The valididty of the LoA

[themaster]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

You're doing it again here, with your "John's a negative guy."

Then.. I'll just shut up..

Originally Posted by moonrambler

I bet John sees himself as a positive guy.

I agree with you.. but his statements are what reflect the "negativity"

Were all good people moonrambler.. not a bad one among us.. (if you ask me)

Originally Posted by moonrambler

When you design your messages to provoke a reaction, you are breaking the rules that Steve set up so the forum would follow his vision for this website.

I agree with you moon.. but this happens all the time.. in a myriad of ways.. whether on purpose (me) or on accident (aren't really any accidents from my way of thinking)

Steve calls this forum "personal development for smart people" where and when do smart people get to develop when they "brush every comment and idea" under the rug..?

Rules are made to be broken.. that's just the truth.. it's not something I say I'm trying to do.. every time we make a rule be it "slavery" or "unequal rights for woman" we break it..

If you ask me.. there are no rules to self.. we are a beautiful people and society.. everything we do is beautiful in every way..

My posts with john were simple.. to reflect back his negative statements and comments about how he's see's us.. so that he could see himself in a different perspective.. it's hard to say if that worked or just got him more agitated.. (I think it did both)

There has only been one other forum member where I have really had to talk like this to and that would be smartalx.. and no it didn't exactly go this way.. it went differently..

I went out of my way many times in my posts to say the following

"John I don't really know you.. I offer the idea of being a mirror"
"And John I apologize"

I don't say that stuff just cause I'm being nice to mods.. I mean that too..

I don't hold what I said to john as a feeling.. I consider them a reflection.. but I can't go round and also say my words are "untrue" cause there not..

I am not justifying my words (and yet, I am ) I am saying I did my best to offer John a reflection of himself for discussion.. this reflection is obviously skewed through my unique interpretation/perspective..

I apologize again and if this is not good enough.. I'll just be glad to shut up for real.. and let it go.. I am not absolving myself of blame or pretending I'm unequal.. I take responsibility that's just what it means.. I know what I said.. I know how I said it and I know why.. it was all to help john and myself.. however since this is a case of judgment.. it rests on those who have to judge..

Originally Posted by moonrambler

This too. Why couldn't someone be angry with you?

They could be angry.. but I'm external.. all problems are problems of the self.. that's what I believe.. I do understand however that some people believe different.. and they have a right to believe that..

Originally Posted by moonrambler

As I mentioned earlier, you could present your case in Steve's or Erin's individual forum or in Gen & Intro. But repeating it several times here that you don't approve of banning doesn't have an impact, as I kind of doubt either of them are reading here.

I do not wish to bother them.. however, I would like to say in talking to Steve last time.. he is a awesome individual.. I can see why I chose this forum..

We may not agree exactly on ideas of "subject matter" but that doesn't not make it so.. steve is a really nice person.. <emotional self says "hi">

Originally Posted by Angela

You don't have to, but if you'd like to transform that, I'd be happy to talk with you in the future; if you don't care to, that's fine, too, it only means that we won't be talking together.

I would like to transform this.. but I think we need to agree to meet together and agree the transformation is for both of us?

If this is just a 1 sided thing.. it won't work..

If you would like to talk about this.. then yes, I would like to openly or privately.. I leave it to you.. I believe it would be a good learning experience for us both..

[John Freestone]

I just got news a while ago that my ban was lifted, after mods recognised that I was subject to serious provocation.

Maybe we can learn something, or maybe that's just a lie I tell myself and I'm just addicted. I don't really know why this forum sometimes becomes so fascinating to me. But there are some reasons I feel I should come back for now. Thanks for lifting the ban, and I will try to stick to the rules.

Themaster, hello.

Originally Posted by themaster

Ohh.. I realize in any thread with someone this "negative" that's how you get answers.. but you see I don't mean it..

And I apologize.. sorry, john..

See this is one of those places where I would insult you before, because I get such a strong feeling of dishonesty from you. I glance up and you're talking about someone being "negative" - it could be me. I find your communication broken and hard to follow, and I don't read half of what you write, even in the midst of a brawl with you. You don't seem to care to express yourself carefully, so I don't read carefully. But I pick up on bits.

So, maybe you were talking about someone else. Maybe you judge someone else as negative. Maybe you judge a lot of people as negative. And then, right after your apology, I read...

Melchior.. I call people out on their stuff.. that sometimes means it looks like a insult etc.

...suggesting that you know people's "stuff" and call them out on it, and that "looks like" an insult.

I was very hurt to have my words twisted, in the passages where you repeatedly told me I was angry, hateful, bitter, sad, "leaving" (like ready to die), etc., etc., despite my attempts to correct your view of me. It was even more irritating to know that your view of anything is made up and doesn't have to bear any resemblance to external facts. Only when I express opinions about you are they "fantasy" and you provide me with your "facts".

I was especially hurt because these insults (as I consider them) made me angry, hateful, bitter, sad, and "leaving" (thankfully, just the forum).

I even posted to explain that. And you responded by telling me that no, I was wrong, I was all these things and you, with your "light and life" talk, brought that to the surface. That is, as far as I'm concerned, heaping insult on top of insult. I also posted to remind you that your complaint against me recently was that I don't validate people's views, and how ironic that was, and again, habitually, there you were utterly determined to tell me what my stuff is.

I read on, still wondering how much I can trust your apology, whether you are actually capable of understanding what apology means, whether there is any remorse or learning behind it, and I find...

Yet, if you ask me.. everything I said was true.. until John said "it wasn't true.."

This isn't clear, so I'll skip it, but it adds to my suspicion.

Then I see John is banned.. and I speak up for him..

Did you speak up for me? What you said publicly that I saw was simply to complain about the banning rules generally, as was noted by moonrambler in reply....unless I've missed the speaking up for me bit.

because john's a negative guy

Ah-ha, here we go. John's a negative guy. So there it is, as I expect from you now. It's not a dreadfully bad insult, but it just demonstrates how sincere your apology was earlier. What about trying to validate my opinion, if that's your philosophy? Or at least try to stop reversing it completely every time you comment on me.

One can actually see in this thread that John is afraid of the mods..

Mild insult number two - that I'm afraid. How you can judge my fear is yet another mystery you don't share with the world. It must be a gift I suppose. I can only say that I don't feel any fear of the mods at all, nor do I have any idea where this fantasy of yours came from. I suppose I could be unconsciously afraid of the mods, and your amazing divining skills picked that up.

as was actually rockchick.. a forum where people are afraid to speak their minds..?? sounds a lot like society (yes, that's a joke..)

(for the record if I didn't know how you all "think" I wouldn't go out of my way to label some jokes.. jokes.. just to be on the safe side.. sometimes when I'm joking you all think I'm not)
Yep, that happens..

This looks a bit like youre saying that not only do you know other people's stuff and they are bound to get pissed when you point it out (by reversing their views of themselves), but you're also joking, and that must be clear since you sprinkle smileys all over your posts, so it's obviously other people's fault if they think you're being other than friendly, but maybe you should use more smileys.

I don't play the character of "goodie-goodie" all the time.. I do my best to be myself.. on a forum that can just mean your playing a character.. but I'm not trying too.. trying to be me..

themaster, you are yourself. trying doesn't come into it. you simply are your (possibly very passive agressive) self.

Like this is a conversation I might have on the street.. now people are so angry and so upset and or pissed off.. that actually saying some of the things I do might provoke someone to violence.. in person.. that's true..

The things you do are provocative and, at least emotionally, violent. Is it not possible that you see a lot of angry, negative people because that's what you project (both by expecting it, and by "calling people out on their stuff" in rather unhelpful ways)? Maybe you live in a really bad neighbourhood. Maybe you suffered a lot of anger and violence against you in the past. I don't know, I'm just flagging it up for you, calling you out on your (possible) stuff. It's your stuff, so it's yours to decide whether I'm on to something. Unlike you, if you say not, I'll accept that. I don't even care if you say anything more about it. Your forcing people to do their stuff seems to consist of badgering them - you even said you say things to get a rise out of me.

But the honest thing is there not angry with me.. there angry with themselves..

Possibly...or they're not angry at all...or perhaps they weren't but your negativity and anger is making them angry...which is your anger at yourself. Why is it always just other people, themaster, who are at fault?

Nope, it's why I asked John to come back..

Interesting choice of words. You seem to be almost a habitual economizer with the truth. Did you REALLY ASK for me to come back? I think you mean you COMPLAINED about the banning regs. I get the sense again of the idea of you asking me to come back popping into your head, whereupon, since it's there, it takes on the reality of everything else in there.

I always give a honest reply..

If only you knew the value of doubt. I'm not always honest, just so you know.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

I just got news a while ago that my ban was lifted, after mods recognised that I was subject to serious provocation.

John.. I think you might also recognize.. that I asked for you to be "unbanned"

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Maybe we can learn something

I'm always learning john.. every experience is a learning experience..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Maybe we can learn something, or maybe that's just a lie I tell myself and I'm just addicted. I don't really know why this forum sometimes becomes so fascinating to me. But there are some reasons I feel I should come back for now. Thanks for lifting the ban, and I will try to stick to the rules.

And I will try to talk to you more neutrally as I am now..

And I very much enjoy your neutral tone..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

See this is one of those places where I would insult you before, because I get such a strong feeling of dishonesty from you. I glance up and you're talking about someone being "negative" - it could be me. I find your communication broken and hard to follow, and I don't read half of what you write, even in the midst of a brawl with you. You don't seem to care to express yourself carefully, so I don't read carefully. But I pick up on bits.

John, I'm not a expert all right? (just clearing the air here.. all right?)

