Some fallacies I found on the forum

[Sam988]

Im new to the forums from this site and liked it very much, people are smart and open. And i want to see what are ppl's point of view in the LoA concept.


The concept people have of LoA here (i dont want to generalise, just seen many ppl with this opinion), is that whatever you think of you bring it to your life. All great so far.

But some ideas here bugged me. First i want to explain my view of the concept.


In my view, the basics the LoA concept work this way: I think about something, lets say i think about a car i've seen on the newspaper and i thought the car was cool. Soon enough i start seing cars like this all around on the streets, and i get impressed because ive never imagined there were so many cars like that out there. Im sure everybody had this experience already, being it with cars or anything else.

This is easily explained as we all know. Since there is just TOO MUCH information on the environment, our "simple" brains can only absorb a very very small fraction of this huge quantity of information, and it selects the informations based on our focus on the moment.




With this explained and as basis for what im going to write next, it gets easy to understand how we can make the LoA concept work for us, and here is where some ideas ive seen on this forums bugged me.

My belief of how we make LoA work for us is this: We focus continually on, lets say, get a promotion on the job. So we eventually, through repetition of thoughs, deliver the message to our subconscious saying we want this promotion. The subconscious then starts acting towards it, and since we focus on this promotion, every situation or opportunity that arises and that we couldnt see before is now clear to us (to our conscious or subconscious mind) and so we constantly act the right way in these little situations, building up the odds for us to finally get this promotion.

Thats my point of view, the scientifical and proved one.

Now, some people say on the forum things like:

- The universe is constantly giving us signals and helping us find what we have to do.

What does that mean? Seems too mystical and cant be proved to be true, at least i cant think of any way. People are assuming the universe is intelligent, and we have no proof of that.

- God is the Universe, and we are part of the Universe, therefore we are a part of God.

The developing of this thinking is true, but the basis is, at least, dubious. I mean, who said God really exists?

- Since we are part of God, we can get ANYTHING we want in life, because there are no limits to God and our mind, which is part of God's mind.

Again, this belief has a dubious and not proven base.

- We are responsible for everything that happens to us.

This is another good belief, but again, its definitely dubious, because there is an unimaginable chain of events constantly happening and we cant possibly control everything around us, even though we can affect some part of it.



Well, the point of my post is not to flame those beliefs, i think they are tremenduously benefical for anyone who choses to put faith on it, by obvious reasons. The point here is just to emphasize that we cant blindly believe in something, because any possibly false belief taken too deep can bring damage. A good example is a person who has deep faith on all the believes above, so she wastes all her money and makes a big loan to open a business, and the person has so much faith it will succeed she throws all her chips on it, and it fails, the person goes bankrupt, and full of debt.

So, basically we can have those beliefs, but we must be careful for them not to get us blind, otherwise we can get very screwed.

[impaul99]

Ah, the debate about this will continue forever.

I understand your point of view, mostly because it used to be mine. However, at some point in life you may find yourself in a place where ONLY believing and acting and thinking in ways that are accepted and "proven" by the general public just isn't good enough for you anymore.

It is EASY to believe and trust in things that are tangable. Things that you can touch, feel and see. It is NOT as easy to believe and trust things that are not so tangable like your best friends loyalty to you, your spouses love, your child's respect, the concept of spirituality, faith, etc.

You get to do whatever you want with your life so it's always your choice, but I have found some of the most fulfilling and happy experiences in my life donig things that required me to venture outside of things that are proven and commonly accepted.

For example, financially speaking, statistically most people (about 95% of the population in North America) will work for 40-50years of their life and retire broke. Less than 5% of the population will retire at a standard of living higher than just above broke. About 2% will be extremely wealthy. Learning that when I was younger I decided that I did not want to be part of the 95% that would be broke all their lives.

So, because I realized that, i needed to accept the fact that if I wanted results that are different from 95% of the population, I would have to be prepared to THINK and ACT differently from 95% of the population. That means that I would have to do things that aren't proven. Things that aren't accepted as normal.

