LOA and the Catholic Church

[newdad]

I have been trying to discover the Catholic Churches particular opinion on LOA. I have not been able to find anything official. Maybe the Church is okay with it, but something about LOA doesn't feel right, as if the Church wouldn't approve. Anyone come across an official statement or have an opinion on this?

[Dolazy]

Originally Posted by newdad

I have been trying to discover the Catholic Churches particular opinion on LOA. I have not been able to find anything official. Maybe the Church is okay with it, but something about LOA doesn't feel right, as if the Church wouldn't approve. Anyone come across an official statement or have an opinion on this?

No, I haven't come across an official statement on this. But I suspect that they would declare the LoA teachings to be incompatible with the core teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

A related example is how the spiritual teachings of Anthony de Mello were at one time banned from the church by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, who later became Pope Benedict XVI. It's an interesting read: CDF - Writings of Fr. De Mello, SJ

Dolazy

[Sam988]

Who cares about what the catholic church thinks?

[Lychee]

Why is it incompatible with the church?

[CamC]

why dont you just think for youself? you may have forgotten, but u do have a free will. It's called the frontal lobe and its located just behind your forehead.

[cylon]

I would think any christian church other than unitarian would be against LOA. The main teaching is that your life is a bunch of crap and evil things will happen to you until you confess to being a dirty sinner, accept Jesus and follow his word and THEN you get LOA type stuff to happen. But it's a special gift only for Christians, and if you stop being Christian, it will stop working. It's basically answering prayers, and God only answers the prayers of Christians, according to most Christian believers.

[Radio]

I don't know about the Catholic church specifically, but a good friend of mine is a Christian pastor, and the LoA came up in conversation not too long ago. I told him it's exactly the same thing he teaches at his church, but without the "getting on your knees" part.

As expected, he blew it off as something Satanic, and told me that the only way to receive blessings is through Jesus Christ. So I'm guessing the Catholic church stance is pretty similar to this. Probably not even worth bringing it up if you're catholic. Just do what you feel is right.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by cylon

I would think any christian church other than unitarian would be against LOA. The main teaching is that your life is a bunch of crap and evil things will happen to you until you confess to being a dirty sinner, accept Jesus and follow his word and THEN you get LOA type stuff to happen. But it's a special gift only for Christians, and if you stop being Christian, it will stop working. It's basically answering prayers, and God only answers the prayers of Christians, according to most Christian believers.

A true Christian doesn't believe that god only answers the prayers of christians, nor does the Catholic church; believe it or not. I realize that many do feel that way, but they're misinterpreting basic christian theology, even if they're unaware of it.

I don't want to get into quoting scripture or anything, but I'll paraphrase a verse. (I have no clue what verse it is). It basically says that ALL people have the knowledge of god in their heart. That can also be translated as having a conscience.

So, a Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, Agnostic or even an atheist know right from wrong. I'm well aware that those are relative terms, but just about every society on earth agrees that murder, child molestation, rape, stealing and a few other evil deeds are wrong. It's instinctual.

Anyhow, there are lots of christians who absolutely believe that they're the "chosen" few, but the message of Christ said nothing of the kind. In fact, he said that in his fathers house, there are many mansions. I, and many others interperet that as many religions, belief systems etc.

A poor Chinese farmer who never heard the name of Jesus in his life is unaccountable for not knowing the gospel. If he lived a good life, did what he was supposed to do, never hurt anyone etc., he is not damned. In order to "sin", one must be aware that what they're doing is wrong, and the Catholic church definitely teaches this principle. I don't know if they always have, because they've been around a long time, but i do know that they do now, and have been for many centuries.

In fact, what is called "mortal" sin from a Catholic standpoint (which allegedly removes you from fellowship with God until you confess, receive absolution and do penance) requires three ingredients.

They are A: full knowledge , or knowing the gravity of the sin, and to be fully aware of what one is doing. So a paranoid schizophrenic or someone suffering from some other mental illness, or even ignorance of doing wrong is not guilty, even if they commit murder.

B:It must be a grave matter. That's subject to a bit of interpretation as well, but basically means something that's really bad, like murdering an innocent, molesting a child, stealing a million bucks that was meant to feed the poor, etc.

C: This is a biggy; the FULL consent of the will. So, knowingly doing something wrong but not having your heart completely in it, so to speak, gets you off the hook as well. For instance, if someone knows what they're doing is wrong, but they have no alternative, or are coerced into it aginst their better judgement etc. would constitute a venial sin, which isn't nearly as bad as mortal sin.

So, I have no clue where the Church stands on LOA, but if it's done with a pure heart, good intentions, and for the good of all concerned, I don't think anyone should be too concerned about spending eternity with Lucifer over it. Maybe a few thousand years in purgatory would get someone off the hook. who knows???

Overall, it may be considered some kind of divination, which is a definite "no no" in the eyes of the church, but that's certainly not unforgivable, especially if one still has faith in God, and merely see themselves as working within the confines of the laws that he created in the first place. In LOA, intention plays a big role. They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but if the intentions are truly pure, I can't see God having a problem with it.

I think we put way too many human characteristics on God (especially the bad ones, like jealousy, wrath, vengence etc.), and keep him in a little box that fits us; not him (oh, and I don't believe God is male, I'm just using "he" because that's the way most people refer to "him") rather than "it" but I choose to give God a little bit more credit than many do, and I also have always believed that he has a great sense of humor.

He must also be pretty darn busy running the universe (and maybe even a few billion more universes; who knows??), and I just can't see someone so good as to provide us with all that we need to do whatever we wish, sitting around and sweating the small stuff with a scorecard in his hand.