But this is my understanding..

Is it possible to write with such light and life and love.. so vibrationally high (if you know that word.. "vibrationally") that everything you say.. most of it comes out confusing.. miss-understood..

It's like you read a sentence and you go.. huh? What does that mean and then another.. I don't get it.. and then another.. wtf?

It wouldn't surprise me if our interactions were like this.. this is what I'm saying..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

So, maybe you were talking about someone else. Maybe you judge someone else as negative. Maybe you judge a lot of people as negative. And then, right after your apology, I read...

Very, clear John.. I said to moonrambler you were negative.. that's my interpretation of much of your statements..

I don't think that's a "wrong" interpretation do you?

I believe you've called ALG a "fool" and some other names like that.. I can't remember if you called me one.. but you have.. used the same words on me.. yes..

I am not trying to be personal when I say that you're a science (damn I forget what I said ) faker.. isn't that what I said ohh.. lackey!

I could say those same words to someone else who came on the forum too.. yah, never know..

My point with this statements is not that you are "bad" (I think you're a good person.. in fact I think your wonderful person )

My point is to show in a way that you are making science a "religion" and that like everyone else into science.. you rarely do the work.. and are up for debate.. and I believe I said that many times..

I try to show it this way so that you might see it from a different perspective..

As I said to you before.. people are always trying to put me in a "EGO" box.. it's like "the master talks about limitation 24/7, yet he doesn't know that by doing that he creates limitation"

"this example was removed to keep my promise to someone"

But the thing about me is.. you can't fit me into a category.. it's just too hard and too impossible.. I talk about too many things.. on this same forum near this thread that I'm telling you you're a science lackey I am telling tiffy love.. to love herself.. I'm telling Nic that the spiritual journey is a tough one and it's like never over..

I am more than the sum of my parts.. and I know that you John are more than sum of your parts too.. perhaps that something we can agree on?

Originally Posted by John Freestone

...suggesting that you know people's "stuff" and call them out on it, and that "looks like" an insult.

I was very hurt to have my words twisted, in the passages where you repeatedly told me I was angry, hateful, bitter, sad, "leaving" (like ready to die), etc., etc., despite my attempts to correct your view of me.

John, I'm sorry that you were hurt.. I meant no personal offense.. see it straight from my heart.. I care about you john.. just trying to help..

John, if someone came up to you on the street or a parking bench sat down next to you and said.. "I can see your very unhappy, upset, sad and I just want to say.. I love you and I care about you.. and I wish you well" do you think that would not be a nice gesture?

Or would you feel hurt by those words..?

Because John, that's what I'm doing.. I'm saying.. that you're feeling bad and your annoyance at my words is the problem I wish to help you with.. it's a HUGE LOAD your carrying.. that I'd like to help you unburden yourself from..

These forums are about "personal development" yes?

And as such that is how I approach you.. I would like to help you and perhaps myself "personally develop"

John, yours is a tale of Darth Vader all right? (I know humor may not work here.. but I'll give it a try)

Once Darth Vadar was a good person.. happy.. got a woman.. he wanted.. practiced the "force" *cough* "new age".. but he had some issues that held him back.. he had mother issues and girlfriend issues.. and eventually these problems consumed him and he turned to the "dark side"

This is the tale I see and what you have shared with me.. and I'm just a young jedi saying.. "father I know there is good in you"

And that's all I'm saying John.. all my text to you is a offering of living a joyous, abundant life..

John, I was not trying to scare you (fear) when I mentioned you might die.. were all dying.. but what I was really saying was.. that if you hold on to ANGER and HATE and those things.. they manifest in the body.. they actually kill you slowly..

Do think if you and I did some research on some medical study's we might find a common comparison that being a OPTIMIST makes you live longer? And being a PESSISMIST makes you die quicker?

[themaster]

I think you I.. might be able to find "common ground" that this is true..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

It was even more irritating to know that your view of anything is made up and doesn't have to bear any resemblance to external facts.

It's this irritation and other feelings you get from me.. that I use to point you to something called the Emotional Guidance System..

You see one of my teachers John.. abraham says that we all have a Emotional Guidance System and most of us.. just don't know how it works

So I say to you.. Feeling good is alignment with our truth.. and feeling negative is where you have a belief or definition with our truth..

It's really a truth or feel good detector..

You and most people who resist what I say.. call it lies or liar.. feel negative.. and I use those emotions to show you.. a truth.. that you could use.. if you could validate the idea of EGS?

Originally Posted by John Freestone

I was especially hurt because these insults (as I consider them) made me angry, hateful, bitter, sad, and "leaving" (thankfully, just the forum).

I apologize again.. John.. these things were not meant "personally"

I have no opinion of you john really.. and I do not judge you or you're actions.. really.. however I do make observations of what you say and sometimes reflect them back to you..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

I even posted to explain that. And you responded by telling me that no, I was wrong, I was all these things and you, with your "light and life" talk, brought that to the surface. That is, as far as I'm concerned, heaping insult on top of insult.

John.. rather then approach these words.. I'm going to ask you how this statements feels?

You see to me it reads negative.. and you're saying you're the victim and I'm the persecutor.. but you're not a victim if you don't choose to see it that way.. and I'm not persecutor.. because I really don't care what I'm saying.. there's no NEGATIVE emotion, no negative FEELINGS in what I'm saying.. there were just words.. written neutrally or from positive emotions.. (meant to get you conversating' and thinking )

If you don't feel this answer is sufficient.. then quote up what I said that was "wrong" or you label wrong.. and I'll be glad to answer again..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

I read on, still wondering how much I can trust your apology, whether you are actually capable of understanding what apology means, whether there is any remorse or learning behind it, and I find...

This isn't clear, so I'll skip it, but it adds to my suspicion.

John, suspicion of me.. is suspicion of yourself.. I know you don't see it that way.. but that's what it is..

I have been accused before of not being sincere in my apologies.. so you would not be the first to say that.. but I say to you again.. I have no NEGATIVE emotions invested in any of the text I wrote you.. I was in a good place.. feeling good.. offering you a MIRROR a reflection of what you said.. in a different perspective..

I know that sounds all complicated and "new agey" and psychology based But's that what I was trying to do..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Did you speak up for me?

Yes, I did.. I don't want anyone banned on my behalf.. or cause of something I said.. I don't believe in banning as I have said.. just cause I don't believe in it.. doesn't mean I'm going to lobby congress or go to a different forum (or even create my own)

I'm a big believer in changing the rules from within.. It's a pain in the ass and it's not easy.. but we really accomplished something here today..

Thank you mods for giving John another chance..!! I've been on this forum for 3+ years and I've never seen anyone unbanned before (that I can recall)

I believe in 2nd chances John and 3rd chances.. and 101st chances.. I believe were all good people all of us.. we just get caught in our negativity/limitations a little too much.. and that's the same message I've said to you 150 times now

Originally Posted by John Freestone

What you said publicly that I saw was simply to complain about the banning rules generally, as was noted by moonrambler in reply....unless I've missed the speaking up for me bit.

Yes, I spoke up for you John.. I'd speak up for anyone being banned.. this is just the first time I have.. done it so publically, we have had others threads on this forum about banning being a "negative" reflection of self..

[themaster]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Ah-ha, here we go. John's a negative guy. So there it is, as I expect from you now. It's not a dreadfully bad insult, but it just demonstrates how sincere your apology was earlier.

John, all your text before this has been generally negative.. see make a NOTE your trying to be NEUTRAL.. and I appreciate that.. I am matching you to the best of my ability..

It's like a song and dance.. there's a part where the boyfriend cheated and he gets slapped and then she sits on a mountain and reflects about it and "feels better"

And that's where we are with this thread.. we have pulled it from talking about negative to neutral.. whether cause the mods are forcing us too or cause we choose too.. I try to your meet tone.. so I'm meeting it neutrally..

(and for those of you reading.. even John.. sorry if my analogy sucks )

Originally Posted by John Freestone

What about trying to validate my opinion, if that's your philosophy?

John.. every single word you have ever said I VALIDATE.. I don't believe you have ever offered a untruth.. and even if you did.. "I don't care" I don't judge you..

I'm here to have a conversation that may help me.. and it may help you.. and it may help others.. that's personal development if you ask me..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Or at least try to stop reversing it completely every time you comment on me.

John, I have information that may counter a lot of what you say.. I offer this information to you in a sharing.. not a "this is the right way absolutely" it may seem at times like I'm saying I'M RIGHT and your WRONG.. but that's just illusion.. I"m a double sided coin, baby! I automatically let go and say your "right" if you insist on being right..

A lot of problems with my posts are that people miss-understand me.. it's just very common and I don't know how many times I need to talk about it.. before one day they do understand me..

But that's excellent thing about posts and QUOTES anytime someone says they miss-understand me.. I am happy to explain what I really meant again.. and I try multiple times.. sometimes

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Mild insult number two

John this is not a insult.. this is a observation?

Do you wish me to quote where you said that.. you had to tone it down etc.?? I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.. but without quote it's just hearsay.. I'm with you..

John I'm trying to say honestly and neutrally, I've read your posts.. they have a lot of insults in them.. that's just my observation.. if you want me to back that up with QUOTES..?? I will do it.. I will go back and find anything and everything you said.. if you concur that this is not? a common fact.. then we can both let it go.. (it does not reflect this post.. it reflects past posts with others such as joelr and and specifically ALG and maybe me.. )

If you would like to say that when you made them.. there was no "negative emotion involved" fine I believe you.. just as I say what I said was "that way".. but I think deep in our hearts.. it's not "that way"..

