I found an objective truth within subjective reality...

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

Is it objectively true? How do you know? (whether yes or no.) Can you know that for sure?

Ok, well that thought drives me bonkers.

That I *can't* know....or that I *can* know. Or that saying I can't know or I can know...and neither one of them can be true objectively.

I just want *something* that I could rely on objectively, and the idea that there is nothing (or that there could be something) drives me nuts. lol

[James81]

It's something I've noticed that happens when I'm debating something.

That is, while I'm debating my point of view, and as I type it or speak it, I recognize all the things that I am saying and how they can be debated.

Sometimes I find myself in the middle of a debate/arguement/whatever and I start replying and by the time I'm done I've already internally disproved my own point of view, and then I don't even hit submit. I just delete it and forget about it. LOL

[James81]

And the "truth" comes out...or rather, I just realized what I'm resisting that seems pretty prevalent in my life right now...

I just want to be able to have an opinion on something. That is, my opinions change so much simply because I realize the points from either side of any real debate...and I recognize that my own opinion is just a choice that I'm creating, something I'm choosing to serve some sort of purpose, and isn't any real measure of the "truth."

But it seems like people respect those who have firm opinions and don't waver back and forth. But I can *see* that no real opinion IS true, so for me to assert anything and then stick with it would be going against what I feel is being "authentic."

I just want to "forget" that...that is, forget that I know that no opinion is really truth, so that I can pick a damn side and make some progress in my life.

[James81]

I also see the irony of my av now.

[Angela]

Well, I love you. I know you can't really be sure even of that, but I know for sure, as much as I can know. Take it from me.

I had a thread here a few years ago, in which I was looking for something that is Ultimate Truth -- something that is objectively true. I got lots of suggestions of things people believed were The Truth, but nothing that occurred like Ultimate Truth for me. A couple of people went very FIB when I wouldn't acknowledge and agree that what they believed was The Truth.

I still haven't found a The Truth, but I've come to realize that it works better for me in getting the results I want being free to move among perspectives.

There are quite a few things that I rely on as powerful tendencies, but as soon as I start believing any of them are The Truth, something'll happen that will let me know it doesn't work as well for me in getting desired results. It makes me laugh every time.

It is a much different way to live my life than back when I was younger and I knew everything. And interestingly, for some people, I occur as a "know-it-all." That makes me laugh, too.

[Angela]

James, Byron Katie has a wonderful book called, "A Thousand Names for Joy" that I think you might find interesting. There are parts of it I found pretty confronting -- and really thought-provoking.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

James, Byron Katie has a wonderful book called, "A Thousand Names for Joy" that I think you might find interesting. There are parts of it I found pretty confronting -- and really thought-provoking.

This must be some kind of record...upon reading your recommendation to the time of this post, I've been to amazon, bought it for my iPod, and have come back to write this post.

Next time I open up the Kindle app, it'll be there.

[Angela]

That is one of my all-time favorite subjective creations: the ability to desire a book and then within seconds, download it from the "ethernet."

Ohhhh, tears in my eyes, I'm laughing out loud.... The "ethernet"!!! That just cracks me up.

[James81]

Now, if we could just instantly download the knowledge of any book right into our brains. I have so many books in queue that I don't know if I'll ever read them. Having the iPod helps, though, because I can read snippets in times when I'd usually be doing nothing.

[Angela]

Like in The Matrix? That would be fun, wouldn't it? I really enjoy the action of reading, though -- it's very pleasurable for me.

[James81]

Yeah, I love to read too. But I enjoy fiction more than nonfiction.

But I also enjoy reading personal development stuff.

I just have so many books I wanna read, that it's hard to choose just one.

[shinyjourney]

All you said is very interesting for me!

James, something you said talked to me (i hope i understood it well):

Originally Posted by James81

I actually DO believe in SR to a degree, but I don't think it's to the extreme that NOTHING is objective, which I think is a viewpoint that I've seen around here a time or two.

It talks to me because when i try to make it logical for me, SR exists in a certain degree, like i influence my life, my thoughts influence what i get in my life, opportunities, events, people, in a good or a bad way.

