The Beginning of the End for The Secret?

[renie408]

Originally Posted by JHL

Volunteer, I dont understand. Isnt this precisely how LOA works? We attract what happens to us?

Or are you suggestiong that there is a force in addition to LOA that is operating as well? What else could have brought that tragedy upon her, if not herself?



So was Joe Vitale right, but just being insensitive? Or was he wrong about the LOA being responsible for the little girls tragic event?

Nobody knows. That is the actual answer. Nobody knows for sure how any of it works. You have to believe whatever works for you. The 'we attract every single thing that happens to us' thing doesn't work for me. I might believe that we don't DEFLECT bad things, but I am not so sure about actively attracting them. But that's my best guess. Joe Vitale's best guess is something else. It seems to me that people have to believe they attract bad things to help them believe they could attract good things, maybe?

I am listening to Eckhart Tolle right now and his The Power of Now makes a lot of sense to me. I believe in the LOA. I don't believe every single word about the LOA that comes from every single PD salesman out there. I think the LOA works, but the more I learn, the more I think there might be more to it (or maybe less?) than just 'you intend and the universe provides'.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by JHL

Very good questions Bitsy. But based on the principles of LOA something they are doing is attracting cot death to themselves. I'm rather hoping a LOA practisioner is going to tell us what.

What do YOU think? Why is the opinion of an LOA practitioner more valid than YOURS? Why wait. Figure it out for yourself. I promise that YOUR answer will be just as valid.

Maybe that is what subjective reality really is. We each look at a given set of information and form hypotheses that work for us. Mine might not work for you, but it works for me and vice versa.

[cylon]

Before I knew it was called "the Secret" or "LOA" I guess it was "creating your own reality." I've noticed that in the past, whenever a concept like this would get brought up, it usually goes from: "oh so you're saying you can win a million dollars by just wishing for it, yeah whatever" and most people agree that's "ridiculous", but at this point the conversation is usually pretty much on the positive side, because you're talking about money, relationships, success, things people are interested in.

.... then the discussion ALWAYS turns to rape, murder, WW2, 9-11, cancer, and the harming of innocent children.

That's the pattern I've noticed at least, and not just with LOA but also on religious websites where believers debate atheists, except the atheists usually say, "ok so your God creates love and happiness but he ALSO created rape, murder, WW2, 9-11, cancer, and the harming of innocent children!"

Just an observation. I don't fully understand subjective reality, but it would seem to me that we do create more of this stuff, in the sense of talking about it all the time.

Like, maybe they are just words, but from this thread, rape and murder and mayhem exist more than they did before. And it's MY FAULT for typing that!

[cylon]

duplicate post.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by cylon

duplicate post.

You want rape, murder etc so much?

[Zombie]

Let's face it, the "end" for The Secret can't come soon enough. I don't think intention-manifestation is something that should be on Oprah. The last thing this world needs is millions of Americans I-Ming in a poorly informed, half-assed way.

And of course the little girl didn't manifest her own murder. The problem is a rapist manifested the right location at the right time. That's why I think the "for the good of everyone involved" bit of Steve's Million Dollar experiment is a bit of tacked-on, feel-good hokey.

The universe (or whatever you want to call it) doesn't care about positive energy or intention. Evil manifests with as much ease as good. In fact those very labels are remnants of society's religious programming. Is a killer pure evil? Is war evil? Is giving someone a lot of money "lightwork"? Each one of those is an internal judgement call based on societal conditioning, not based on any universal truth on the nature of "light" and "darK".

Where the heck did we get the notion that dark is evil, anyways?

[renie408]

Originally Posted by Zombie

The universe (or whatever you want to call it) doesn't care about positive energy or intention. Evil manifests with as much ease as good. In fact those very labels are remnants of society's religious programming. Is a killer pure evil? Is war evil? Is giving someone a lot of money "lightwork"? Each one of those is an internal judgement call based on societal conditioning, not based on any universal truth on the nature of "light" and "darK".

Where the heck did we get the notion that dark is evil, anyways?