He probably has much bigger fish to fry than to get upset about people creating intentions, setting goals, and trusting him to make it happen. The whole LOA can easily be viewed from a Christian standpoint as doing exactly that, and trusting his promise of coming to show the way to an abundnat life doesn't sound like any serious crime to me.

But if it's really a serious concern for a practicing Catholic, the best bet would be to talk to a priest. If he doesn't give a good answer, it can't hurt to talk to few more. The catechism probably has plenty to say on divination, but I don't think it gets into the specifics of LOA. I'm not even sure that LOA would be considered divination if it's looked at in the right context.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Betrade

He must also be pretty darn busy running the universe (and maybe even a few billion more universes; who knows??), and I just can't see someone so good as to provide us with all that we need to do whatever we wish, sitting around and sweating the small stuff with a scorecard in his hand.

He probably has much bigger fish to fry than to get upset about people creating intentions, setting goals, and trusting him to make it happen. The whole LOA can easily be viewed from a Christian standpoint as doing exactly that, and trusting his promise of coming to show the way to an abundnat life doesn't sound like any serious crime to me.

But if it's really a serious concern for a practicing Catholic, the best bet would be to talk to a priest. If he doesn't give a good answer, it can't hurt to talk to few more. The catechism probably has plenty to say on divination, but I don't think it gets into the specifics of LOA. I'm not even sure that LOA would be considered divination if it's looked at in the right context.

Maybe you forgot it, because you seem to know a good deal about it,
whatever god is (Source, Energy, God), according to every belief system that acknowledges him, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. So he cant be busy enough to not answer what we want. Unless you believe in a different god, or you are politheist, then its a different story.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Maybe you forgot it, because you seem to know a good deal about it,
whatever god is (Source, Energy, God), according to every belief system that acknowledges him, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. So he cant be busy enough to not answer what we want. Unless you believe in a different god, or you are politheist, then its a different story.

I agree completely. I was being facetious (sic??). I just don't believe that God is "out to get us" just because we may use the abilties he put in us. IMO, if he set the LOA in motion and designed it to work to our benefit (or to our detriment, depending on how we execrcise it), than I can't see why he would have a problem if those of us who realize it's existence use it to our advantage. I don't believe it was created to do us harm, or create undesirable situations for ourselves.

I would think that he would be pleased if we use it to our advantage. I know when I teach my own sons something that I like, and they like it too, it gives me pleasure and satisfaction, and I imagine God would be pleased as well.

I'm not a practicing Catholic, and don't really believe in the religion, but I come from a very large Catholic family and was raised in the faith. When people ask, I tell them that I don't "practice" it anymore because I mastered it a long time ago, thus eliminating the need for anymore practice.

I just wish doctors would practice a bit longer before they start treating people. I don't like the idea of being the guy that they "practice" on. I thought that's what guinea pigs were for.

The same goes for lawyers.

[cylon]

Betrade- you make some good points. I know Christians who are much more open-minded as well, and who don't deny other viewpoints. On average though, when it comes to the people who are in prominent positions in the "church" (the ones many believers look up to to know what to think), you are not likely to hear "accept Jesus as your savior or go to hell, but if you don't, that's fine too, you should be ok."

The majority of Christians believe they have a special place in the universe, because they joined the right club and therefore are granted exclusive rights to the goodies from the club (good stuff from what we're calling LOA).

But again, that's not EVERYONE. Things like the Unitarian church for example are Christian but do not believe in what I just mentioned.

For myself, I prefer to go through life without following rules handed down by humans over the centuries. Treat people well, that's my basic motto. Everything else is allowed. And if the LOA is working for me, it seems to invalidate the exclusivity we're talking about.

[Lychee]

It's just based on law.

It doesn't matter if you're a good person or even a Christain for that matter - if you study for an exam and know the material, you'll get an A. If you don't know the material, you'll do poorly on the exam.

It doesn't matter if you're a good person or a Christain - you can manipulate the laws of gravity for good or for evil.

Likewise, LOA states that what you focus on you will attract. That's why there are so many "good" people left behind. If you are essentially "good" and are still finding yourself in unfortunate circumstances, you're doing something wrong. There are also "bad" people who are doing well in this world because they are following a certain procedure. It's just what Wattles says in "The Science of Getting Rich." If you follow the Way or the procedure, you will get results.

[newdad]

Likewise, LOA states that what you focus on you will attract. That's why there are so many "good" people left behind. If you are essentially "good" and are still finding yourself in unfortunate circumstances, you're doing something wrong. There are also "bad" people who are doing well in this world because they are following a certain procedure. It's just what Wattles says in "The Science of Getting Rich." If you follow the Way or the procedure, you will get results

Would you say that Jesus wasn't focusing on "good" or didn't do it well enough? Is that why he was betrayed and camed to a quite horrific end? What about all the Saints that dedicated their whole life to doing good and yet endend up meeting some gruesome deaths? Didn't they do good well enough?

The main teaching is that your life is a bunch of crap and evil things will happen to you until you confess to being a dirty sinner, accept Jesus and follow his word and THEN you get LOA type stuff to happen. But it's a special gift only for Christians, and if you stop being Christian, it will stop working.

Again, is this really consistant with the lives of Jesus and the Saints. Seems to me that Christianity doesn't promise anything about you if you believe you will then get LOA stuff and if you stop you lose it. In fact, the major examples of Christianity seem to show quite the Contrary. Jesus, accepted and still evil things happened to Him. The saints accepted his word and evil things happened to them. Job had his faith and evil things happened to him.

why dont you just think for youself? you may have forgotten, but u do have a free will. It's called the frontal lobe and its located just behind your forehead.

