Why applying I-M is BAD for your personal development

[Dani]

Lets see if 100 years from now the planet agrees with this abundance philosophy.

Do you really think most of the world's population had an abundance philosophy before now, or a poverty one?

A poverty mindset leads to:
People whording, and not sharing.
Exploiting for maximum gain and not for maximum balance.
Trying to take from others instead of creating yourself because you think there is only limited supply, and if others have it you don't.

hmmmm. I think the world will be more grateful for the generous, helpful, loving, sharing, protecting, giving abundance philosophy than it will be of the current one.

The only way for us to save the world is to get an abundance philosophy, so that we no longer fear having nothing so badly that we have to take as much as we can from everywhere that we can.

[judge45]

IM is happening every second of every day, people don't see it because they think the manifestations are just an ordinary life or an average circumstance.

You're creating all the time. You got yourself to this moment and you'll get yourself to the next.

People see IM as a way to get rich and it does work for that, but it's also a part of the LoA, which can be used to save a planet and a life if used in the right way.

I love the fact that LoA and IM can bring money (money can save a dying child and bring joy to others) into my life and it also helps make me be a better person.

IM is for every part of your life, but it's for your life first. Fix what you don't want in your life and then you'll have the time and money to help others.

HTH

Jeff

[Michi]

I find it very interesting that many people "percieve" that those people promoting and or teaching intention manifestation are promoting materialism and or just want money themselves.

How do you think a person who has lived in poverty for their whole life would feel if they were able to manifest home ownership and a means to maintain it, a car instead of the bus? Is this materialistic? How about that lonely man with a bad limp who may want to find someone he can share his life with who does not care about his limp leg? How about that person who has a "desire" to make organic, eco- toys for children and give them away? He may want to be able to fund his dream to create to give. Is he selfish and materialistic because he intends a million dollars to come into his life? Or maybe those children are materialistic.

About the whole idea of being satisfied with what you have theory... we may not be considering what others may have. Brain cancer, alcholism, abusive relations, poverty, depression, the list could go on...

Some of us are conditioned to judge what others are "really all about". The TRUTH is... you don't have ANY idea what any of the people who put out The Secret or any other book, dvd, cd, whatever on LOA or IM is "really all about". You barely know what yourself is really all about. Many people toggle between the idea that God or Spirit or whatever doesn't want us to "desire" yet it seems it is our very nature and purpose. Just the idea of trying to not desire is a desire. So why kill yourself trying to not be human?

How simple would life be if we would see Breath is to Humans as Water is to all Sea Creatures. Without it, we would cease to exist, thus it is God... Energy...God, so...... no hibbie jibbies, no forcing yourself not to feel, or judging everything... just plain old loving to breathe and feel good.

Further more, what would make me happy is to live in a beautiful clean house on the beach somewhere in the Caribbean. I would like to have beautiful, colorful furnishings and artwork. I certainly would enjoy family and friends around to make life enjoyable for our children and for eating and being social. I would also love for my businesses to be rather successful.

I am originally from the Caribbean and this is what I remember growing up. So, that I want to give it to my children, I would think, is only natural. Now, some of you may say, well, you are not talking about having millions of dollars and cars and what not. Well, I also am looking forward to having the income to support my lifestyle and to support my life's work. Oh, yeah, and I will occasionally be going to the spa sometimes and on various adventurous excursions. Again, does this sound materialistic? selfish? UN-humble?

Well, there are enough religions and philosophies to support the various cultures and differences in choices all over the globe. If you can't relate, don't choose to hate. Just click on a the topic you can relate to and show your love. I choose to manifest what would make me happy, FREEDOM. I choose to free myself from all confining thought patterns, philosophies or opinions.

Thank you, to those of you who wrote about the truth in manifesting your reality. Thank you to those of you who wrote about your dislike of it all. It all serves to give us more to think about and more chances to smile at our choices to be free.

Respect,
Michi

[Michi]

Originally Posted by Dani

Do you really think most of the world's population had an abundance philosophy before now, or a poverty one?

A poverty mindset leads to:
People whording, and not sharing.
Exploiting for maximum gain and not for maximum balance.
Trying to take from others instead of creating yourself because you think there is only limited supply, and if others have it you don't.

hmmmm. I think the world will be more grateful for the generous, helpful, loving, sharing, protecting, giving abundance philosophy than it will be of the current one.