Yes, war is evil. Yes, killing people is evil. You do not have to be 100% evil to do evil things. Raping children and burying them alive under your back steps is evil. I am an atheist. My parents were atheist. I was raised in society, so I am sure I have societal conditioning. But even before that I am a human being. I can see where moral restraints and concepts of good and evil allow the human race to survive.

[Pagoda]

Helen Keller, Anne Frank, Victor Frankl, Steven Hawking . . . I could go on and on naming people who have experienced what so many people describe as awful, horrible, bad conditions in their lives. But when you back up and look at the result of that experience, the growth it triggered in these people, or the positve impact these people ultimately have had on the world, your judgement of their experiences or conditions changes.

The fact is we don't know for sure why a little girl would be raped. We all have our opinions, but they are just opinions. But the fact is also that we don't know what the result of that experience will be on her or the rest of the world. Those of you who immediately call the experience an atrocity are doing a disservice to the girl. IMO that is as incensitive as Mr. Vitale's remark.

Disclaimer I did see the show

[renie408]

Originally Posted by Pagoda

Helen Keller, Anne Frank, Victor Frankl, Steven Hawking . . . I could go on and on naming people who have experienced what so many people describe as awful, horrible, bad conditions in their lives. But when you back up and look at the result of that experience, the growth it triggered in these people, or the positve impact these people ultimately have had on the world, your judgement of their experiences or conditions changes.

The fact is we don't know for sure why a little girl would be raped. We all have our opinions, but they are just opinions. But the fact is also that we don't know what the result of that experience will be on her or the rest of the world. Those of you who immediately call the experience an atrocity are doing a disservice to the girl. IMO that is as incensitive as Mr. Vitale's remark.

Disclaimer I did see the show

The end result for Jessica Lundsford is that she was buried alive. I don't think it was that great a growth opportunity for her.

And I think the one doing her the 'disservice' was the grown man that repeatedly raped her, stuffed her alive into a trash bag and buried her under the steps.

Jesus Christ. Do you HONESTLY think that the fast track to personal development for a nine year old is being tortured and raped?? Well, damn. And here I have been protecting my daughter all this time when what I should have done was tart her up and send her over to hang out in a bad part of town.

This is the stupidest thing I think I have read here and I have read some stupid things. And YES, that is a big fat judgement and you know what? I cannot for the life of me even feel bad about it. You can pity me for being so undeveloped. It's OK, I am reciprocating by pitying you for being such an idiot.

[Pagoda]

I never said I wanted a little girl to be raped. Never.

Yes, her body is in the ground. But I don't believe she is, and I don't believe her impact on this world is finished either. Here we are discussing her, after she has gone. It is having an impact on everyone who is viewing this thread and who watched that show.

And if it makes you feel better to call me and my opinions stupid, then please do it. I don't mind.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by Pagoda

I never said I wanted a little girl to be raped. Never.

Yes, her body is in the ground. But I don't believe she is, and I don't believe her impact on this world is finished either. Here we are discussing her, after she has gone. It is having an impact on everyone who is viewing this thread and who watched that show.

And if it makes you feel better to call me and my opinions stupid, then please do it. I don't mind.

So where is she? On a puffy cloud in heaven listening to angels play the harp?

Transcript from last night's Larry King Show.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by renie408

The end result for Jessica Lundsford is that she was buried alive. I don't think it was that great a growth opportunity for her.

And I think the one doing her the 'disservice' was the grown man that repeatedly raped her, stuffed her alive into a trash bag and buried her under the steps.

What???

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by renie408

Jesus Christ. Do you HONESTLY think that the fast track to personal development for a nine year old is being tortured and raped?? Well, damn. And here I have been protecting my daughter all this time when what I should have done was tart her up and send her over to hang out in a bad part of town.

I am amazed at the lengths people will go to in order to rationalize tragedies.

Oh, the good die young.

Having a Down Syndrome baby has taught us how to love even more.

Getting cancer/losing my legs was the best thing that ever happened to me.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

So where is she? On a puffy cloud in heaven listening to angels play the harp?

