Busting Loose From the Me-Centered Life

[James81]

(I just had to use the words "busting loose" there. )

Anyway, as I was typing a reply to another thread, the idea for this thread hit me and I thought I'd explore it/share it and see what everybody else thinks.

And that was the realization that a lot of the topics in personal development today are very "me-centered." That is, it puts the particular person at the center of the universe. Think about it....

Subjective Reality
Intention-Manifestation
LoA
What career is right for me?
What do I expect out of life?
When will I find my soulmate?

All of these types of issues (and gads more) are asked on a daily basis...and uttered in prayers (God, please help me...God help me get this..God will you do this for me?)...

It such a common practice to phrase things in a "me-centered" way, that we rarely even notice it's happening.

What if those subjects I listed were switched from a "me-centered" model and flipped in perspective to a more "helio-centric" (did you remember to study your science books before opening the thread!!?? ) model...that is, phrasing questions to yourself in such a way that things aren't revolving around YOU, but, rather, you are revolving and moving around things.

For example:

LoA/IM: What if (and I've asked this question before here) instead of viewing the law of attraction and IM as drawing things to YOU, you instead viewed them as whatever you want drawing YOU to IT? (does that make sense?)

Subjective Reality: What if, instead of viewing other people as projections/interpretations of yourself and the meaning you assing to those people, that you viewed reality through the lense that you are someone else's projection?

For the questions I asked, what if you reframed them like this:

What career am I right for? (instead of "What career is right for me?)
What does life expect from me? (instead of "What do I expect from life?")
When will my soulmate find me? (instead of "when will I find my soulmate?")

You may say that reframing it in such a way leaves you powerless...but does it? Really? I think that if you think about it, I think that removing the "me-center" from it all creates a context in which you generate meaning for yourself, rather than letting life happen TO you.

I'll stop there. For what it's worth, this is just a "theory"...something I'm exploring, and isn't something to be preached as gospel. I'm looking for discussion on what you think...and, more importantly, I'm looking for bold agreement and expansion (synergy) rather than debate.

[Angela]

They sound like perspective-expanding questions to me!

[spacecadetglow]

Love it! Synchronistic post, as this has been on my mind, as well.

I like your re-frames. Especially seeing yourself as someone else's projection, and "when will my soulmate find me?" Takes a whole lot of the pressure off, right?

This to me suggets a certain surrender that most PD material eschews. I dunno about you guys, but to me it seems a lot of PD is centered around control. It makes me uncomfortable, in the same way that 100% responsibility once did. It's this urge to do, to work. Which for me tends to trigger the "am I working hard enough? Am I good enough?' buttons of mine.

Balance is key. It's the difference between the girl who so desperately wants a boyfriend that she devotes all her free time to going out to bars, talking to men, scoping them out to see if they meet her criteria for "the one", etc. and the girl who has a good idea of what she wants and knows he will come her way when the time is right.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by James81

the meaning you assing to those people

James, is that a new verb you created there?

This all reminds me of JFK "Ask not what your country can do for you..."

[James81]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

This to me suggets a certain surrender that most PD material eschews. I dunno about you guys, but to me it seems a lot of PD is centered around control. It makes me uncomfortable, in the same way that 100% responsibility once did. It's this urge to do, to work. Which for me tends to trigger the "am I working hard enough? Am I good enough?' buttons of mine.

I was just thinking about this yesterday.

I finished reading Byron Katie's A Thousand Names for Joy last week and, for the most part, I found it truly enlightening. But there was also a niggly feeling while reading it that some of it was bordering on psychosis (loss of touch with reality).

I remember while reading it thinking, "Hmmm, *some* (not all) of this really looks like a protective shield...an armor of sorts...to protect herself from the pain that exists in reality." And a lot of it occured as a great way to deal with that pain (asking the four questions, doing the turnaround).

I remember thinking to myself...hmmm, there is a fine line between enlightenment and psychosis. (LOL!)

And then that question popped up in my mind...what does this mean about me? Am I just resisting the message?

And, the answer was no, I wasn't. I was gleaning the parts that were empowering to me, and the other parts were my intuition. So, I decided to start googling for people's reactions to her work, thinking I was gonna get a bunch of people who just didn't *get* it....what I found, instead, was several reports of things like this:

Byron Katie's School For The Work March '09

And I went , holy crap, it's like a cult and some of that stuff is just out of touch with reality and borderline insanity/extremely controlling and manipulative.

And I can say and believe my intuition BECAUSE I've done the intese examination of myself and my "gremlins." Because of that, I think, I've come more into contact with my true intuition (rather than being fooled by my own reactivations).

