Inner knowing, subjective reality, and 'mental illness'?

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by delias

The whole question of sanity and reality is a hard one to pin down I think. I know I go through periods where I am truly afraid I am going insane. I guess if I am still able to consciously consider the possibility, then by definition I must not be. If I can still ask myself, 'Am I going insane? Am I crazy?' Then I must still have some wits about me somewhere.

There is no such thing as a completely crazy anyone except those with organic brain disease which interferes with cognitive function. Even those with severe schizophrenia are only completely delusional when they are decompensated.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

a good psychologist worth his or her salt would counter with the questions: are they hurting other people? Are they hurting themselves? Is their worldview interfering with the natural human instinct for growth and change?

That was exactly what I was about to post but you beat me to it. I think this is pretty much what would happen.

People have been asking these "Who Am I?" questions since the beginning of time. I think it's normal.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by cylon

That was exactly what I was about to post but you beat me to it. I think this is pretty much what would happen.

People have been asking these "Who Am I?" questions since the beginning of time. I think it's normal.

I agree. This is why I feel an intense call in the field, although I feel pulled toward research much moreso than therapy.

There is so much misinformation out there about mental illness. Negative labels. People are afraid of these words, for some reason. Afraid to be labeled as such and such and such. Tatata, the suchness of everything as the Buddha would say.

It's just words. Blah blah blah, nothing. The experience has the value, and no experience can ever be negative or positive. It just is. Mentally ill, so what? That is your path. The Way is almost always through that tiny point at the center of the blackest hole inside yourself; the place where "angels fear to tread."

I entered into the therapeutic experience 12 years ago for the same reasons I took peyote or psilocybin, or ecstasy, or heroin, or cocaine, or salvia at various points in my youth.

It's just as much of a trip, but with the grounding force of the developed observer consciousness you can utilize the experience for a greater understanding of mental formations, the world of conditioned consciousness, and the viral memes that infect the mind and are passed through the generations.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

The Way is almost always through that tiny point at the center of the blackest hole inside yourself; the place where "angels fear to tread."

Very well said.

[tlaskcor]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Mentally ill, so what? That is your path. The Way is almost always through that tiny point at the center of the blackest hole inside yourself; the place where "angels fear to tread."

I am going to assume you have never met any mentally ill people who harm themselves and others. To say, "That is their path," strikes me as cruel. They do need intervention. Which is why someone better be deciding what produces positive results, instead of shrugging and saying we all have the freedom to be who we are no matter where that takes us.

Lines do need to be drawn.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by tlaskcor

I am going to assume you have never met any mentally ill people who harm themselves and others.

I've BEEN a mentally ill person who harmed myself and others. Will my opinion qualify?

Originally Posted by tlaskcor

To say, "That is their path," strikes me as cruel.

It does, when you look at it only from a material perspective. I wailed a lot about how "unfair" things were and blah blah blah, too. Eventually, as I woke up to myself, I started to understand that there were perfectly good reasons for me to be mentally ill (not only biological tendency, but a lot of deeply ingrained patterns of thinking). It was, indeed, my path. From the experiences of mental illness, I gained a lot of enriching perspectives that would have been impossible otherwise. Let's just say that manure is pretty smelly and not very nice to experience directly, but it makes wonderful things grow.

And just in case you think I wasn't "very" mentally ill, I spent time in the psych ward (lockdown and everything) and a great deal of time receiving other treatment. Yes, I was really, really mentally ill, for all intents and purposes, including a diagnosis of one illness that is supposed to be lifelong and which never goes away. (Except that it did, and I've been mentally very well for many years now, and I have a psychiatrist's assessment to prove it.)

Originally Posted by tlaskcor

They do need intervention.

Very possibly. But how is intervention NOT part of the path? How is the experience of mental illness NOT a valid life experience, anyway? How is being locked up in the psych ward NOT part of my spiritual, emotional, and mental development? How is recovering from my many, many years of very obvious mental instability and unwellness NOT something that contributed to the blossoming of who I am now and who I am becoming?

Yes, it WAS my path. That path has changed (as mentioned, I'm not mentally ill any more, nor have I been for years, and yes, it appears to have been a "miraculous" healing), but I wouldn't trade the experience away. This persona-avatar-self is much enriched by these experiences.

From a much more detached/metaphysical point of view, it can be said that Consciousness is playing at an infinite number of games, all the time. One of them happens to be "mentally ill" (along with any other sort of life you can possibly imagine, and probably many you can't). Consciousness is the victim, and it is also the victimiser. Consciousness is the winner, and also the loser. Consciousness is all, including the mentally ill. Why not? Consciousness makes no judgments on good and bad and right and wrong, it simply is. The unique reality created by mental illness (or the mental illness created by one's unique reality, bit of a chicken or egg thing) is no more or less valid an experience than that of anyone else. (This is also my direct experience, though I know some people don't have this perspective, but there it is for consideration, and with the material experience of all of those things.)