I have thought for myself. I've done a great deal of searching and researching. From it I discovered that throughout history their have been many fads, charlotans selling their snake oils, and magic pills throughout history and through it all (depsite various individual corruptions) the church has maintained the fundamental teachings and seen through the various charms of the next great thing. Because they never bought into these fads, I have learned to trust their position and to check it against anything that seems too good to be true. My will is to not get caught up in anything hokey, just because Oprah or some new guru claims something is great. I would rather lend my trust to a collective school of minds that have 2 thousand years of knowledge to draw upon. Listening to good advice is not the same thing as giving up your free will or not thinking for yourself. If somebody tells me that a burner is hot, I'm not going to stick my hand on it just to prove that I have free will.

[starlet]

My friend is a Protestant pastor has now been doing sermons using passages of the Bible that describe LOA. Apparently his "flock" have been having amazing things happen to them after applying LOA to their lives.

Well...he's an odd pastor, he used Harry Potter for Sunday School classes too

[CamC]

Originally Posted by newdad

Would you say that Jesus wasn't focusing on "good" or didn't do it well enough? Is that why he was betrayed and camed to a quite horrific end?

It coulda been worse, like seriously, he coulda been stabbed, like, stabbed, like with a knife or unusually sharp fork.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by newdad

Would you say that Jesus wasn't focusing on "good" or didn't do it well enough? Is that why he was betrayed and camed to a quite horrific end? What about all the Saints that dedicated their whole life to doing good and yet endend up meeting some gruesome deaths? Didn't they do good well enough?

Law of Attraction is not the only force on the universe. God is in control of all things. We can only use the law to the extent of God's will.

It's not a coincidence that people who do good works have always been the ones with the arrows in their backs. There is a greater force working through us and shaping our lives.

[newdad]

By defenition a law: must be simple, true, universal, absolute. For example, look at the law of gravity. Objects are drawn towards each other in direct proportion to their mass. Simple. Is it true? Drop a rock. Does it fall toward the earth? Yes. The smaller mass of the rock is drawn to the larger mass of the earth. Is it universal? The moon is held in rotation by the forces drawing it towards the earth and the earth is held in rotation around the sun by the forces of the mass of the sun pulling on the earth. This tendancy for objects to be drawn towards each other has been shown evident in other galaxies as well, so I would say, Yes it is universal. Is it absolute? Drop a rock a million times and see if it ever doesn't fall.

Does this criteria hold true for LOA? Or will LOA fail? I feel that LOA has some merit, but not as a way to bend the energies of universe towards your will.

[CamC]

Originally Posted by newdad

I feel that LOA has some merit, but not as a way to bend the energies of universe towards your will.

That comes with the old-school physics assumption that there is a "Universe" separate from our consciousness. No we aren't just individuals bending this thing to our will that is greater than us and outside us. We are the creators.

I think people misinterpret "God" as well. When we say God we are speaking simply of Source Energy, which is, well, everything. This Energy is conscious, intelligent, thinking energy, in which we are a part of. So some could call it God, which is right in a way, but you have to remember we aren't talking about a santa clause looking dude up in the sky whipping us into shape, striking us with lightning if we don't respect his almighty power and giving us a pass/fail grade when we croak. IN FACT, God wouldn't do that to us, simply because we are a part of it. That would be like one of us having a cell in our bodies that offended us, so we punish it by giving it cancer.


To answer your original question, the church would probably reject LoA, because it doesn't fit the mold. Which is unfortunate because Jesus was one of the earlier LoA teachers. "Ask and Believe and you shall receive." something like that was one of his quotes.

But the religion has been translated and altered quite a bit and used for power and control all throughout history, so what's known as "Christianity" today, probably has very little to do with what Jesus actually taught back in the day. It's like when kids sit in a circle around the teacher and play telephone. The teacher whispers a phrase into the ear of the kid to her left and then the phrase goes all around the circle to get to the teacher. Well it's something totally different by the time it gets to the teacher. Some kids misinterpret the information, some do it deliberately (just like in the real world.) Multiply that by 2000 years and you can easily see how accurate the information is. It's clear as day.

[newdad]

Originally Posted by CamC

That comes with the old-school physics assumption that there is a "Universe" separate from our consciousness. No we aren't just individuals bending this thing to our will that is greater than us and outside us. We are the creators.

I think people misinterpret "God" as well. When we say God we are speaking simply of Source Energy, which is, well, everything. This Energy is conscious, intelligent, thinking energy, in which we are a part of. So some could call it God, which is right in a way,

Many peope do misinterpret God. John was already trying to protect us from this misinterpretation before he wrote his Gospel or Revelations. The Gnostics, (who hold your panthiestic view that God is the universe or some thinking Energy.) The Church has had a long battle to hold the original teaching of Jesus in place. The Gnostics had no problem assimilating Jesus's teachings into their own, and with a few changes to some major concepts it is easy to see how the concept of God could get confusing. Then the schism's of the church occured and also helped distort the picture. But, the doctrine of the Catholic church has remained virtually unchanged since the 1st council of Nicea.

One big mistake is in the belief that God is Energy. This is a fallacy. Energy is matter-a physical substance (hence it is studied by physicists)-and God is not a physical being. He is separate from Energy. Energy is His creation.

One thing we agree upon and you've helped further convince me, is that the Chruch would most likely not condone LoA, if it pursued under the premise of tapping into Source Energy.