Transcript from last night's Larry King Show.

And is he also saying that she took one for the team so that the rest of us could learn some great lesson??

Wow. And I thought my head was going to explode earlier.

How about this? Why don't we stop trying to fit every horrible thing that happens into the grand scheme of things and just try to STOP THEM? Instead of running the mental equivalent of a dog agility course so that we can reconcile the LOA, subjective reality and everybody being completely non-judgemental to the point of being useless, why don't we accept that bad things might just be BAD? And that they need to be solved for the sake of our species? It seems to me that saying that we all attract everything and that revolting 'everything happens for a reason' thing that people always barf out when something awful happens, we ought to step up and take responsibility for fixing this world. Saying that we all attract everything is a cop out. It means that I am not responsible for anything other than myself and mine. It lets me off the hook for Jessica Lundsford. She attracted that to herself, after all. I can get back to the business of trying to attract a million dollars for me. Me Me ME. Boy, I like the sound of that. I can get back to being totally self-absorbed and analyzing every thought that flows through my head.

A lot of things you think for yourself are not dangerous. Me thinking that I roll more Yahtzees when I am in a good mood doesn't hurt anybody else. Me thinking that people (especially children) attract rape and murder might cause a problem because it allows me to abdicate my responsibility as a member of the human race.

I truly believe that heaven on Earth is possible. I truly believe that if just a small portion of the six billion people on this planet would start to work on holding positive energy and thinking positively, the world would be a better place. But I don't think that ignoring evil things or attributing them to the victim is heading in the right direction.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

I am amazed at the lengths people will go to in order to rationalize tragedies.

Oh, the good die young.

Having a Down Syndrome baby has taught us how to love even more.

Getting cancer/losing my legs was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Great minds. I was writing basically the same thing while you were posting this.

[Pagoda]

Originally Posted by renie408

And is he also saying that she took one for the team so that the rest of us could learn some great lesson??

As I said earlier, I don't know why she was raped.

Originally Posted by renie408

...why don't we accept that bad things might just be BAD?

Like people having opinions you find stupid.

Originally Posted by renie408

...I truly believe that heaven on Earth is possible. I truly believe that if just a small portion of the six billion people on this planet would start to work on holding positive energy and thinking positively, the world would be a better place.

I agree with you here. I just don't think it is my job to destroy or stomp out all the things I think are bad to make this happen.

[renie408]

There are a whole lot of things I don't care about. In fact, I would not categorize myself as any kind of crusader. But I do think that the formation of some judgements is not wrong. I also do not think that accepting that EVERYTHING, no matter how aberrant or heinous, plays a valuable part in this world is responsible or logical.

I don't think people who hold stupid opinions are BAD. I think you are probably being intentionally blind and may also suffer from cognitive dissonance. But that is just MY subjective reality, so I guess you are safe to stay in your own where you think the rape and murder of children is a useful element to your world and where they brought it on themselves. I just can't live there. I have to live somewhere where we make an effort to condemn certain behaviors and work against them (note: I said 'BEHAVIORS'. We can love the sinner while hating the sin. Actually, I can't. I would happily club to death the guy who killed Jessica Lundsford, but at least I recognize that is something I need to try to grow out of) and where we don't 'blame' the victims of violence and natural disasters for attracting those things to themselves.


BTW...whose 'job' would it be if it isn't yours? And mine? And my neighbors? And your neighbors? Why do we have to 'stomp out' horrible things like child molestation? Why can't we start acting as responsible people and vote for people who would target the things that lead molesters to molest? Why can't we, until we can get the world to be a better place, just start calling a spade a spade and say, "Gee, murdering kids is undesirable. We need to do what we can to stop that."? Instead of blowing off the discussion by saying that the victims attract these things, why don't we say, "You know, if we work to identify at risk kids and get them into treatment, we have a chance of stopping this cycle of violence." And then vote for people who will do this?

