questions on subjectivity

[LArrighi]

I wonder about some implications of Steve's theory that the whole universe is just made up by one's mind: that there isn't any "out there."

/1/
If everything "out there" (including other people) really is just a part of me "in here," then it should be possible for me to re-dream other people into being different people. For instance, if you're a part of me and if you know calculus (which I don't), I should be able to "dream" you into not knowing calculus, even "dream" you into never having learned calculus. (Or I should be able to "dream" Steve into never having created this web-site, or into being a girl named Stephanie instead of a guy named Steve, or into having been born in England and died in infancy, or anything else I wanted to dream him into.) Does anyone here think that this could really happen?

/2/
If reality really is subjective (and is not merely imagined to be subjective), what happens when two people hold incompatible views? For example: suppose that "Tom" is a cop and he arrests "Fred" for smashing a window, a crime that "Fred" in fact did not commit (but that "Tom" believes "Fred" committed). Does "Tom's" belief that "Fred" committed the crime somehow cause "Fred" to have actually committed the crime? Or turn it around: suppose that "Fred" indeed smashed the window, but thereafter he suffered complete amnesia and forgot all about it, and there were no witnesses to the event and nobody suspected "Fred" -- does "Fred's" amnesia somehow make it so that the window was never smashed?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by LArrighi

/1/
If everything "out there" (including other people) really is just a part of me "in here," then it should be possible for me to re-dream other people into being different people. ...Does anyone here think that this could really happen?

I'm going to quote Acting Like Godot's masterful answer to your question:

SR does not mean you can transform your reality just as you please.

SR means that you can transform your reality just as you please, to the degree and extent that you possess awareness, control and discipline over your own mind.

Most people have no inkling of how little control they have, over their own minds.

And yes -- it is possible to transform how you dream people to be, such that they appear to completely different. I know from experience.

/2/
If reality really is subjective (and is not merely imagined to be subjective), what happens when two people hold incompatible views?

In subjective reality, there is no "two people" with incompatible views. There is just you. If you're dreaming two dream characters who are in conflict, look at how the two aspects of yourself are in conflict, resolve it, and *poof!* the "external" conflict disappears.

[cylon]

There is a fine line between solipsism, and subjective reality. You are describing solipsism. Solipsism being the idea that your physical body, physical brain, is the only real thing, and everything else comes from your imagination.

But you are just as unreal as everything else in your awareness. Your body and brain do not exist. ALL reality is an illusion. And that includes you too.

There's really two of you. The REAL you, which is consciousness. That is what creates. Then there's the little you, the person you see inside the mirror. That is the created.

Consciousness looks at the world through you, as a unique observational point. It creates the world, then it uses your fictitious eyes to see what it has made.

[Silenced140]

Parallel universes exist. They are probably right next to us right now but we can't perceive them.

When you change the vibration you put out, you can be sucked into a number of different universes.

Where one person is nicer than they used to be or when something can exist easier.


It's all just a blur of energy. Just particles floating around, waiting to be arranged.

[catalyst]

Subjective reality, is a non-reality - fantasy. It's wishful thinking. An easy way out for those who don't want to face reality (that seems to apply to a lot of people these days).

An honest man uses his ability to reason, followed by action, to get what he wants. The fool just wishes for it to be true because he wants it so.

Regardless of what you believe, 1 + 1 = 2.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by catalyst

The fool just wishes for it to be true because he wants it so.

I used to think this way. But once you've had enough experiences of your mind creating reality, your beliefs change.

At that point, even if you want to dismiss it, it becomes difficult to.

My advice is to experiment with this stuff, see what the results are, then decide if you still feel the same way.

[catalyst]

Originally Posted by cylon

I used to think this way. But once you've had enough experiences of your mind creating reality, your beliefs change.

At that point, even if you want to dismiss it, it becomes difficult to.

My advice is to experiment with this stuff, see what the results are, then decide if you still feel the same way.

I exist. I have a brain, and the ability to reason. I have values which I won't compromise. I have the choice to act based on rational reasoning to achieve my goals and to live productively. I am perfectly fine working for what I want. I'm not a wisher, I'm a doer.