That is, because I took the "me-centered" intense self-examination, I can now shift away from that perspective and trust my intuition more. So, examining those limiting thoughts and behaviors DO serve a great purpose in that they build trustworthiness of your more *authentic* reactions.

It was an eye-opening realization for me. And very "me-centered."

[NSS]

Originally Posted by James81

And that was the realization that a lot of the topics in personal development today are very "me-centered." That is, it puts the particular person at the center of the universe. Think about it....

It's called personal development. Of course it's going to be me-centred.

[curiouslyrandom]

For example:

LoA/IM: What if (and I've asked this question before here) instead of viewing the law of attraction and IM as drawing things to YOU, you instead viewed them as whatever you want drawing YOU to IT? (does that make sense?)

Subjective Reality: What if, instead of viewing other people as projections/interpretations of yourself and the meaning you assing to those people, that you viewed reality through the lense that you are someone else's projection?

For the questions I asked, what if you reframed them like this:

What career am I right for? (instead of "What career is right for me?)
What does life expect from me? (instead of "What do I expect from life?")
When will my soulmate find me? (instead of "when will I find my soulmate?")

I do agree with these concepts, and have used a few in recent months. Not the assing part, though.

Being drawn towards my ideal career for me means traveling around much more than I have been. I have no idea what to do to make it all happen, but I believe it will come together when I'm in the right frame of mind and the ideal situation comes together. I'm not going to demand it happen NOW because I don't think I'm ready yet.

[Criseyde]

Cool. I've been thinking about this lately too.

I think focusing entirely on what you/I want and how you/I can get that is a good way to become completely narcissistic.

It reminds me of a quote from my favorite Hardy novel, Far From the Madding Crowd:

George's son had done his work so thoroughly that he was considered too good a workman to live -- and was, in fact, taken and tragically shot at twelve o'clock that same day -- another instance of the untoward fate which so often attends dogs and other philosophers who follow out a train of reasoning to its logical conclusion, and attempt perfectly consistent conduct in a world made up so largely of compromise.

Flaws and compromise. Two things that this PD paradigm seems not to entertain, that I'm starting to see a lot of value in. (Goes along with the me-centeredness, I think.)

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by James81

I was just thinking about this yesterday.

I finished reading Byron Katie's A Thousand Names for Joy last week and, for the most part, I found it truly enlightening. But there was also a niggly feeling while reading it that some of it was bordering on psychosis (loss of touch with reality).

I remember while reading it thinking, "Hmmm, *some* (not all) of this really looks like a protective shield...an armor of sorts...to protect herself from the pain that exists in reality." And a lot of it occured as a great way to deal with that pain (asking the four questions, doing the turnaround).

I remember thinking to myself...hmmm, there is a fine line between enlightenment and psychosis. (LOL!)

And then that question popped up in my mind...what does this mean about me? Am I just resisting the message?

And, the answer was no, I wasn't. I was gleaning the parts that were empowering to me, and the other parts were my intuition. So, I decided to start googling for people's reactions to her work, thinking I was gonna get a bunch of people who just didn't *get* it....what I found, instead, was several reports of things like this:

Byron Katie's School For The Work March '09

And I went , holy crap, it's like a cult and some of that stuff is just out of touch with reality and borderline insanity/extremely controlling and manipulative.

And I can say and believe my intuition BECAUSE I've done the intese examination of myself and my "gremlins." Because of that, I think, I've come more into contact with my true intuition (rather than being fooled by my own reactivations).

That is, because I took the "me-centered" intense self-examination, I can now shift away from that perspective and trust my intuition more. So, examining those limiting thoughts and behaviors DO serve a great purpose in that they build trustworthiness of your more *authentic* reactions.

It was an eye-opening realization for me. And very "me-centered."

Holy ♥♥♥♥♥, James! THIS. This is what I'm talking about when I say I don't want to pay $300 (or $5000 in this case ) to get brainwashed. Unreal. I didn't really get much out of The Work. I mean, generally it seems like just as good a tool as anything else but almost...hypnotic, in a way. Asking the same 4 questions. I guess that's the whole point, because hypnosis is indeed an accepted form of self help.

I'd rather not have to trick my mind into thinking differently than it does. Noticing the gremlins when they appear is enough for now. I don't think I'm interested in joining a large group of walking zombies and giving up my autonomy to brainless, unethical crap like this. Work shmerk.

And no, my reaction here is not my gremlin, this constitutes psychotic, cult-like behavior that I want no part of.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

I mean, generally it seems like just as good a tool as anything else but almost...hypnotic, in a way. Asking the same 4 questions..

Actually, The Work is the opposite of hypnosis -- it's about breaking trance, rather than getting into trance.

Which is not to say I want you to pay money to join a zombie cult!