In fact, in most cases I had to do the exact OPPOSITE of what the rest of the crowd was doing. When the stock market was booming, I was investing in the underpriced real estate. When the real estate market was booming, and stocks were crap, I was putting money into stocks. When all my friends went to school, I went to work. When they started working for large corporations with big salaries, I started working for myself. When they went to party, I went home to read personal development books.

None of those things showed me any PROOF that I would be better of pursueing them. In fact, in most cases the opposite was shown. But, I listened to my intuition and pursued my own path, and now I am SO much better off than most of my friends who followed the "path of least resistance"

At some point, you're going to have to decide how much faith you put into the pre-established ways of thinking that the rest of the world already believes in, and how much are you going to put into your own intuition, and new ways of thinking. For me, thinking differently has paid off.

To summarize, I have chosen to take the path in life where I seek my dreams, even if they seem impossible or improbable. I have chosen to try new things and put my faith in them to see if they work. In some cases I got burned, in MOST cases I came out well ahead of the game.

Yes, if you take risks, you may find yourself bankrupt. So what? Start again, and keep moving forward.

If you DON'T take risks, your pretty much guaranteed to get nowhere.

If the safe path works for you, stick with it, but the reason you're seeing the other parts of LoA discussed that you might find "unproven" is because a lot of us have chosen the path of taking some risks and trying things out EXPERIENTIALLY as opposed to just using our logical mind to try to figure out what would work or not before trying it.

Remember that no progress is made if we simply think and act in ways that we've been thinking all our lives.

Just my point of view.

[Acting Like Godot]

Welcome, Sam. You are about to learn a very special little secret.

Originally Posted by Sam988

My belief of how we make LoA work for us is this: We focus continually on, lets say, get a promotion on the job. So we eventually, through repetition of thoughs, deliver the message to our subconscious saying we want this promotion. The subconscious then starts acting towards it, and since we focus on this promotion, every situation or opportunity that arises and that we couldnt see before is now clear to us (to our conscious or subconscious mind) and so we constantly act the right way in these little situations, building up the odds for us to finally get this promotion.

You are describing the reticular activating system in our brain. Yes, it is important. But LOA is more than that. Two examples from my personal experience, for you.

Example 1

8 October 2006. I decided that in a few years' time, I would do my further studies. I decided that I needed to get a scholarship to finance my way.

22 October 2006. I work out my strategy for building my credentials to get the scholarship. Among other things, I decide that I must get opportunities to speak at industry conferences. I had never done it before, and had no reputation for it, but I decided to IM for it anyway.

31 October 2006. One week later, before I had done a single thing about my intention or told anyone about it, the opportunity came out of the blue.

22 November 2006. Spoke at prestigious conference, organised by a global association.

I emphasise that I have zero reputation as a conference speaker. As of 22 October, the conference organisers did not even know I existed. I did absolutely nothing in that one week. But within one week of my IM, a curious chain of events took place, through no action or deed of my own, which led them sending me the speaking invitation.

Example 2

[Acting Like Godot]

I don't know which other example to give you. I have so many examples. In my personal experience, thoughts do affect reality. You're part of reality, so inevitably your thoughts will influence your own behaviour (which is a very important part of the overall story). However, the effect goes beyond that. Far beyond that.

It is something that you can only convince yourself through personal experience. What I strongly encourage you to do is suspend your disbelief, say, just for two months, and try it out for yourself.

I have manifested promotions; immediate taxis; better sex; smart children; specific work assignments; new job opportunities; money; remedies to minor physical ailments etc etc. Plus personal changes for myself - in terms of things like calm, peace etc.

Easy for skeptics to dismiss the external manifestations as random coincidences, wishful thinking, confirmation bias, good luck etc. I know better, because I keep fairly detailed records of my manifestations, week after week, month after month. I am very conscientious about it. I have the records to verify for myself what I actually did or did not manifest, and the outcome.

[Sam988]

impaul99: What you said in your reply didnt really go against my point of view. In your post, you propose a counter-intuitive approach to things, and i agree with you to some extend. What i mean by that is that those 95% of the american population really dont have any kind of goal or plan to be rich, so they invariably end up in poorness, because as everyone knows "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail". So if someone uses the LoA the way I described it, the person will certainly have outstanding results in life, and will definitely NOT be in the 95% of population category. No need for believing in unproven things.