The only way for us to save the world is to get an abundance philosophy, so that we no longer fear having nothing so badly that we have to take as much as we can from everywhere that we can.

Dani, you are inspiring..

I love reading what you have to share,

Mahalo,
Michi

[Dani]

Thanks back for softening my rather hardline stance.

You put what I said in much more friendly terms.

You are right that religion has played a huge part in our present conditioning.

Western society, even the non Christians, are still brought up with Christian ideals on lots of things, it is part of our culture, laws and treatment of each other.

A lot of Christian fundamental beliefs stem from the idea that poverty is holy and somehow divine, and wealth is unholy and evil.

That depriving yourself makes you better than enjoying yourself.

Part of this I think comes from how people in most religious mythology had scarce few physical posessions, however as I pointed out above, these people were far from poor or in poverty. They lived in simple abundance, completely provided for.

But it was the lack of possessions that was focussed on. Not the ubundance they actually had in their lives where their needs were fully catered for.

Jesus never had to shake a tin cup on the side of the road for a loaf of bread, and as far as I can recall Moses didn't have a habit of scavenging through garbage dumps for food. Etc. etc.

The problem that most religions made was they put the effects before the cause and thought they were the cause.

e.g. Jesus had few possesions and was divine = Having no possession makes you divine

But what if it's the other way around?

When you become divine you no longer feel the need for possessions?

To take away the possessions before you are divine is just resiting your nature and, I feel, making it harder to become divine because you are forcing yourself into something that you don't want to do which creates inner turmoil.

To deprive yourself before you are ready is like taking your scuba mask off before you reach the surface. You don't start breathing, you drown.

Case in point 2 sex and christianity. Abstinance is certainly doing the Catholic Priests a lot of favours for their divinity... Why don't other religions have this as much of a problem? Oh that's right their ministers are usually allowed to marry and have lovers!

Can't force divinity on yourself is the bottom line.

But that is what most of culture is geared to. Depriving ourselves is somehow seen as more noble than a having a good life.

Seriously though what is the use of living if you are going to deny yourself everything that the world has to offer? Why keep the ferrari if you are never going to drive it? Why spend life trying to avoid and resist 'temptation' and instead just cap yourself now to make the whole process a heck of a lot shorter and less painful.

If you refuse to do more than the absolute minimum with your life, you are quite frankly an ungrateful git.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Michi

I find it very interesting that many people "percieve" that those people promoting and or teaching intention manifestation are promoting materialism and or just want money themselves.

Well, if you believe this is only a matter of perception, I invite you to browse through all threads of this forum since November. Then come back and tell us how many threads you have found where people use I-M for other than materialistic purposes.

[JHL]

To take away the possessions before you are divine is just resiting your nature and, I feel, making it harder to become divine because you are forcing yourself into something that you don't want to do which creates inner turmoil.

So you're saying we should give in to all our earthly desires until some point we reach some kind of enlightment? Well you'd be mightily gratified to learn that a lot of people in America agree with you! In America right now, approximately 70% of the population is either obese or overweight. Are you now going to argue that being obese is far better for these people than to suffer some inner turmoil by forcing themselves to control their desire for food?

Why spend life trying to avoid and resist 'temptation' and instead just cap yourself now to make the whole process a heck of a lot shorter and less painful.

Why? Well because one finds that avoiding temptation leads to healthy body, mind and soul, and, generally, a more pleasant and meaningful existence. So why would I want to "cap myself"?

If you refuse to do more than the absolute minimum with your life, you are quite frankly an ungrateful git.

I think you'll find that the people arguing against LOA tend to be the people who are most supportive of taking ACTION in their lives. And people who take action generally tend to make quite a bit of their lives.

And, in conclusion, a final quote, if I may: "There, but for the Grace of God, go I". This means that if you were born in anyone else's shoes - you would be that person, and you would do no better than they did. Thus do we learn not to judge others - even if we do think they are a "git".

[cordis]

Great discussion, however there appears to be missing very important ingredient, namely the simple fact that everyone alive is doing I-M either consciously or unconsciously. Recent discoveries in Quantum Physics prove this. The simple act of observation will change the physical properties of matter. A short descriptive video of the experiment is here; YouTube - Animated Quantum Video

"Thoughts are Things", Thoughts are energy in its purest form, so we are all CREATORS, not just creatures. What you choose to create is entirely an individual CHOICE. We all manifest our thoughts and whether or not you do it intentionally or not doesn’t change this fact.

