Inner knowing, subjective reality, and 'mental illness'?

[delias]

Hi,
I have been reading a lot about subjective reality and the idea that our world is more of a dream world as opposed to being 'out there'.

By the standards of the APA, I would be classed as having dissociative identity disorder, otherwise known as multiple personality disorder. To the majority of people, this is seen as an illness. A large part of the 'disorder' includes experiences of depersonalization, which by definition means experiencing yourself or the things around you as 'not being real'.

If we have a much broader, wiser consciousness that in a way 'dreams up' our experiences, then a lot of my childhood experiences make perfect sense. I remember experiencing, and still experience, in times of great stress and discord, myself and the things around me not being 'real'. In fact I used to complain that my waking reality seemed less real than my nighttime dreams. I would look at my hands and they would look alien to me, I would think, 'this is not ME', this is strange. If a part of my consciousness was creating something I did not like, it was as if another part of my consciousness would step in and say, 'this is not as real as you think, this is really an imaginary creation'.

It was as if the lower part of myself, my ego, or the part of me that is trapped in thinking all of this is real would struggle, and then my higher, broader consciousness would step in and say, 'think again...this is not as real as you think it is, you do not have to dream or experience this, you can go somewhere else with your dream and your experience'.

This is interesting because I have always been in a tug of war with myself about my experience. I would imagine a mother into my life, and at the same time believed I could never fully experience one in my life. Now I find myself in a situation where I have created both realities. I have one, and at the same time I do not. I imagined almost the perfect mother, and one day she manifested...but at the same time I struggle to imagine her being real in my experience, in my world fully, and so I am hitting this obstacle. This imaginary creation, if it is so, mirrors my own fears perfectly about the possibility of having a mother in my life fully. She says the very things I fear. She displays the very limitations I am afraid exist. When I imagine her saying or doing things, it seems she does them in my so called 'external' reality.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

I think this lecture may be of interest to you:

The Varieties of Religious Experience

[cylon]

Originally Posted by delias

By the standards of the APA, I would be classed as having dissociative identity disorder, otherwise known as multiple personality disorder.

Or, you could be just someone who is really into metaphysics and enjoys trying out new belief systems.

Let's not diagnose ourselves with mental illness just because we like to use our imaginations and ask the question "what if?"

[delias]

Originally Posted by cylon

Or, you could be just someone who is really into metaphysics and enjoys trying out new belief systems.

Let's not diagnose ourselves with mental illness just because we like to use our imaginations and ask the question "what if?"

That is an interesting way of looking at it. I'm sure most psychiatrists and counsellors would disagree. My experience of reality has been very subjective all along, I must have just have a part of me that still is in a tug of war vs. reality or non-reality. As I am now in this moment, if I tried to put my leg up over my head I would tear a muscle. But there are also moments where I am '3' in terms of subjective time, and in those moments I could easily put my leg behind my head with no damage to muscles whatsoever. I have had moments where I am walking and the sidewalk appears to be only 3 feet away, as if I am 3 feet tall, where in objective reality I am 5 feet tall.

[delias]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

I think this lecture may be of interest to you:

The Varieties of Religious Experience

Thankyou for the link. I read it but I have to admit it was a little over my head at this stage.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by delias

That is an interesting way of looking at it. I'm sure most psychiatrists and counsellors would disagree.

I couldn't care less what others think of me. I know myself. That's enough.

[delias]

I like your point of view.

[cylon]

When I was younger I was very concerned with what was wrong with me. I went to psychiatrists, I got medication. Most of my life has been a "dark night of the soul."

But, at a certain point I realized all the people who supposedly have all the answers have their own problems too. Somehow, in my mind, that realization put me on equal footing with everyone else. I stopped seeing people as either better than or worse than. We're all the same. All trying to figure things out and live our lives with some semblance of peace and happiness.

[Kishka]

Originally Posted by delias

That is an interesting way of looking at it. I'm sure most psychiatrists and counsellors would disagree. My experience of reality has been very subjective all along, I must have just have a part of me that still is in a tug of war vs. reality or non-reality. As I am now in this moment, if I tried to put my leg up over my head I would tear a muscle. But there are also moments where I am '3' in terms of subjective time, and in those moments I could easily put my leg behind my head with no damage to muscles whatsoever. I have had moments where I am walking and the sidewalk appears to be only 3 feet away, as if I am 3 feet tall, where in objective reality I am 5 feet tall.