[SethWilliams]

Originally Posted by catalyst

Subjective reality, is a non-reality - fantasy. It's wishful thinking. An easy way out for those who don't want to face reality (that seems to apply to a lot of people these days).

An honest man uses his ability to reason, followed by action, to get what he wants. The fool just wishes for it to be true because he wants it so.

Regardless of what you believe, 1 + 1 = 2.

Your a very judgemental person arent you.

Please dont mock that which you don't understand.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by catalyst

I exist. I have a brain, and the ability to reason. I have values which I won't compromise. I have the choice to act based on rational reasoning to achieve my goals and to live productively. I am perfectly fine working for what I want. I'm not a wisher, I'm a doer.

What do you hope to achieve by saying this to a bunch of fools who don't want to face reality?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by catalyst

I have a brain, and the ability to reason.

Not only that, you cannot stop using your brain and you cannot stop reasoning.

That is why your reality is subjective. It is completely processed through your own brain. Which comes with its own unique set of filters; memories, synapse connections; biochemistry; thoughts and values ...

I have values which I won't compromise

Ah yes. As I was saying ....

Those are subjective too. Values, I mean. I appreciate how deeply those recurring flashes of electrical signals in your synapses affect your perception of reality.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by catalyst

I exist. I have a brain, and the ability to reason. I have values which I won't compromise. I have the choice to act based on rational reasoning to achieve my goals and to live productively. I am perfectly fine working for what I want. I'm not a wisher, I'm a doer.

Yay for you.

Is that supposed to count as a response to my comment?

[cylon]

And I'm a lover, not a fighter.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by cylon

Is that supposed to count as a response to my comment?

Yup. It is supposed to imply that:

you, Cylon, do not have brains;
you can't reason;
you're compromising your values;
you are irrational;
you are not achieving your goals;
you are living unproductively;
you hate your work;
you spend time making idle wishes; and
you are a lazy bum.

Polite, isn't he.

[lookcloser]

Originally Posted by Silenced140

Parallel universes exist. They are probably right next to us right now but we can't perceive them.

When you change the vibration you put out, you can be sucked into a number of different universes.

Where one person is nicer than they used to be or when something can exist easier.


It's all just a blur of energy. Just particles floating around, waiting to be arranged.

Wow, I always wondered if this is how we could explain all of this. Parallel universes. With each of our consciousness-es being in different universes.

[lookcloser]

Originally Posted by catalyst

Subjective reality, is a non-reality - fantasy. It's wishful thinking. An easy way out for those who don't want to face reality (that seems to apply to a lot of people these days).

An honest man uses his ability to reason, followed by action, to get what he wants. The fool just wishes for it to be true because he wants it so.

Regardless of what you believe, 1 + 1 = 2.

You have no idea of what our minds are capable of. I used to think SR was delusional too.
One day I decided to experiment with it and I can say I have never looked at myself and the world the same way.
Why do you resent something that you don't have first hand experience with? Its not like people are sacrificing animals to inculcate this belief system.
It makes many people happy, peaceful, loving and increases a feeling of unity. Since you have brains and reason I'm sure you will understand these are the kind of people we need today. Happy,loving,united people How does any of this NOT work out?

[Nea]

Originally Posted by catalyst

I exist. I have a brain, and the ability to reason. I have values which I won't compromise. I have the choice to act based on rational reasoning to achieve my goals and to live productively. I am perfectly fine working for what I want. I'm not a wisher, I'm a doer.

And you have eyes which can see and interpret only part of the spectrum, you have ears which can hear only specific frequencies, you have brain which can literally rewire as a respond on different experiences. You, your eyes, your ears and your brain are solid, but particles of which all of that is made are energy (which is proven even with that old, legendary equation E=mc2 ), you have a perception of time for which you are convinced that it is linear and constant, but it isn't (Einstein's relativity proved that too, hope you know that... ), and let's not forget: you perceive sun, moon and the other stars are circling on the sky, and that Earth is flat . No, you are right, you are not subjective at all in your judgement .

See, especially if you consider all the "real" mainstream knowledge and just think it trough a little bit, you'll see that there is no way that you can be objective. So, actually you don't know that what you wrote for sure, right? But if I'm wrong and you do, that's ok, you are absolutely right - for yourself and your world, of course .