Intention Manifestation or Just Wishful Thinking

[Paul C]

Originally Posted by JJH

It might be useful to think of an intention like this:

Here's where it gets interesting: the thinker may carry out the action, or the action(s) may be carried out by others.

I really liked the way this part was said, it furthered my understanding of Intention-Manifestation. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

A. Einstein

Brilliant.

[escapee]

I know for sure that having a negative mindset or being stressed out severe ly weaken a person immune system . I believe this isnt something new in the scientific community .

Immune system and emotion

So if you get caught on any major illness , you may want to spend most of your time laughing and thinking that you are already healed ( yeah sound like a lie ), at the same time working on natural/non-invasive conventional therapies to further expedite the healing process.

Also, positive thinking is perhaps the most important ingredients with respect to personal or group achievement, . When you analyse Japan and other less developed nations . You know there is a huge difference in their respective mindset. One focuses on "can" or "must do" or "must improve - kaizen" , another focuses on "maybe" or some other lame excuses . That alone makes the difference in their progress and advancement.

Whether you can or cannot do, either way you are right .

I cant remember who said it ..... surely there is universal/boliogical/physics law that one must abide such as we cant possibly manifest a wing from our body , can we ? (evolution?)

[Andrew Lwe]

Radical,

Touch your left hand with your right hand.
Now think how you did this. It's pure magic, isn't it? No science will give you good explanation how you managed to move your hand. We all know that electric impulses move our muscles etc.,etc.,etc., but how do these impulses appear in the first place? It's not software of your brain because you, yourself, consciously manifested this and you changed the surrounding reality.
I don't see any difference between manifesting your hand to move or manifesting more money into your life. It's the same act of consciousness that changes the reality. It's the same magic that cannot be explained by science.
If you believe you can move your hand (I guess most of us do) you will be able to move your hand. If you believe you can manifest everything into your life (I guess most of us don't), you will be able to.

[eternomi]

I'll toss in my 2c too.
Well I already did actually in the following thread:

Law of Attraction

But to make a long story short, "intention-manifestation"and "subjective reality" are not wishful thinking, but they are not creation either... at least not in the "out of thin air" kinda sense.

If you want the details, please read my comments in the other thread.

[Wreck]

I just have to say that this is a most excellent thread. Many "flaws" in IM/LoA that I myself have thought about have been pointed out.

I spoke with my brother (who's working on his PhD in philosophy) about subjective reality, and that while it's part of elementary philosophy, it's pretty well established that reality is objective, not subjective. You can all say that I perceive my reality is objective because I believe it to be, and that's fine. However, I do find subjective reality a very handy tool for viewing the world.

I took a philosophy of religion class about 15 years ago (goodness, it's been that long now ?!?!) and there were some premises that people generally accepted when talking about God (or whatever name you want to use for him/it). I wish I could remember what it was about, and perhaps I should look it up. But it basically was along the lines of "you can't make a square circle." Perhaps this line of thinking needs to be applied to IM/LoA?

What I'm getting at is, is someone growing wings along the same lines as making a square circle? What ARE the limits to IM? And while it very well may be that the limits to IM are what you believe them to be, I find it a weak argument. If the LoA/IM is Truth, and I believe it to be, there should be some stronger arguments for these supposed exceptions that have been brought up.

Take for example the creation of the universe. If the universe was created by the Universal Spirit, why did it take billions of years? Why couldn't have taken 7 days as those who take a very literal interpretation of the bible claim? Maybe it's just that some things take as long as they take to manifest, that attracting the right synchronicities doesn't always happen instantaneously. But when we start putting limits on how long we think it should take, or how we think it should come about, we're making it take that much longer because it will take the universe that much longer to align everything according to our standards.

And what about intending generalities instead of specifics? Intending the winning lottery numbers/ticket vs. intending a certain amount of wealth. Intending a mate with certain qualities and characteristics vs. intending a specific person as you mate. Intending a certain type of job vs. intending that specific job. There has to be something with intentions that create harmony and intentions that create disharmony.