Acting Like Godot: Pretty interesting post. But you sure your experience isnt melted togheter with some kind of unconscious confirmation bias? How many times have you wished for something yet not received it? I'm sure a lot of times. How can you explain it? Why is your will sometimes "recognized by the universe" and then delivered, and sometimes it isnt?

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Sam988

impaul99: What you said in your reply didnt really go against my point of view. In your post, you propose a counter-intuitive approach to things, and i agree with you to some extend. What i mean by that is that those 95% of the american population really dont have any kind of goal or plan to be rich, so they invariably end up in poorness, because as everyone knows "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail". So if someone uses the LoA the way I described it, the person will certainly have outstanding results in life, and will definitely NOT be in the 95% of population category. No need for believing in unproven things.

Ok, here's your answer then. If you're already reaching your personal goals/intentions and achiving everyting you want from life without having to resort to "unproven things" as you call them, then that's awesome. Keep doing that.

I only started to look past the "normal" proven things after I already tried the normal things and couldn't get anywhere. ie. If you set a goal to make a million dollars, for example, and you can do it without believing in LoA the way we do, that's awesome.

For me, I didn't actually start seeing a lot of results in my life until AFTER I started to believe in "unproven things".

[themaster]

Thanks for reminding me.. this is another reason why I call LOA a religion..

There are only two basic theories behind what LOA is.. (my theories)

1. Mind Programming (what you basically describe)

2. Religion
- Universe.. unproven energy (or can only be proved on a individual basis)
- Has teachings about life after death
- Has a interesting sect phenomenon

There is a 3rd theory.. I have..
- Telepathy.. if we were all linked by telepathy.. then we could broadcast our thoughts Telepathically and people would respond cause they could receive them..

In this theory.. it's hard to actually disprove what isn't Telepathy.. you find a quarter on the street.. did a person not drop that quarter for you because you sent out telepathy to have it dropped?

(I've found that the only tests that seem to be able to prove it's not involved with human interaction and would be the *universe* would be a solar flare.. or messing with the weather (solar flare less likely too interpretation of human intervention) but either way.. these are hard tests to do.. and prove on a individual basis.. I wouldn't try convincing your therapist or fellow man)

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Acting Like Godot: Pretty interesting post. But you sure your experience isnt melted togheter with some kind of unconscious confirmation bias? How many times have you wished for something yet not received it? I'm sure a lot of times.

You can check it for yourself on my blog. I do not merely record successful manifestations, as and when they occur. Instead:

1. I record my manifestations and goals;
2. I record the personal actions that I take (if any)
3. I record subsequent events in my life, like an ordinary diary process, as they occur.

By comparing the manifestations, and then the subsequent events, the success rate can be determined. And if you bothered to check, you will probably begin to see that my success rate is extremely high, and often not attributed to my personal actions, nor to wishful thinking.

Example 2

17 December 2006. On my blog, I record my new idea that I shall regularly provide learning experiences for my little kids.

21 December 2006. On my blog, I record that I used a certain IM technique to manifest the intention that my kids shall be extremely bright.

25 December 2006. On my blog, I record that I've selected some books that I want to read with my little kids. But I still haven't gotten round to reading to them yet.

20 January 2007. I record that I read to them - some bedtime stories.

27 January 2007. I record my surprise that my little girl (not yet 2.5 years old) suddenly seems to be able to read, at a standard well above what's supposed to be normal for her age. I actually attributed it to her playschool, not to IM, nor to myself - I wrote: "They must be doing something right at my little girl's playschool."

8 Februrary 2007. Out of the blue, the principal suddenly calls up and says that she wants to move my little girl into a class for older kids. They have observed that she has suddenly become very bright and they don't think it's appropriate for her to stay in the class with kids of the same age.

---

Note that it was only 1.5 months (between 21 Dec and 8 Feb) between the date on which I manifested the intention, and the date on which the principal called up, saying that the little girl must be moved to a class for older kids.

