What is the ultimate in spirituality? - Does one have to die?

[ricky]

Lynn Grabhorn - the author of "Excuse Me, Your Life is Waiting" committed suicide.
This book of hers was one of the best books I had ever read. She committed assisted suicide apparently and it seemed like that was the next step for her in terms of spiritual enlightenment.
I was quite disturbed. Does that mean that once you become really spiritually enlightened, you end up leaving your body to go any further?
I really liked her book and was practicing what she had written in there and starting to see results and all of a sudden I find out about this and I am a little hesistant now.
Once you reach a certain level of spirituality, do you end up leaving your physical self? Scary thought!

[ethereal]

It's a choice when you get there. Hawkins calibrated that 50% of people reaching enlightenment (LOC 600) physically leave the body. You don't even need to commit suicide, you just leave -- like when you astral project, for instance. The spirit just takes off

Not sure what the deal is with Lynn, the situation sounds kinda off to me. I don't think if you're really enlightened that you would need assistance to leave the body.

After enlightenment, the spirit/soul doesn't identify with the body anymore, so if it leaves it leaves, if it stays it stays. Usually, if there are some karmic obligations or destiny that "you" are supposed to fulfill, then the body would stay on and fulfill them. When you are evolved to that point, it doesn't bother you whether the body stays or not -- you aren't even in your body anymore, so to speak.

There are an infinite number of levels to evolve to, and beyond the human domain there are lots more to go. It's an eternal journey of the spirit So no need to feel too attached, though if you really want to you can make arrangements to keep your body here and alive (i.e. have other people around to feed you and keep you here) -- but when you really get to that point, you really don't care, and it really doesn't matter

[ricky]

I suppose that's why over the ages a lot of spiritual leaders had left their bodies. But for now it's a scary thought. The whole point of personal development is so that I can not only help myself but also others. But to do that I have to stay alive.

[MindReality]

All life is sacred. It is unrighteous for anyone to take their own life in order to transcend into the next plane of reality.

As long as we are alive in physicality, it means we still have a purpose to live out. We still have something that God wants us to fulfill.

Taking one's own life in order to transcend to the next world after enlightenment is a deception from higher dimensional beings.

Read my article to know the truth about this:
Knowing God through Enlightenment and Salvation

Apostle Paul in the book of Philipians of the bible said:

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

[thestral]

I still think that was a rumor. Yes, you "die" but its just our physical body, not your consciousness. You reconect with the Universe. ethereal is right, you just leave the physical body.

[ming]

That book of hers was my first "real" waking call. Although I read before countles books on the law of attraction, they all brainwash you to wish the politically correct things. In hers, she goes one step further, she states "there is nothing out there, no god, no judge, nothing" that was powerfull knowledge to me, that there is no right or wrong, so if you do or wish "evil" or "good", so be it. Nothing matters.

[MindReality]

Originally Posted by ming

That book of hers was my first "real" waking call. Although I read before countles books on the law of attraction, they all brainwash you to wish the politically correct things. In hers, she goes one step further, she states "there is nothing out there, no god, no judge, nothing" that was powerfull knowledge to me, that there is no right or wrong, so if you do or wish "evil" or "good", so be it. Nothing matters.

What about the idea of alligning your intent with universal intent? Intending according to the highest good of all? Does she mean to say that nothing really matters? What about the higher self?

[ming]

meaning that only matters what you decide that matters. Higher self is you, you can call yourself god too if you fancy. Life as a blank canvas that you fill with beliefs, according to those experiences ocur. But right and wrong are man made concepts, and the reason they were set is for humans to survive as a specie, to all follow a doctrine of moral codes that help us survive in society and perpetuate the specie.

[Akashic_Librarian]

You know people don't all have the same experience.


So many people tell you to look outside of your body to find answers. But...everything you need is inside. I don't know if people will understand that on the level I intend you to. Its not about learning. its all about Forgetting.

[Lychee]

I heard that she went kind of off the deep end during her later years. I wouldn't exactly look to her teachings for advice.