Or to backtrack a little, the idea that thought can be completely creative. If our thought doesn't have the ability to be creative, wouldn't it mean that we can only react to things? That we can't really be held accountable for our actions because we had no choice but to react a given way to a specific cause? But if we do have the ability to make a completely creative choice from our own will, that we are not only creating the through, but that thought is starting a whole chain of cause and effect? If this is true, then our thoughts are creating our realities - our intentions are being made manifest.

I've just kind of rambled, and I'm not exactly sure what my point is, but I do see this all as being somehow related. Maybe someone can make since of my comments, but I've got work to do

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Wreck

Take for example the creation of the universe. If the universe was created by the Universal Spirit, why did it take billions of years? Why couldn't have taken 7 days as those who take a very literal interpretation of the bible claim?

I think the Universe was created instantly, just development took some time.(billions of years...)

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by Erki

I think the Universe was created instantly, just development took some time.(billions of years...)

Poorly worded on my part - I agree.

[Cptn Willard]

Originally Posted by Andrew Lwe

Radical,

Touch your left hand with your right hand.
Now think how you did this. It's pure magic, isn't it? No science will give you good explanation how you managed to move your hand. We all know that electric impulses move our muscles etc.,etc.,etc.,

The text "touch your left hand" is displayed on my screen.
My eyes capture the light and transform it into an electrical signal.
This electrical signal enters the complex network of nerve cells which is my brain.
After some processing, an electrical impulse is sent to a muscle.
My hand moves.

Where does the impulse comes from? It is electricity generated in my body in reaction to another electrical signal.

What is so wrong with the objective explanation?

[KeithHandy]

Originally Posted by Wreck

And what about intending generalities instead of specifics? Intending the winning lottery numbers/ticket vs. intending a certain amount of wealth. Intending a mate with certain qualities and characteristics vs. intending a specific person as you mate. Intending a certain type of job vs. intending that specific job. There has to be something with intentions that create harmony and intentions that create disharmony.

This could and should be a thread in itself. And so it is!

[Radical]

I'm still not convinced.

From Wikipedia:

Wishful thinking is the formation of beliefs and making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing to evidence or rationality.

The Law of Attraction is an idea that is widespread in New Thought philosophy. It posits that a mental disposition will attract equivalent external circumstances and events.

Manifesting is a term often used in New Thought and New Age circles to refer to the belief that one can by force of will, desire, and focused energy, make something come true on the physical level. For example, the Indian guru Sathya Sai Baba is famous for allegedly manifesting objects out of thin air.



I have ordered a copy of The Secret on DVD, hopefully that will help further my understanding.

[Ati]

Another great thread here!

Radical, thank you for your thinking and questioning as well as your open- minded responses to other peoples' posts. You are making it real clear, in my opinion, that even if you don't fully agree with what someone has said, you have looked at what they've said, you've thought about it carefully, and you can pick out the parts that do make sense. You've really stimulated some good discussion here!

In a way, this reminds me of some differences between people's approaches to conventional religions. Some folks seem to really want to get down to the nitty gritty and prove something is true, based on ancient or more recent writings, and other folks want to jump right in and experience the potentials of their spirituality, leaving the details not as distinctly defined. So the first group might become very scholarly and knowledgeable about a religion's text, traditional and current thinking, devoting quite a bit of their spiritual time on this. The second group might spend their spiritual time in prayer, meditation and doing whatever they are moved to do in order to feel confident that they are living their religion the way they feel best expresses their spiritual values.

It may well be that the difference lies primarily in people's personalities, experiences or environments. Although I think the second way I described is probably a more immediate or direct approach, I think the first way, for the truly devout/interested/motivated/dedicated will work just as well. I think that eventually the folks who feel they need to intellectually know everything first will be led to personal spiritual experience through their seeking of intellectual understanding. And the second group will probably be led to seeking more textual or intellectual knowledge through their more experientially based spiritual activities.