Delias I relate to much of what you wrote here and your OP. Especially when you talk about childhood experiences such as questioning whether this is a 'dream' or 'real'. When I was about 7 I wrote a poem called 'I Wonder' (never forgot it for some reason)

Sometimes I wonder
if the world is real
or is it just a dream

I wonder if people are real
I wonder if I am real
I wonder about everything

Also in the post above when you talk experiencing that 'near'/'far'/'near'/'far' shifting of reality in a given moment. (I had that weird sensation with perceiving objects as alternating between small and large. Hard to describe, but it sounds that's what you've experienced as well.

Thanks for sharing!

[delias]

Originally Posted by Kishka

Also in the post above when you talk experiencing that 'near'/'far'/'near'/'far' shifting of reality in a given moment. (I had that weird sensation with perceiving objects as alternating between small and large. Hard to describe, but it sounds that's what you've experienced as well.

Hi Kishka,
First of all love the poem. It seems like when we are younger we remember and sense these things, that the world isn't necessarily as real as you would think. I get this often, 'but that's not reality', and I remember a lot of the adults in my life saying similar things to me growing up. I wonder if what happens is we already know that reality isn't always as it seems when we are kids, but over the years we get taught otherwise. So in a sense instead of 'learning' as you grow, you are 'unlearning'. Then you go back and unlearn the unlearning!

A lot of 'well-adjusted' adults seem to know a lot about the world and reality. These same adults don't have the type of experiences I described or the ones you described---and I have had those too. The most recent that springs to mind is seeing a lamp and from my vantage point, whatever state of consciousness I was in, it appeared to be HUGE, like a giant, like it was as big as me. So I know, at least I think I know, exactly what you are describing.

Another thought I had was that when you keep a part of your consciousness at that very 'young' or 'newer' level, you retain some of that naturally, so some of it is never really unlearned. People who don't keep that seem to unlearn it and completely forget, if that makes sense.

[tlaskcor]

Originally Posted by cylon

I couldn't care less what others think of me. I know myself. That's enough.

And if you're a serial killer who holds this view.....??

[cylon]

I'm not a serial killer who holds that view.

Take your overreactions elsewhere.

[tlaskcor]

No, you're not. But my point is what about people whose actions are acceptable in their own eyes, but the majority/authority would disagree? This post is about mental illness, is it not? I don't believe my question was an overreaction, but valid to the question of where does subjective thinking end and mental illness begin.

Actually, I am surprised by what I see as your overreaction. Did I unknowingly hit some kind of button? You're such a thoughtful man.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by tlaskcor

But my point is what about people whose actions are acceptable in their own eyes, but the majority/authority would disagree?

I can't really comment on that, I can only speak for myself.

Your quote was about my own view of how I feel, about me. As such I don't see how that relates to being a serial killer. And I couldn't speak for a serial killer anyway.

Thanks for the complement on being a thoughtful man.

[tlaskcor]

And maybe I should have articulated my point better. It wasn't directed at you personally at all. I just meant what happens when someone sees their own behavior as ok, when others disagree? It is a sticking point with me with the whole idea of seeing everything as subjective. At what point does a lack of a grasp of a definable reality create insanity?

And I don't mean highly creative/intelligent/misunderstood people. That's why I used what I felt was a term of someone who is generally seen as a danger and threat to societal well being.

[cylon]

Well the thing about SR is that you stop worrying about what other people do. Because they are you. You focus on what you are doing. Because, it's all you. Anytime something happens to someone else and it bothers you, it's your own internal feelings manifesting into "physical" form.

[escapeplan]

Originally Posted by cylon

When I was younger I was very concerned with what was wrong with me. I went to psychiatrists, I got medication. Most of my life has been a "dark night of the soul."

But, at a certain point I realized all the people who supposedly have all the answers have their own problems too. Somehow, in my mind, that realization put me on equal footing with everyone else. I stopped seeing people as either better than or worse than. We're all the same. All trying to figure things out and live our lives with some semblance of peace and happiness.

I like the second paragraph you wrote, and you're right. My only thoughts would be that yes, we should all be on an equal footing- but does it make sense to dismiss the viewpoints of experts just because they don't always get it right?

Medicine has saved many but still I hear people say things like "Oh, Doctors- what to they know?" Well, probably they make mistakes, and don't know it all, but I'd rather yield to knowledge that has been passed down, tweeked and improved over the years by those who studied it than dismiss it on a hunch that "I know myself".

We can still be on an equal footing, without dismissing "expert" opinion, just because sometimes experts are wrong.

