I found an objective truth within subjective reality...

[JSB]

Originally Posted by aleph null

IMO, the subject of reality goes back thousands of years to plato and the shadows on the wall.
Reality exists, but we can never know it. Not while we're alive anyway.
All we can see are pieces of the map.

Very well said

[shinyjourney]

James, i dopn't understand how a belief can be objective as it is a belief. A belief is owned by a person and then can only be subjective no?

Cylon, if we say that our reality is subjectibve and then that we are the only consciousness here, how do you think all this world as been built? Does it mean that as a child, my thoughts created streets, houses, countries, people, human (2 arms, 2eyes...). What is your opinion about that?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by James81

But I'm starting to see that even in a purely subjective frame, there's still objective beliefs about it.

Well, that makes no sense to me in an SR model, because like I've explained, all experience is subjective. But yeah they are just labels, the labels and the intellectual games aren't what matter, but the direct experience. Maybe someday you'll want to try it out yourself.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

Cylon, if we say that our reality is subjective and then that we are the only consciousness here, how do you think all this world as been built? Does it mean that as a child, my thoughts created streets, houses, countries, people, human (2 arms, 2eyes...). What is your opinion about that?

No. What you are describing is solipsism.

You don't create anything because you don't exist. If there is SR, and therefore, no separation in this universe (all one awareness) then you as an individual are just as illusory as the streets and houses and people. Which means, something must have created you.

But if something created you, then how do you create anything at all? By noticing when you do. You did not CONSCIOUSLY, with your brain (which doesn't exist) create anything. Yet, you can tell you are creating your reality at times by how your thoughts tend to reflect back to you in reality.

The question then is, if I am not real, but I can still tell I'm creating my reality, then what is going on?

[James81]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

James, i dopn't understand how a belief can be objective as it is a belief. A belief is owned by a person and then can only be subjective no?

Within subjective reality, your beliefs are objective because there is nothing that is not you, and, if nothing is "not you," then your beliefs are all there is. One part of you (the part that is cylon, for instance) believes and adapts to SR, then that part of you represents a small part of the whole.

The way I see it, SR is viewed as a lense. Something you try on, and you use to view the world. It's like each individual aspect of the dreamer (for example: James, cylon, Steve, etc.) are all parts of the dreamer, and, thus, are all parts of a whole. Thus cylon is James is Steve.

The analogy used, then, is that of your body. For example, cylon might represent the hand, I might represent the elbow, Steve might represent the knee. So, if I were to wear a glove on my hand (i.e. cylon is to use SR as a lense), then I don't say "my hand is wearing a glove." I would typically say "*I* am wearing a glove." Because my hand is a part of me.

So if cylon were to take on a subjective belief, then essentially that believe represents a part of the whole, but that belief has affects ON the whole.

Thus, a belief can be both subjective and objective at the same time, depending on the perspective.

Originally Posted by cylon

all experience is subjective

And that is a very objective way of stating it.

[Angela]

It's funny, James, that your avatar is now a representation of a classic subjective reality movie character!

A character who deliberately manipulates his reality to get a desired result.

[Concolitanos]

Originally Posted by Lionman

You just made me think of something.

When you go to sleep and dream, the dream reality is seen as being a higher astral reality where things manifest easier. Like how in a lucid dream you can fly etc.

So if this reality is a dream, then the sleeper should be in a lower reality where things are even harder/slower to manifest than this physical one!

Funny, just had the thought that this ties in with the root chakra in Hinduism and how they say it relates to a sleeping consciousness within matter. The root corresponds to the lowest form of consciousness.

I've had a similar insight. It's hard to describe because it's sort of a mish-mash of ideas that coalesced into an interesting one. If all things are one and there's a gradient of awareness (plants to animals to humans) then maybe all things are conscious to some extent. So, the universe as a whole is conscious but largely asleep and what we see around us is a dream as the universe unconsciously folds into various shapes and characters.

However, since we have self-awareness and we can shape what goes on around us, it's like reality is a lucid dream or perhaps more accurately, we are flickers of lucidity in the dream of the universe. The more we strive to become aware, the more we act as an urge within the universe to awaken... and maybe that's what life is, an urge within the mind of the universe to wake up.

