I found an objective truth within subjective reality...

[catalyst]

Originally Posted by cylon

No one asked you to believe anything. Am I correct in thinking that the concept of SR is somehow threatening to you? You seem to really have your act together, so why on earth are you on law of attraction board of all places, taking pot shots at our silly beliefs? Aren't you past the debating with the village idiots phase of your life?

You're correct that I have a dissenting view Is this forum only for those who believe in SR?

I believe that intentions create thoughts, and thoughts lead to action. This is based on rational reasoning, not SR, or some demon who grants me wishes. I am just putting out an argument based on logic, but it appears logic is not compatible with this 'SR model', hence the personal attacks.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by catalyst

You're correct that I have a dissenting view Is this forum only for those who believe in SR?

I really was just asking, if you already have it all figured out, what are you doing here?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by catalyst

I am just putting out an argument based on logic

Nah. Your points are not logical.

Or rather they are logical only within a very narrow framework, beyond which you dare not look.

My comment above relates to your posts in general (those that I have seen), not particularly to your posts in this thread.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by catalyst

This is based on rational reasoning, not SR, or some demon who grants me wishes. I am just putting out an argument based on logic, but it appears logic is not compatible with this 'SR model', hence the personal attacks.

Personal attacks?

Wow, for a moment, I thought that the words in your post might be insinuating something about Cylon being an irrational, illogical demon-worshipper (as opposed to a mundane village idiot).

But I guess I might be too sensitive.

[cylon]

If demons granted wishes I would totally be hesitant of it. I like the wishes but if it gets to the point that I have to ask a demon for help, then I've lost sight of my values.

Not to say that people who worship demons are wrong, that's just not the way I'd go.

[catalyst]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Personal attacks?

Wow, for a moment, I thought that the words in your post might be insinuating something about Cylon being an irrational, illogical demon-worshipper (as opposed to a mundane village idiot).

But I guess I might be too sensitive.

I take no offense to that, and I have no apologies. Interpret it as you will.

I have no need to point out the charlatans here. They know themselves.

[sonde]

Originally Posted by cylon

Yes and no. It's like when it's late at night and you're laying in bed reading a good book. You might start drifting off to sleep but you want to keep reading so you force yourself to wake up, then you drift off, etc.

SR is like that. Sometimes you're wide awake, and you can SEE it. It's not even a belief, you feel it, you see it in your everyday life. It's very real, and it feels pretty good most of the time.

Then, you drift back to sleep. Ego takes over. Ego puts the blinders on, and instead of just experiencing it, now you're THINKING about it, which just kills it. You can't think about SR because thinking is of the ego and ego does not for a second believe that is is "not separate" from everyone else.

When you are experiencing SR (or awareness, don't get lost in the SR label) you just know, I am you, you are me, we are all one. And really weird, trippy things happen that confirm it for you, which just makes you believe it even more, which makes more weird, cool things happen.

When you are experiencing ego, the opposite happens. You start hearing yourself think thoughts like "you are crazy. This world is real, I'm real, he's real, she's real, we all have our own thoughts, and are independent from each other. You know, the real world?"

And then you start getting down, until you have an experience that proves to you again we are all one. Then you feel better again. Each time this happens, your awareness that we are all one stays around longer. It's like the ego doesn't really know what to do, so it does nothing, waiting for the time it can strike back and make you think we're all separate again. But the longer the interval, the stronger your EXPERIENCE of awareness becomes, and the less you listen to ego.

When I first read about SR it didn't make sense to me, but I wanted to understand it. Now I'm getting there. If I completely, 100% understood it, I would probably disappear into the ether because there would officially be no more separation (and therefore no more world), but I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.

So I just enjoy the process of waking up.

Thank you for this and other wonderful posts you are making here Cylon. I admire your energy

It is becoming clearer here that consciousness (awareness) does not really come and go, what comes and goes is the unconscious (or self conscious) self-image.

This does not mean that a conscious self-image cannot come and go, or that consciousness consciously identifies as or with an image/view/viewpoint from time to time.

The difference being whether identification happens consciously or unconsciously.

IOW, thinking does not end consciousness; it is rather the unconscious identification with forms of thinking that is the beginning of periods of unconsciousness.

This is as clear as I can be at this moment

[Angela]

Originally Posted by catalyst

I have no need to point out the charlatans here. They know themselves.

ahhh, ya big tease!

[cylon]

Originally Posted by catalyst

I have no need to point out the charlatans here. They know themselves.

YouTube - Charlatans UK - The Only One I Know

I love the charlatans.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

Yes, maybe it doesn't make sense, but it's hard to believe that anything but me has a consciousness.