[Yev]

I would like to take renie408's thinking one step further and ask a specific question to those of you that believe that Jessica "attracted" her own murder and rape. If she was responsible for this, should we put any responsibility on the murderer/rapist? Was he just an innocent instrument used by the Universe in manifesting Jessica's intentions? If he was being "used" by the Universe then surely it is unfair for society to punish him by sending him to jail.

I suppose you are going to tell us that it was the congruence of a man holding the intention of commiting murder and rape with a child holding the intention of being muredered and raped. And because they were close together the Universe thought "Wow! Here's an opportunity to satisfy two intentions with one manifestation".

Hopefully from the tone of my question you can see that I am disgusted by your (and "Dr" Joe's) attitude. But I am interested to hear your opinion on whether the murderer should take any blame.

[Pagoda]

If you can find where I say all judgements are bad, please show me.

If you can find where I say she brought the rape and torture on herself, please show me.

I will let you have the last word. I think we have gotten off topic anyway.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by Pagoda

If you can find where I say she brought the rape and torture on herself, please show me.

"Dr." Joe Vitale said it.

[JHL]

Originally Posted by renie408

What do YOU think? Why is the opinion of an LOA practitioner more valid than YOURS? Why wait. Figure it out for yourself. I promise that YOUR answer will be just as valid.

Maybe that is what subjective reality really is. We each look at a given set of information and form hypotheses that work for us. Mine might not work for you, but it works for me and vice versa.

I know what I think Renie, and I'm quite comfortable in my perspective. But I'm not the one making outlandish claims here, or trying to sell my (highly dubious) philosophy for people's hard earned dollars.

Someone asked why these discussions invariably go to dying babies and aids and cancer etc. The reason for this is simple - its easy to sell your product on the fluffy stuff in life like cars and money and higher salaries. Its a lot harder to apply the same principles to life's messier issues - because this is sensitive ground. It means that the seller is forced to be VERY clear and careful in their thinking lest they offend someones sensibilities (ergo: no sale). And so we must challenged them to demonstrate the principles of their philososphy under all conditions, which is a perfectly reasonable requirement.

Now, if LOA practisioners concede that, well, maybe a baby doesn't attract its own cot death after all, or maybe that little girl isnt 100% responsible for being raped - then they're conceding that something other than a persons thoughts is also involved in creating their reality. This then means that LOA is possibly involved, but not completely responsible for creating one's reality. Thus your thoughts do influence what you create, and yes it is useful to try and really focus and be positive about what you want to create BUT there's more to it.

And if there's more to it, then we lose out by drawing the line at LOA. It impedes our progress and understanding if we stop here. One day someone or some science is going to uncover a picture of creation that involves far more than just the LOA. Its inevitable. [cynical note:At the very least some marketer is going to come out with some newer paradigm that people will once again cling to adoringly.]

The only reasonable position to take is to use LOA [read: desire, positive thinking and focus) to its maximum effect, but to keep our minds open to possibility. Stay humble, stay discerning, question, think. These are vitamins for the soul.

[Dharma]

We're talking about creating your own reality here... and everyone, including Larry King's show, is stuck on rape and murder.

That should tell you something.

[Antiventurecapital]

Most, if not all, people are scared witless of both life and death.

I have heard physicists comment several times that what strikes them the most profoundly about the universe is its utter indifference to us.

I think most people secretly feel this indifference. This explains why they go into denial by telling themselves that they are mini-gods with complete control over their lives

I brought the great Tsunami upon my myself!
\


Others give up on this life and eagerly await the "next" life where some magical sky-daddy will kiss their boo-boo and make all the pain disappear.

Originally Posted by Dharma

We're talking about creating your own reality here... and everyone, including Larry King's show, is stuck on rape and murder.

That should tell you something.

Well, "Dr." Joe Vitale did state that the little girl brought her rape and live burial upon herself. Others on this board argue that unborn souls decide to come into this world with Down Syndrome, or as thalidamoid (sp?) babies, or some other terrible handicap.