[Pagoda]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Thats my point of view, the scientifical and proved one.

Scientific studies have shown:

The placebo effect is the most powerful medicine we have.

That physical bodies of people with multiple personalites actually change depending on what personality is prevalent (i.e. one personality has diabetes the other does not.)

Our thougths effect physical things - be it throws of a dice, random event generators, etc.... (A compilation study of 73 seperate but similar experiences showed that the odds that the effects witnessed in these experiments were just chance were 1:10^76 (1 followed by 76 zeros).

Our thoughts effect other living things - Clove Backster if famous for the studies he did showing that plants have measurable reactions when a human threatens the plant with fire or cuts them. He then later showed that the plants show the same measurable reactions when humans merely think about hurting the plant. (They don't even have to be in the same room when they are thinking these thoughts.)

Our thoughts are connected - Scientific studies have shown that people who have spent time together are actually linked in some way. The experiments work like this. Put people together in a room for an hour or so, then seperate them. Now take one of the individuals and create measurable brain activity in them by flashing lights in their eyes or using other such methods. The exact same brain activity at the same time is measured in the other person who is just sitting in an isolated room and is experiencing no physical stimulus.

Our thoughts are capable of transcending time and space - Remote viewing has been tested again and again, to be a significant, measurable, and unexplainable occurrence.



I began my journey from the same place you are standing now Sam988. And science has backed me up, each step I have taken.

Science is not to the point of explaining the how of what is happening. But it is starting to show that something unexplainable is happening. That is significant, and any sceptic worth his weight should at least admit that.

[Sam988]

impaul99: I can get great results by establishing goals and then working out ways to reach it. But i do have a deep faith that i will achieve it, because i really trust in myself, so i think that as long as there is faith, your method and mine arent very different.


themaster: You're right, the concept of LoA you guys believe in is really a religion, actually its the best religion ive seen lately, because almost every belief of this religion helps us out in our life, but is still a religion. And being a religion, it can be false, and sometimes i might get screwed if i give up reason and have a blind faith in something.


Acting Like Godot: Interesting blog and records, but i would rather believe it if some kind of scientific research was done on LoA, and where the results can't possibly be normal and coincidence. Not that im saying youre lying or anything, but since i personally dont know you neither do i know your life, i keep a feet back from changing my mind based on what other people say that happened to them.

Originally Posted by Pagoda

Scientific studies have shown:

The placebo effect is the most powerful medicine we have.

That physical bodies of people with multiple personalites actually change depending on what personality is prevalent (i.e. one personality has diabetes the other does not.)

That the mind has amazing powers i have never disagreed, faith is powerful. Our mind can surely change our body in ways the science hasnt really figured yet. But the power of the mind has some limits. It cant, lets say, make us win in the lottery just because we intend to and deeply believe we will. And i wont enter the "subjective reality" thing i've read in an article of this site, because that concept leaves no space for discussion, we either believe it or dont.

Originally Posted by Pagoda

Our thougths effect physical things - be it throws of a dice, random event generators, etc.... (A compilation study of 73 seperate but similar experiences showed that the odds that the effects witnessed in these experiments were just chance were 1:10^76 (1 followed by 76 zeros)

This is amazing, and it would change my concept of reality if it's real, so could you give me some links where i can know more about this?

Originally Posted by Pagoda

Our thoughts effect other living things - Clove Backster if famous for the studies he did showing that plants have measurable reactions when a human threatens the plant with fire or cuts them. He then later showed that the plants show the same measurable reactions when humans merely think about hurting the plant. (They don't even have to be in the same room when they are thinking these thoughts.)

Our thoughts are connected - Scientific studies have shown that people who have spent time together are actually linked in some way. The experiments work like this. Put people together in a room for an hour or so, then seperate them. Now take one of the individuals and create measurable brain activity in them by flashing lights in their eyes or using other such methods. The exact same brain activity at the same time is measured in the other person who is just sitting in an isolated room and is experiencing no physical stimulus.

Our thoughts are capable of transcending time and space - Remote viewing has been tested again and again, to be a significant, measurable, and unexplainable occurrence.