Duality is an illusion; its function is descriptive only allow me to tell a true story to illustrate;

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has had with God, The Almighty.

He asks one of his new Muslim students to stand and.....

Professor: You are a Muslim, aren't you, son?

Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So you believe in God?

Student: Absolutely, sir.

Prof: Is God good?

Student: Sure.

Prof: Is God all-powerful?

Student: Yes.

Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?

(Student is silent.)

Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fellow. Is God good?

Student: Yes.

Prof: Is Satan good?

Student: No.

Prof: Where does Satan come from?

Student: From...God...

Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student: Yes.

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?

Student: Yes.

Prof: So who created evil?

(Student does not answer.)

Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?

Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?

(Student has no answer.)

Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?

Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

Student: No , sir.

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

Student: Yes.

Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?

Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Prof: Yes.

Student: And is there such a thing as cold?

Prof: Yes.

Student: No sir. There isn't. (The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.) Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 459 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.

Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

Student: You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?

Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir? (The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

(The class is in uproar.)

Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?

(The class breaks out into laughter.)

Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it?.....No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)

Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Student: That is it sir. The link between man & God is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

[Shaden]

Good post hashlie. An intelligent take on faith within religion. Quite refreshing indeed

[Acting Like Godot]

JHL and Frans, what is it really, that troubles you so much about LOA?

If you care so much about spiritual development, why don't you use it for spiritual development? I certainly think that LOA could be used for such a purpose.

If you disdain materialism, why is it that you disdain LOA? It is after all a tool. There are plenty of people in the world who are highly materialistic anyway, and have never heard of LOA.

Why does the commercial success of "The Secret" upset you? You should analyse your feelings. You may make some surprising discoveries.

Consider the following scenarios:

1. Suppose "The Secret" had not had any mass appeal. Only a small number of people (eg 500 in the whole world) were intensely interested in it. They tried it out and achieved amazing results, and came to this forum to talk about it. Meanwhile Rhonda decided to retire to a scenic, tranquil island in the tropics and live in blissful obscurity for the rest of her life. Would it make you feel much, much better about LOA, that the makers of "The Secret" didn't profit from it?

2. Suppose Rhonda now decides to do a Warren Buffett, and donate large chunks of her profits from "The Secret", to charity. She then says that money is not that important to her and she would rather spend the rest of her life helping starving children in Africa. Would this make you make you feel much, much better about LOA?

3. Suppose the movie (which I haven't watched, btw) ended on a different note. There is an additional ten minutes where the people talk seriously about the potential of LOA to make the world a better place. Eg save the whales; help the poor; make society a kinder and more compassionate place; end wars. The movie concludes by encouraging everyone to use LOA to make the world a better place. Would this make you make you feel much, much better about LOA?

Ask yourself that ......

Also, I don't think you should worry too much about people just sitting around thinking all day long and doing nothing. In my own experience, if you do IM properly, in fact you will become highly motivated to take action. In that sense, it's no different from the visualisation exercises that professional sportsmen or fitness buffs use all the time. Once you start doing some serious visualising about working out in the gym and pumping iron, you will soon feel a strong urge to run off to work out in the gym and pump iron.

[rush23]

I think some people will find fault with LoA simply because it's easier to be sceptical than just accept. Like with religion or rather spirituality, sceptics would rather nitpick than just accept that not everything can be explained or understood.

It's also ego-driven because they somehow feel important or intellectually superior to those who operate on faith alone. Sure, it's important to question. It's through questioning that we learn and grow, but isn't it just easier to let go at a certain point?

If everyone had to question and try to comprehend everything in life, there wouldn't be any time left for the truly important things in life, like love and joy.

As for the materialism argument, I think it's a case of holier-than-thou. Wherever the link between poverty and spirituality came from, it is warped. I don't believe that we would be given the keys to abundance without being able to enjoy it. People who believe it is better to be poor usually just stand on their soapboxes and preach about the virtues of poverty. It's the rich who give their money away to help end poverty and suffering. It not saying all rich people are generous, but a lot are. What are the soapbox preachers doing except preach?

It's not really money than people want or even the things that money can buy, but rather the emotions and feelings that those things bring. My ultimate goal is FREEDOM - the freedom to do what I want, when I want, where I want. Money is the currency for the freedom I want in this life.

That's my opinion.