Text has kind of psychic information in it.. don't ask me to explain it.. but it does/is more then just text.. there are things that can be gleaned from text.. spiritually

Originally Posted by John Freestone

that I'm afraid. How you can judge my fear is yet another mystery you don't share with the world. It must be a gift I suppose. I can only say that I don't feel any fear of the mods at all, nor do I have any idea where this fantasy of yours came from. I suppose I could be unconsciously afraid of the mods, and your amazing divining skills picked that up.

Everyone's afraid of AUTHORITY john.. everyone (sorry, that authority! is meant to be a cartman.. south park reference )

What your heart doesn't skip a beat if you see a cop? (are my tabs expired?? ohh, no I don't want to get a speeding ticket?)

Authority is there to provoke fear and keep things in line.. if a army or soviets were marching past your door right now.. would you not be afraid?

I understand what you're saying in the context of.. "I'm not afraid to leave this forum behind me forever" and I agree that's a valid way to put that fear away.. but.. I think a small part of you wants to learn and grow here.. and so yes, I'm think you're a little afraid to have left.. (the EGO is very afraid of change sometimes.. very)

How did it feel to be banned?

Did you get angry? "f#$^ you!" "ohh.. whatever" "dammit, I had such good words for themaster to read?"

(remember you can describe how you FELT.. neutrally)

Originally Posted by John Freestone

and your amazing divining skills picked that up.

Well, thank you.. my skills are amazing!

[themaster]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

This looks a bit like youre saying that not only do you know other people's stuff and they are bound to get pissed when you point it out (by reversing their views of themselves), but you're also joking, and that must be clear since you sprinkle smileys all over your posts, so it's obviously other people's fault if they think you're being other than friendly, but maybe you should use more smileys.

You got it down pretty good..

John, you're not me right?

So you don't know how I was feeling.. when I wrote the posts.... I write..

I could write "I hate you" and at the same time being/feeling unconditional love for you.. and not meaning those words.. you just don't know.. so why are you arguing that you do?

The same can be said for you to me.. meaning I read your posts.. and I don't know for sure 100% that your negative when writing it.. but it seems to be pretty obvious to my discerning skills.. and yet.. if you asked me.. I'd fully admit I could be wrong.. I don't believe in absolutes john.. I've already said that to you.. but here's a reminder

John my goal is to let people see for themselves there negativity.. that's my goal.. if they offer me some.. and it's more than fair.. that they show me mine.. if it's there..

So your right.. I'm saying the person responsible "thinks" I'm being negative.. there responsible for that judgment and feeling.. and my hopeful goal is to get them to change that energy and see it positively..

Does that always work? NO

Originally Posted by John Freestone

themaster, you are yourself. trying doesn't come into it. you simply are your (possibly very passive agressive) self.

John, we all know in our heads.. that the internet allows for "anonymity" it's not perfect anonymity.. but it means everyone can be a "liar" and no one can tell the truth..

And so I keep that in mind in all my conversations.. it's not to say "everyone's a liar!" it's to remind myself that sometimes people are "acting" "experimenting" with parts of themselves.. but not being there true selves.. (but you made a statement where you said.. "but everyone's always being themselves" and your right even when your ACTING your still being a PART of you.. maybe not the WHOLE you.. but a part )

So I'm saying to you.. I try to be my true self and not act.. and I hope you do the same.. but when interacting with you I remember.. you can be faking

(this is in fact what Melchior said about me.. in another thread )

Originally Posted by John Freestone

The things you do are provocative and, at least emotionally, violent. Is it not possible that you see a lot of angry, negative people because that's what you project (both by expecting it, and by "calling people out on their stuff" in rather unhelpful ways)?

John, observe my posts for yourself.. I have over 3,000 of them.. if in everyone.. you see me being provocative and seeing "anger" then you'd be right..

But I don't feel that way.. and I don't think that's true no..

I've told you that I like to talk about everything.. no subject is off bounds with me.. no idea has 0 merit with me.. I am willing to talk about everything..

There's a person I like on this forum who's name I'm forgetting it's like "The Unconquered" I think..

She has great motto for a signature.. (she may have gotten rid of it)

It says something like.. "Got a opinion??, teachers are welcome"

Do you know what she's saying with this?

She's saying every subject is open with me.. I'm here to learn.. I wish to learn.. will you be my teacher?

You see that's why I love that signature.. cause that's what I say..

[themaster]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

(both by expecting it, and by "calling people out on their stuff" in rather unhelpful ways)? Maybe you live in a really bad neighbourhood. Maybe you suffered a lot of anger and violence against you in the past. I don't know, I'm just flagging it up for you, calling you out on your (possible) stuff. It's your stuff, so it's yours to decide whether I'm on to something. Unlike you, if you say not, I'll accept that. I don't even care if you say anything more about it. Your forcing people to do their stuff seems to consist of badgering them - you even said you say things to get a rise out of me.

John.. this is how it works all right?

I'll try and explain this concept to you neutrally.. hopefully you'll understand..

Let's say there's a thread and it's called "how to understand child molesters?" (this is the actual name of a thread)

So how this thread goes down is like.. anyone who has issues with child molesters will say the following

"there evil"
"There not me"
"I hate them"
"they are unequal to us"

And I tend to talk (in these more negative threads) to those that have issues.. and I tend to try to explain how to "understand" them..

You see I think these comments above are problems that people have with themselves.. just as I think anywhere you shouted a insult or were really negative.. is a problem you have with yourself..

So I try and explain a way to see it.. where there would be less RESISTANCE..

I try and give them a more "open" viewpoint (do your remember this word "open" from our conversations? )

What I'm saying john is.. the WORLD is PERFECT.. but the reason why people won't call it perfect is cause they have problems with themselves.. and when they don't UNDERSTAND those problems.. they project them!

Do you remember that word "project" from our conversations?

So that's what I'm saying john.. is I participate in this conversations to change and offer different viewpoints that are least resistant and open to more positive viewpoints.. I simply say "let go of your problems" "let go of your baggage" there is no wrong way to be!

And that's every judgment conversation I've ever had in a nutshell!

You would think I would tire of writing 2000+ word posts and re-translating that same message over and over again.. but as you see I'm resilient.. (I don't mind poking fun at myself)

I'm like the borg.. you can't assimilate me..!

Does that explain it?

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Possibly...or they're not angry at all...or perhaps they weren't but your negativity and anger is making them angry...which is your anger at yourself.

John, everyone is angry all right?

Let me explain why.. cause this is a good answer also (did I mention I like your questions? And answering them.. well I do! )

John, let's pretend were on the playground all right?

Now there's me skipping along on hopscotch.. smiling at people.. going around and saying "I love you" to anyone and anything.. I offer a flower to daisy, just to make her smile..

And then there's you.. and your over in the sandbox.. and you see me.. and your pissed! Cause you want what I have.. you want to skip and play and offer a flower.. but you've been beaten to the punch.. your jealous!

And so you kick the sand..

This is analogy for our entire conversations John!

I know, I know.. it seems unfair for you to be the one in the sandbox kicking the sand.. but that's just HOW I see it!

John, I try and act as a "permission slip" to be happy.. to let go.. to start playing hopscotch, and giving your own flower to "daisy" and everything else.. that's what I'm trying to do.. sure we label this a "Adult" game.. but it's actually just a form of a childhood game.. played with super complex Adult rules and methods.. and denials!

[themaster]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Why is it always just other people, themaster, who are at fault?

It's not.. it's fair game.. to ask the same of me John.. I'm fair game! If you see something hit me up on it.. but in this post/thread.. I can't recall ever feeling negative.. I did feel unhappy answering some of your questions.. like it was a "chore" but I did change that.. it turned around in that very same post.. and I noted it..

John, I am giving you very advanced information in this thread.. very advanced ways to be via "new age" I hope it helps..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Interesting choice of words. You seem to be almost a habitual economizer with the truth. Did you REALLY ASK for me to come back? I think you mean you COMPLAINED about the banning regs. I get the sense again of the idea of you asking me to come back popping into your head, whereupon, since it's there, it takes on the reality of everything else in there.

Yes, I asked.. yes, I complained.. I've already addressed this but one more time..

John, I believe that through the idea of "freedom of expression" we can drag out all the dark parts of our self.. all our limitations and "I don't like me's" and we can pull it all out into the light.. as I said..

I want to talk about things.. people want to sweep "under the rug" I'm daring and provocative, yes.. and lovely and energized.. and the dew in the morning sun.. I'm all these things and more.. and so are you..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

If only you knew the value of doubt. I'm not always honest, just so you know.

And I don't promise to be either.. but I try..

[newmark]

Good to see things are back to normal here.

[John Freestone]

Well, it's difficult to know where to go from here. Away seems to be the sensible thing. When moonrambler emailed to tell me I wasn't banned, I replied with lots of good reasons why I shouldn't be here, and then I came back to read a bit, and then I got addicted again and spent hours last night constructing my last reply.

One thing I want to say, themaster, is that I was not well-behaved, and I was insulting, and some of that was of the half-hidden kind, the provocation that we both know you were also guilty of. This is what so often happens when people disagree, and we both did it, and it tends to escalate. I have so far just accused you of the attacks and provocation, but I am probably guilty of some of it myself, for which I apologise. I still feel that there is a great imbalance in that feature, that my style was more accepting of difference while arguing my points, and yours seemed more deliberately provocative, but that may also be my biased view of it. Each of us - I strongly suggest - are likely to skew things to make ourselves feel more innocent, and the other more guilty.