I began my journey from the same place you are standing now Sam988. And science has backed me up, each step I have taken.

Science is not to the point of explaining the how of what is happening. But it is starting to show that something unexplainable is happening. That is significant, and any sceptic worth his weight should at least admit that.

Yes, indeed science is "starting to show something unexplainable is happening", but something unexplainable today is just some time away from being explained and figured. Maybe this comparison isnt very good, but its the best i tought of now.

Just look at that "possessed" guy of the cemetery in the bible, who could break iron chains. At that time, science couldnt explain the phenomena at all, nowaydas we know he was very likely to have epilepsia, and about the iron chains we know now that people under situations of extreme stress and danger can do unbeliveable things. But since science couldnt explain it at that time, the church went an said it was the demon who gave him this seemingly unnatural power, therefore, the Devil existed, as much as God and the Angels and all that stuff.

See where im going with this? Seemingly unnatural powers that are now not explainable and that do exist, cant prove and entire theory, that we have the Mind of God, that we are the only consciousness in our reality and everything happens because of our thinking, that we can be and get whatever we want, including the power to fly (as stated in the "subjective reality" article from this site), and so much more stuff i dont remember now.

[Pagoda]

Originally Posted by Sam988

This is amazing, and it would change my concept of reality if it's real, so could you give me some links where i can know more about this?

The source where I first found this was Lynne McTaggart's book "The Intention Experiment". She talks about a great many scientific experiments that suggest our minds effect the material world. So does her previous book "The Field"

But the study I reference was actually published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration, 1997; 11:"Correlations of random binary sequences with prestated operator intention: a review of a 12-year program" by R.G. Jahn.

Hope that helps.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Acting Like Godot: Interesting blog and records, but i would rather believe it if some kind of scientific research was done on LoA, and where the results can't possibly be normal and coincidence.

Well, it's your choice.

I always tell people - you yourself can be the scientist here. This particular experiment is unlike research into the migratory patterns of the blue whale, or the chemical composition of rocks on the moon. For this particular experiment, you already have all the equipment you need - your own brain and your own life. There is no excuse for not doing your own experiment.

If you don't trust your own brain and your own life, why should you trust science? Anything you read or know about science is processed through your own brain anyway.

Always remember - if you do your experiment, the "worst" that could happen is that you will fail, and be right where you currently are, anyway. The "best" that could happen is that you could start getting results. Which you may then dismiss as mere "coincidence" or "luck". That's ok, because you can go on experimenting and manifesting bigger and bigger results until you're further convinced.

For example, if you could successfully manifest a 10% salary increase, and still be skeptical, you could try to manifest a 20% salary increase instead.

If you could successfully manifest a 20% salary increase, and still be sceptical, you could try to manifest a 40% salary increase instead.

If you could successfully manifest a 40% salary increase, and still be sceptical, you could try to manifest a 80% salary increase instead.

Like me. Yes I did succeed. Example 3 here. To be precise, an 82% salary increase.

Manifest whatever you like. Whatever would convince you. But if you're starting with the premise, "Nothing that happens in my life, no matter how absolutely amazing or miraculous, would convince me about LOA ...... unless I am first told by some magazine article or book that there is a bunch of scientists whom I've never met in my entire life and don't personally know, who have scientifically & conclusively demonstrated that LOA works ..." ... well, I have to say that sounds really rather stupid.

-----

By the way, there is still scientific controversy over Vitamin C. And if you won't believe in anything that science hasn't proven, then you shouldn't believe that your mother loves you. Love can't be scientifically proven.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Just look at that "possessed" guy of the cemetery in the bible, who could break iron chains. At that time, science couldnt explain the phenomena at all, nowaydas we know he was very likely to have epilepsia, and about the iron chains we know now that people under situations of extreme stress and danger can do unbeliveable things. But since science couldnt explain it at that time, the church went an said it was the demon who gave him this seemingly unnatural power, therefore, the Devil existed, as much as God and the Angels and all that stuff.