It's like i would take power from people whereas i know they think by themselves and make their own theories about it too.

Shiny, take a deep breath Relax a little.

I think there's something you're not quite getting -- the "me" you keep referring to, it's clear to me, is the "me" that has 2 legs hands etc. And you don't "have a consciousness", you are Consciousness. Please try to take on the dream analogy, or whichever one works for you. If you meditate, this becomes very clear. When you're in a state of complete meditative awareness, it is clear that you are pure awareness, not the person that is sitting down with their legs crossed. When you take on SR lenS, you just tend to access that state a lot more.

And you don't take the power from "the people", cuz "the people" is You!

[cylon]

Originally Posted by sonde

Thank you for this and other wonderful posts you are making here Cylon. I admire your energy

Thanks!

Originally Posted by sonde

IOW, thinking does not end consciousness; it is rather the unconscious identification with forms of thinking that is the beginning of periods of unconsciousness.

This is as clear as I can be at this moment

Yeah this is what I believe too. Once we label we separate and then we are unconscious.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by catalyst

I have no need to point out the charlatans here. They know themselves.

Oh, charlatans.

Deceitful people who trick you so as to be able to get ..... what? Your money? Via their forum posts?

Ahhh, the lack of logic.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Angela

ahhh, ya big tease!

Gasp .... You called him a big tease. That's ... that's ... that's a PERSONAL ATTACK! It's not allowed!!

You irrational illogical charlatan demon-worshipper from a village of idiots.

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by James81

If subjective reality suggests that this life is merely a dream or a series of dreams within dreams, then there is no level above this dream in which we don't need sleep or else this dream cannot exist.

The only way a reality in which sleep is not necessary or possible would be one in which we dream.

Thoughts? What are the implications of this realization?

I had to think (or rather, not think) about this one, James, and then realized something.

This realization of yours would seem to lead to the conclusion of reincarnation, would it not?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

You irrational illogical charlatan demon-worshipper from a village of idiots.

Hey, I come from a city, not a village.

[st33med]

Originally Posted by Angela

Hey, I come from a city, not a village.

Whatever, city-slicker...

[Acting Like Godot]

Truly, I find his posts so nonsensical. Whether you believe in SR or not, his reasoning is just not the way to go. Look at this glorious example:

Originally Posted by catalyst

Forget these 'SR Models'. They are just models built on 'non-sense' - you have to abandon all reason to believe these. We use our ability to 'reason' to survive, and we base this on some axioms of truth. Even the people preaching SR as if it were some newfound religion use this same 'reasoning' based on objective truths daily. You eat, sleep, and ♥♥♥♥♥ don't you?

Once you figure out a way to live without having to do these, then I'll become a believer.

His post is built around two assumptions:

(1) eating, sleeping and sh*tting depend on the person's reasoning; and

(2) living without eating, sleeping and sh*tting would prove SR.

I just can't accept it. BOTH his assumptions are pure nonsense. Among other things, unreasonable people are able to eat, sleep and ♥♥♥♥♥ as well as reasonable people.

[shinyjourney]

Originally Posted by cylon

Isn't that the world you are living in right now? You already created that reality. Success!

Doesn't mean that's the way things actually ARE... but as long as you want to perceive it that way, you will get evidence to support that. Through SR your view of reality is bound to appear real, even if that reality means SR isn't real.

But my prediction is that at some point you are going to have an experience where you feel this unity. It's not something you can explain, but once you feel it, things will get weird. And you can't "unlearn" that experience.

Yes, thank you, you're right, i forgot that if i want to perceive something in a way, or if i believe something, then i will see this thing in my "reality".

That's logical to me now. And, yes, i hope i'll be able to feel what you talk about!

Originally Posted by midasgirl

Shiny, take a deep breath Relax a little.

I think there's something you're not quite getting -- the "me" you keep referring to, it's clear to me, is the "me" that has 2 legs hands etc. And you don't "have a consciousness", you are Consciousness. Please try to take on the dream analogy, or whichever one works for you. If you meditate, this becomes very clear. When you're in a state of complete meditative awareness, it is clear that you are pure awareness, not the person that is sitting down with their legs crossed. When you take on SR lenS, you just tend to access that state a lot more.

And you don't take the power from "the people", cuz "the people" is You!

Thank you midas girl, you're right i try to be too logical and think within the physical world, so it cannot be good matches with awareness...

Thanks

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by acting like godot

gasp .... You called him a big tease. That's ... That's ... That's a personal attack! It's not allowed!!

You irrational illogical charlatan demon-worshipper from a village of idiots.

ralmao

[James81]

I also just had a thought...