So it's a perfectly valid point to debate.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by JHL

I know what I think Renie, and I'm quite comfortable in my perspective. But I'm not the one making outlandish claims here, or trying to sell my (highly dubious) philosophy for people's hard earned dollars.

Someone asked why these discussions invariably go to dying babies and aids and cancer etc. The reason for this is simple - its easy to sell your product on the fluffy stuff in life like cars and money and higher salaries. Its a lot harder to apply the same principles to life's messier issues - because this is sensitive ground. It means that the seller is forced to be VERY clear and careful in their thinking lest they offend someones sensibilities (ergo: no sale). And so we must challenged them to demonstrate the principles of their philososphy under all conditions, which is a perfectly reasonable requirement.

Now, if LOA practisioners concede that, well, maybe a baby doesn't attract its own cot death after all, or maybe that little girl isnt 100% responsible for being raped - then they're conceding that something other than a persons thoughts is also involved in creating their reality. This then means that LOA is possibly involved, but not completely responsible for creating one's reality. Thus your thoughts do influence what you create, and yes it is useful to try and really focus and be positive about what you want to create BUT there's more to it.

And if there's more to it, then we lose out by drawing the line at LOA. It impedes our progress and understanding if we stop here. One day someone or some science is going to uncover a picture of creation that involves far more than just the LOA. Its inevitable. [cynical note:At the very least some marketer is going to come out with some newer paradigm that people will once again cling to adoringly.]

The only reasonable position to take is to use LOA [read: desire, positive thinking and focus) to its maximum effect, but to keep our minds open to possibility. Stay humble, stay discerning, question, think. These are vitamins for the soul.

JHL, I think we agree on this, completely. When I read your previous post, I interpreted it to mean that YOU thought that babies somehow attracted SIDS and that you were just waiting for somebody to come along and explain it to you. Sorry for that. I have read several posts in the past few days where people have said that they wished person XXX would come along and explain to them what something meant, instead of figuring it out for themselves. I just jumped to that when I read your post.

I believe in the LOA, I don't believe it is THE most powerful force in the Universe or that it works to the exclusion of all else.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by Dharma

We're talking about creating your own reality here... and everyone, including Larry King's show, is stuck on rape and murder.

That should tell you something.

Yeah, it's way better to ignore it.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by renie408

Yeah, it's way better to ignore it.

Uncomfortable facts should always be swept under the rug.

[renie408]

You know, I am torn. One of the things that led me to exploring the LOA and my own inner workings was The Secret. But I was...whatever enough...to recognize that it was like an appetizer and not the whole enchilada, so I started doing some research and reading and asking a lot of questions and I spent a lot of time evaluating the answers. And it has led me to the most astounding growth in my personal development that I have ever been through. So, for that, I am grateful to The Secret and glad it was made.

But then, it is so cheesy and comes off like such an informercial and the 'teachers' from The Secret are now so much more caught up in selling it than TEACHING it that I am afraid to mention it to anybody for fear they are going to label me a naive kook.

I will not be sorry to see some of the hype die down. I am sorry that people are missing out on the real benefits of learning about how our attitudes effect our lives because they are put off by the excessive commercialization of The Secret.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

Uncomfortable facts should always be swept under the rug.

I am just not that much of a sweeper.

Really. You should see my house.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by renie408

You know, I am torn. One of the things that led me to exploring the LOA and my own inner workings was The Secret. But I was...whatever enough...to recognize that it was like an appetizer and not the whole enchilada, so I started doing some research and reading and asking a lot of questions and I spent a lot of time evaluating the answers. And it has led me to the most astounding growth in my personal development that I have ever been through. So, for that, I am grateful to The Secret and glad it was made.

Me too.

Where has it led you? It's led me to a huge burst in PD too. It's like striking a vein in a goldmine, and then following all the other veins which connect to it.

[JHL]

Originally Posted by renie408

JHL, I think we agree on this, completely. When I read your previous post, I interpreted it to mean that YOU thought that babies somehow attracted SIDS and that you were just waiting for somebody to come along and explain it to you. Sorry for that.

No worries at all