There's no right and wrong? Then what's love and hatred? Respect and disrespect? What, is murder not wrong now? What is wrong is wrong because it goes against Law. That's why people can't get away with things in the long run. You hurt someone unjustly, it will come back to you in a negative way. Nothing matters? That does not make sense. Then it doesn't matter what you are saying. It doesn't matter what she is saying. It doesn't matter that we're here. What would be the point of us being here if nothing mattered?

Once you die, you leave your physical body. But you must treat your physical body with respect - it is YOURS. A lot of people say to focus within. Yes, what is within matters. But what is within is manifested without. Your body is sacred. Choosing to take your own life doesn't make any sense at all. If that were true, why not allow murder? Because you are impinging on the rights of another. We have rights too. Rights to take care of our soul and body as long as we are on this earth. We did not create ourselves, we are Created. Thus, we must leave our lives in the hands of our Creator.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Lychee, there is no right or wrong. Its all perception. We live in a world of percetion. A feeling Universe. Good and Bad exist only as Human conditions, to an alien race our good and bad may be different to theirs. There is no force of good or force of bad out there looking for those who deserve either. It cannot find you. You find yourself. You create the bad and the good. based on your own judgments. Energy is not conscious as far as I know. Truth is...but thats for another time (Don't ask about it).

We all look for a purpose in our lives. We define these through right and wrong. We make decisions based on right and wrong. We live based on right and wrong. And that is the greatest failing of humanity. No thought. Just reaction, passion ruling reason. We are slaves to Good and Bad. We think we are in the right to obey the law, rubbish. If I must break the law I will. It just so happens I have not yet been inclined to do so. Moral codes are jsut the same, you think you have come up with your morals all on your own, 1% of people on this entire planet have done. Steve is one of them. You have most likely borrowed what you think are "Good" morlas from family, friends and media input. You failed to look inside yourself and see who you really are.

Ultimately the answers are inside. If you cannot realise that. Then your a fool.

[escapee]

I suppose that's why over the ages a lot of spiritual leaders had left their bodies

I think that's also the ultimate purpose of many devoted buddhists/tibetan buddhists. Complete liberation from the desire filled body to the "spiritual world" of eternal peace. No more "reincarcation" or any sort for the liberated/enlightened souls.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Wow...thats...interesting...

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

So many people tell you to look outside of your body to find answers. But...everything you need is inside. I don't know if people will understand that on the level I intend you to. Its not about learning. its all about Forgetting.

Word.

//agrees

[Lychee]

It is about forgetting...forgetting the self.

Perhaps one's goal is enlightenment. Why? Who says one should seek enlightenment at all? Why not become a complete hedonist and indulge in your every carnal desire? Of course one can do that. But why don't people consider an ideal the person who seeks to fill themselves with food, mess around with people, steal, use others for their own needs, etc.?

Let's look at those people who do seek to fulfill their desires. They want some food, grab burgers every day for every meal for a long time, and sooner than you know it it's a habit. They become obese. Maybe someone wants something but cannot afford it. So they take someone else's money and use it for themselves. An employee wants a higher position as his job but someone is standing in his way towards that promotion. He discredits that person's reputation and standing within the company so that he can get the promotion. This same man is walking by and sees a poor child on the street while he's chewing his juicy burger. He glances at the child and walks away. As far as he's concerned he didn't do anything wrong because wrong is what he decides.

That is correct - to an extent. As far as he's concerned, RELATIVE to his reality, he didn't do anything wrong because his belief system is constructed in such a way which denies goodness and evil. Polarity. But there is an ABSOLUTE reality. A reality which dictates that the above-person's actions is not conducive to Law or Life. Compare that to the person who hopes another person ahead of him to get that promotion because he feels they deserve it. Who looks at a poor child on the street and completely forgets about his own needs and shares with him of what he can. What of this person? Is this person propagating Life or constricting it?

If the first person was brought before a judge to answer for the theft that he did, should the judge let him go simply because the perpetrator himself thinks he is innocent? He will go back into society and do whatever he wants, harming whomever he wants to.

What makes something right or wrong is based on Law. This is why the person who shares money finds himself with more. The person who gives love finds himself with more. He is running with the current of the power of life. He is parallel to the law of God. (I know your thoughts on God already.)