Isn't the Law of Attraction a very objective truth that would exist within SR?

I'm constantly hearing people say, "The Law of Attraction is always working, whether you believe in it or not."

Isn't that a pretty objective statement? I mean, if in my SR I decide that the LoA is utter ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, then shouldn't that be subjectively true for me?

[Angela]

James, I'm pretty sure you'll get plenty of answers to that. May I ask: what is your interest in finding an objective truth within subjective reality about? For instance, are you interested in using SR, but only if you aren't able to prove it wrong? Are you just *playing* with the idea, and if so, do you know consciously for what purpose?

(I ask because I've heard you say you don't believe in SR (or something like that) and yet you do seem interested in using the perspective.)

[gigij]

Originally Posted by James81

Isn't that a pretty objective statement? I mean, if in my SR I decide that the LoA is utter ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, then shouldn't that be subjectively true for me?

If that is what you decide, then it is true for you.

And you will find all the evidence you need to support that truth.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

James, I'm pretty sure you'll get plenty of answers to that. May I ask: what is your interest in finding an objective truth within subjective reality about? For instance, are you interested in using SR, but only if you aren't able to prove it wrong? Are you just *playing* with the idea, and if so, do you know consciously for what purpose?

(I ask because I've heard you say you don't believe in SR (or something like that) and yet you do seem interested in using the perspective.)

I think I'm just trying to understand the nature of SR.

I actually DO believe in SR to a degree, but I don't think it's to the extreme that NOTHING is objective, which I think is a viewpoint that I've seen around here a time or two.

Originally Posted by gigij

If that is what you decide, then it is true for you.

And you will find all the evidence you need to support that truth.

And I think this post helped clarify the idea of SR for me....that is, for whatever I choose to believe, I will find all the evidence I need for it to be true....and to add to that....and I will ignore any evidence to the contrary (the objective stuff).

[James81]

Or perhaps a better way of stating it is....

Just because I truly *can't* know what is objectively true (because I am one person with a very limited perspective of reality), does not mean that there are NOT objective truths. That is, I think I'm realizing that the universe doesn't revolve around me and/or does not exist to serve me. But rather, I exist to serve me and I can choose subjective means to meet those needs/wants that I have, but just because I believe in something subjectively to meet those needs, does not mean that reality itself is subjective. It just means that *my* reality is subjective to the ends through which I want to experience it.

But if you break off, and pull back, there IS an objective reality...that none of us can every truly understand.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by James81

I think I'm just trying to understand the nature of SR.

I actually DO believe in SR to a degree, but I don't think it's to the extreme that NOTHING is objective, which I think is a viewpoint that I've seen around here a time or two.

So which part of reality is subjective, and which part is objective? Or that is what you are still trying to determine?

Originally Posted by James81

And I think this post helped clarify the idea of SR for me....that is, for whatever I choose to believe, I will find all the evidence I need for it to be true....and to add to that....and I will ignore any evidence to the contrary (the objective stuff).

And don't know if ignore is the right word. To me there just is no convincing evidence to the contrary. That isn't really the same as ignoring it.

[James81]

Originally Posted by gigij

So which part of reality is subjective, and which part is objective? Or that is what you are still trying to determine?

I think the parts that I say are objective represent internal resistance within me to the notion that I can never know what is objective. It's also related to the resistance I have when someone tells me that something is true. Or, rather, the resistance that exists when someone says "hey I believe in SR, and so should you." Oh yeah? Why should I take your highly objective statement "so should you" (or in this case, it's an implication I think) and believe it too? What if I want to subjectively believe it's not true?

That kind of thing. So, yes, I do see where there's resistance there.

But I also see that just because I can't know something, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or it isn't true or that it disappears unless I cast focus on it. To me, that seems delusional.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

the notion that I can never know what is objective.

Can you ever know what is objectively true? How?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

Can you ever know what is objectively true? How?

Haha, you're right. The statement "I can never know what is objectively true" is in and of itself an objective statement.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by James81

"hey I believe in SR, and so should you." Oh yeah? Why should I take your highly objective statement "so should you" (or in this case, it's an implication I think) and believe it too? What if I want to subjectively believe it's not true?

Well for the record I never said that you should believe it too - or intended to imply that.

Just giving my beliefs about it in case you or anyone else is interested.

I have a deep belief, and a deep understanding of how it all works (for me). But I do find it difficult to articulate - so I just try to give my take the best I can.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

Haha, you're right. The statement "I can never know what is objectively true" is in and of itself an objective statement.

Is it objectively true? How do you know? (whether yes or no.) Can you know that for sure?