Sorry, no hellish imagery

[shinyjourney]

Originally Posted by James81

Within subjective reality, your beliefs are objective because there is nothing that is not you, and, if nothing is "not you," then your beliefs are all there is. One part of you (the part that is cylon, for instance) believes and adapts to SR, then that part of you represents a small part of the whole.

The way I see it, SR is viewed as a lense. Something you try on, and you use to view the world. It's like each individual aspect of the dreamer (for example: James, cylon, Steve, etc.) are all parts of the dreamer, and, thus, are all parts of a whole. Thus cylon is James is Steve.

The analogy used, then, is that of your body. For example, cylon might represent the hand, I might represent the elbow, Steve might represent the knee. So, if I were to wear a glove on my hand (i.e. cylon is to use SR as a lense), then I don't say "my hand is wearing a glove." I would typically say "*I* am wearing a glove." Because my hand is a part of me.

So if cylon were to take on a subjective belief, then essentially that believe represents a part of the whole, but that belief has affects ON the whole.

Thus, a belief can be both subjective and objective at the same time, depending on the perspective.



And that is a very objective way of stating it.

Yes, i undersatnd the way you use the word "objective".

My question now, is this model: SR, possible?

It's hard for me to believe it because of the conscious of other people. For me, SR would mean that other people are only my creation and this is something i can't really believe because i can see that they have as much conscious that i have.

What do you think, how would you explain other people?
Do other people would live in parallel universe were they have also their own SR?

[oscardelben]

Originally Posted by James81

The only way a reality in which sleep is not necessary or possible would be one in which we dream.

The fact that something is not necessary doesn't mean that you can't do it.

[James81]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

My question now, is this model: SR, possible?

I believe that all things are possible.

[shinyjourney]

Yes sure, but i like to understand the why and how it would be possible. Is there an explication which would be accurate from every perspective?

I have lots of things that don't seem accurate to me with SR. Like other people like i said.

[James81]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

the why

Because if you can conceive it, you can create it.

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

how

First, believe that it is possible.

Then, move towards that possibility.

This may require shifting choices and perspectives.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by James81

Because if you can conceive it, you can create it.



First, believe that it is possible.

Then, move towards that possibility.

This may require shifting choices and perspectives.

Then it's possible for you to find an objective truth, right?!

Keep digging.

[James81]

Originally Posted by gigij

Then it's possible for you to find an objective truth, right?!

Keep digging.

I already found an objective truth. That's why this thread is here.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by James81

I already found an objective truth. That's why this thread is here.

(I must not be following closely enough ... I missed that.)

Of course it's possible to have objective truths in your subjective reality if that's the way you choose to create it. I think most people do it that way.

But it's not neccessary ...

[cylon]

Originally Posted by James81

And that is a very objective way of stating it.

Ok, you win. I've reached my quota of intellectually debating something that goes beyond intellect for the day.

[James81]

Originally Posted by gigij

(I must not be following closely enough ... I missed that.)

Wat. It's right there in the first post.

And, no, I don't really feel like it's been "debunked" as subjective.

Originally Posted by gigij

Of course it's possible to have objective truths in your subjective reality if that's the way you choose to create it. I think most people do it that way.

But it's not neccessary ...

I would say that it's possible to have subjective truths in your objective reality, but that's not necessary either.

[James81]

Originally Posted by cylon

Ok, you win. I've reached my quota of intellectually debating something that goes beyond intellect for the day.

Thank you.

[gigij]

Originally Posted by James81

Wat. It's right there in the first post.

And, no, I don't really feel like it's been "debunked" as subjective.

Huh? Seriously? Oh I thought you had conceded that ... my bad.

lol

Well one man's objective truth is another's consensus reality ...

[cylon]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

It's hard for me to believe it because of the conscious of other people. For me, SR would mean that other people are only my creation and this is something i can't really believe because i can see that they have as much conscious that i have.

That's because you believe people are separate from you, and have their own thoughts in their own brain, like you have your own thoughts in your brain. But there's only one "mind", and this is what created the illusion of the brain.