I am trying to wrap this up and stop this discussion about our discussion. I am trying to stop, because my sense is that there will not be a favourable reconciliation and I will continue to feel wronged. Please, I ask you to concentrate on the following point, and try to understand it if you can. You are still projecting on me the image of someone who is sad, negative, angry, hateful or whatever - I haven't bothered to read a lot of your long text above, but I noticed your argument that wouldn't it be a nice thing if a stranger came and sat down beside me on a bench and said I was unhappy and they wanted to help....and you said you want to lift my great burden, etc., etc. - now while you continue to do that, I find you irritating, for the reasons I have given, and I am likely to begin to increase my expression of irritation towards you. You will see this as reinforcing your view - here's all that anger, oh yes, John, let it out and become free and lovely like good old me. You have apparently, therefore, not listened to me, again. You have not validated my opinion. You do not accept that I have better knowledge of myself than you. You continue, therefore, to "try to help me" in a way that I find condescending, self-congratulatory, egotistical, and deeply insulting.

Again, I have to admit that I may sometimes have been these things towards you. Perhaps these judgements of what you are doing are still antagonistic and insulting to you, I don't know. But I'm trying to keep to how I feel about what's going on, and make judgements of your behaviour that I think are easily backed up by the text you type.

Now, keep concentrating. You keep giving me personal-development advice based on your incorrect judgement of me and from a psychological perspective that I don't share - the LoA. As I have tried to make clear already, that is fine if done briefly and tactfully, and with some understanding that the other isn't a believer in your religion, but you just keep on and on about how I'm negative and when you help me to release my great burden and live your way I'll be happy. I have now been pointing this behaviour out, and telling you of its negative effect on me, for quite some time, and you seem unable to stop. You would be continuing to hurt me, but I have learned to skim lightly over your text and I'm kind of hardened to your insults. I don't know whether you are still just not seeing how condescending, patronising and insensitive you're being, puffed up on your own philosophy of superior vision of others' personalities, or if you're just deliberately refusing to stop.

You, who didn't learn much at school, preach your scientifically unsupported psychology at me as if you were teaching me about myself, a person who has
a) been through much of the unsupported belief system you're in, for decades, very deeply, reading lots of material and practising lots of meditation - from late teens to mid-40s
b) has a decade or so on you of life experience in general
c) has an advanced diploma in therapeutic counselling
d) has a decade's experience of practising therapy for a living
e) has written many articles and contributed to published books on therapy
f) has done several years' worth of intense personal-growth work in groups
g) has run several therapeutic groupss
and
i) doesn't give a fig for your immature philosophy and pop psychology, and has made that clear several times!
[Edited to add: and q) doesn't know his alphabet]

(with sincere thanks for trying to help, really, stop it)


Several others have been telling you this recently, and you have been behaving towards them in similar ways, so it's hard even to explain this as your reaction to a non-believer (although maybe it's stronger towards me). I noticed you said to Angela, "I'm sorry... now, does that make you feel better?". Any idea what that says about you? I noticed that several people seem to have got to an impasse with you and asked you to simply stop talking about them or to them. It's time I did the same. One of the main reasons I came back, and one of the reasons I responded earlier in the post that got me banned, is that it's hard to just put someone on ignore and hope that they've stopped writing insults, and it's my right to keep making clear that I reject your interpretations and take exception to your repeated posting of what I consider lies about me. I hope you understand that in certain situations this can lead you into legal trouble. You can't just keep saying bad things about people, even if you also say that you believe they're a good person in the next breath.

But I have to accept that I can't control what people say about me, and may just have to put you on ignore, or just leave, and leave you to your imaginary healing of my terrible pain.

However, I noticed that I was wrong when I said that you probably didn't ask for me to be un-banned, if what you say is true (and, oddly, I believe you). The trouble is, I don't think you genuinely wanted me to be reinstated for my benefit. I believe you wanted to reinstate me so you could continue your patronising healing project on me - the above posts are evidence of that.

Have you noticed that all of this is completely off topic? The purpose of the thread was to discuss the validity of the LoA. ALG and the OP both expressed that to me for very minor diversions. It's odd, there seems to be an automatic assumption that "personal development" will trump any subject matter.

While I utterly reject your view of me as negative, etc., I am concerned about my presence here, and my purpose, because it is and has always been to challenge the LoA. I'm not sure if it's worth it, because I don't have evidence that that has had an effect on anyone of the kind I intend, which is to encourage them to doubt. Many see doubt and scepticism as "negative", when they are virtues, although I've never met anyone quite so entrenched in that view as you.

It is maybe impossible for us to talk to each other in any helpful manner, because our basic assumptions are completely different. You keep checking if you're feeling good, and if you are, the current idea in your head must be true. The argument about how sad I am was to reinforce the idea that my philosophy is wrong, when, in my philosophy, emotional tone and intellectual validity are separate. My commitment is to truth, above happiness (though, as it happens, I'm happy and positive, and part of that comes from having such valuable knowledge since I stopped thinking the way you do).

One of the basic teachings in the kind of therapy I did is that it should only be done with people who are fully informed about what it is and want it from me. Please try to stop doing therapy without training or the consent of your subjects. If I want therapy, I'll go find a therapist. I'll choose one who listens and doesn't start from the position that I'm negative and need fixing. As it happens, I have a supportive, loving partner, and she happens to be a fully-trained therapist as well. It's one of the biggest reasons I'm such a happy positive person.

For now, it wouldn't be fair for me to post all that and ask you not to respond. I'm patient, but I just wanted you to know that I'm very close to the end of this.

[John Freestone]

BTW, you didn't "scare" me (yet more of your fantasies) telling me I was ready to die. I'm not that susceptible to suggestion. I have a rational world view, and that makes me much less susceptible to other people's beilefs, ideas, curses, etc.

[John Freestone]

So, getting back to the question of the LoA and whether it is scientifically valid in the sense of falsifiable, I'll clarify where I feel we got to. I said that certain readings of what the 'law' says (and I consider it a conjecture) would be testable and theoretically falsifiable, e.g. certain very limited studies into mind-over-matter outside the body without normal physical invervention, psychokinesis, etc.. Other readings I consider unfalsifiable, grander ones where the act of consciousness changes reality in unlimited ways, such that the normal methods of science cannot be applied, since if the hypothesis were true, it could create any manner of outcomes by the paranormal route.

Here's a good example from Steve Pavlina's blog: "In subjective reality there’s only one consciousness, and it’s yours. Consequently, there’s only one source of intentions in your universe — YOU. While you may observe lots of walking, talking bodies in your reality, they all exist inside your consciousness. You know this is how your dreams work, but you haven’t yet realized your waking reality is just another type of dream. It only seems solid because you believe (intend) it is.

"Since none of the other characters you encounter are conscious in a way that’s separate from you, nobody else can have intentions. The only intentions are yours. You’re the only thinker in this universe.


"It’s important to correctly define the YOU in subjective reality. YOU are not your physical body. This is not the egoic you at all. I’m not suggesting you’re a conscious body walking around in a world full of unconscious automatons. That would be a total misunderstanding of subjective reality. The correct viewpoint is that you’re the single consciousness in which this entire reality takes place."


That definition of the CoA seems utterly untestable. It is an extreme solipsism, if I have understood it, in which all of the contents of consciousness are unreal, secondary, or created by the self. Perhaps someone else would like to correct that or refine my understanding of it.

I would still like to hear from ALG as to how he contends that the LoA is falsifiable, yet he is also apparently very confident of retrocausality (and considers it the obvious explanation of Libet's experiment, where the train of motor control was measured as beginning before subjects were consciously aware of their decision to act).

But it might be useful to go back to first principles in this thread - is there any consensus about how the LoA is defined. Is it accepted that it's like Steve expresses above? There is just you, reading this, making everything?

If so, I can see why science gets such a bad press - you just created the whole of that too. Logic and reason would all be circular. But then why present QM and suchlike as "evidence" of LoA? Why is science a load of imaginary hogwash except the bits that you think support your worldview, which you also made up to support it? Why would you argue about the reality of QM?

[John Freestone]

Interestingly, according to Steve's view, he's imagining his forum, its rules, the people who post on it, and any infractions, so it's odd that he thinks personal development goes better under a tight rein. It's odd he'd consider any need for a tight rein on anything. But as I imagined him saying in that imaginary post, I guess he's just my projection of him. He doesn't exist. Why do we bother keeping to an imaginary person's rules on this imaginary forum? You just imagined I got banned recently, and I'm a figment of your imagination anyway. You created me to remind you that your ideas are rather odd. Who am I talking to? Well, just you. Obviously. And it's you talking to yourself. You're all that exists. I don't exist. Why did you ban someone, or watch someone get banned, who doesn't exist, for contravening your own imaginary rules on a non-existent forum, that's what I want to know! When you check the agreement, it can say anything you like. What agreement?

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by themaster

Ohh.. I realize in any thread with someone this "negative" that's how you get answers.. but you see I don't mean it..

Melchior.. I call people out on their stuff.. that sometimes means it looks like a insult etc.

Why not phrase it so that it doesn't get taken as an insult then? Or does it feel better (based off of your emotional guidance system) to write as though you were insulting someone?

One can actually see in this thread that John is afraid of the mods.. as was actually rockchick.. a forum where people are afraid to speak their minds..?? sounds a lot like society (yes, that's a joke..)

(for the record if I didn't know how you all "think" I wouldn't go out of my way to label some jokes.. jokes.. just to be on the safe side.. sometimes when I'm joking you all think I'm not)

Then let me tell you this: your jokes are negative in their effect, even if you label them as a joke.

I always give a honest reply.. if this does not satisfy you.. ask again..

Yep, that happens..