But when it comes to all the things that have been created like our bodies, plants, earth, water... it becomes hard to believe for me that all of this has been created by my mind and my thoughts, so for me it makes sense that all of this takes place in an objective reality, like gravity for example.

What do you think?

Virginie

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

James, Byron Katie has a wonderful book called, "A Thousand Names for Joy"

This is exactly what I needed to read right now. Thank you.

I got to read the forward, intro, and the first chapter at lunch, and I can already tell it's going to be insightful. It's already insightful, and very specific to what I mentioned here this morning.

And, I've probably mentioned this here at some point, but a couple years ago I was reading the Tao daily. I read through it three or four times before I stopped. So it's nice to see a book that expands on it line by line like this.

Also, I noticed a thought that I was believing that wasn't true: that Byron Katie's stuff is more geared towards women, so I was kind of writing her off in that manner. Funny little thoughts. I'll probably read more by her after this.

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

All you said is very interesting for me!

James, something you said talked to me (i hope i understood it well):




It talks to me because when i try to make it logical for me, SR exists in a certain degree, like i influence my life, my thoughts influence what i get in my life, opportunities, events, people, in a good or a bad way.

But when it comes to all the things that have been created like our bodies, plants, earth, water... it becomes hard to believe for me that all of this has been created by my mind and my thoughts, so for me it makes sense that all of this takes place in an objective reality, like gravity for example.

What do you think?

Virginie

Also funnily enough, I think the answer to your question resides in something I've already read in that book suggestion: that there is nothing above, beneath, or behind our reality. There's no mystery or secret to reality. The our reality is simply what is in front of us. And even though there might be more to it than that (I'm adding my own thoughts here), all that really matters is what is in front of us...and the way things are.

And as soon as we stop believing our thoughts about reality, we find peace and joy.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

It talks to me because when i try to make it logical for me, SR exists in a certain degree, like i influence my life, my thoughts influence what i get in my life, opportunities, events, people, in a good or a bad way.

But when it comes to all the things that have been created like our bodies, plants, earth, water... it becomes hard to believe for me that all of this has been created by my mind and my thoughts, so for me it makes sense that all of this takes place in an objective reality, like gravity for example.

Because 'your mind' as you know it did not create it all.

You are a part of, or connected to (if that makes more sense) a larger consciousness that emcompasses everything.

What I don't understand is how people believe that their thoughts influence what they get in their life, but only to a certain extent.

If you do not believe that you are creating and experiencing your reality simultaneously, then what mechanism do you believe is responsible for drawing these things into your life? I'd like to understand that viewpoint.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

Also, I noticed a thought that I was believing that wasn't true: that Byron Katie's stuff is more geared towards women, so I was kind of writing her off in that manner. Funny little thoughts. I'll probably read more by her after this.

Yeah, I was believing some beliefs about her for a long while, too. It took me quite awhile after hearing of her to get around to actually reading her stuff, because I believed my own thoughts about how she is frou frou and whooo whooo and pink tutu.

Turns out, she's kind of badass.

[shinyjourney]

Originally Posted by James81

Also funnily enough, I think the answer to your question resides in something I've already read in that book suggestion: that there is nothing above, beneath, or behind our reality. There's no mystery or secret to reality. The our reality is simply what is in front of us. And even though there might be more to it than that (I'm adding my own thoughts here), all that really matters is what is in front of us...and the way things are.

And as soon as we stop believing our thoughts about reality, we find peace and joy.

I don't really understand what you want to explain to me, do you mean that the fact that i am wondering what is subjective and objective make me think thoughts that make me in a wrong path for joy and peace?

Originally Posted by gigij

What I don't understand is how people believe that their thoughts influence what they get in their life, but only to a certain extent.

If you do not believe that you are creating and experiencing your reality simultaneously, then what mechanism do you believe is responsible for drawing these things into your life? I'd like to understand that viewpoint.

It is because for you, you see it black or white. For me, (i'm new at it, so maybe one day it'll become white or black) i create my reality by the events, the things etc i bring into my life, but it's too big for me to think that i created all those things around me like people have 2 arms, a brain, there is water to drink and to make us live and we need to eat to live.... I think i didn't create it, but that is my "matrice" where i can live my reality.

How do you see it, i'm interested to know your viewpoint.