I do however believe, that if you are a Christian and want to focus on improving yourself you can draw some concepts from LoA. This I believe is due to the LGN which helps filter information. If we give it the task to look for ways to reach our goals, it will do it. Nothing mythical or magical, no more than telling a computer to do a search for a certain word.

[Dating Specialist]

I'm going to be baptised as a Catholic this coming Easter Vigil mass (which is 3 days away!)

I'm not even remotely sure if the Catholic Church has anything to say regarding LOA, but if LOA is all about energy and thought waves, what has it got to do with religion?

I pray to God almost daily and I ask for His blessings.

I also used LOA whenever and wherever to test it's effectiveness as well. Maybe, eventually when I do get what I want, I may not know who to credit for, but so long as it works, that's all that matters!

Maybe I'm simple, but I guess it's a much easier way out and if it achieves results, then I'd gladly remain simple with my faith and beliefs

[newdad]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

I'm going to be baptised as a Catholic this coming Easter Vigil mass (which is 3 days away!)

I'm not even remotely sure if the Catholic Church has anything to say regarding LOA, but if LOA is all about energy and thought waves, what has it got to do with religion?

I pray to God almost daily and I ask for His blessings.

I also used LOA whenever and wherever to test it's effectiveness as well. Maybe, eventually when I do get what I want, I may not know who to credit for, but so long as it works, that's all that matters!

Maybe I'm simple, but I guess it's a much easier way out and if it achieves results, then I'd gladly remain simple with my faith and beliefs

I don't want to become preachy. I asked the original question, because I wanted to make sure I didn't subscribe to some New Age ideal that goes against the Church. LoA sounds...convenient. All I have to do is wish think hard enough about something and it comes true. I had hoped to short-cut my research by finding others that held the same faith and compared the teachings of LoA to the Church.

I do have one question though. What is your intent for getting baptized? If it is because you believe in the teachings of the Church, then you too ought to look into their view on this. LoA as it is intended falls dangerously close to gnosticism, which is a heretical view in the Church.

Read, Why Loa Fails, Gnosticism, and this article from Catholic.org

[Dani]

Originally Posted by newdad

I don't want to become preachy. I asked the original question, because I wanted to make sure I didn't subscribe to some New Age ideal that goes against the Church. LoA sounds...convenient. All I have to do is wish think hard enough about something and it comes true. I had hoped to short-cut my research by finding others that held the same faith and compared the teachings of LoA to the Church.

I do have one question though. What is your intent for getting baptized? If it is because you believe in the teachings of the Church, then you too ought to look into their view on this. LoA as it is intended falls dangerously close to gnosticism, which is a heretical view in the Church.

Read, Why Loa Fails, Gnosticism, and this article from Catholic.org

Out of curiousity did you ask the question to get an open answer, or just to get more support for the opinion you had already formed? It certainly seems to be the latter, because though you asked if the catholic church endorsed it or not, you have attacked anyone who said it was ok.

I took a look at that 'why LOA fails' article and it is flawed in a lot of places.

1.) It makes the assumption that everything in the bible is word for word correct and true to his interpretation and then uses this as evidence against LOA.

e.g.

Maybe he isn't the best example. He became man to die for us. So, it could be argued that this is what he intended.

Assumes that Christ was more than a man. While it is fine within his religious paradigm to have this as a 'fact', it is still simply within his paradigm. Not an honest to god scientifically provable 'fact' like that world is round. In fact over 80% of the world who aren't christian would disagree with him, some vehemently, on this point alone. But he does this several times. Assuming his religious views are universal facts.

2.) He has a total lack of real understanding of LOA. Belief and Faith are the core elements of LOA, not 'what you want'. Technically, 'what you think about' is only secondary to LOA. Faith is what truly drives it. But what you think about drives your faith. What you think about is the petrol for the engine faith which gives direction to LOA.

You build your beliefs primarily through one of two ways, 1 massive emotional shock, or 2 repetition of ideas. What you think about daily will become reality as your belief shifts to encompass what dominates your mind.

3.) The bible itself condones the basic premise of LOA. I forget which verse, but somewhere in Mark you will find the very famous quote:

When you pray, believe that you already have it, and you will recieve it.

There simply is no way to better sum up LOA in a single sentence than that one above.

Scatterred through Jesus' teaching are also numerous refences to god's power acting through faith.

The mistake most religious people make is that they put their faith in the wrong thing. They believe that God is seperate from us and will do things for us. But as the bible actually says many, many times, God is within all of us, and every thing, and works through us when we have and act with faith.

No sane Christian would dare to argue that 'having faith in God' was not a core Christian belief. Well LOA is actually nothing more than having faith in God under a new name. If it exists and is a law, such as gravity, then it is a law created by God's hand.

4.) Further to this misunderstanding, is the single most common misunderstanding. That LOA is something you can turn on or off at will. If LOA is real, it is active 24/7 believe in it or not. Christian, Muslim, Satanist alike all are using it.

To 'prove' this one is easy. Take a good look at people around you. Don't judge their thoughts or words as good or bad. Just observe what they say and think. You will see that their words are mirrored directly in their lives. If they say, 'I am good person but no one appreciates me' then that certainly is how their world is.

No wealthy person talks about how broke they are. No poor person talks about how rich they are.

Sad people talk about sad things, happy people about happy things.

Try this simple experiment, write down everything that is good in your life, and read it to yourself at least once a day every day for one month. Your life will improve from thsi one act no matter what else you do or don't do.

Try it then get back to me with the results if you aren't afraid to.