[elucidate]

Whatever path we find our self on at a particular time is part of our path, wherever it leads us is the journey. That's my spontaneous profound statement for the year

I'm sure you weren't always 'mentally ill', that took up some of your life, but not all...just as it did mine. We're all mental in some ways...there is no normal, just varying degrees of wellness or unwellness. It's all just an Experience anyway...mental illness is as valid an experience as wellness is. Obviously wellness feels better though.

Originally Posted by CaterpillarWoman

I've BEEN a mentally ill person who harmed myself and others. Will my opinion qualify?


It does, when you look at it only from a material perspective. I wailed a lot about how "unfair" things were and blah blah blah, too. Eventually, as I woke up to myself, I started to understand that there were perfectly good reasons for me to be mentally ill (not only biological tendency, but a lot of deeply ingrained patterns of thinking). It was, indeed, my path. From the experiences of mental illness, I gained a lot of enriching perspectives that would have been impossible otherwise. Let's just say that manure is pretty smelly and not very nice to experience directly, but it makes wonderful things grow.

And just in case you think I wasn't "very" mentally ill, I spent time in the psych ward (lockdown and everything) and a great deal of time receiving other treatment. Yes, I was really, really mentally ill, for all intents and purposes, including a diagnosis of one illness that is supposed to be lifelong and which never goes away. (Except that it did, and I've been mentally very well for many years now, and I have a psychiatrist's assessment to prove it.)


Very possibly. But how is intervention NOT part of the path? How is the experience of mental illness NOT a valid life experience, anyway? How is being locked up in the psych ward NOT part of my spiritual, emotional, and mental development? How is recovering from my many, many years of very obvious mental instability and unwellness NOT something that contributed to the blossoming of who I am now and who I am becoming?

Yes, it WAS my path. That path has changed (as mentioned, I'm not mentally ill any more, nor have I been for years, and yes, it appears to have been a "miraculous" healing), but I wouldn't trade the experience away. This persona-avatar-self is much enriched by these experiences.

From a much more detached/metaphysical point of view, it can be said that Consciousness is playing at an infinite number of games, all the time. One of them happens to be "mentally ill" (along with any other sort of life you can possibly imagine, and probably many you can't). Consciousness is the victim, and it is also the victimiser. Consciousness is the winner, and also the loser. Consciousness is all, including the mentally ill. Why not? Consciousness makes no judgments on good and bad and right and wrong, it simply is. The unique reality created by mental illness (or the mental illness created by one's unique reality, bit of a chicken or egg thing) is no more or less valid an experience than that of anyone else. (This is also my direct experience, though I know some people don't have this perspective, but there it is for consideration, and with the material experience of all of those things.)

[themaster]

Originally Posted by delias

Hi,
I have been reading a lot about subjective reality and the idea that our world is more of a dream world as opposed to being 'out there'.

By the standards of the APA, I would be classed as having dissociative identity disorder, otherwise known as multiple personality disorder. To the majority of people, this is seen as an illness. A large part of the 'disorder' includes experiences of depersonalization, which by definition means experiencing yourself or the things around you as 'not being real'.

If we have a much broader, wiser consciousness that in a way 'dreams up' our experiences, then a lot of my childhood experiences make perfect sense. I remember experiencing, and still experience, in times of great stress and discord, myself and the things around me not being 'real'. In fact I used to complain that my waking reality seemed less real than my nighttime dreams. I would look at my hands and they would look alien to me, I would think, 'this is not ME', this is strange. If a part of my consciousness was creating something I did not like, it was as if another part of my consciousness would step in and say, 'this is not as real as you think, this is really an imaginary creation'.

It was as if the lower part of myself, my ego, or the part of me that is trapped in thinking all of this is real would struggle, and then my higher, broader consciousness would step in and say, 'think again...this is not as real as you think it is, you do not have to dream or experience this, you can go somewhere else with your dream and your experience'.

This is interesting because I have always been in a tug of war with myself about my experience. I would imagine a mother into my life, and at the same time believed I could never fully experience one in my life. Now I find myself in a situation where I have created both realities. I have one, and at the same time I do not. I imagined almost the perfect mother, and one day she manifested...but at the same time I struggle to imagine her being real in my experience, in my world fully, and so I am hitting this obstacle. This imaginary creation, if it is so, mirrors my own fears perfectly about the possibility of having a mother in my life fully. She says the very things I fear. She displays the very limitations I am afraid exist. When I imagine her saying or doing things, it seems she does them in my so called 'external' reality.

You are complicating up and mudding the issues.. all selfs are you.. to say it another way "the one is all, the all are one"

Imagine a priest in your imagination..got it? Good!

Now guess what!

The priest is you.. so's the mother and I'm also you.. and so's the monitor, the text, the speck of dust on the screen it's all you..

The only thing creating confusing here is your ego and judgment of self.. stop judging self as bad.. and all the limitations and problems will go away.. because then you will be in LOVE with yourself!

And why not be in LOVE with yourself! You are a great person after all full of unique abilities and talents and special configurations that you are only capable of.. in short love yourself! In short integrate yourself

In short.. learn to appreciate everything that is you! Even me!