[cylon]

I should add that since I adopted a LOA, and then SR view, that my sense of personal responsibility has increased. I really do see the world as a reflection of my inner self.

That is a LOT of responsibility. And I've noticed many people when first coming to learn about this stuff see that responsibility as a burden. Probably because they think if it's their responsibility, they have to think it out of existence, and thinking is a lot of work.

It just makes sense to look at everyone with love. Even when it's a challenge to do so. In my experience what you put out is always reflected back to you. So, put out fear, and that will come back. Put out love, and that will come back.

Is it easy? Yes and no. It's easy when you are feeling loved and connected. When ego takes over, it's harder because thinking about "other people" by definition makes you feel separate.

[Parthon]

What about the guy with the tinfoil hat screaming at passing cars?
What about the oil baron that exploits 3rd world countries for profit?

The first one is crazy, and the second one sane. What they are both doing is legal. Which one has the worst impact on the world?

It's more of an inquiry into what is real, what is fake and where we draw the line for mental illness. One person talks to god and we lock them up in a padded cell. Another person talks to god and we elect them president again. Someone thinks reality isn't real and that we should all see through the illusion and becomes a spiritual guru. Another person thinks reality isn't real and is put on drugs to combat their 'disassociative state'.

This goes into questions like "What is reality?" and "What is experience?" I can see how having such a wibbly-wobbly viewpoint would make it hard to live in modern society, but it doesn't mean you are broken, no matter what the doctors day.

All I can think of is that it's perfectly natural to be this way, but why do you think you are this way?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by escapeplan

We can still be on an equal footing, without dismissing "expert" opinion, just because sometimes experts are wrong.

To me equal footing means allowing anyone to dismiss whatever they want to. If I want freedom of choice then I must give it to you as well.

[escapeplan]

Originally Posted by Parthon

What about the guy with the tinfoil hat screaming at passing cars?
What about the oil baron that exploits 3rd world countries for profit?

The first one is crazy, and the second one sane. What they are both doing is legal. Which one has the worst impact on the world?

It's more of an inquiry into what is real, what is fake and where we draw the line for mental illness. One person talks to god and we lock them up in a padded cell. Another person talks to god and we elect them president again. Someone thinks reality isn't real and that we should all see through the illusion and becomes a spiritual guru. Another person thinks reality isn't real and is put on drugs to combat their 'disassociative state'.

This goes into questions like "What is reality?" and "What is experience?" I can see how having such a wibbly-wobbly viewpoint would make it hard to live in modern society, but it doesn't mean you are broken, no matter what the doctors day.

All I can think of is that it's perfectly natural to be this way, but why do you think you are this way?

I get your point, but I don't think it's wise to imply to people that they should ignore medical opinion.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by escapeplan

I get your point, but I don't think it's wise to imply to people that they should ignore medical opinion.

I remember we had this discussion about medicine a few days ago. I would never suggest someone ignore medical opinion. If I did so, that would be me trying to assert my reality into someone else's life. I don't want others doing that to me so I sure wouldn't want to do someone else.

If someone believed that medicine, or psychiatry would help them, then it probably would. If your beliefs define your reality, and you are seeking healing, wouldn't it make sense for you to do the things that most represent healing to you?

Why would anyone want to tell someone else to ignore something, especially when that person never asked my opinion in the first place?

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by escapeplan

I get your point, but I don't think it's wise to imply to people that they should ignore medical opinion.

I think it's very wise to ignore medical opinion.

But only when medical opinion is wrong.

The question is, how can you tell when it's right or wrong?

If you listen to doctors, they are never wrong.

If you read the news, doctors are always misdiagnosing people.

Which means doctors and medial opinions are just as fallible as the rest of human society.

So the goal is still the same: Do the best for yourself as possible while not harming others.

Listen to experts as much as you want to get as much information as you can, but when they start giving you drugs to alter your state of mind in order to make you "more normal", it's time to stop and ask some questions. If I was sick or injured a doctor is just the person I would want to see. When it comes to questions about the nature of reality I think I would rather ask an expert in that field instead.

[escapeplan]

Originally Posted by Parthon

I think it's very wise to ignore medical opinion.

But only when medical opinion is wrong.

The question is, how can you tell when it's right or wrong?

If you listen to doctors, they are never wrong.

If you read the news, doctors are always misdiagnosing people.

Which means doctors and medial opinions are just as fallible as the rest of human society.

So the goal is still the same: Do the best for yourself as possible while not harming others.