5.) Find for me one single example of someone achieving and maintaining something great and miraculous 'by accident'. You can even look through the bible. Every one of the great people in the bible utilized the exact same actions and steps that people attribute to LOA.

1. They set their intentions on a goal
2. They kept the goal in mind to exclusion of all else
3. They had faith that their goal would come about and they took action towards that goal, even though they had no idea where they were going or what they would do.
4. They didn't give up until their goal manifested.

The only difference between that and LOA practitioners is what they called the thing they had faith in.

The same is true for every single great person and achievement in the history of mankind.

Someone didn't trip over and build the pyramids. Someone had the goal of making them then set out to achieve that goal.

Someone didn't wake up one morning, bump his alarm clock over and free America from England. A group of men got together, sent an intention out to god and the universe, and then started on the path to fulfill it.

You show me any great figure or event from history and I can show how they utilised the steps of LOA even if they didn't call it that.

Hitler was a good example of what that article you referenced called 'the Brain' he had the intention of taking of the world and almost succeeded. However enough people believed more strongly that he would fail. (Thank goodness. )

Ghandi is an example of a 'good' person using LOA. He never let his vision go until he achieved it.

6.) Why did Jesus and the saints have to die if they were thinking good thoughts? Because that is what they believed would happen to them. They knew that what they were thinking and doing was against the norms and would get them into trouble. They knew they would achieve their goal, but also pay a terrible price for it. This knowing was their undoing. All of them would of had opportunities to save themselves. Jesus knew he would betrayed. He could have done a runner and skipped town, or could have just said 'sorry guys I was pulling your legs, the Rabbi really does have it right.'

Any protestor will tell you that they know the cops are looking for an excuse to put the boots in but they still antagonise them into striking. Why? Because it makes them feel persecuted, justified and morally superior.

It also makes them look that way. Would Jesus' message have been anywhere near as effective if he had lived happily ever after for our sins?

What about the other Saints? Would those that sufferred have even been noticed if they hadn't sufferred and martyred themselves?

Why couldn't they have intended to become a martyr to prove their point and achieve their goal?

LOA is not sacrificing a goat/cow/virgin, dancing around a bonfire calling out to Cthulu and asking for a good harvest this year. Or anything of the sort.

It is not a 'magical power' that all of us can access if we just pay xxx $500 for a new wand.

There is nothing heretical, satanic, or evil about it.

It is simply taking responsibility for your thoughts and your life. It is stopping blaming other people and circumstances for your life and starting to take control of it and living it. Taking action to create a life of your dreams with Faith that if you persevere and keep your goal in mind you will succeed, because you will attract what you need to make that happen.

How can that possibly go against what the church teaches if the church truly wants it's people to live the best life they can?

[sv800]

Originally Posted by newdad

Read, Catholic.org

What a weak criticism article...using "poltergeist" to scare...

[newdad]

Out of curiousity did you ask the question to get an open answer, or just to get more support for the opinion you had already formed? It certainly seems to be the latter, because though you asked if the catholic church endorsed it or not, you have attacked anyone who said it was ok.

When I asked the question, I was asking if anyone had information on the Catholic viewpoint, as I am Catholic and wanted to know if LOA was consistant with the teaching of the Church. I got lots of suggestions that I ought to think for myself and attacks about the small mindedness of Christians. In the meantime I continued to do research of my own and shared what I have discovered.

No where did I attack anyone that believes that LOA works for them. In fact, I stated several times that LOA has some merit, as it does help you focus on your goals. I did, however, say that I think that the focus comes from assigning your LGN to search criteria. And, I stated that if you are Catholic then you probably would be at risk of heresy as Catholic doctrine defines gnosticism as heretical. I didn't condone anyone to hell or call anyone immoral for using LOA. I am merely saying that if you subscribe to the Catholic religion, then you might want to double check your beliefs

Lastly, on this point, I am not arguing that Catholicism is the right belief. If you are of another faith or atheist that is your choice.

1.) It makes the assumption that everything in the bible is word for word correct and true to his interpretation and then uses this as evidence against LOA.

e.g.


Quote:
Maybe he isn't the best example. He became man to die for us. So, it could be argued that this is what he intended.

Assumes that Christ was more than a man. While it is fine within his religious paradigm to have this as a 'fact', it is still simply within his paradigm. Not an honest to god scientifically provable 'fact' like that world is round. In fact over 80% of the world who aren't christian would disagree with him, some vehemently, on this point alone. But he does this several times. Assuming his religious views are universal facts.

By defenition a Christian believes in the teachings of Christ. There is no middle ground with his teachings. He either is all that He says he is or He is not the Christ. This is not an issue of proving facts, it is a belief system, either you adopt it or you don't.
The Catholic Church is quite emphatic on the nature of God and to say He is the universe, energy, source, etc...goes against doctrine. LOA is obviously a different belief system than that tought by the Catholic Church, therefore as a Catholic I can't adopt it as written.

2.) He has a total lack of real understanding of LOA. Belief and Faith are the core elements of LOA, not 'what you want'. Technically, 'what you think about' is only secondary to LOA. Faith is what truly drives it. But what you think about drives your faith. What you think about is the petrol for the engine faith which gives direction to LOA.

You build your beliefs primarily through one of two ways, 1 massive emotional shock, or 2 repetition of ideas. What you think about daily will become reality as your belief shifts to encompass what dominates your mind.

Further to this misunderstanding, is the single most common misunderstanding. That LOA is something you can turn on or off at will. If LOA is real, it is active 24/7 believe in it or not. Christian, Muslim, Satanist alike all are using it.