One thing I'd want to suggest to you, in full respect for your approach, which I see as highly intellectually accountable, a very fine thing there, is to find a way you can actually try some of this. Not in ways like flying or manifesting a million dollars by Sunday--rather in ways that are meaningful to you in every day life as it is for you right now-----say, something within your own routines, relationships, environment. I'm not suggesting that you put off or stop your thinking abt this the way you are. I'm rather suggesting that maybe some more personal experience, in small ways, might lead your intellectual quest into some interesting areas.

(Someone came up with an analogy regarding driving a car. Especially these days, we surely don't know exactly how when we turn the key in the ignition, put the car into gear, back out of a parking spot, head out to the highway and drive 30 miles, the whole thing happens and we get there, that motor starts, the power train, transmission, steering and all the rest work and we get there. That doesn't mean it's not a smart idea to know as much as we can about our own vehicles, and it's sure good that some folks decide to become educated as mechanics, but we don't have to know the details of auto mechanics to get where we are going...)

I'd be most interested in hearing of your experiences if you should try this.. as well as your further intellectual explorations....As I see from this and other forums, I am quite sure that others will also.

All best

Ati

[elimisteve]

Just so everyone knows, in this thread, we're trying to change the world.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Cptn Willard

The text "touch your left hand" is displayed on my screen.
My eyes capture the light and transform it into an electrical signal.
This electrical signal enters the complex network of nerve cells which is my brain.
After some processing, an electrical impulse is sent to a muscle.
My hand moves.

Where does the impulse comes from? It is electricity generated in my body in reaction to another electrical signal.

What is so wrong with the objective explanation?

It would mean that the only reason you "touched your left hand" is because the screen said so. In other words, the person who wrote "touch your left hand" caused you to touch your hand indirectly by writing the words, and then by the light impulses reaching your eyes it caused your brain to do what it perceived. This works fine if we are robots and if 1,000 read "touch your left hand" and they "touch their left hand", but what about people like me who read the message, interpreted it and DIDN'T touch my left hand. Somehow the cause/effect of the situation was interrupted. My consciousness DECIDED whether I wanted to touch my hand or not. *IT* decided what it wanted to do and thus CREATED (out of thin air) the cause that caused my arm to move via electrical impulses.

The only other explanation is pre-determinism where everything is just unfolding exactly as it was decided at the big bang and there is no choice by anyone at any point in time because we are just caught in the middle of an endless CAUSE > EFFECT chain.

[Markus74]

I agree with the first poster. You cannot manifest anything you want. This whole thing sounds more like wishful, or positive, thinking. Of course that helps already a lot and you can achieve huge things by using it!

But you cannot just wish and manifest things from your rocking chair. You still have to work or create.

[Acting Like Godot]

If LOA does not work, I think it should die a natural death quite quickly.

For example, let's say I hear about LOA for the first time and I try it out. Nothing happens. I read further articles, and they say, "Oh if it isn't working, you probably didn't do A, B, C, right - try again." And I'll try again.

After a few more tries, if it still doesn't work, eventually I will just give up and say, "This is a load of nonsense."

So, Radical, I don't think you should worry very much about LOA being a hoax, and people getting duped by it. No harm will come out of it, if people are duped. At most they will waste a couple of hours of their lives lying down in a relaxed manner and thinking pleasant, positive thoughts. There are many worse ways to spend a couple of hours.

===

Anyway, I would like to share a chronologically documented example of LOA at work. It is recorded on my blog. Excerpts:

Acting Like Godot: Drawing Board

On 22 October, I was thinking how I can improve my chances of getting a scholarship. I wrote in my blog:

"Scholarship L is a lot more difficult than Scholarship S to get. Yet the monetary difference between the two may not be significant at all. Actions that I can take, to bolster my scholarship chances:

1. Write industry-related articles and get them published in the Business Times.
2. Literary achievements - for example, win GPA again.
3. Find opportunities to speak at conferences & seminars."