Listen to experts as much as you want to get as much information as you can, but when they start giving you drugs to alter your state of mind in order to make you "more normal", it's time to stop and ask some questions. If I was sick or injured a doctor is just the person I would want to see. When it comes to questions about the nature of reality I think I would rather ask an expert in that field instead.

Your last sentence says it all though. Everyone here who doesn't view the world "normally" considers themselves an expert on the subject, quoting everything from quantum physics to astral projection to prove their point. No one does ask experts about the nature of reality because they are sure they fully understand it already.

For the person with a mental illness, that is worrying!

[Parthon]

But the list of mental illnesses is HUGE. If you are sad then you have depression, if you are happy then you are out of touch with reality, if you are angry then you have rage issues and if you you are scared then it's an anxiety disorder. And there's pills to take to handle all of those.

It's normally at this point that I question the motives of the entire medical industry, but you can do that for me.

But the OP highlighted the question perfectly. Does he actually have a mental illness, or is it just a case that his view of the world is just different from the rest?

[cylon]

This is part 4, part 3 gives a bit more background, but this is the most relevant clip:

The Trap: The Loney Robot

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=1YRIbbTDApc&feature=related

[escapeplan]

Originally Posted by Parthon

But the list of mental illnesses is HUGE. If you are sad then you have depression, if you are happy then you are out of touch with reality, if you are angry then you have rage issues and if you you are scared then it's an anxiety disorder. And there's pills to take to handle all of those.

It's normally at this point that I question the motives of the entire medical industry, but you can do that for me.

But the OP highlighted the question perfectly. Does he actually have a mental illness, or is it just a case that his view of the world is just different from the rest?

I think if there's any doubt the OP should seek medical advice- and not rely on anything we say.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by delias

That is an interesting way of looking at it. I'm sure most psychiatrists and counsellors would disagree. My experience of reality has been very subjective all along, I must have just have a part of me that still is in a tug of war vs. reality or non-reality. As I am now in this moment, if I tried to put my leg up over my head I would tear a muscle. But there are also moments where I am '3' in terms of subjective time, and in those moments I could easily put my leg behind my head with no damage to muscles whatsoever. I have had moments where I am walking and the sidewalk appears to be only 3 feet away, as if I am 3 feet tall, where in objective reality I am 5 feet tall.

Well, FWIW, dissociative identity disorder is usually diagnosed concurrently with post traumatic stress disorder; I've never heard of a case where the patient was just randomly labeled with this (at least in peer reviewed literature). Usually there is a severe trauma of some sort, or series of traumas that cause a young child to learn the skill of de-individuation. In children this is usually seen as a protective mechanism because they are put under enormous amounts of psychological stress and are objectified by someone else, in turn...

I deal a lot directly with young children NOW, and I see that in children who are taught that they are safe, who experience a somewhat regular amount of behavioral consistency from their parents will not have a strong tendency to dissociate. I've actually only ever seen the behavior in severely sexually abused girls.

I found my purpose through the therapeutic intervention I received over the many years that ensued. I found real benefit from the integration that was offered to me through these means.

At this point I am truly grateful to all those who used my physical body. The intense suffering that ensued allowed first that dissociation, then a terrible amount of doubt, fear, hatred, greed, envy, and anger; and eventually, the union of my shattered personality transformed into an intense level of compassion.

[delias]

The whole question of sanity and reality is a hard one to pin down I think. I know I go through periods where I am truly afraid I am going insane. I guess if I am still able to consciously consider the possibility, then by definition I must not be. If I can still ask myself, 'Am I going insane? Am I crazy?' Then I must still have some wits about me somewhere.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Parthon

But the OP highlighted the question perfectly. Does he actually have a mental illness, or is it just a case that his view of the world is just different from the rest?

a good psychologist worth his or her salt would counter with the questions: are they hurting other people? Are they hurting themselves? Is their worldview interfering with the natural human instinct for growth and change?

The field of psychology has come a long way since Freud; and certainly is not affiliated with psychiatry since psychologists do not dispense psychotropic medication. Ever. They lack the medical license to do so.

In my opinion the person seeking advice as to whether they are ill is suffering in some way. Otherwise, they would not feel moved to question their experience; happy people rarely seek advice as to whether or not their happiness is acceptable.

The reason any human feels to urge to question and connect to others is to assess the normalcy of their situation; the fact is, those who are truly content usually never even think to question the normalcy since, as we all know, "normal" is a a concept of the conditioned consciousness. A viral mental meme.