As is asked in Why LOA will Fail. How then does a baby with no language or concept of something as abstract as positive and negative thoughts create their reality? Does a victimized baby lay in it's crib all day thinking. "I am unworthy and unloved and deserve to be beaten and abused."? Maybe they do, maybe the law holds true. If this is indeed a law than I propose a challenge for you.

For the next thirty days concentrate on your ability to fly. Think "I am lighter than air. I soar at will." Picture yourself among the clouds defying gravity. Then, at the end of thirty days get yourself a camera and record yourself taking off from the ground and do a couple of loopty-loops. Surely, if the law is an absolute then this shouldn't be a problem.

.) The bible itself condones the basic premise of LOA. I forget which verse, but somewhere in Mark you will find the very famous quote:


Quote:
When you pray, believe that you already have it, and you will recieve it.

There simply is no way to better sum up LOA in a single sentence than that one above.

What about this? (I promise I won't quote scripture again in here.)

Matthew 6:
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat (or drink), or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds in the sky; they do not sow or reap, they gather nothing into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are not you more important than they? Can any of you by worrying add a single moment to your life-span? Why are you anxious about clothes? Learn from the way the wild flowers grow. They do not work or spin. But I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was clothed like one of them.If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is thrown into the oven tomorrow, will he not much more provide for you, O you of little faith? So do not worry and say, 'What are we to eat?' or 'What are we to drink?' or 'What are we to wear?' All these things the pagans seek. Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.But seek first the kingdom (of God) and his righteousness, and all these things will be given you besides.

Here it seems that Jesus is telling us not to worry about those things LOA teaches. Rather, just believe in God and let Him do the rest. It doesn't say, believe in God and He'll give you everything you want. The problem I have with LoA and it's associating Energy with God is that it doesn't leave room for God to say, "No."

Try this simple experiment, write down everything that is good in your life, and read it to yourself at least once a day every day for one month. Your life will improve from thsi one act no matter what else you do or don't do.

I agree with you. I attribute this to the LGN, if we are scanning for positive things we won't notice the negative things.

[Dani]

Originally Posted by newdad

When I asked the question, I was asking if anyone had information on the Catholic viewpoint, as I am Catholic and wanted to know if LOA was consistant with the teaching of the Church. I got lots of suggestions that I ought to think for myself and attacks about the small mindedness of Christians. In the meantime I continued to do research of my own and shared what I have discovered.

No where did I attack anyone that believes that LOA works for them. In fact, I stated several times that LOA has some merit, as it does help you focus on your goals. I did, however, say that I think that the focus comes from assigning your LGN to search criteria. And, I stated that if you are Catholic then you probably would be at risk of heresy as Catholic doctrine defines gnosticism as heretical. I didn't condone anyone to hell or call anyone immoral for using LOA. I am merely saying that if you subscribe to the Catholic religion, then you might want to double check your beliefs

Lastly, on this point, I am not arguing that Catholicism is the right belief. If you are of another faith or atheist that is your choice.

While you do agree it has some merit, I haven't seen a positive post from you in regards to it. But if you say you are seeing it open mindedly then I will believe you. You may just be trying to fill the gaps you see in it, which is a valid form of research.

Originally Posted by newdad

By defenition a Christian believes in the teachings of Christ. There is no middle ground with his teachings. He either is all that He says he is or He is not the Christ. This is not an issue of proving facts, it is a belief system, either you adopt it or you don't.
The Catholic Church is quite emphatic on the nature of God and to say He is the universe, energy, source, etc...goes against doctrine. LOA is obviously a different belief system than that tought by the Catholic Church, therefore as a Catholic I can't adopt it as written.

I understand your point, but it still only applies to Christians then. It only negates LOA if Christianity happens to be the 'right club' to join to get into heaven. There are quite a lot of lot of them after all.... Perhaps he should at least prefix his statements with 'To a Christian this means...'

Originally Posted by newdad

As is asked in Why LOA will Fail. How then does a baby with no language or concept of something as abstract as positive and negative thoughts create their reality? Does a victimized baby lay in it's crib all day thinking. "I am unworthy and unloved and deserve to be beaten and abused."? Maybe they do, maybe the law holds true. If this is indeed a law than I propose a challenge for you.

Picking subjects like this are often very deliberate attempts to trap people because outwardly it would seem that a baby is so innocent and helpless that nothing bad should happen to them. So implying in any way that they are responsible for anything gets people very aggressive towards the person suggesting it, so you can't usually win in such a situation. You either have to go against your belief or say something that most people simply refuse to believe because babies are so cute and lovable and helpless.

Regardless I shall attempt to. One possibility.

A child which has no concious thought cannot consciously form beliefs, so where do they get them from? Well, where do all children get their beliefs?

From their parents.

Until they are old enough to start to form their own opinions and beliefs, the only belief most children hold is that their parent's are right. If LOA is a law, then it relies around the billions upon billions of thought waves interacting. So until a child can control those thought waves, their thought waves could conceivably succumb and tune in with those that they are in contact with most.

You can buy CD's which use sound to alter the frequency and pattern of your brain waves, why couldn't other brain waves do the same to other people?

People always talk about thinking about someone right before they call, or meeting someone and knowing immidiately that something is 'right' or 'wrong' with the person. Couldn't these simply be other examples of us picking up on another's thought patterns?

So if LOA revolves around thought patterns, and thought batterns can be altered by external influences, then it is a possibility that a child's beliefs are being formed subconsciously by their parent's beliefs even while they are still in the womb. Which would mean that if their parent's believe children should be abused, or that the world is a dangerous place for children, then there is a good chance the child will believe it also, and experience a childhood that reflects those beliefs.