Virginie

[gigij]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

It is because for you, you see it black or white. For me, (i'm new at it, so maybe one day it'll become white or black) i create my reality by the events, the things etc i bring into my life, but it's too big for me to think that i created all those things around me like people have 2 arms, a brain, there is water to drink and to make us live and we need to eat to live.... I think i didn't create it, but that is my "matrice" where i can live my reality.

How do you see it, i'm interested to know your viewpoint.

Oh I'm at work and it would take an essay to get into everything. I'll try to get some time to put it all together later - if that's OK. My beliefs centre around consciousness being the force behind creation, an innate connection between all things, the akashic field, quantum physics, consensus reality. Not really what I would call black and white.


But my question to you is by what mechanism do you believe that you manifest things into your life?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

I don't really understand what you want to explain to me, do you mean that the fact that i am wondering what is subjective and objective make me think thoughts that make me in a wrong path for joy and peace?

Are you in a state of joy and peace when you think your thoughts about what is subjective and objective? If you are, then your thoughts are working well. If you are not, then you might want to try something else.

Peace and joy and any other state are not mysterious, elusive states that you can only have Someday, if you think hard enough or work hard enough. You can have them right now, if you want 'em.

Wanna see?

Close your eyes and go back to a time when you felt really peaceful or joyful, or both. See what you see, hear what you hear, feel what you feel. Invite those good feelings to really be present - throw them a welcome party. Turn up all the dials on clarity, color, intensity, size -- make those feelings really big and full in your body. Notice what part of your body feels the most joy or peace, and allow that feeling to spread out throughout your entire body, and maybe even beyond the boundaries of your skin. Really feel it and enjoy it.

* * * * *
Did you do it? What happened?

[shinyjourney]

Originally Posted by gigij

Oh I'm at work and it would take an essay to get into everything. I'll try to get some time to put it all together later - if that's OK. My beliefs centre around consciousness being the force behind creation, an innate connection between all things, the akashic field, quantum physics, consensus reality. Not really what I would call black and white.


But my question to you is by what mechanism do you believe that you manifest things into your life?

Yes, i'm very interested to know your viewpoint.

You know, i'm learning every day and thankfully my way of thinking go to something that give me peace. But to be really honest with you, i don't know how it could work. I don't find a logical explanation and this is why i come to speak here. To try to understand better. But why i believe it because i see it, i experience it in my reality. When i think bad thought, i see the world around me very dark, i feel bad and experience more of bad things and my thoughts can't stop to think bad things, and this is how i had a depression two years ago. And now when i feel bad, i change my thought and think about something great and instantaneously, my vision of the world around me is lighter, more love around me...

So this is my experience that makes me believe in LOA and SR in a certain point. But now, i have to improve my understanding and faith on it to be able to attract things i want in my life. I know it works for feelings so, why not for things...

Originally Posted by angela

Are you in a state of joy and peace when you think your thoughts about what is subjective and objective? If you are, then your thoughts are working well. If you are not, then you might want to try something else.

Peace and joy and any other state are not mysterious, elusive states that you can only have Someday, if you think hard enough or work hard enough. You can have them right now, if you want 'em.

Wanna see?

Close your eyes and go back to a time when you felt really peaceful or joyful, or both. See what you see, hear what you hear, feel what you feel. Invite those good feelings to really be present - throw them a welcome party. Turn up all the dials on clarity, color, intensity, size -- make those feelings really big and full in your body. Notice what part of your body feels the most joy or peace, and allow that feeling to spread out throughout your entire body, and maybe even beyond the boundaries of your skin. Really feel it and enjoy it.

* * * * *
Did you do it? What happened?

I can't say i feel really joy when i think about SR or OR but more questions and a good feeling, like i know answers are here.


And yes, i tried to do it, and i have to say that i feel really great. But lately, i try to do this every day, and i feel so great because i experience it really. Yesterday, i imagined myself on beach playing in water and then got a tan on the sand, and i felt the sun on my skin! I was amazed about it, and could say, thank you! because i experience what i want to, when i want to. Now i want to experience it in the physical world.