[st33med]

Originally Posted by Angela

Actually, The Work is the opposite of hypnosis -- it's about breaking trance, rather than getting into trance.

Which is not to say I want you to pay money to join a zombie cult!

Oh come on. It would be fun to want to eat brains!

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

You know, call me old fashioned, but looking back it seems like the most awesome spiritual sages sort of didn't ever charge money to share their information.

I'm-a just sayin.

I know spiritual sages gotta eat and all, but they don't gotta eat caviar...

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

You know, call me old fashioned, but looking back it seems like the most awesome spiritual sages sort of didn't ever charge money to share their information..

I don't think Byron Katie is a spiritual sage, or that it's information she's sharing. She's someone who has a talent for inspiring an insightful state that she shares with others, and many people feel it's worth paying money to get the value from that talent.

The Work itself is free -- you don't have to pay to do it.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by Angela

Actually, The Work is the opposite of hypnosis -- it's about breaking trance, rather than getting into trance.

Which is not to say I want you to pay money to join a zombie cult!

Actually, that's just your perspective. I see your point, but after I did it, I found myself asking the 4 questions when I experienced an unpleasant emotion to no avail. It just seemed like mindless repetition to me and wasn't really getting me anywhere after a certain point.

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

You know, call me old fashioned, but looking back it seems like the most awesome spiritual sages sort of didn't ever charge money to share their information.

I'm-a just sayin.

I know spiritual sages gotta eat and all, but they don't gotta eat caviar...

Word. F that s. Idk man, great as a tool it may be for some, all this gunk that's coming out about Katie makes me inherently distrust her.

Some New Age/PD stuff is so f*cking creepy to me. If it looks like dogma, walks like dogma, talks like dogma...

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Angela

I don't think Byron Katie is a spiritual sage, or that it's information she's sharing. She's someone who has a talent for inspiring an insightful state that she shares with others, and many people feel it's worth paying money to get the value from that talent.

The Work itself is free -- you don't have to pay to do it.

Well the link that James put up describes what I would call a horrific and abusive experience in brainwashing. Maybe that's what Byron Katie is talented at. Forced fasting? Encouraging severely mentally ill people to decompensate? Forcing the relatively mentally stable people to endure the moaning and weeping of people breaking down day after day? Having someone at the workshop have to be taken to a mental hospital?!

Feck that, I'll try another tactic.

[spacecadetglow]

I think she's got a talent for making delicious Kool Aid.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Actually, that's just your perspective. I see your point, but after I did it, I found myself asking the 4 questions when I experienced an unpleasant emotion to no avail. It just seemed like mindless repetition to me and wasn't really getting me anywhere after a certain point.

Yes, it is my perspective that the intention of The Work, and how it does indeed work for many people, is that it breaks them out of their trance-like thinking -- that is, their own self-hypnotizing thoughts.

If you are mindlessly repeating the questions, rather than actually doing the inquiry, you're not doing The Work as it's meant to be done by the creator of The Work.

[quote]

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yes, it is my perspective that the intention of The Work, and how it does indeed work for many people, is that it breaks them out of their trance-like thinking -- that is, their own self-hypnotizing thoughts.

If you are mindlessly repeating the questions, rather than actually doing the inquiry, you're not doing The Work as it's meant to be done by the creator of The Work.

...is it really so hard to believe that a technique, just because it works for you and others, might not necessarily be the best one for me? Does it have to mean I'm not following the instructions properly? Please don't insult my intelligence.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Whatever. Not for me. Thanks for pushing my buttons again, though!

There is an element of self judgment in some respect, at least for me... "There must be something wrong with me, I'm not doing it right" if all these other people get benefit from it and I don't.

I did benefit to a certain extent, but I felt intuitively like I was prevaricating. Getting near to something that was significant in terms of unification and realization, but not quite getting to it...

For me Nan Yar? works better because the whole idea of coming to terms with something seems flimsy, irrelevant - what is there to come to terms with? Some events that happened?

It's clear to me that we all identify who we are through a self selected handful of mental conditions - qualities, stories, narratives we repeat to ourselves to reinforce that which we define as who I am. Traumas, tragedies, neuroses - those are character traits of that self created identity.

The danger comes when you abandon attachment to one self concept - say, as a victim - and pick up another self concept - say, as one who has overcome victimhood and seeks to help other victims overcome.

That's still another false identity, and like any other man made thing, it will erode after time. While Byron Katie's perspective was at one time fresh, it has become (over time) just as dogmatic as any other approach that intends to convert the world.