Thought patterns aside, how many parent's tell their children on an almost daily basis that the world is dangerous? That they need to be careful or they will hurt themselves? What beliefs is this putting in their head? They certainly aren't going to be thinking about how safe they are are they?

Originally Posted by newdad

For the next thirty days concentrate on your ability to fly. Think "I am lighter than air. I soar at will." Picture yourself among the clouds defying gravity. Then, at the end of thirty days get yourself a camera and record yourself taking off from the ground and do a couple of loopty-loops. Surely, if the law is an absolute then this shouldn't be a problem.

If it was the -only- law then yes it shouldn't be a problem. There are other natural laws. LOA operates within the framework of the universe as do all other laws. Also even if LOA could wipe out the other laws, as I said above there is the issue of belief. I have 30 years of seeing thousands if not millions of people unable to fly. 30 days of affirmations will not create a belief strong enough to counter the belief that I can't fly. I am good at changing my beliefs, but not -that- good.

I can show you example of example of odd coincidences from my life that aligned perfectly with my intentions some good, some bad. But most of the major events in my life I can trace to beliefs I held at the time.

If I was to spend 30 days visualising flying, odds are good that I would actually find myself on a plane, or hangliding, or parachuting or some other such activity where I was, for a time flying.

[Dani]

Originally Posted by newdad

What about this? (I promise I won't quote scripture again in here.)

Matthew 6:
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat (or drink), or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds in the sky; they do not sow or reap, they gather nothing into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are not you more important than they? Can any of you by worrying add a single moment to your life-span? Why are you anxious about clothes? Learn from the way the wild flowers grow. They do not work or spin. But I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was clothed like one of them.If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is thrown into the oven tomorrow, will he not much more provide for you, O you of little faith? So do not worry and say, 'What are we to eat?' or 'What are we to drink?' or 'What are we to wear?' All these things the pagans seek. Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.But seek first the kingdom (of God) and his righteousness, and all these things will be given you besides.

Here it seems that Jesus is telling us not to worry about those things LOA teaches. Rather, just believe in God and let Him do the rest. It doesn't say, believe in God and He'll give you everything you want. The problem I have with LoA and it's associating Energy with God is that it doesn't leave room for God to say, "No."

I agree with you. I attribute this to the LGN, if we are scanning for positive things we won't notice the negative things.

That scripture has LOA written all over it, it supports my arguments not dispute them!
As you said your self, Believe in god and let him do the rest. That is what LOA is about. Have faith that you will recieve what you need.

Don't worry about clothes etc doesn't mean you won't recieve them. It means don't worry about them. When you -worry- about these things you actually push them away according to LOA.

As for leaving room for God to say 'no' why would he? He gave us free will and a whole universe to play with. Similar to what someone said above, do you really envension God sitting there with a score card putting ticks and crosses next to the things on your list of desires?

Jesus himself said that all of us were capable of what he did and more, through faith in God. (don't ask me to quote the scripture because honestly I forget, I wasn't intending to use it in a debate when I was reading it.)

Feel free to quote as many scriptures as you like. Most of them will simply support what I am saying when you look at them correctly. LOA is all about Faith. So is Christianity.

I do think however that the higher authorities in any church will generally be against LOA. Why? Because it erodes their power base. They lose control of their religion. The same as most are against you having a personal relationship with god. They will isnist that you need to come to church, pay your tithes and seek your guidance from the priest. Making you unable to function without them, and furthering their existence, and as in the case of the Catholic church (CC) in particular furthering their vast wealth.

The top priests in the CC live quite well off on the donations recieved by the church. Can you honestly see them wanting to give up any of that power and wealth by admitting that you can have any relationship with God except through them?

Most people look down their noses at some of the more strict muslim countries where common people are not allowed to even read the Koran by themselves, but must go to the mosque and ask the priest to read and interpret the meaning for them. Saying that this means the people have no idea about their religion from it's source, and only hear what the priests want them to hear, which leaves them open to cprruption.

But most Christian sects are the same, only less obvious.

As I said above, LOA isn't something you can turn off and on. If it exists you are using it all the time, every day, regardless of whether the Pope thinks it's the tool of Satan or not. The only difference is whether you make use of it by directing your thoughts consciously yourself, or let it make use of you by allowing the world around you to direct your thoughts for you.

Which would god want? A bunch of people mewling and crying they have no control and everything is everyone else's fault, or people striking out and making a life for themselves? Think of Jesus, and of the saints, which were they, free thinkers or members of the 'herd' ? You will find Christ's answer to LOA right there. In which case who's word and example should you be following?

Christ's, or a church which has a lot at stake by having you remain a needy member of the 'pity me, life is hard' herd?

[zpivat]

I'm Catholic and I don't think there's anything wrong with LOA......I think it's more or less similar to prayers.....

[Dani]

lol, I just read another of your articles. They had this to say.

The promise of The Secret does seem to echo the promise of the serpent. It promises that without help from man or God you can control your destiny. It assures you neither grace nor suffering are necessary. It makes you your own god, and leaves no room for a messiah who hung on a cross.

Of course, the cost of believing those promises is as high as ever, which is why the best way for Catholics to respond to The Secret is not to think “lovely, wonderful thoughts” about the phenomenon coming to a quick demise. Rather, Father Pacwa advised, Catholics need to help the culture rediscover their dependence on God’s grace and the redemptive power of suffering.