You proclaim you are 16 years old and you know things that the basic teenager doesn't know, even some things the average adult does not know. But there are things that you do not know still. You say someone is a fool? Who are you to say someone is a fool or not? You make the assumption that I've "borrowed" my beliefs without actually pondering over them? That someone who does not look within himself is a fool?

This proves my point. There is no right and wrong for you because you have constructed your beliefs that way. But your beliefs may not be absolutely correct - it is only correct for you because you choose for it to be. You believe someone is a fool if they do not match your criteria of what is not a fool, so you label them as that. If you believe something and persist in that belief, whether it is right or wrong, it will be truth for you. But it doesn't mean that it is Truth.

[ming]

There is no right or wrong, only your thinking make it so. there is nothing out there. Your opinions and morals have been casted onto you by the society in which you grew up. That´s the reason why with LOA you can attract things ONLY according to your beliefs: the car, the house, the job, the partner, the mundane things.
But if you are ambitious enough you might want to change the weather, transform lead into gold, eradicate death, be able to fly, etc. For this type of goals you must change your beliefs, as all the DVDs and tapes and books say but noone explain you how to.

Go to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and read the blog "how to believe you can do anything" It is literally mind-blowing. then you will understand the formula behind Jesuchrist miracles for example, and see that shifting your beliefs is the key to a life where EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

[MindReality]

Right or wrong is defined by perception.

So whose perception is greatest? The one you perceive to be greatest right?

So either you perceive yourself to be greatest, or you perceive some other being to be greatest. Whoever you perceive to be greatest, is whose perception you will accept about right and wrong.

Now man did not invent the Law of morality to show what is right or wrong.

The Law is in our hearts, our conscience. Did we create our conscience?

No, we existed with it from the beginning of life.

Conscience is our natural perception. Where did that perception come from?

It comes from our higher self, the God consciousness.

Our conscience naturally perceives right and wrong.

Therefore there is perception of right and wrong according to our conscience.

Because we are freewill beings, we have the power to alter perception, even our original perception given by conscience.

When we do that, we misalign with our original state of being.

That's how we create all the "evil" in this world. When we move away from the once perfect state that always is, in the beginning.

Now we can call it "evolution of consciousness" and "refinement of perception"

But how do we know if we are refining our perception correctly?

We know according to awareness. But if there is someone with possibly greater awareness than us, can we learn from such a person?

Yes we can, if we allow ourselves to, and only if we choose to reason that he is the one with the greatest awareness.

There is such a person, and he is called The Word of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

The Word is the Son of God. He is the person with the greatest awareness in the universe, and the one we can learn from.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Mindreality are you saying that "The Word of God" is a sentient being?

I don't know how to explain this to you. I don't if I CAN explain this. There is NO right or Wrong. There isn't. We create it. We define it. What about tribes that kill and eat humans? Are they driven by the same morals?

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"You proclaim you are 16 years old and you know things that the basic teenager doesn't know, even some things the average adult does not know. But there are things that you do not know still. You say someone is a fool? Who are you to say someone is a fool or not? You make the assumption that I've "borrowed" my beliefs without actually pondering over them? That someone who does not look within himself is a fool?"

Assumption? I make no assumption. I know.

There are things in this world you can't comprehend. For everyone there are things they cannot comprehend. This may sound arrogant and I understand that I sound like an ego driven, angst ridden teen with a God-complex but believe me when I say, I know what I am talking about. I understand things most adults I have met struggle with. I have talked to many different, so called spiritual adults, and I have only ever found one who truly understands what I say. What I know cannot be taught. It cannot be spoken. It can only be felt.

The truth we all search for, especailly in such a wonderful community as this, is all within ourselves. We have only to look inwards. But so few people can really do that. You try and find meaning in some Divine being who cannot be understood. Or you simply say its not for you to know. Its your life. Yours. No one elses. No one can control it. No one can order you about. Its your life and if you truly value you it, you wouldn't invest in external sources. You wouldn't invest your emotions in things you cannot control, simply so you have someone to blame when it goes wrong.

If you really want me to explain the nature of reality for you I will. Because I have all day. But somehow I don't think you will want me to.

