions are. People want to find the missing ingredient or pieces of the puzzle, which were never missing in the first place. It only appeared that way. The secret is that there is no secret. Never was. I just couldn't see "it" because it was doing the looking through me ... while "I" was looking for it!