There you have it in a nutshell. They fear it because they believe it leaves no room for them as I said. If you can have a personal relationship with the universe/god/energy without them. Then they are no longer needed.

They tried to cloak it with leaves no room for christ, but it does. Many, if not most of the people on the movie The Secret are devout Christians.

I always found Christian churches strange seeing as Christ himself made no attempt to start a church, and if I remember correctly encouraged people to seek god themselves rather than in a church.

If churches are so important to communing with god, why didn't Christ build one and start charging tithes and doing sunday mass?

I am also not so keen on that rediscovering suffering bit. Why would any god want people to suffer????

[placebo]

All of the religion all stars - buddha, jesus, muhamed, etc are basicly talking the same stuff. There are no some big differences. Few days ago i've seen a movie Life of Buddha and somehow it looked so much familiar with teachings of Jesus so i can't believe only one religion is good. But things get difficult when you give life laws to stupid and rigid people who can't think for themselves. They become ortodox and think that they are living on Jesus' teaching but actually they are far from Jesus and living a happy life.

Same thing could happen if I invent new law called, for example law of eternal happiness. And i take all the things from LOA but it is called different name and maybe you should lay on your stomach while meditating. So nobody will accept it as religion or some life law even if it is the same thing. some people will say that i can't call LOA as LEH, some of them will say that you can't meditate on your stomach, etc. It is so stupid.

[newdad]

[QUOTE=Dani;58208]lol, I just read another of your articles. They had this to say.




There you have it in a nutshell. They fear it because they believe it leaves no room for them as I said. If you can have a personal relationship with the universe/god/energy without them. Then they are no longer needed.

They tried to cloak it with leaves no room for christ, but it does. Many, if not most of the people on the movie The Secret are devout Christians.

QUOTE]

Let me ask you this. What is it that people are focusing on when they are using LOA? Are they quietely concentrating on doing the will of God? Or, are they focusing on chasing an object of their desire?

I'm Catholic and I don't think there's anything wrong with LOA......I think it's more or less similar to prayers.....

I have been tought that when we pray we give thanks for what we have, ask for forgiveness for sins, and seek to live according to His will. I don't recall putting demands upon God, i.e., "Dear God, I intend to have that shiny new car. I will have it in thirty days."

That scripture has LOA written all over it, it supports my arguments not dispute them!
As you said your self, Believe in god and let him do the rest. That is what LOA is about. Have faith that you will recieve what you need.

Don't worry about clothes etc doesn't mean you won't recieve them. It means don't worry about them. When you -worry- about these things you actually push them away according to LOA.

As for leaving room for God to say 'no' why would he? He gave us free will and a whole universe to play with. Similar to what someone said above, do you really envension God sitting there with a score card putting ticks and crosses next to the things on your list of desires?

You are mistaken. The scripture says to "seek first the kingdom of God" and you wil get what you "need". LOA teaches you to seek the things YOU "want."
This is a huge difference. One teaches you to seek to follow the will of God, the other teaches you to follow your own will.

There are reasons for God to say no. Perhaps getting the thing you want would prevent a greater good from occuring in your life or the life of someone else. God has had a lot more time to know what is best for us. Just as I have had more time to learn what is best for my 13 y.o step-daughter, for example a few months ago she wanted to spend the night at a boys house. I told her no. He is a year older than her, lives most of his life with little supervision, dabbles in drugs, and is just an all around bad influence on her. She thought I was being unreasonable. I am not omniscient, perhaps she would be responsible enough to say no if drugs were introduced or sex was mentioned, but I know that people don't always think straight when they are enamoured. I weighed the possible consequences, if I say no the consequence is she is angry with me maybe she'll hate me for a while. If I say yes, I have just increase the odds that she will experiment with drugs or sex. Even though I said no, my step-daughter still had free will. She still desired to go to the boys house and she chose to be angry when she didn't get what she wanted. Instead she got what she needed and that was protection from a possible harm.

Somebody might disagree with my decision, saying that I am not showing her any trust. I think it was a fairly reasonable decision. Even if I was wrong, it is due to my limited abiltity to predict future outcomes. Just as, when we place demands on God for something, we don't know the outcomes. If He is omniscient, then he knows the outcome and being a benevolent God, he may choose not to comply with the demand because he is seeking a greater good for all.

Yes, He wants you to seek the best life as possible. But, I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where he mentioned that the best life is one full of money, big houses, shiny watches, and expensive cars. He spoke of seeking Him first. We are incapable of focusing on more than one thing at a time. We can focus on many things during a day, but only one at a time. If you spend of your day focusing on getting what you "want", then you are not focusing on God and what you "need."

Enough said, as I was looking for more sections to quote and argue I realized that this has more or less turned into a discussion about whether Christianity--Catholicism in particular-is a good or bad thing. Based on lots of the comments I feel obliged to defend the Church. I will say one thing in defense. I have never been told that I can't have an intimate relationship with God. In fact, every priest that I have ever had the pleasure of speaking with has encourage me to have an intimate relationship. At no time, have I ever heard one of them say anything along the lines of "If you don't go to church, you are going to hell."

Dani, I appreciate the time and effort you put into your arguments. You had a lot of thoughtful insights and gave me something to ponder. I am sure the result of the debate is this: Through the act of defending my position I have become more resolved and confident of my stance that LOA is not compatable with the Church. And you are more certain than ever that LOA works. As you can see, we really have been arguing two different things all along.

Most people in this forum, probably agree with you. I hope that those of you that do believe in LOA get everything you want. I will pray that everyone here has a chance to grow and become more effective in their lives. This is the main purpose of the forum.