Lately I exist in the gray area of relativism and I think that everyone is on their way, it happens naturally and inevitably, and no conversion is necessary. That we must take pains to protect the delicate flowering of every individual consciousness.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

...is it really so hard to believe that a technique, just because it works for you and others, might not necessarily be the best one for me? Does it have to mean I'm not following the instructions properly? Please don't insult my intelligence.

No, I think it's very likely that a tool that works for one person won't work for another. But if you're not using the tool the way it's intended to be used, that doesn't mean the tool is faulty.

That the tool doesn't work for you isn't what would mean you're not following the instructions properly -- it's that you are mindless repeating the questions, rather than doing an inquiry, that would mean you're not following the instructions properly.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

There is an element of self judgment in some respect, at least for me... "There must be something wrong with me, I'm not doing it right" if all these other people get benefit from it and I don't.

I did benefit to a certain extent, but I felt intuitively like I was prevaricating. Getting near to something that was significant in terms of unification and realization, but not quite getting to it...

For me Nan Yar? works better because the whole idea of coming to terms with something seems flimsy, irrelevant - what is there to come to terms with? Some events that happened?

It's clear to me that we all identify who we are through a self selected handful of mental conditions - qualities, stories, narratives we repeat to ourselves to reinforce that which we define as who I am. Traumas, tragedies, neuroses - those are character traits of that self created identity.

The danger comes when you abandon attachment to one self concept - say, as a victim - and pick up another self concept - say, as one who has overcome victimhood and seeks to help other victims overcome.

That's still another false identity, and like any other man made thing, it will erode after time. While Byron Katie's perspective was at one time fresh, it has become (over time) just as dogmatic as any other approach that intends to convert the world.

Lately I exist in the gray area of relativism and I think that everyone is on their way, it happens naturally and inevitably, and no conversion is necessary. That we must take pains to protect the delicate flowering of every individual consciousness.

Bah, edited that part out but you got to it before. Oh well.

Yeah, I have to agree with you here. I despise dogma. So much. More than lots of things.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by Angela

No, I think it's very likely that a tool that works for one person won't work for another. But if you're not using the tool the way it's intended to be used, that doesn't mean the tool is faulty.

That the tool doesn't work for you isn't what would mean you're not following the instructions properly -- it's that you are mindless repeating the questions, rather than doing an inquiry, that would mean you're not following the instructions properly.

Sigh. Whatever. She's a nutjob, and I don't feel like defending myself anymore here. I'm out for now.

[Excellent Lodestar]

I'm about as skeptical of New age/Pd stuff as they come, and I think "The Work" is as far away from that stuff as it gets...I didn't "get it" the first time I tried it either; let it go and tried it three years later and suddenly "problems" weren't.(In that time away I was also reading Tolle and Nisargadatta)

BK will be the FIRST to say she knows nothing about enlightenment; she's just someone who knows the difference between what hurts and what doesn't.

I wouldn't dream of paying 5 dimes for some "work" retreats or whatever-- Like Angela said, it's free. Is Byron Katie a scammer? I don't know anything about that; I don't care. The "work" is about Realization,and it comes from YOUR answers, no one else.

[VinceG]

I'm looking at Byron Katie's website, "The Work," should have been, "The Homework." Which I never did in grade school and I'm not about to start doing now

[Angela]

Originally Posted by VinceG

I'm looking at Byron Katie's website, "The Work," should have been, "The Homework." Which I never did in grade school and I'm not about to start doing now

It can feel a little daunting when you're first doing it. After a short time, you can get pretty adept at it, and do The Work on a thought lickety split - like in a matter of a minute or two. Pretty fast homework for transforming struggle to breakthrough.

[kenny r]

Your perspective works I think.

Except I would never say, "How can I help the Universe win the lottery?"

Originally Posted by James81

Subjective Reality: What if, instead of viewing other people as projections/interpretations of yourself and the meaning you assing to those people, that you viewed reality through the lense that you are someone else's projection?

What if you come to realize you do not exist at all, because you are only an imaginary dream-character in someone else's subjective reality?

You may say that reframing it in such a way leaves you powerless...

I feel that way often but actually, powerlessness is not a real thing.

To quote NSS (with emphasis)
It's called personal development. Of course it's going to be me-centred.

[spacecadetglow]

Sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself is to realize that you're not as all-important as you thought.

[cylon]

Well, I know that whatever we do, we do because doing it makes us feel good, or feel better than we did before.

And at the heart of that is self-interest.

Whether you put your focus on your self, or your focus on others, or your focus on nothing at all, you are most likely doing it because to do so makes you happier.

Can't escape your own self-interest.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself is to realize that you're not as all-important as you thought.

And sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself is to recognize that you're not as unimportant as you thought.

[Daffy Duck]

And sometimes the best thing you can do for yourself is kick some flowers.