Are All Judgements 'bad'??

[renie408]

I am not sure where to post this, but this is where a lot of the discussions about this stuff have been, so I am asking here.

I am working on being non-judgemental. I am not so good at this. I swear, I never noticed how many judgements I make in a day. I make judgements about people's clothes and their hair and their spelling. I can see that these types of judgements are making a statement about me, not about the people I am observing. I get that.

What I don't get is how it is wrong to make judgements about certain behaviors that are destructive. I was recently listening to Wayne Dyer and he stated that we should not make any judgements at all, about anything. What about child molesters? What is wrong with judging that as wrong?

Some judgements just make sense to me. Some are ego based and self-serving and those I readily identify as impeding my personal growth. But I can't see where judging certain things is 'wrong' (and the beauty of it is that if you are a person who believes there should be no judgements, you can't say it is wrong, either, because that would be a judgement!!).

Help me out here. Where am I falling off the tracks in my thinking?

[Angela]

Well, there are judgements, and then there are assessments.

[judge45]

It's in the emotion and phrasing and of course seeing others as you really are.

Observation isn't judging. That person is fat, that person is funny, that person is not so bright.

That person is fat, that's kind of interesting, I wonder why they're fat, I'm glad I'm not that fat, although I better keep up with my exercise and diet otherwise I'll end up like that. I feel a little sad for them, but hey, it's their life.

These are observations that actually help you if you keep the emotion and phrasing right.

Oh My God look at that fat bastard, geez, he must stink, that's disgusting, my god it's so revolting, get on a diet you fat pig, you make me sick just looking at you Blahhhhhhhhhh!!

Nothing benefically to you comes from that. In fact it's just makes you loathe yourself.

It's the emotion and phrasing

HTH

Jeff

[renie408]

Originally Posted by judge45

It's in the emotion and phrasing and of course seeing others as you really are.

Observation isn't judging. That person is fat, that person is funny, that person is not so bright.

That person is fat, that's kind of interesting, I wonder why they're fat, I'm glad I'm not that fat, although I better keep up with my exercise and diet otherwise I'll end up like that. I feel a little sad for them, but hey, it's their life.

These are observations that actually help you if you keep the emotion and phrasing right.

Oh My God look at that fat bastard, geez, he must stink, that's disgusting, my god it's so revolting, get on a diet you fat pig, you make me sick just looking at you Blahhhhhhhhhh!!

Nothing benefically to you comes from that. In fact it's just makes you loathe yourself.

It's the emotion and phrasing

HTH

Jeff

Check. This makes sense to me and pretty much follows what I was thinking.

[Andy]

Well one way to go with this is that whenever someone makes a judgement, I tend to see the process going something like this:

1) Create a standard, it's totally subjective, you have complete control over the criteria of this standard and are free to change it at will.

2) Decide(based on the criteria) whether someone/something meets this standard, or doesn't. And then label them/it.

Judging is a form of labeling, and while it can useful, often people completely lose sight of the criteria they were using to make the judgment and instead see things only as the labels themselves, i.e. x is good, y is bad.

For a lot of the "negative" judgments, it's a good idea to be conscious of what your criteria actually are for using them. For instance thinking, what does this being "bad" really mean to me, what does this person being "wrong" mean? After figuring out your criteria and realizing what the actual feelings on the subject are, the label of "wrong" or "bad" can be discarded and instead you'll be left with something more accurate. Probably preferable too, since things reduced to labels like "wrong" or "bad" are often seen as much worse than what they actually are.

Part of it is seeing if the judgments are really necessary, would there be anything to be gained from reducing things/people to labels in a particular instance?

i.e. person x is walking around with uncombed hair. You could say, "wow that person is so messy." However, is there anything gained by making this judgment, is there any point to labeling the person as messy based on them having uncombed hair? It could be just left at "that person has uncombed hair" (which is still a judgment, based on what the criteria for being combed is, though it's probably less negative and more accurate than messy). Or go even further and say "that person has 263 hairs pointed north, 120 hairs pointed south etc... though at that point what you gain in accuracy is lost in ease.

[DiscoDan]

Originally Posted by renie408

What I don't get is how it is wrong to make judgments about certain behaviors that are destructive. I was recently listening to Wayne Dyer and he stated that we should not make any judgments at all, about anything. What about child molesters? What is wrong with judging that as wrong?

Can you definitively say that, if you were in the child molester's shoes, that you would not behave in the exact same way?