No one has as much consciousness as anyone else, because there is only one consciousness. It's not split off. It just appears to be split off, because of ego. When you put ego aside for periods of time you'll see it. Took me a long time to see it, because I thought it was my brain creating everyone, too.

[wolfgang]

is this kind of like asking "if a tree falls and no one is there, did it make a sound?"

objective is what? the ability to separate something and say it exists without "me"?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

objective is what? the ability to separate something and say it exists without "me"?

That's my definition.

Like, "the earth has always been here, and before we were here, it was objectively here." It exists apart of the observer.

But I guess objective means different things to different people. Just like "can". It means you have the ability to do something but it's also something you put cola into. Same word, different meanings.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by cylon

That's my definition.

Like, "the earth has always been here, and before we were here, it was objectively here." It exists apart of the observer.

But I guess objective means different things to different people. Just like "can". It means you have the ability to do something but it's also something you put cola into. Same word, different meanings.

I'm with you on that.

no "thing" exists without an observer.

however, I wonder at the moon. why does it come back when I look at it? does someone else look at while I'm not, to keep it there? or is it like a field that gets established such that after many many many many points of consciousness observed it - there becomes a pattern of consciousness of the moon that keeps itself there by the consciousness of it's self. a morphic field that is part of our own system in a way, waiting for us to observe it when we can. like an unconscious mind pattern that is there, lurking, existing in potential until something stimulates that mind pattern to be active.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I'm with you on that.

no "thing" exists without an observer.

however, I wonder at the moon. why does it come back when I look at it? does someone else look at while I'm not, to keep it there? or is it like a field that gets established such that after many many many many points of consciousness observed it - there becomes a pattern of consciousness of the moon that keeps itself there by the consciousness of it's self. a morphic field that is part of our own system in a way, waiting for us to observe it when we can. like an unconscious mind pattern that is there, lurking, existing in potential until something stimulates that mind pattern to be active.

My take is a more SR take, which to me means yes it is only there when you look at it. But not with your eyes.

Because your eyes aren't real. Whoever observed you into existence and created your eyes is observing that illusory moon through your illusory eyes.

Again dreams make a good analogy. You probably have dreamed about the moon or planets or something. Who is keeping them there in the dream? Your awareness. They aren't actually there. But they appear to be.

[shinyjourney]

Originally Posted by cylon

My take is a more SR take, which to me means yes it is only there when you look at it. But not with your eyes.

Because your eyes aren't real. Whoever observed you into existence and created your eyes is observing that illusory moon through your illusory eyes.

Again dreams make a good analogy. You probably have dreamed about the moon or planets or something. Who is keeping them there in the dream? Your awareness. They aren't actually there. But they appear to be.

Do you believe in SR for you, in a daily basis?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

Do you believe in SR for you, in a daily basis?

Yes and no. It's like when it's late at night and you're laying in bed reading a good book. You might start drifting off to sleep but you want to keep reading so you force yourself to wake up, then you drift off, etc.

SR is like that. Sometimes you're wide awake, and you can SEE it. It's not even a belief, you feel it, you see it in your everyday life. It's very real, and it feels pretty good most of the time.

Then, you drift back to sleep. Ego takes over. Ego puts the blinders on, and instead of just experiencing it, now you're THINKING about it, which just kills it. You can't think about SR because thinking is of the ego and ego does not for a second believe that is is "not separate" from everyone else.

When you are experiencing SR (or awareness, don't get lost in the SR label) you just know, I am you, you are me, we are all one. And really weird, trippy things happen that confirm it for you, which just makes you believe it even more, which makes more weird, cool things happen.

When you are experiencing ego, the opposite happens. You start hearing yourself think thoughts like "you are crazy. This world is real, I'm real, he's real, she's real, we all have our own thoughts, and are independent from each other. You know, the real world?"

And then you start getting down, until you have an experience that proves to you again we are all one. Then you feel better again. Each time this happens, your awareness that we are all one stays around longer. It's like the ego doesn't really know what to do, so it does nothing, waiting for the time it can strike back and make you think we're all separate again. But the longer the interval, the stronger your EXPERIENCE of awareness becomes, and the less you listen to ego.