Virginie

[James81]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

I don't really understand what you want to explain to me, do you mean that the fact that i am wondering what is subjective and objective make me think thoughts that make me in a wrong path for joy and peace?

What I am saying is that the natural state of our thoughts and emotions is in a constant state of "flux" (constantly changing in incremental moments) unless acted on by an outside force (beliefs, values, and decisions we make).

So, our thoughts and emotions are essentially true in the moment that we express them, but, by the time we express them, they have already changed. Our expressions of emotions and thoughts, then, are about past emotions and thoughts (even if the past is the increment right before we expressed it). There's a bit of a "time lag" between our experience and our expression of our experience.

However, some thoughts and emotions linger on autopilot because we've made decisions and created beliefs and values to which to set them. So a perpetual thought or emotion is a big indicator that we've made some sort of finite decision about the way things should be or the way things are.

So, when we find something that creates conflict, examining the nature of our beliefs, values, and decisions is one way to release those beliefs, values, and decisions because once brought to conscious thought, we then have an opportunity to re-decide something else or to undecide that which is niggling at us underneath.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

And yes, i tried to do it, and i have to say that i feel really great. But lately, i try to do this every day, and i feel so great because i experience it really. Yesterday, i imagined myself on beach playing in water and then got a tan on the sand, and i felt the sun on my skin! I was amazed about it, and could say, thank you! because i experience what i want to, when i want to. Now i want to experience it in the physical world.

What?!? You weren't in the physical world when you did this exercise, when you generated good feelings right here and now?! Wow! Where were you instead?

Ahhh, I love the beach and tan and sand and sun feelings. I'm doing them right now (here, in the physical world). Thank you!

[shinyjourney]

Originally Posted by Angela

What?!? You weren't in the physical world when you did this exercise, when you generated good feelings right here and now?! Wow! Where were you instead?

Ahhh, I love the beach and tan and sand and sun feelings. I'm doing them right now (here, in the physical world). Thank you!

Ok, i get what you mean! I was in the physical world when i experienced it, i just did not see it with my eyes but with my eyes. Would it be more accurate?

[shinyjourney]

Originally Posted by James81

What I am saying is that the natural state of our thoughts and emotions is in a constant state of "flux" (constantly changing in incremental moments) unless acted on by an outside force (beliefs, values, and decisions we make).

So, our thoughts and emotions are essentially true in the moment that we express them, but, by the time we express them, they have already changed. Our expressions of emotions and thoughts, then, are about past emotions and thoughts (even if the past is the increment right before we expressed it). There's a bit of a "time lag" between our experience and our expression of our experience.

However, some thoughts and emotions linger on autopilot because we've made decisions and created beliefs and values to which to set them. So a perpetual thought or emotion is a big indicator that we've made some sort of finite decision about the way things should be or the way things are.

So, when we find something that creates conflict, examining the nature of our beliefs, values, and decisions is one way to release those beliefs, values, and decisions because once brought to conscious thought, we then have an opportunity to re-decide something else or to undecide that which is niggling at us underneath.

Okay i get it, i understand now and totally agree with you. I experience it lately and i can see how thoughts can be guide to feel good all the time. I can't control what thought i have at the moment, but i can decide to continue to think about it or change it to something better.

Virginie

[James81]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

Okay i get it, i understand now and totally agree with you. I experience it lately and i can see how thoughts can be guide to feel good all the time. I can't control what thought i have at the moment, but i can decide to continue to think about it or change it to something better.

Virginie

I think you could even make a decision that a certain thought that feels good IS reality and it could become autopilot for you.

I think this is kinda what happens with NLP and some of the other techniques that float around here.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

I think you could even make a decision that a certain thought that feels good IS reality and it could become autopilot for you.

Exactly. Some people believe that a feeling is only *real* if some external circumstance occurs that validates it as real -- otherwise, they consider that feeling to be fake, delusional, not real.

[shinyjourney]

Originally Posted by James81

I think you could even make a decision that a certain thought that feels good IS reality and it could become autopilot for you.

I think this is kinda what happens with NLP and some of the other techniques that float around here.

Yes, you're totally right, and this what i experience lately too, i find myself very often happy whereas a year ago it was the opposite!

So, it works and even if when i don't think of it consciously! I like auto pilot!