Yah, know your about the 3rd or 4th peer to say that.. (and yes, James your answer was cool with me.. here's a acknowledgement of that)

But that is a disagreement in judgment.. you see I think it's working just fine..

That was a joke.. actually I know I help a lot of people.. but they rarely say it

If you're thinking that it's working just fine despite the fact that the people that it supposedly is working for tell you that it isn't working just fine, then I think you're in denial about the viability of your methods.

But the honest thing is there not angry with me.. there angry with themselves..

How are you so sure? Did you ask? And where would this anger come from if it weren't from you purposely provoking it?

It's a perfectly valid question.. Melchior.. how happy are you? You seem balanced and stable recently but in this thread you deny my theory of "oneness" and how did that feel?

Not happy when conversing with you, that is for sure. I actually have to take a while before I first read your post and respond so that I have time to get past the irritation. Yes, your words are irritating and unclear and negative and judgmental. And if those words are your honest reply, then even if you deny them to be that way, I don't have any other conclusion about them to reach. The conclusion is, that you are in denial of what you are doing. And presently, I have no way of getting through to you. Like I said in earlier posts, that is something that you're going to have to change for yourself. The pattern I see, and the one that you even acknowledge points to this conclusion, yet you deny it while I accept it. Perhaps its time for you to look at your own projections.

As for denying "oneness", I didn't feel anything much really, because I know that "oneness" isn't how the world is. "Oneness" can actually be brought under the term of "nondualism", but "nondualism" can only be brought under itself. Just as I can contrast "oneness" with "nonthingness", a dualism, the only way to contrast "nondualism" is with "nondualism" because to contrast it with "dualism" would go against the whole idea of "nondualism". Perhaps you will be able to learn this. On a side note, I also like the idea of nondualism more than oneness because it allows for separation and connectedness as is appropriate.

Nope and yes.. do you understand that we our non-physical beings/even angels.. laugh at us down here.. when we get a mortgage bill and say how can I pay this??

They find that funny.. now there not laughing at the misery of the person in it.. there laughing at US creators gods believing we can't create and have to pay a mortgage bill which is the easiest thing in the world for us to do.. but we just don't believe we can..

Making excuses of others doing it doesn't make it okay for you to as well.

I don't like mean laughs Melchior and I try and refrain from them.. my posts are filled with all sorts of jokes.. just to make them entertaining to write and read.. I know you may want to be all serious.. I do not.. necessarily

Some jokes are fine, jokes about the negativity of the other person in a judgmental matter are not. You who goes on and on about judgment should know this, but it appears as though you do not, or do not care, or care to change it, or want to change it either, because apparently it makes you feel good based off of your emotional guidance system. And yet you deny it.

Nope, it's why I asked John to come back.. I don't approve of banning because I believe it "inhibits" our spiritual growth.. we need to be able to talk about "anything" and while this forum may not wish to allow that.. at some point it either has to change.. or I have to go somewhere else anyway (cause maybe I won't want to talk about "anything" anymore)

Now, this change may take 5-20 years.. or it may never happen.. I don't know.. but I'll stop giving steve the POWER and remind myself.. I have the POWER..

How do you address a problem without a addressing a problem..??

In your case, it may never happen. Not until you get past your apparent denial at any rate. Here, let me help you on this: accept that you're in denial. That's how to address the problem, you have to actually have an addressing of it first. As long as you believe that there is no problem about yourself, as obvious as it is to those around you, nothing will get done about the problem because for you it doesn't exist. Or perhaps more accurately, the problem exists as the other person's problem, the person pointing it out has the problem because that's the only place the problem could occur for you. Certainly not yourself, but that's only because of your denial of your denial. It's your responsibility to do something about it. How does taking responsibility for yourself feel? If your emotional guidance system tells you that you don't want it, that it doesn't feel good, maybe you should take it into the shop for repairs.

Regarding John's comment on the off-topicness of this discussion, if you feel that you wish to continue, make a new thread, or if you decide to post here more, I will create a new thread for you, but I will not promise to reply to it. I've replied enough here to convince you if you really cared to change, if it so happens to be the case.

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

But it might be useful to go back to first principles in this thread - is there any consensus about how the LoA is defined. Is it accepted that it's like Steve expresses above? There is just you, reading this, making everything?

If so, I can see why science gets such a bad press - you just created the whole of that too. Logic and reason would all be circular. But then why present QM and suchlike as "evidence" of LoA? Why is science a load of imaginary hogwash except the bits that you think support your worldview, which you also made up to support it? Why would you argue about the reality of QM?

As this would likely lead us into the debate on subjective vs. objective reality, here's an old thread on that with some of my views about it that haven't since been updated. And I agree, with respect to the LoA, if you adhere to a purely subjective reality, there's no point in talking about it. Progress can only exist in an objective reality (or as I described it in the thread linked, an objective reality with subjective interactions). Logic and reason are circular anyway, being that first principles are circular by necessity of being first principles. As for your actual questions, the hell if I knew.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

One of the main reasons I came back, and one of the reasons I responded earlier in the post that got me banned, is that it's hard to just put someone on ignore and hope that they've stopped writing insults, and it's my right to keep making clear that I reject your interpretations and take exception to your repeated posting of what I consider lies about me.

What I've found is that if there's no truth in what someone is saying about me, it doesn't merit any attention at all. It depends on the circumstances, etc., but for the most part, if someone posted on this forum, for example, "Caren is a self-righteous a**-wipe" I'd have no need to respond to that. I know the truth about myself, people who know me well and love me know the truth about me, and that's good enough for me.

I've let go of the need to have everyone like me, all the time, and if someone is going to form an opinion of me based on a forum post by someone else, then they really wouldn't be the quality friend I'd like to have anyway.

I was thinking all this, and Erin, with very good timing, posted this today:

How to Handle Public Criticism

You do have the right to refute what someone says, but if in doing so, you come out looking like an ******* - well, that's even worse than someone saying something about you! That's YOU taking those actions, YOU saying those hurtful things, whether it's in response to someone's provocations or not.

[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by carenkh

What I've found is that if there's no truth in what someone is saying about me, it doesn't merit any attention at all. It depends on the circumstances, etc., but for the most part, if someone posted on this forum, for example, "Caren is a self-righteous a**-wipe" I'd have no need to respond to that. I know the truth about myself, people who know me well and love me know the truth about me, and that's good enough for me.

I've let go of the need to have everyone like me, all the time, and if someone is going to form an opinion of me based on a forum post by someone else, then they really wouldn't be the quality friend I'd like to have anyway.

I was thinking all this, and Erin, with very good timing, posted this today:

How to Handle Public Criticism

You do have the right to refute what someone says, but if in doing so, you come out looking like an ******* - well, that's even worse than someone saying something about you! That's YOU taking those actions, YOU saying those hurtful things, whether it's in response to someone's provocations or not.

Is there a way you can tell me what I came out looking like that won't be turned into stars?

[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by Melchior

As this would likely lead us into the debate on subjective vs. objective reality, here's an old thread on that with some of my views about it that haven't since been updated. And I agree, with respect to the LoA, if you adhere to a purely subjective reality, there's no point in talking about it. Progress can only exist in an objective reality (or as I described it in the thread linked, an objective reality with subjective interactions). Logic and reason are circular anyway, being that first principles are circular by necessity of being first principles. As for your actual questions, the hell if I knew.

Thanks, that's an interesting thread, and I've contributed there. Good to keep this thread for ... ...the "Validity of the LoA". I'm grinning because it seems nobody wants to talk about that now. ALG was really deeply involved in that, I thought, and then he went off to do something else. He's left a couple of loose ends. I think he's probably having to think about them for a while, make sure his view is complete and consistent by the time he gets back. That always takes longer than you think...

[themaster]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Well, it's difficult to know where to go from here.

Yah, it's hard to talk about now.. when it feels like you can't be yourself..

This text alones seems like you carefully wrote it so you wouldn't upset anyone.. and yah, I understand that.. but still it feels like it's less effective to get to your feelings and emotions..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Away seems to be the sensible thing. When moonrambler emailed to tell me I wasn't banned, I replied with lots of good reasons why I shouldn't be here, and then I came back to read a bit, and then I got addicted again and spent hours last night constructing my last reply.

Nothing wrong with that.. I think you want some spiritual growth..

You know John.. you don't have to say why.. but the biggest thing you could ever explain is..

What happened to you that made you call "new age" a lie?

You see John.. I'm not like you in the idea that.. if I spent a 100 years working on the "theory of relativity" or 100 years just running a grocery store and one day I go "this work is bad/crazy I'm going to forget I ever did this and call this "bad" and never do it again"

See I just wouldn't do that.. and I think that's what you did.. yes?

You see you don't prana breath anymore right? You don't practice reiki anymore right? You've got some sort of negative label on it yes?

I would never invalidate my work like that

"100 years of relativity work.. holy f#$%^#$ poppycock! How could I waste my time like that!"

I would actually say..

"Well, that was fine and nice.. time to be moving on and taking this valid experience with me"

These are two very separate statements to what I think you did John.. you invalidated the work you were doing on yourself and the progress you were making and you can see above I offered some examples of how to validate what you were working on..

Of course this is all supposition so why don't you tell me what really happened? Do you still say that reiki and pranic breathing are good things? Do you still do them today?

I'm going to stay focused on this information.. so I'll deliberately do my best to keep this post short..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

make ourselves feel more innocent, and the other more guilty.

I like balance john, it's what I shoot for

Originally Posted by John Freestone

I am trying to wrap this up and stop this discussion about our discussion. I am trying to stop, because my sense is that there will not be a favourable reconciliation and I will continue to feel wronged.