[JHL]

JHL and Frans, what is it really, that troubles you so much about LOA?

If you care so much about spiritual development, why don't you use it for spiritual development? I certainly think that LOA could be used for such a purpose.

Hey ALG, glad to see you're still here for a bit! I gave an honest appraisal of why I have a problem with LOA (or rather how it is being marketed) in a previous post, where I discussed the effect of my own projections.

I think there's also a huge disconnect in what I'm saying and what people think I am saying - the curse of the written word, perhaps.

So to clarify it once and for all:

I believe fully in LOA
I believe it can be used for great spiritual purposes
I certainly dont believe in self-deprivation or poverty!
I do believe that materialism is undesirable

And, finally,

my actual problem with LOA is that, for most people, it plugs directly into their desire for materialism, and is being carefully marketed to do just that. I could quote tag lines of the covers of Wayne Dyer books etc to support my case - but basically "How to get whatever you want!" encapsulates this in general. And my basic argument is that I believe this (very effective!) marketing approach sends the wrong signals about LOA.

LOA can be a powerful force for good. But not when it is sold on that basis. Not when people dont even understand what it is they really want, or why. As I said in an earlier post - it makes sense for people to start there.

In conclusion, once again, my whole irritation with this topic stems from a projection of my own frustrated efforts to curb my own lust for materialism and to get myself to focus on more meaningful things. I'm arguing here not because I feel "holier-than-thou" as one poster would have it, rather the reverse is true. Through this discussion the only person I am trying to win over, is myself.

I see myself through your responses - you are my mirror and I am yours. So thank you for being my teacher, and I hope in some way I have been yours.

[Dani]

Originally Posted by JHL

So you're saying we should give in to all our earthly desires until some point we reach some kind of enlightment? Well you'd be mightily gratified to learn that a lot of people in America agree with you! In America right now, approximately 70% of the population is either obese or overweight. Are you now going to argue that being obese is far better for these people than to suffer some inner turmoil by forcing themselves to control their desire for food?



Why? Well because one finds that avoiding temptation leads to healthy body, mind and soul, and, generally, a more pleasant and meaningful existence. So why would I want to "cap myself"?



I think you'll find that the people arguing against LOA tend to be the people who are most supportive of taking ACTION in their lives. And people who take action generally tend to make quite a bit of their lives.

And, in conclusion, a final quote, if I may: "There, but for the Grace of God, go I". This means that if you were born in anyone else's shoes - you would be that person, and you would do no better than they did. Thus do we learn not to judge others - even if we do think they are a "git".

oh touche! I think I hit a sore point.

Actually, to put it back into context, I think you should look for enlignment in areas other than by directly depriving yourself.

Saying enlightenment doesn't come from deprivation doesn't mean I am endorsing excessive consumption. I am endorsing embracing what the world has to give, takign what you need for a fulfilling life and no more, meanwhile contributing to help others live a fulfilling life.

Just because gorging yourself stupid doesn't make you holy, doesn't mean that starving yourself automatically does.

I also think you will find that people who truly understand LoA or at least try to, also promote action.

I have however in my own life had LoA force me into action by taking away from me the things that were stopping me from taking action. e.g. Job, house, car etc.

For your final quote, I know the quote. The git comment was out of line and thanks for pulling me on it. I was a bit cranky at the time I wrote it.

You are right, but just remember it yourself, lest ye start to judge.

If you are so pro-action, please enlighten us all to some of the action you have taken recently towards reducing this terrible materialistic world that you are so uptight about.

If the secret is such bad medicine why aren't you out there making some good medicine for people instead of just yelling at strangers on a forum?

[JHL]

If you are so pro-action, please enlighten us all to some of the action you have taken recently towards reducing this terrible materialistic world that you are so uptight about.

Please consider my last post again - in it you will notice that my frustrations were openly and admittedly directed at no-one but myself. It is myself that I am trying to change, not anyone else. It is only myself that I judge.

If the secret is such bad medicine why aren't you out there making some good medicine for people instead of just yelling at strangers on a forum?

Yelling? YELLING?? Harumph. You have offended my sensibilities. Wait a minute...I dont have any. But if I did, you would have offended them. And furthermore, sir, I most certainly do provide good medicine for the people in my life. Why, with my winning charm and sunny disposition I am an absolute joy and delight to be around! At least thats what my mother told me...once..er, long ago.

The problem is clear. I'm too spiritual for this thread. sniff.