Perhaps it is the case that the very same child molester you judge as being 'bad' was himself molested as a child and became so disturbed by the event that the only way he knew how to deal with it was to reciprocate in his adult life.

Because we know no circumstances other than our own, how can it possibly be right to judge anyone else as 'good' or 'bad' (even child molesters)? In fact it is exactly nonjudgmental compassion that these people need most, and is our only chance if we want to help change them for the better.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by DiscoDan

Can you definitively say that, if you were in the child molester's shoes, that you would not behave in the exact same way?

Perhaps it is the case that the very same child molester you judge as being 'bad' was himself molested as a child and became so disturbed by the event that the only way he knew how to deal with it was to reciprocate in his adult life.

Because we know no circumstances other than our own, how can it possibly be right to judge anyone else as 'good' or 'bad' (even child molesters)? In fact it is exactly nonjudgmental compassion that these people need most, and is our only chance if we want to help change them for the better.

See? This is what I am talking about.

I think I can honestly say that I would not repeatedly rape little girls and bury them alive under my back steps under any circumstances. Perhaps that is because I am a woman, I dunno.

Listen, I understand WHY they are doing bad things. I understand that the end based thinking we now have isn't going to work. Punishing behavior is not nearly as effective as preventing it. Ideally, we should try to identify abused children and give them as much support and therapy as they need. Eventually, there wouldn't be any child molesting. Its the same thing with all crime. Happy, well adjusted people don't go around committing crimes for no reason. If we would start NOW thinking more about getting ahead of the motivators for dealing drugs and committing crimes we would be able to limit crime to a negligible problem within the next century (BTW, I read somewhere that it would be cheaper in the long run to do that than to house and punish all the criminals over the next 100 years). I get all that. I am a liberal Democrat, for god's sake. I still think raping and murdering kids is wrong. Call me crazy, but that is a judgement that no matter how I think about it, I can't stop having.

[rush23]

I guess most people strive to be non judgmental, myself included, but can't totally break themselves from what is essentially a human trait. I think one would have be a saint or God to have absolutely no judgment whatsoever.

From my own experience, I am working on being less judgmental. It's a process that takes time and believe me, it's not easy to reserve judgment - especially here in South Africa where crime is extremely high. How can one have a strong opinion about people including little children being kidnapped and murdered for no reason.

Well, if getting angry over senseless acts of violence is hampering my PD, then so be it - I'm just expressing my sadness and disappointment.

[DiscoDan]

Originally Posted by renie408

I think I can honestly say that I would not repeatedly rape little girls and bury them alive under my back steps under any circumstances. Perhaps that is because I am a woman, I dunno.

The point I am trying to make in my example is that, even though it appears as if people do terrible things for no valid reason, one always exists if you look deeply enough. It is not that child molesters or any of the various other types of criminals are just "bad people" and that's the way it is. These people become the way that they are because of terrible experiences that have happened to them in the past. Help these people get through those past experiences, and you will stop them from doing terrible things as well.

Listen, I understand WHY they are doing bad things. I understand that the end based thinking we now have isn't going to work. Punishing behavior is not nearly as effective as preventing it. Ideally, we should try to identify abused children and give them as much support and therapy as they need. Eventually, there wouldn't be any child molesting. Its the same thing with all crime. Happy, well adjusted people don't go around committing crimes for no reason. If we would start NOW thinking more about getting ahead of the motivators for dealing drugs and committing crimes we would be able to limit crime to a negligible problem within the next century (BTW, I read somewhere that it would be cheaper in the long run to do that than to house and punish all the criminals over the next 100 years). I get all that. I am a liberal Democrat, for god's sake. I still think raping and murdering kids is wrong. Call me crazy, but that is a judgement that no matter how I think about it, I can't stop having.

Why would you want to stop making such judgments? These types of judgments define your values, which in turn, define you as a person.

The only type of judgment that is destructive is when we feel that others are "bad people" because they hold different values from our own. For example, I personally feel that child molestation is one of the most atrocious things to exist in the world today. But how can I say that someone who commits such acts is a bad person, when I personally have not experienced the terrible events that must have occurred to form the values that define such a person?

I can't. I know that, if I were in his position, I would behave in the exact same way. So who am I to say that people who commit such acts are bad people?