That's your call John.. and I'm okay with that.. I admit that if I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing right.. then you talking with me.. is going to cause "negative" emotions in you.. not cause I'm trying to insult you but because.. you have beliefs and definitions in the way of being like me.. and I'll bring those out of you..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

You are still projecting on me the image of someone who is sad, negative, angry, hateful or whatever

Not really, John.. after all I don't know you right?

I let go of negative things.. they just *poof* and they're gone..

I'm feeling perfectly fine writing this.. and you have to remember half our conversations are already lost in my memory by this time..

I was able to reference our old conversations in my last post.. but me choosing to communicate differently here on purpose is causing it to shift different

Originally Posted by John Freestone

I find you irritating

John anyone who talks to me and is fighting for limitations.. and "wrong" ways to be will feel negative.. you're not the first and you'll not be the last.. I told you in simple terms (now I remember this from our last conversation ) that it was called "jealousy" in a simple form of emotion..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

You will see this as reinforcing your view - here's all that anger

Your correct.. and you not being able to explain the reason for your emotions leaves you at a loss.. yes, I understand

[themaster]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

You have apparently, therefore, not listened to me, again. You have not validated my opinion.

John, I validate your opinion (easy isn't it?)

As for not listening to you.. let's be clear John you've had the intellectual debates with joelr and alg.. but I don't talk about intellectual stuff.. I talk about reality (a bit )

I talk about.. how are you feeling?

And why does this make you feel bad?

And why do you believe this?

And what happened when you turned to the dark side? (another conversation I now remember from my last post)

Originally Posted by John Freestone

You do not accept that I have better knowledge of myself than you.

I absolutely accept that!

But I think you and I might agree..?? that's it's possible.. I read the manual/instruction book for this life.. and you may not have..

Can you explain your irritation at talking to me..? (even now.. I know it's lessened)

I'm surprised you haven't pulled the card I had last time I had a conversation like this.. the person refused to talk to me.. saying that believing in unicorns and fairies and all truths are true is nonsense..

Haven't heard you pull that card yet? (good for you! )

Originally Posted by John Freestone

You continue, therefore, to "try to help me" in a way that I find condescending, self-congratulatory, egotistical, and deeply insulting.

Then we should cease conversation..?

Because that is my intention with all posts.. now I know you may not believe in "law of attraction" but I do.. and if I say I'm here to help myself, others and you.. and that is my intention then I believe it will be so..

So it's for you to assume those labels of judgment or not.. because the above statement is all that I'm doing here and saying.. if it's easier to desist then let's desist

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Again, I have to admit that I may sometimes have been these things towards you. Perhaps these judgements of what you are doing are still antagonistic and insulting to you, I don't know.

Doesn't bother me.. I don't take anything personally

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Now, keep concentrating. You keep giving me personal-development advice based on your incorrect judgement of me and from a psychological perspective that I don't share - the LoA. As I have tried to make clear already, that is fine if done briefly and tactfully, and with some understanding that the other isn't a believer in your religion, but you just keep on and on about how I'm negative and when you help me to release my great burden and live your way I'll be happy.

No, John.. you don't have to join my religion..

When one is spiritually empowered.. one doesn't need you to "join".. the join my religion, religions are the ones that are fake.. (into disempowerment)

I'm here to help you and myself..

In discussing helping you.. I ask you about the irritations and emotions you feel talking to me?

I ask you why if we go through this thread on 100 occasions with me or someone else.. why you were so bitter and angry? (and we can use quotes to prove it) now that doesn't mean that I quote you and the statement reads really negative and you can't say "I wasn't feeling angry" if that's the statement you make..

[themaster]

Then I have too "validate" your truth.. I'm not here to call you a liar.. I automatically validate your truth..

So, I repeat again.. John.. I don't wish to convert you to the LOA

But I do wish to discuss personally your feelings on the LOA and my feelings on the LOA.. I wish to have a personal discussion without being personal.. (this is one of my many double sided coin statements as you can see.. you see I believe there is way to see things from both perspectives )

(back to keeping it short )

Originally Posted by John Freestone

I have now been pointing this behaviour out, and telling you of its negative effect on me, for quite some time, and you seem unable to stop. You would be continuing to hurt me, but I have learned to skim lightly over your text and I'm kind of hardened to your insults. I don't know whether you are still just not seeing how condescending, patronising and insensitive you're being, puffed up on your own philosophy of superior vision of others' personalities, or if you're just deliberately refusing to stop.

John, I'm going to say it straight here.. "quit playing the victim"

You're not a victim john.. I'm just observing and reflecting what your "sending out!"

If you can't take the truth about yourself! Once again.. we can just stop talking.. how many times do I have to tell you.. I am not personally invested in "making you feel bad" I'm here to ask you why do you "feel bad"? (even the moderator asked you that below..)

Why do you feel bad john?

Why do you care what someone on some "forum" says about you?

I don't.. you can start another thread.. and call me every name or insult in the book.. or come to my house or start a facebook page.. you can say every negative thing about me you want.. and I still won't care!

John, all these writings as of now.. are on the "defensive".. what do you have to defend??

What is it.. honor, integrity, your right, I'm wrong??

What exactly are you defending..?? if I wanted to call you names.. I wouldn't have to write out thousands of characters.. I could get that done in about 2 paragraphs, right?

That's not what I want.. I want to have discussion about you.. and yet it's personal and it's not!

I want to ask you.. why you feel defensive? What's the reason.. really for this post?

I want to ask why you don't have a open perspective.. why you haven't tried a LOA experiment of manifesting a parking space?

I want to ask you what happened to you?

And would really like you to complete that story.. because I think there's growth for you and me.. in talking about it..

I think..

every conversation is a learning experience!

A growth experience!

If you share my viewpoints.. then this mean this conversation is helpful to you and me.. do you share my viewpoints? or would you like to disengage?

It's up to you..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

You, who didn't learn much at school, preach your scientifically unsupported psychology at me as if you were teaching me about myself, a person who has
a) been through much of the unsupported belief system you're in, for decades, very deeply, reading lots of material and practising lots of meditation - from late teens to mid-40s
b) has a decade or so on you of life experience in general
c) has an advanced diploma in therapeutic counselling
d) has a decade's experience of practising therapy for a living
e) has written many articles and contributed to published books on therapy
f) has done several years' worth of intense personal-growth work in groups
g) has run several therapeutic groupss
and
i) doesn't give a fig for your immature philosophy and pop psychology, and has made that clear several times!
[Edited to add: and q) doesn't know his alphabet]

And what has all this gotten you, John?

Do you have a degree in happiness?

How about "tranquility"?

Do you feel at "ease" in your life?

John there are 6 billion people on the planet okay? And very rarely do you ever see any of them smile?

Now what's wrong with that picture?

Why are people not happy, john? You've got all this life experience.. share with me.. what you think..?

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Several others have been telling you this recently, and you have been behaving towards them in similar ways, so it's hard even to explain this as your reaction to a non-believer (although maybe it's stronger towards me). I noticed you said to Angela, "I'm sorry... now, does that make you feel better?". Any idea what that says about you? I noticed that several people seem to have got to an impasse with you and asked you to simply stop talking about them or to them. It's time I did the same.

John, I told you.. I listen to what people say to me.. but I have my right to choose to agree with it.. or not.. (just as you do..)

I can't go into details of Angela and me.. cause I said I would not do that.. however there remains to be seen a problem.. and it will no doubt resurface in her awareness and mine again.. so until the next time..

[themaster]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

One of the main reasons I came back, and one of the reasons I responded earlier in the post that got me banned, is that it's hard to just put someone on ignore and hope that they've stopped writing insults, and it's my right to keep making clear that I reject your interpretations and take exception to your repeated posting of what I consider lies about me. I hope you understand that in certain situations this can lead you into legal trouble. You can't just keep saying bad things about people, even if you also say that you believe they're a good person in the next breath.

John, I understand how reality works so yes..

But you once again you "miss-understand" who I am.. and why I post.. if you did not come back or make a single post again.. I would not follow-up with taunts..

It's clear violation of forum rules to insult people.. and that's not what I'm here to do.. Even if the rules didn't exist! I just wouldn't do it.. there's no gain in insulting people or being negative..

It's just throwing your own problems around.. which is what I'm trying to say about you and the text in this thread..

Once again.. my repeating mantra.. "I want to talk about how you feel.. and why you feel this way.." and it's fair game if you want to talk about how I feel and why I feel this way..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

However, I noticed that I was wrong when I said that you probably didn't ask for me to be un-banned, if what you say is true (and, oddly, I believe you). The trouble is, I don't think you genuinely wanted me to be reinstated for my benefit. I believe you wanted to reinstate me so you could continue your patronising healing project on me - the above posts are evidence of that.

John, read this statement carefully.. you have a very suspicious mind and very suspicious nature..

And you have me painted in a negative light.. all in this quote..

It is not so.. I wanted to continue talking with you.. because it's a good learning experience for me and you.. and others..

If you again don't have the stomach.. don't want to be put somewhat on the defensive.. to answer questions like "why do you feel this way"?

And "why do you believe this?".. then talking with me.. is not for you..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

But I have to accept that I can't control what people say about me, and may just have to put you on ignore, or just leave, and leave you to your imaginary healing of my terrible pain.

John if I just smile once a day and you smile once a year.. that's pain if you ask me..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

Have you noticed that all of this is completely off topic? The purpose of the thread was to discuss the validity of the LoA. ALG and the OP both expressed that to me for very minor diversions. It's odd, there seems to be an automatic assumption that "personal development" will trump any subject matter.