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by delias

Hi,
I have been reading a lot about subjective reality and the idea that our world is more of a dream world as opposed to being 'out there'.

By the standards of the APA, I would be classed as having dissociative identity disorder, otherwise known as multiple personality disorder. To the majority of people, this is seen as an illness. A large part of the 'disorder' includes experiences of depersonalization, which by definition means experiencing yourself or the things around you as 'not being real'.

If we have a much broader, wiser consciousness that in a way 'dreams up' our experiences, then a lot of my childhood experiences make perfect sense. I remember experiencing, and still experience, in times of great stress and discord, myself and the things around me not being 'real'. In fact I used to complain that my waking reality seemed less real than my nighttime dreams. I would look at my hands and they would look alien to me, I would think, 'this is not ME', this is strange. If a part of my consciousness was creating something I did not like, it was as if another part of my consciousness would step in and say, 'this is not as real as you think, this is really an imaginary creation'.

It was as if the lower part of myself, my ego, or the part of me that is trapped in thinking all of this is real would struggle, and then my higher, broader consciousness would step in and say, 'think again...this is not as real as you think it is, you do not have to dream or experience this, you can go somewhere else with your dream and your experience'.

This is interesting because I have always been in a tug of war with myself about my experience. I would imagine a mother into my life, and at the same time believed I could never fully experience one in my life. Now I find myself in a situation where I have created both realities. I have one, and at the same time I do not. I imagined almost the perfect mother, and one day she manifested...but at the same time I struggle to imagine her being real in my experience, in my world fully, and so I am hitting this obstacle. This imaginary creation, if it is so, mirrors my own fears perfectly about the possibility of having a mother in my life fully. She says the very things I fear. She displays the very limitations I am afraid exist. When I imagine her saying or doing things, it seems she does them in my so called 'external' reality.

I don't see any comparison at all between MPD and applying SR to your life.

Having MPD is not a choice. Applying SR is a conscious choice. That is all that even needs to be said.

First of all, a criterion for depersonalization is that the person feels s/he has no control over his/her body. Even if SR is not a conscious choice, it is not the same as having a personality take over your body when you have no way to control it.

Most of all, however, the personalities in MPD develop as a result of extreme trauma in a person's life that were so painful, the sufferer cannot consciously deal with what s/he experienced. The personalities become spliced elements of the whole of the sufferer's true personality.

This has no relation to SR. The state of mind of a person suffering from MPD and of one applying SR are dramatically far apart.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

The state of mind of a person suffering from MPD and of one applying SR are dramatically far apart.

Man that is going to upset a lot of smug skeptics.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

This has no relation to SR. The state of mind of a person suffering from MPD and of one applying SR are dramatically far apart.

Agreed.

Chronic dissociation causes a kind of fracturing of perception. It prevents you from being able to "put two and two together", because if you did do that, it would be too horrible to live with. So you generate different compartments in your mind, and these compartments sometimes take on the role of alter egos. Depending on the severity of the dissociation, there may be full on amnesia between the alter egos, or there may be threads of memory that are allowed to continue, or there may be more or less internal communication.

SR is much more akin to the experience of "oneness" or "unity", in seeing that you are part of the All and the All is within and without you. It's pretty much the exact opposite of chronic dissociation because that experience is not just separation of "self" from the All, but separation WITHIN the "self" from the All.

Very, very different experiences, to say the least. So, in other words, I agree.

I will add that there is a disorder known as Solipsism Syndrome which is sort of like SR, but it's entirely ego-based (whereas SR is based in Consciousness). Solipsism syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, and dissociation is only a problem if it's a problem. Dissociation is a completely normal process, and people do it constantly. You'd be unable to read or learn a lot of things if you couldn't dissociate and put the "rest of the world" at bay. It's kind of a very specialised type of focus. It's only a problem when and if it becomes so chronic that it impairs functioning. It's not even actually a mental illness in the biological sense of the word, but rather a deeply conditioned pattern of thought and identity.

[delias]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

I don't see any comparison at all between MPD and applying SR to your life.

Having MPD is not a choice. Applying SR is a conscious choice. That is all that even needs to be said.

This has no relation to SR. The state of mind of a person suffering from MPD and of one applying SR are dramatically far apart.

Hmmm...maybe I was describing derealization more so than depersonalization---but my understanding of derealization is the things outside of you, like the room, the chairs, etc., appear to have an unrealistic quality, whereas with depersonalization there are things about 'you' that have an unrealistic quality, such as looking at your own hands and realising they aren't really 'you', they are a part of this strange 'body-vehicle-thing' you are in.

I do want to add a few points as well. Not all MPD sufferers necessarily have the same split you are describing as so fixed and separate. In fact a lot of them have what is called co-consciousness, where different personality parts can consciously share memories, experiences, knowledge, etc. So I would add that for me, I am not the only part of my so-called fractured personality who is able to explore and question subjective reality. So I'm not sure I agree with you that the state of mind of someone suffering from MPD and the state of mind of someone exploring/applying SR in their life are dramatically far apart, although I might be able to understand why you would see it that way.