[Lallymac]

It's not about forgetting so much as remembering. Remembering who we really are. We are spirit beings having a physical experience. The spirit aspect of us exists way beyond the physical restrictions of a material world.
Lallymac

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

The truth we all search for, especailly in such a wonderful community as this, is all within ourselves.

Akashic - if you look deep enough inside yourself, and if I look deep enough inside myself - what we're both going to see is the same thing,

It's not all relative. There are some ultimate truths.

[MindReality]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Mindreality are you saying that "The Word of God" is a sentient being?

I don't know how to explain this to you. I don't if I CAN explain this. There is NO right or Wrong. There isn't. We create it. We define it. What about tribes that kill and eat humans? Are they driven by the same morals?

Yes there is no right or wrong. I said that right or wrong is defined by PERCEPTION.

Your perception, my perception and the perception of other beings.

So it is our choice to believe in whose perception to accept as ours regarding right and wrong.

The Word of God is a Person. Within the God consciousness, there are many personalities which includes all of us. You and I are a personality within the God Mind, for we are all One from the One consciousness of all things.

The Word of God is a Personality within the One consciousness who is higher than any other personality. He is the Son of God. He is the one who originally set the perception of good and evil to all the angels of heaven.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

We can choose to accept his perception of good and evil or to deny it, and to follow our own.

To deny his perception of good and evil is to sin against Him for He is The LORD and he is HOLY.

[Akashic_Librarian]

So your christian? Well that makes sense why we disagree. You see I am not Christian, at all. I don't have much tolerance for your basic Christian. But you seem like a very intelligent person so I think I can get along with you. Now I don't know about you, but I have trouble accepting what someone else tells me. Thats why I don't do organized religion. It bothers me that someone tells me how to live my life. I like to discover things on my own.

[ethereal]

There is no right and wrong in this physicality, it is true. Those are just labels, it is true. It's a duality where none exist.

However, there is the law of karma, also known as the Infinite Justice of God. Impossible to escape that one. Lucifer tried and failed

The Luciferic temptation: "Now that you are beyond personal karma, and that there is no God to answer to (since when you're enlightened, you ARE God) -- therefore, seize all power, it is yours for the taking." Yes, he was beyond personal karma, but he wasn't beyond God's law of karma You would have to be outside God to be beyond God's karma, and that is an impossibility.

This is similar to what MindReality and some others have talked about, "aligning" with conscience, Law of Life, etc.

There are no right and wrong actions, but there are actions and consequences. It all depends on what consequences you want

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

It's not all relative. There are some ultimate truths.

Absolutely.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Mind you need not quote the bible, for those of us who aren't christians it can be quite annoying. I always felt like people who quote things are basically saying "THIS IS A FACT, THATS WHY I AM QUOTING IT" Why else would you quote something in a debate? The bible cannot be used to prove anything, try something else. I understand exactly what those quotes mean and they ARE truths...just say em in your own words...more value in that.

[MindReality]

Originally Posted by DoAnyOfYouExist

Mind you need not quote the bible, for those of us who aren't christians it can be quite annoying. I always felt like people who quote things are basically saying "THIS IS A FACT, THATS WHY I AM QUOTING IT" Why else would you quote something in a debate? The bible cannot be used to prove anything, try something else. I understand exactly what those quotes mean and they ARE truths...just say em in your own words...more value in that.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

When Jesus rebuked the devil, he did not say "I say unto you..." he said "It is written..."

Psalms 138:2 For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

[mysterygal]

WOW is that really true that 50 percent of people who become enlightened die and leave their bodies?? Where did that fact come from?

[ethereal]

Kinesiology/muscle testing

It probably depends on your karma, whether your destiny is to stay in physicality or not. It's a "choice", but that's what your karma means, the karmic propensity to make a certain choice based on your karma.

The ego is afraid of death, but when you become enlightened there's nothing to be afraid of -- frankly, most people want to leave their bag of meat and bones behind if you've ever been out-of-body, you'd know the feeling of freedom you get from leaving it all

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by MindReality

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Hahah wow, a verse in the bible that tells you that bible verses can be used as proof.... You cannot use the bible to prove to me that the bible can be used to prove things...