[renie408]

Originally Posted by DiscoDan

The point I am trying to make in my example is that, even though it appears as if people do terrible things for no valid reason, one always exists if you look deeply enough. It is not that child molesters or any of the various other types of criminals are just "bad people" and that's the way it is. These people become the way that they are because of terrible experiences that have happened to them in the past. Help these people get through those past experiences, and you will stop them from doing terrible things as well.

Why would you want to stop making such judgments? These types of judgments define your values, which in turn, define you as a person.

The only type of judgment that is destructive is when we feel that others are "bad people" because they hold different values from our own. For example, I personally feel that child molestation is one of the most atrocious things to exist in the world today. But how can I say that someone who commits such acts is a bad person, when I personally have not experienced the terrible events that must have occurred to form the values that define such a person?

I can't. I know that, if I were in his position, I would behave in the exact same way. So who am I to say that people who commit such acts are bad people?

Actually, you can't 'know' that. There are a lot of people who are molested as children who don't grow up to molest other children. I don't say that other than to point out that whatever causes the schism that produces child molestation isn't as simple as being abused. I am NOT any kind of psychologist, but it has to be some combination of personality + circumstances. Also, there are people (this is a limited number, but it still happens) that were never molested as children who end up being child molesters. I sometimes wonder if some people are just broken. To me, 'broken' doesn't have that negative a connotation. If you're broken, you can't help it. It is just what you are. Broken people still have to be contained, though, particularly because some kinds of broken just can't seem to be fixed.

I think I have to learn to tell the difference between judgements with ego attached and just simple judgements. If you look at a child molester and say, "He is BAD. What a TERRIBLE person he is!!" and you are secretly pleased to observe this because in contrast you are so much BETTER...that is a judgement with ego attached. If you see a child molester and say, "Wow, he is really screwed up and needs to be put somewhere where he can't hurt kids." and you are really just thinking that kids need to be safe, that is a judgement without ego attached.

I think I have a hard time telling these two things apart when the subject is less obvious than child molesting.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by DiscoDan

The point I am trying to make in my example is that, even though it appears as if people do terrible things for no valid reason, one always exists if you look deeply enough. It is not that child molesters or any of the various other types of criminals are just "bad people" and that's the way it is. These people become the way that they are because of terrible experiences that have happened to them in the past. Help these people get through those past experiences, and you will stop them from doing terrible things as well.

I completely missed this part. I *think* that there are actually people who display aberrant behavior with no history of discernable abuse. But I have three German Shepherd dogs (stick with me, this story actually does make a point somewhere along the way). One of them we got from GSD rescue. She had been in four homes and we were told that if she didn't fit into the next home they tried, they were putting her down. They could not understand what the dog's problem was because all of the homes were experienced GSD owners with yards and appeared to be ideal situations. She had never been abused or really abandoned though she had been through several homes. Anyway, we have seventy acres so we said we would take her. They came and dropped that dog off and as soon as they opened the crate, it was gone. The first month she would run around the edges of the pastures. Every once in awhile we would look up and say, "Hey, there goes that dog." We set food out for her and pretty much just left her alone to figure it out for herself. The second month, she edged up near the barn and started to hang out within about thirty feet of me while I was working. One day, I was cleaning stalls and suddenly I realized that the dog was in the stall with me. I just ignored her and kept on working. After that, as soon as I would come up to the barn, she would stick right by me til I went to the house. Eventually, she let me pet her. Long story short...she is now our devoted indoor dog that will not go more than ten feet away from me. EVER. I love her now and she loves me. It is like having a dog-shadow. She is great with our kids and their friends, good with the cats, good with everything as long as she is never closed in and she can stay near me. Come to find out, her first couple of homes were with people who worked full time jobs. Apparently this dog has an unusually strong drive to attach herself to a single person and to 'guard' that person at all times. Her first two homes were not by any means abusive or 'bad' homes, but they drove this particular dog crazy.

Anyway, the moral to that story is that I wonder if some people are the same way. Their childhood circumstances are not by any normal measure 'abusive' or damaging, but for their particular personalities, it is devestating.

I wanted to throw in here that if I go out of town and leave Sasha with the girl that house sits for us, she has to have valium until I get back or she will drive our housesitter nuts with whining and constantly trying to escape out of the yard and is really aggressive to the other dogs. The vet says it is the stress of not being able to 'do her job'. When her life suits her, she goes back to being normal. She is just hyper-sensitive. I don't see why some people couldn't be the same way.