John, we are very off topic.. and yet were "on topic"

To me LOA is us.. it's made out of us.. it is us..

So the name of this thread is..

"Are we real?" lol
"Do we exist?"
"Are we valid in existence?"

I don't mind turning the topic back to LOA.. fine by me.. but to do so.. we have to hear what you know about LOA.. what have you tried.. what happened in your past.. with "new age"?

I told you in this thread.. I talk about everything.. because I believe everything is related!

And I've told that to "Melchior" too.. he just says I don't believe in "oneness" no rhyme, no explanation.. nothing..

Originally Posted by John Freestone

\While I utterly reject your view of me as negative, etc., I am concerned about my presence here, and my purpose, because it is and has always been to challenge the LoA. I'm not sure if it's worth it, because I don't have evidence that that has had an effect on anyone of the kind I intend, which is to encourage them to doubt. Many see doubt and scepticism as "negative", when they are virtues, although I've never met anyone quite so entrenched in that view as you.

When do virtues become vices?

Simple question isn't it.. yet.. look how it paints your post and words..

John, I believe we should all be free to live, love and be happy.. to me LOA is part in parcel with happiness.. because without it.. we all believe "we can't have what we want"

To learn LOA is to learn "you can have what you want"

So it's no wonder that because you post that it's not possible..that I can easily reflect your not happy.. cause I think at least deep down you'd like to admit that if it was real.. you'd use it.. and you'd love it.. and it would make your life better

Originally Posted by John Freestone

It is maybe impossible for us to talk to each other in any helpful manner, because our basic assumptions are completely different. You keep checking if you're feeling good, and if you are, the current idea in your head must be true. The argument about how sad I am was to reinforce the idea that my philosophy is wrong, when, in my philosophy, emotional tone and intellectual validity are separate. My commitment is to truth, above happiness (though, as it happens, I'm happy and positive, and part of that comes from having such valuable knowledge since I stopped thinking the way you do).

John, I believe that if we explore each other through text.. it's possible to get to a common viewpoint and denominator?

Do you wish to do this.. or do you wish to back off? Just leave it..

The choice is yours.. I'm here for debate/discussion for now.. if you want too

I think your as happy as a EGO can get.. John (been there, done that) but I bet you we could make you smile more.. if you came for a walk with me?

Originally Posted by John Freestone

One of the basic teachings in the kind of therapy I did is that it should only be done with people who are fully informed about what it is and want it from me. Please try to stop doing therapy without training or the consent of your subjects. If I want therapy, I'll go find a therapist. I'll choose one who listens and doesn't start from the position that I'm negative and need fixing. As it happens, I have a supportive, loving partner, and she happens to be a fully-trained therapist as well. It's one of the biggest reasons I'm such a happy positive person.

For now, it wouldn't be fair for me to post all that and ask you not to respond. I'm patient, but I just wanted you to know that I'm very close to the end of this.

As you wish.. John

Originally Posted by John Freestone

BTW, you didn't "scare" me (yet more of your fantasies) telling me I was ready to die. I'm not that susceptible to suggestion. I have a rational world view, and that makes me much less susceptible to other people's beilefs, ideas, curses, etc.

No, John.. I think I did.. (the proof is in your rebuttal)

People kind of know when there "dying" inside.. they won't always admit it.. but they kind of know..

As I told you how you feel when you wake up in the morning is a great sign of how much longer you're going to be here.. I wake up and go "wow.. this is exciting.. I'm happy.. I can't wait to do this" now this isn't full on parcel for the truth.. but it's close..

I am not trying to be mean.. by giving you information.. you probably already know somewhat consciously.. I am trying to give you the key to happiness, ease and love (and I'm sure as you say.. your experiencing those things.. but how about more??? What's wrong with more of that? )

_____

Summation:

John, I understand again that you say you have your life together.. I want to offer that your reactions and emotions in this thread.. and even your insults (which you may admit) are evidence to me that you do and do not have your life together.. if you would like to discuss ideas and information on being happier.. this is what I really wish to discuss with you.. this includes ideas like LOA

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Melchior

Then let me tell you this: your jokes are negative in their effect, even if you label them as a joke.

Melchior.. case in point this is how you feel about me!

Listen to yourself.. you are painting "labels" on things I never said..

You've never met me.. you've never even said "hello" to me in physical that you and I are aware off?

And yet, you know automatically that when I wrote some smiley's.. I was laughing at you or whoever I posted too?

How do you know that.. how?

Come on.. let's hear it..?

Melchior.. doesn't matter if I was feeling negative or positive when I wrote that.. it just doesn't matter!

And the point is.. you pointing that out and making it a big deal.. that's what all this text is about..

You see it's become a common emblem for people to super impose what they think about me.. and put a mind's eye label on me.. and I think they think I'm sitting on a firey thrown chair.. spouting "hate" in the guise of smileys

And that is not the case..

Let go of your preconceived labels for me.. melchior.. stop judging me to be what you don't even know I am.. and if you're going to judge me.. then at least do it by reading 3,000 of my posts with your venomous bloodlust..

Because I don't think you see the whole picture.. I think you see 1 little puzzle piece of me.. and it's your filter and label that blinds you from really looking

Yes, yes.. your thread like all threads is derailed and off topic.. (like every thread) but since I believe in oneness and you don't... it's not ever really off-topic.. every word, smiley, feeling and emotion.. is all part of the of the one and that includes the idea of "The validity of LoA"

Melchior, do you remember the thread where you accused me of faking/being the poster?

That's how you feel about me!

Your automatically negative and suspicious about everything I say.. and from that filter.. I don't know how you can judge anything I say rationally or impartially.. your filter is automatically tuned with "I don't like themaster" "he's a fool" etc. etc. and because you filter my posts that way.. that's all you'll see including my smiley's are evil!

Originally Posted by Melchior

Why not phrase it so that it doesn't get taken as an insult then? Or does it feel better (based off of your emotional guidance system) to write as though you were insulting someone?

(ahh.. I have to re-write this whole thing accidently deleted it)

Okay.. so were clear.. I'm not labeling them insults you are.. to me a insult is "go to hell!" did I say that anywhere.. no? Not in any form..

Instead I made observations of what John was saying.. and offered him the emotions reflected.. such as "pissed off" "unhappy" "bitter" etc. (have you noticed I haven't offered these again in his last 2 posts.. that's cause there not there.. he's very neutral, now )

What observations did you make Melchior?

You've read John in this thread what did you see?? What did you observe Melchior.. was he negative? was he insulting? was he bitter or enraged or unhappy?

You tell me..?? There's no wrong answer!

If you say you didn't see it.. fine I validate your opinion and perspective.. but I did see some of these things from John.. I'm sure others did as well.. but that's just my opinion.. it's not right or wrong if you ask me..

(BTW.. this re-write sucks.. I wrote it so much better last time.. lost like 3-8 paragraphs of text.. grr )

Originally Posted by Melchior

If you're thinking that it's working just fine despite the fact that the people that it supposedly is working for tell you that it isn't working just fine, then I think you're in denial about the viability of your methods.

It's not denial.. when you listen.. and say that's not true for you..

Are you trying to tell me my truth's Melchior? or how to be?

Who am I? Do you know me?

People aren't always right about truths.. and wouldn't you say it's detrimental to adopt a "negative" or "not working" idea about yourself?

How can you argue it's denial.. when you listened.. when you at least try to hear and evaluate and consider the information?

That's not denial..

And so maybe.. when you say "oneness" is not a theory you believe.. it's not denial.. but then I would ask you why don't believe it?

Why does that not fit into your rational?

You see even in denial or not listening.. there are still questions and more information that can be shared..

Originally Posted by Melchior

How are you so sure? Did you ask? And where would this anger come from if it weren't from you purposely provoking it?

Blame is a game of victimization.. it says I'm a victim and I have no power.. I'm sure of that cause, I've played that game.. just as you have too..

The anger we have of ourselves and the judgments of others.. is hidden right beneath the surface.. I talked about how it comes out in the post to john about "how to understand child molesters" have a read and see if you can understand it.. (I believe it's directly above this post I'm answering of yours)

I am very sure.. Melchior.. that the anger we have for others is actually with ourselves.. I'm sure cause I've released that anger many times..

I'm sure because my teachers say so.. and I'm sure cause I have a *knowingness* and I'm sure cause I'm capable, certain and commanding of my life and environment.. these are vibrations and states of being not everyone is running most of the time.. but I seem to run them all the time..

Originally Posted by Melchior

Not happy when conversing with you, that is for sure.

I'm not surprised in the least.. sometimes I feel the same way.. in responding to your posts or john.. it's like a "tiredness" and ahh.. "why I am doing this right now?" kind of thing..

You can find a explanation for that in John's post if you care to read.. I can't remember the label for it though.. so you'll just have to find it.. it's about how I annoy people

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Melchior

I actually have to take a while before I first read your post and respond so that I have time to get past the irritation.

Wow, this surprises me to hear you say it.. (most people don't admit it!) I already know this.. I'll give you explanation in person now rather than say.. "read a post for john.."

It's very simple.. your "jealous" I know sounds stupid.. and a bit like a insult.. but it's not.. I'm telling you what that irritation is/feels like..

Dammit.. I so wrote john a really good analogy.. screw it.. I'll copy and paste it.. right here..

_____________________

let's pretend were on the playground all right?

Now there's me skipping along on hopscotch.. smiling at people.. going around and saying "I love you" to anyone and anything.. I offer a flower to daisy, just to make her smile..

And then there's you.. and your over in the sandbox.. and you see me.. and your pissed! Cause you want what I have.. you want to skip and play and offer a flower.. but you've been beaten to the punch.. your jealous!