[And with a swish of his cape, JHL exits]

[Michi]

Originally Posted by JHL

In conclusion, once again, my whole irritation with this topic stems from a projection of my own frustrated efforts to curb my own lust for materialism and to get myself to focus on more meaningful things. I'm arguing here not because I feel "holier-than-thou" as one poster would have it, rather the reverse is true. Through this discussion the only person I am trying to win over, is myself.

I know what that feeling is like. I felt this when I was pursuing Hinduism and also Rastafarianism as spiritual practices. What I found was self loathing instead. I found like I was forever going to be a slave to not being good enough for these God images that these religions created. Should I give up my family and let my hair grow and forsake new clothes and keep on sleeping on the floor. Apparently, desire is linked to what keeps us from achieving Nirvana. So, we would spend our days craving for freedom from craving.

Now, don't get me wrong, I feel like if it works for some people and they feel good about leaving their families to pursue God (as if God does not exist in their families) by all means go on. Also, if you are content to live in poverty then I believe you should share with the forum what beauty you find in scavenging, because maybe that is what my problem is. HA HA HA...

Honestly, I do feel what you might be going through and I sense that you want to feel free from your attatchments or materialism. Well, first of all, according to the law of attraction, which is going on whether you like it or not, you are attracting more of the same thought process just by focusing on your disdain for materialism... swallow that.....

Now, consider this...

"Material" means by definition.. "Of, relating to, or composed of matter. "

That would mean everything, including yourself, ourselves, food, the keyboard, the energy matter that exists in the interaction between those of us on this forum.


"Materialism" means by definition.. "The theory or attitude that physical well-being and worldly possessions constitute the greatest good and highest value in life. "

Let's consider that according to the definition of "matter", that materialism should encompass the full essence of all that is matter.
So maybe more accurately the definition would be.. "The theory or attitude that whole and complete well being of the self and all it's senses internally and externally expressive constitute the greatest good and highest value in life."

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery. None but ourselves can free our minds." - Haile Selassie I, Emperor of Ethiopia

You are free to desire a nice car as long as you don't desire to run someone over with it.
Just as you get that dependable car you have been wanting (after you stop hating yourself for wanting it), you may have the opportunity to help someone else by taking them grocery shopping every Sunday or something.

I challenge you to take one day and enjoy wanting what you want to the utmost. A new pair of jogging shoes. A significant other with a great smile. An opportunity to make a group of people laugh. A day at a waterpark with the kids from your neighborhood, your treat. A large enough house to invite your aging mom to stay with you. These are ALL "materialistic" things that "matter" to you. So, have fun with your day of freedom. And while your at it.... I'll be creating a million dollar idea that will help millions... Create yourself as a wonderful person and whatever you create will be for the good of all around.

Mahalo

A note to JHL, please tell me what is your hobby, gift, talent or what you absolutely enjoy doing... I am curious.

[JHL]

Originally Posted by Michi

I challenge you to take one day and enjoy wanting what you want to the utmost. A new pair of jogging shoes. A significant other with a great smile. An opportunity to make a group of people laugh. A day at a waterpark with the kids from your neighborhood, your treat. A large enough house to invite your aging mom to stay with you. These are ALL "materialistic" things that "matter" to you. So, have fun with your day of freedom. And while your at it.... I'll be creating a million dollar idea that will help millions... Create yourself as a wonderful person and whatever you create will be for the good of all around.

Mahalo

A note to JHL, please tell me what is your hobby, gift, talent or what you absolutely enjoy doing... I am curious.

Thanks for your post Michi, I feel like you really connected with where I'm coming from. Your post has facilitated me looking deeper into myself to try understand better what it is I'm trying to express.

Underlying everything I have written is the feeling that I have strayed from my true nature. I am actually disconnected from myself. Without sounding dramatic, I only have a vague conception of who I am, or what I'm meant to be doing. I feel and know this palpably, and perhaps that why I feel so provoked when I see people talking about things that I feel would only draw a person further away from their true nature.

In lieu of being my true self, I live behind a mask that has functioned rather well in the world. I have achieved good commercial success, I come across as being very competent and capable etc. Yet inside I feel like an imposter and cant believe how I've managed to 'fool' everyone. However the cracks have started to show, as they inevitably must, and I've realised the need to 'find myself' before the cracks manifest as ill-health. (Mentally, they are already very apparent). But I digress.