[bellbird]

That was a beautiful and related-to-the-topic about your dog, bless her .
The question: are all judgements bad ? seems of course an interesting controversy in itself. We assume generally judgements are 'good', so how can they be 'bad' when we know we are 'right' and all that jazz (as been discussed throroughly by other posters). I think that basically a 'judgement' is a 'definite' and unfortunately does not seem to leave room for nuances. Life is not black and white and therefore our 'judgements' (or assessments, I like that one Angela) shouldn't be either. But we know the ways of the (current ) world..... The stereo typing of 'child molesters is also a 'definite' and I like :

The point I am trying to make in my example is that, even though it appears as if people do terrible things for no valid reason, one always exists if you look deeply enough. It is not that child molesters or any of the various other types of criminals are just "bad people" and that's the way it is. These people become the way that they are because of terrible experiences that have happened to them in the past. Help these people get through those past experiences, and you will stop them from doing terrible things as well.

Sounds accurate to me. Good posts. (Oh dear, that's a 'judgement'... )
PS: What really weighs most likely are the consequences of a judgement and that's what we are really talking about instead of the 'judgements' themselves. It's like saying: this lady stole my handbag and >>she will go to jail or you let her off, or: the war in Irak is going from bad to worse and >>more soldiers are being send or not..., or: the neighbour has his volume up to loud on friday nights and he is an inconsiderate prick and>> you start arguing or you ask why he does it and just talk to him.
PS2: Someone told me there's always 3 things we can do with whatever situation: we can go forward, we can move back, or we can choose to stay where we are. That would apply to making assessments too and what we coose to do because of it.

[Angela]

Judgement is making a decision about a person in the form of a label -- good, bad, ugly, beautiful, worthy, worthless. When a decision is made like that, it cuts off all other possibilities within the judge and any action taken will be limited by that decision.

Assessment is looking at a person and realizing that just like you, he is much more than any one choice he's made in his life, and evaluating your information without assigning labels to it. This way, you create in each moment a new opportunity to make an intelligent and life-affirming choice of your own.

Judgement = limits the person doing the judging
Assessment = frees the person doing the assessing

[Dharma]

Judgment is structure the mind builds around neutral experiences. It builds a polarity, which is usually good/bad or right/wrong.

It strokes our ego to say we're on the good side and those 'others' are on the bad side. We work hard sometimes to stay on the good side. It could be being a good citizen, eating vegetarian, joining the PTA, being a volunteer firefighter, getting A's in school... the list goes on and on.

So what happens when we polarize an experience? Well we label it 'good', we are in reception of the experience; things are as they should be. If we label it 'bad', then we are in non-reception of it and say what's happening in the moment is not right, not appropriate, or not what I wanted.

But you created the experience (S-R model) and you're pushing it away. And the two ways we push it away are (1) I didn't create this and (2) this is not right or should not be happening. In effect you don't allow the experience to be received inside of self. So it will repeat until you receive it.

The issue that will repeat with judgment is things to set off your self-righteousness. And it can be a crime your read about, a person at the office who you always think is an idiot, someone that isn't courteous, etc. These events will throw you back into the reaction that is judgement. And you get to try again.

See if you can catch yourself in reaction and say "I am judging again, I'm not doing this anymore". And see what else is there in the moment. The reaction is there to hide something from yourself so you don't go deeper into the moment.

And what would be deeper? Hmmm.. Why am I showing me the experience of child molesters/rapists/rude people? Hmmmm.

[bellbird]

Excellent, in a nutshell: (Thanks for that Angela)

Judgement is making a decision about a person in the form of a label -- good, bad, ugly, beautiful, worthy, worthless. When a decision is made like that, it cuts off all other possibilities within the judge and any action taken will be limited by that decision.

Assessment is looking at a person and realizing that just like you, he is much more than any one choice he's made in his life, and evaluating your information without assigning labels to it. This way, you create in each moment a new opportunity to make an intelligent and life-affirming choice of your own.

Judgement = limits the person doing the judging
Assessment = frees the person doing the assessing

[Paul C]

This discussion of either positive(you're good) or negative worded judgments (you're bad) parallels how either compliments or insults can be equally empowering to the ego.

These two points I found to stand out a lot. Yet more aspects of the ego laid bare.

Originally Posted by Dharma

The reaction is there to hide something from yourself so you don't go deeper into the moment.

Originally Posted by Angela

Judgment = limits the person doing the judging
Assessment = frees the person doing the assessing

I am most grateful for this. Thank you.