And so you kick the sand..

_____________________

Now why do you feel this way?

It's because you want! What I have.. you want freedom and a reason to smile.. and love, and law of attraction understanding and release of limitation.. it's simply that..

The irritation you feel means you have BELIEFS and DEFINITIONS that are not in alignment with who you are! Who we are!

Were just children Melchior.. when were being ourselves.. were just kids laughing on the playground if we'd let ourselves be that way..

But we did create a world of judgments! And "wrong" ways to be.. and "right" ways to be..

If you understand anything at all about me.. Melchior.. understand I say "there's no wrong or right way to be" live and let live.. let go of limitations and "wrong" way to be.. and be happy!

If you're not familiar with what feeds you emotions.. I'll share you my information, for consideration.. (again)


It's called the Emotional Guidance System (or Emotional Body) and it responds positively and negatively to the stimuli you feed yourself.. when you tell yourself a "lie" you get negative feedback.. when you tell yourself a truth, you appreciate yourself, you love something outside of or inside of you.. you get positive feedback..

Simple isn't?

Yet, no one on the planet seems to know how it works.. but us few..

Of course you don't have to believe me.. and in your denial of that.. you should feel a tinge negative.. but you tell me? how does the information feel?

Originally Posted by Melchior

Yes, your words are irritating and unclear and negative and judgmental.

Okay, I validate how you see me.. however so were clear.. it's not how I feel

Originally Posted by Melchior

And presently, I have no way of getting through to you.

I'm listening.. aren't I? I just don't believe your truth about me.. is my truth.. simple right?

Originally Posted by Melchior

Perhaps its time for you to look at your own projections.

I'm always looking..!

Originally Posted by Melchior

As for denying "oneness", I didn't feel anything much really, because I know that "oneness" isn't how the world is. "Oneness" can actually be brought under the term of "nondualism", but "nondualism" can only be brought under itself. Just as I can contrast "oneness" with "nonthingness", a dualism, the only way to contrast "nondualism" is with "nondualism" because to contrast it with "dualism" would go against the whole idea of "nondualism". Perhaps you will be able to learn this. On a side note, I also like the idea of nondualism more than oneness because it allows for separation and connectedness as is appropriate.

Sounds like a lot of "circular logic" yes, lol I'm quoting smartalx..

I think that's too many fine fancy labels for me to address.. if you want to break it down simpler.. I'd be happy to give you a different perspective/argument

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Melchior

Making excuses of others doing it doesn't make it okay for you to as well.

And making judgments that others are "bad" and "wrong" doesn't fix anything either..

You know the old saying.. "your ♥♥♥♥♥ stinks too!" lol or it's the hypocrisy thing.. where you claim that "gay sex is wrong" then your larry craig in a mn airport bathroom

Originally Posted by Melchior

Some jokes are fine, jokes about the negativity of the other person in a judgmental matter are not. You who goes on and on about judgment should know this, but it appears as though you do not, or do not care, or care to change it, or want to change it either, because apparently it makes you feel good based off of your emotional guidance system. And yet you deny it.

Are you saying it's wrong to make fun of ourselves..? to judge ourselves and release resistance about ourselves..?? every day on the air.. "The Daily Show" and "Colbert Report" make fun of our politicians and there silliness.. and there not afraid to poke fun at themselves..

But it's more than that.. now you can see actors and people who have been in serious movies.. and they'll make fun of themselves.. they'll poke fun at their movies.. I recently heard "Robin Williams" poke fun at his robot movie in his own standup routine..

Once again I say Melchior.. this statement you make to me.. is how you feel about yourself.. I'm just a guy holding a mirror.. look out you might not like what you see!

Originally Posted by Melchior

In your case, it may never happen. Not until you get past your apparent denial at any rate. Here, let me help you on this: accept that you're in denial. That's how to address the problem, you have to actually have an addressing of it first. As long as you believe that there is no problem about yourself, as obvious as it is to those around you, nothing will get done about the problem because for you it doesn't exist.

Melchior.. if I have a problem show it to me.. I'll listen..

But so far I have evaluated your arguments.. and I cannot share your conclusion.. your conclusion is bias by your own problems.. but I thank you very much for offering me the solutions you did in this thread.. but I don't want to go backwards or be more negative.. and adopting the problems/solutions for myself you offered.. is not a forward direction for me.. but once again thanks!

Originally Posted by Melchior

If your emotional guidance system tells you that you don't want it, that it doesn't feel good, maybe you should take it into the shop for repairs.

lol.. funny.. (look no smiley face just for you... until )

Originally Posted by Melchior

Regarding John's comment on the off-topicness of this discussion, if you feel that you wish to continue, make a new thread, or if you decide to post here more, I will create a new thread for you, but I will not promise to reply to it. I've replied enough here to convince you if you really cared to change, if it so happens to be the case.

Whatever works..

You might think of the playground.. and were playing hopscotch and your saying.. this is the rules and this how we play here!

[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by themaster

Yah, it's hard to talk about now.. when it feels like you can't be yourself..

Not sure if you mean you or me, but you probably mean it feels like I can't be myself. That's fine, no offence taken. "It seems" is a useful phrase. I can be myself. I am myself. Your fantasies don't really bother me.

This text alones seems like you carefully wrote it so you wouldn't upset anyone.. and yah, I understand that.. but still it feels like it's less effective to get to your feelings and emotions..

Maybe. I don't care. There are things to express that aren't emotion.

Nothing wrong with that.. I think you want some spiritual growth..

Why? I've already spent a good amount of my time telling you that if I wanted therapy, I'd find a therapist (that means, not you), and I don't believe in spirits, so spiritual growth doesn't feature on my map of reality. Short answer, you're wrong, again, about me.

You know John.. you don't have to say why.. but the biggest thing you could ever explain is..

What happened to you that made you call "new age" a lie?
You see John.. I'm not like you in the idea that.. if I spent a 100 years working on the "theory of relativity" or 100 years just running a grocery store and one day I go "this work is bad/crazy I'm going to forget I ever did this and call this "bad" and never do it again"

See I just wouldn't do that.. and I think that's what you did.. yes?

No.

You see you don't prana breath anymore right? You don't practice reiki anymore right? You've got some sort of negative label on it yes?

No. No. And not really. In fact I could say that I do some calm deep breathing, but now have the valuable insight that I'm not breathing in prana. I could give someone loving touch and also benefit from the advanced knowledge that ki (prana) has been demonstrated as a false concept scientifically, repeatedly. I could even go as far as to say this: that, in my advanced state of personal development I can enjoy the feeling of energy concentrated in my 'tanden', or the heat in my hands, yet separate this, which I know to be a subjective condition arising from suggestion, from the reality of the situation. I can enjoy samadhi, in that same enlightened condition, rather that placing the vast cosmic interpretation on it that I used to. Does that help?

I would never invalidate my work like that

Jolly good. As you can see (possibly), nor have I.

"100 years of relativity work.. holy f#$%^#$ poppycock! How could I waste my time like that!"

I would actually say..

"Well, that was fine and nice.. time to be moving on and taking this valid experience with me"

Yip. It did take a while to value the positive in it, and there was a certain amount of disappointment and regret that I'd wasted a lot of time dreaming and holding fantastic beliefs as real, yes, but I soon got over that.

These are two very separate statements to what I think you did John.. you invalidated the work you were doing on yourself and the progress you were making and you can see above I offered some examples of how to validate what you were working on..

And as you can see, your continued extrapolation of your incorrect prejudice is backfiring yet again. I hope you're learning.

Of course this is all supposition so why don't you tell me what really happened? Do you still say that reiki and pranic breathing are good things? Do you still do them today?

See above.

That's your call John.. and I'm okay with that.. I admit that if I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing right.. then you talking with me.. is going to cause "negative" emotions in you.. not cause I'm trying to insult you but because.. you have beliefs and definitions in the way of being like me.. and I'll bring those out of you..

But I don't want to be like you, so those things that you see as 'beliefs and definitions in the way of being like' you are to me highly valuable.

Not really, John.. after all I don't know you right?

Right. Perhaps you could use that information more, before you post your 'suppositions'. That would avoid you looking like someone with poor judgement (and an ill-fitting username) and me being offended. Yes?

John anyone who talks to me and is fighting for limitations.. and "wrong" ways to be will feel negative.. you're not the first and you'll not be the last..

That's right. I'm not the first, or the last. Nor am I any of those in between. Please note your correct statement above: you don't know me. I'm not fighting for limitations. I think you have all the valuable insights into the 'game' you play now, from several sources (no doubt you think they're all fighting for limitations, whatever that means). Go figure.

I told you in simple terms (now I remember this from our last conversation ) that it was called "jealousy" in a simple form of emotion..

I missed that. You reckon now that I'm jealous of you? Wow. I can't think of any single feature you've demonstrated that I am jealous of. Themaster, wake up. I pity you. The more you project your vision of me as negative, angry, hateful, bitter, fighting for limitations, and now jealous of you, the more I pity you. I think I may have got so used to your inability to judge me and your inability to listen, that I'm not even angered by your continued provocation (although I have to say you're making progress, it's relatively mild now). I just pity you. You wanted to hear my emotions. There you are. I'm very very sorry for you.

Your correct.. and you not being able to explain the reason for your emotions leaves you at a loss.. yes, I understand

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not at a loss to explain anything, including my emotions. And no, you don't understand. I refer you to your only correct statement so far. You don't know me.

[moonrambler]

Since this thread continues to be mostly a negative personal exchange between two people, I'm closing it here.