See where im going with this? Seemingly unnatural powers that are now not explainable and that do exist, cant prove and entire theory, that we have the Mind of God, that we are the only consciousness in our reality and everything happens because of our thinking, that we can be and get whatever we want, including the power to fly (as stated in the "subjective reality" article from this site), and so much more stuff i dont remember now.

Well there is the flip side of the story. Once upon a time, it would be completely unscientific to believe that you could talk to someone one hundred miles away.

It would be completely unscientific to believe that milk turned bad because there were little invisible organisms in it doing things.

It would be completely unscientific to believe that air wasn't just air, but was a mixture of different types of gases such as oxygen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide.

It would be completely unscientific to believe that sex could pass on fatal diseases.

It would be completely unscientific to believe that the earth was round (surely everyone would fall off, if that were the case?).

In 2007, there can be many things which would be unscientific to believe in, because these things cannot be scientifically proven. But I still believe that my mother loves me, for though it is unscientific to believe that, I can experience her love for myself. I still believe in LOA, for though it is unscientific to believe that, I can test it for myself every day in my own life, to my own satisfaction, and I have.

Have you?

Or do you still think that your mother does not love you?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Just look at that "possessed" guy of the cemetery in the bible, who could break iron chains. At that time, science couldnt explain the phenomena at all, nowaydas we know he was very likely to have epilepsia, and about the iron chains we know now that people under situations of extreme stress and danger can do unbeliveable things.

By the way, you may be interested in this book - Glimpses of the Devil. The author Scott Peck was a psychiatrist with a lifetime's experience in treating psychiatric patients. He says that genuine cases of demonic possession are extremely, extremely rare, but that they do exist. His book relates two cases which he personally encountered.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Manifest whatever you like. Whatever would convince you. But if you're starting with the premise, "Nothing that happens in my life, no matter how absolutely amazing or miraculous, would convince me about LOA ...... unless I am first told by some magazine article or book that there is a bunch of scientists whom I've never met in my entire life and don't personally know, who have scientifically & conclusively demonstrated that LOA works ..." ... well, I have to say that sounds really rather stupid.

Actually i already started an experiment with LoA 2 days ago, im trying to manifest a real (same as a dollar here in brazil), see if i find it somewhere on the floor or wherever, lets see what results i'll get. And believe me, im not ignorant, i can distinguish coincidence from events that are very against the odds. The events you state on your blog are obviously against the odds, but since they didnt happen to me, how can i possibly be supposed to be sure of the existence of LoA?

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

In 2007, there can be many things which would be unscientific to believe in, because these things cannot be scientifically proven. But I still believe that my mother loves me, for though it is unscientific to believe that, I can experience her love for myself. I still believe in LOA, for though it is unscientific to believe that, I can test it for myself every day in my own life, to my own satisfaction, and I have.

Have you?

Or do you still think that your mother does not love you?

The difference is that i already had enough proofs to believe my mother loves me. But i didnt have enough proofs to believe LoA exists, even though im making some experiments, i still didnt collect results, so only time will answer it. To get me convinced, i didnt need to find an article in a science magazine saying "Hey Samuel, your mom loves you, so be happy". I just know she loves me, because i have enough proofs, which i still dont have when it comes to LoA.


About the rest of your argument, im not saying that a thing thats not scientifically proven doesnt exist. Im saying that just because something is not scientifically proven, you cant relate it to an explanation created by your mind to explain it, like the church linking the "possessed guy" to the existence of angels, devil and god. So, just because our brain can do some amazing stuff that hasnt been scientifically explained yet, like healing ourselves, or having ESP, it doesnt mean that one of the theories people create to explain it is real, like LoA.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

By the way, you may be interested in this book - Glimpses of the Devil. The author Scott Peck was a psychiatrist with a lifetime's experience in treating psychiatric patients. He says that genuine cases of demonic possession are extremely, extremely rare, but that they do exist. His book relates two cases which he personally encountered.

Alright man, first convince me of LoA, then we can go to other stuff like the Devil and whatever else you feel like... ok?

Actually thats why i have a step back about faith. When i give up reason, anything can be plausible to believe in. And blowing myself for 72 virgins in heaven like the kamikazi bombermans out there wouldnt be so scary anymore.