To answer your question, I think I have some writing ability and certainly enjoy the art in certain contexts. That is what brings me joy - yet is the one thing I spend very little time doing. Whoever said we are our own worst enemies should be congratulated for being so right - and then slapped with a frozen haddock.

Thanks again for your post Michi, it really made me think.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by JHL

In lieu of being my true self, I live behind a mask that has functioned rather well in the world. I have achieved good commercial success, I come across as being very competent and capable etc. Yet inside I feel like an imposter and cant believe how I've managed to 'fool' everyone. However the cracks have started to show, as they inevitably must, and I've realised the need to 'find myself' before the cracks manifest as ill-health. (Mentally, they are already very apparent).

I really appreciate the honesty in this post. I think I know how you feel. But I think we can all be so hard on ourselves. If you appear competent, you probably are and even more so in the face of inner turmoil. I have spent a lot of my life thinking I was not a nice person. It is left over from the way my parents talked to me when I was little. It is kind of sad that a 43 year old woman is still paying for being told she was bad when she was five, but there you go. Anyway, I have struggled with a negative self-view for a long time. Not too long ago, I was telling a friend how mean spirited I am. She looked at me like I had lost my mind and told me that she didn't know anybody else that did as much for people, was as generous with their time and meager resources, or thought about how to help out more than I did. I was uncomfortable with being told this and I said, "Well, I think mean things and I am jealous sometimes and I am selfish a lot of times." She said, "That doesn't make you BAD, that makes you HUMAN."

The moral to that is that maybe we should learn to love and respect ourselves as much as the people around us love and respect us. I am finally getting around to being able to say that I am a good and deserving person. Oddly enough, a lot of 'bad' things (like jealousy and selfishness) that I used to feel are diminishing. I think it is because they were rooted in my bad feelings about myself. As I learn to love myself warts and all, the warts seem to be going away.

You really ARE a good and competent person. You deserve the things you desire, including peace and confidence. I think that you are getting closer to the truth now than you were with your first post. One thing studying the LOA has taught me is to try to get to the root of my feelings. If you are feeling bad, ask yourself, "What do I want?" Almost always, what you are saying and what you REALLY want are two WAY different things. I say I want money. What I really want is to feel safe and I identify that with money.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by renie408

You really ARE a good and competent person.

Even if you're not, you can IM yourself into becoming so.

[JHL]

Originally Posted by renie408

She said, "That doesn't make you BAD, that makes you HUMAN."

The moral to that is that maybe we should learn to love and respect ourselves as much as the people around us love and respect us. I am finally getting around to being able to say that I am a good and deserving person. Oddly enough, a lot of 'bad' things (like jealousy and selfishness) that I used to feel are diminishing. I think it is because they were rooted in my bad feelings about myself. As I learn to love myself warts and all, the warts seem to be going away.

Thanks for your post renie, I really appreciate your honesty and candour. It sounds like you're also very hard on yourself but that you've come a long way in accepting yourself. And isnt it amazing what a relief it is to hear that its OK to be human! A friend of mine once said that same thing to me and was like they had uttered a startling truth. In the frenzied mess that is my self-talk, I had never considered the fact its actually ok to not be perfect. This insight has gone a long way to helping me accept myself.

Anyway I also just wanted to say how good it feels to communicate with you at this level of openness and sincerity. Normally, for me, I'm either on the defensive or the attack. This feels infinitely better. Thanks for your openness.

[renie408]

JHL, it is so funny that you said that was your reaction to being called 'human'. I did the same thing! I thought that my 'badness' was so evident that everyone saw the same things I did. It took me awhile to figure out that I had a skewed view of the total picture of 'me'. It was like when I was little and I would sit close enough to the TV to see that the picture was really made of little dots of color. If you get hung up on the dots, you can't see the picture the dots make.

And, for whatever reason, it always seems like humans focus on the negative. I know this from teaching riding lessons. If someone falls off ONCE, it will erase the memory for them of all of the rides they had where they didn't fall off. They forget how to respect themselves for the really competent riders they are. Its like having ONE flawed experience makes them irrevocably flawed.