When I first read about SR it didn't make sense to me, but I wanted to understand it. Now I'm getting there. If I completely, 100% understood it, I would probably disappear into the ether because there would officially be no more separation (and therefore no more world), but I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.

So I just enjoy the process of waking up.

[shinyjourney]

Originally Posted by cylon

Yes and no. It's like when it's late at night and you're laying in bed reading a good book. You might start drifting off to sleep but you want to keep reading so you force yourself to wake up, then you drift off, etc.

SR is like that. Sometimes you're wide awake, and you can SEE it. It's not even a belief, you feel it, you see it in your everyday life. It's very real, and it feels pretty good most of the time.

Then, you drift back to sleep. Ego takes over. Ego puts the blinders on, and instead of just experiencing it, now you're THINKING about it, which just kills it. You can't think about SR because thinking is of the ego and ego does not for a second believe that is is "not separate" from everyone else.

When you are experiencing SR (or awareness, don't get lost in the SR label) you just know, I am you, you are me, we are all one. And really weird, trippy things happen that confirm it for you, which just makes you believe it even more, which makes more weird, cool things happen.

When you are experiencing ego, the opposite happens. You start hearing yourself think thoughts like "you are crazy. This world is real, I'm real, he's real, she's real, we all have our own thoughts, and are independent from each other. You know, the real world?"

And then you start getting down, until you have an experience that proves to you again we are all one. Then you feel better again. Each time this happens, your awareness that we are all one stays around longer. It's like the ego doesn't really know what to do, so it does nothing, waiting for the time it can strike back and make you think we're all separate again. But the longer the interval, the stronger your EXPERIENCE of awareness becomes, and the less you listen to ego.

When I first read about SR it didn't make sense to me, but I wanted to understand it. Now I'm getting there. If I completely, 100% understood it, I would probably disappear into the ether because there would officially be no more separation (and therefore no more world), but I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.

So I just enjoy the process of waking up.

It's interesting, I didn't think about SR as awareness... But that's right that it is when i thought about a subjective reality that i could for the first time understand the phrase: "we are all one, nothing is seperate from me".

But, my question would be why awareness should be SR? Why couldn't we imagine a reality where we are all one, but where everyone has his consciousness??

Yes, maybe it doesn't make sense, but it's hard to believe that anything but me has a consciousness.

It's like i would take power from people whereas i know they think by themselves and make their own theories about it too.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by shinyjourney

But, my question would be why awareness should be SR? Why couldn't we imagine a reality where we are all one, but where everyone has his consciousness??

Isn't that the world you are living in right now? You already created that reality. Success!

Doesn't mean that's the way things actually ARE... but as long as you want to perceive it that way, you will get evidence to support that. Through SR your view of reality is bound to appear real, even if that reality means SR isn't real.

But my prediction is that at some point you are going to have an experience where you feel this unity. It's not something you can explain, but once you feel it, things will get weird. And you can't "unlearn" that experience.

[catalyst]

Originally Posted by cylon

Well, that makes no sense to me in an SR model, because like I've explained, all experience is subjective. But yeah they are just labels, the labels and the intellectual games aren't what matter, but the direct experience. Maybe someday you'll want to try it out yourself.

So objectively speaking, all experiences are subjective?

Forget these 'SR Models'. They are just models built on 'non-sense' - you have to abandon all reason to believe these. We use our ability to 'reason' to survive, and we base this on some axioms of truth. Even the people preaching SR as if it were some newfound religion use this same 'reasoning' based on objective truths daily. You eat, sleep, and **** don't you?

Once you figure out a way to live without having to do these, then I'll become a believer.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by catalyst

Once you figure out a way to live without having to do these, then I'll become a believer.

No one asked you to believe anything. Am I correct in thinking that the concept of SR is somehow threatening to you? You seem to really have your act together, so why on earth are you on law of attraction board of all places, taking pot shots at our silly beliefs? Aren't you past the debating with the village idiots phase of your life?