I also find it refreshing and a relief to be able to discuss such things with others in a candid and open manner. I have also had a really hard time with being defensive and it has crippled many of my relationships and business opportunities. This is another thing I am working hard on. I think it also stems from not loving myself, the feelings of disrespect I have had for myself and assuming that everyone feels the same way about me. Boy, if I didn't want to bore everybody here stiff I could tell you about a lifetime spent trying to please others for that instant of praise and how resentful and hurt I would get if I didn't get my pat on the head. I am VERY SLOWLY coming to where I praise myself and need it less from others. It allows me to act more naturally and more in my own interests. It also allows me to take chances and have less fear of failure...and of success. The changes that have come to me emotionally from studying LOA and I/M are, in themselves, rewards which outweigh our increased income.

Anyway, good luck to you. Building ourselves should always be a work in progress. Love yourself. We do.

[Dani]

Originally Posted by renie408

I really appreciate the honesty in this post. I think I know how you feel. But I think we can all be so hard on ourselves. If you appear competent, you probably are and even more so in the face of inner turmoil. I have spent a lot of my life thinking I was not a nice person. It is left over from the way my parents talked to me when I was little. It is kind of sad that a 43 year old woman is still paying for being told she was bad when she was five, but there you go. Anyway, I have struggled with a negative self-view for a long time. Not too long ago, I was telling a friend how mean spirited I am. She looked at me like I had lost my mind and told me that she didn't know anybody else that did as much for people, was as generous with their time and meager resources, or thought about how to help out more than I did. I was uncomfortable with being told this and I said, "Well, I think mean things and I am jealous sometimes and I am selfish a lot of times." She said, "That doesn't make you BAD, that makes you HUMAN."

The moral to that is that maybe we should learn to love and respect ourselves as much as the people around us love and respect us. I am finally getting around to being able to say that I am a good and deserving person. Oddly enough, a lot of 'bad' things (like jealousy and selfishness) that I used to feel are diminishing. I think it is because they were rooted in my bad feelings about myself. As I learn to love myself warts and all, the warts seem to be going away.

You really ARE a good and competent person. You deserve the things you desire, including peace and confidence. I think that you are getting closer to the truth now than you were with your first post. One thing studying the LOA has taught me is to try to get to the root of my feelings. If you are feeling bad, ask yourself, "What do I want?" Almost always, what you are saying and what you REALLY want are two WAY different things. I say I want money. What I really want is to feel safe and I identify that with money.

*claps* Great post R.

I was talking through this with some of my clients recently, they all set money goals when did our goal building. I dug deeper and found that none of them actually wanted 'money' they all wanted things that they need money to do/get

One wanted to spend more time with his baby son
One wanted to start a school for handicapped children
One wanted to quit his job and start a business as a physical trainer
and so on.

I asked them all if they had those things would they need the amount of money they specified?

They all unanimously said no. Most people don't want money. They do want what money can give them. Quality of life.

Naturally they re-wrote all their goals in a hurry.

JHL - You are perfect, just as you are. There has only ever been one you, and there only ever will be one you.

Rejoice in that. Be proud of who you are. Don't compare yourself to others, because they aren't you, so its not a fair comparison!

You aren't alone with the mask. Almost the entirety of society lives with a series of masks for different situations.

e.g. Myself
Daniel the coach
Dani The computer programmer geek
Social Dan (with a long a - A can of coke)
Dani with the boys.
Computer Gamer Danayel
My boyfriend/lover mask - Dan (with a short a - I can do it)
My mask for my family - Danno
etc.

They even different names!

We all have them, whether we realise it or not. Because people act different when they are in different situations. I am slowly reducing the difference in my masks and getting more to my real self but it's a touch trip, don't beat yourself up over it.

Because it only makes it harder to reconcile yourself if you are fighting yourself.

[wisped]

Originally Posted by renie408

I have also had a really hard time with being defensive and it has crippled many of my relationships and business opportunities. This is another thing I am working hard on. I think it also stems from not loving myself, the feelings of disrespect I have had for myself and assuming that everyone feels the same way about me. Boy, if I didn't want to bore everybody here stiff I could tell you about a lifetime spent trying to please others for that instant of praise and how resentful and hurt I would get if I didn't get my pat on the head. I am VERY SLOWLY coming to where I praise myself and need it less from others. It allows me to act more naturally and more in my own interests. It also allows me to take chances and have less fear of failure...and of success. The changes that have come to me emotionally from studying LOA and I/M are, in themselves, rewards which outweigh our increased income.

The truth of this really smacked me in the head, renie. Thank you for turning this thread into such a great discussion - it's been a pleasure to read.

Wendy