Take note of Point 3. Note that I've never actually spoken or been invited to speak at any professional conference for my industry before . But I thought that if I kept a lookout, then in the course of 2007, I might get a chance somewhere.

Look how quickly the intention manifested. It actually took just slightly more than a week to manifest. On 31 October, I wrote this in my blog:

Acting Like Godot: Speaking

"I've been saying that I should speak at conferences and seminars to boost my profile and eventual scholarship chances. Well, the thought went out into the universe, and now the opportunity has presented itself.

Yesterday, out of the blue, the boss "volunteered" me to speak at an industry conference in a neighbouring country. This conference is organised by THE world's leading industry association in my area of work."

Note the first sentence ... when I said "I'd been saying that I should speak", what I meant is that I'd been saying it to myself, not to my boss. I had never told my boss that I wanted to speak at any conference.

Yet the universe took just one week (from 22 October to 31 Ocotber) to find me the opportunity, to speak at a conference organised by a global organisation.

Btw, I've since spoken at the conference.

Acting Like Godot: Conference
Acting Like Godot: Conference - Over

I didn't mention on my blog how the speaking opportunity came about. In fact, the organisers had already chosen all their speakers. However, around 25 October (a few days after I had manifested my intention) one of the originally-scheduled conference speakers pulled out, citing a clashing commitment. The organisers panicked and scrambled to find a replacement speaker.

They asked my boss to speak instead. However, my boss's schedule was too tight. So he asked me to speak instead. That is how I ended up getting the chance to speak at this international conference - where I was the youngest and most inexperienced speaker; and ordinarily, based on my limited years of working experience, would not have been invited to speak.

But since I asked so nicely, the universe agreed to fix it up for me.

Just another small example of LOA at work.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Radical

Personally, I believe the concept of intention manifestation and the law of attraction to be a little too farfetched. Whilst it is obvious to me that your thoughts determine your actions and so consequently have a dramatic affect on your reality and how you interpret that reality, to suggest that your thoughts somehow create your reality bypassing the need to act, seems abit outlandish to say the least.

This reminds me too much of The Matrix and the teachings of the pseudoscience bashing new age entity named Ramtha. So before you're ready to throw in the towl of sanity and ignore all logical impulses, I urge you to be a bit more sceptical and question this dogma.

If however you are too wrapped up in the mysticism of this concept to question it rationally, then I challenge you to jump off a cliff and manifest the intention to sprout wings.

Excellent point in your life you have gotten yourself to. Obviously since you've taken the time to see The Matrix, and know what Ramtha is about and looked at the Law of Attraction and such, you are SEEKING. The only reason you are SEEKING answers is because you really don't believe your old, purely scientific/objective world view anymore, but you simply haven't gotten to the point yet where you are convinced enough to believe in LOA and Manifestation "out of thin air".

If LOA is simply just about changing your thought systems so that you take more consistent action to achieve a goal, then it's nothing really special. We all already KNOW that if we worked out 5 days a week we would have sculpted bodies and if we saved 10-20% of our income and worked our butts off and invested properly and budgeted our money our finances would be in much better shape. We've known that way of achieving things for a long time and it's not what you are SEEKING.

What you are SEEKING is "proof" that things can be manifested WITHOUT the required action steps normally associated with manifesting them. It seems rediculous to our logical mind that this could be possible, just like it seems rediculous for an adult to believe in Santa Claus, but yet we look around and we kind of see this type of thing happening. People who just always seem to "create" bad luck, or people who seem to achieve certain things with nowhere near the amount of action that other people require to achieve the same thing. There is a part of you that wonders, what if?

I was there once, and I'll tell you right now that no book, no blog post, no DVD, no forum message will EVER offer enough "proof" to you for you to truly believe that LOA works. The ONLY way for it to be proven to yourself is to experience it first hand. The only way you will actually believe it is if you manifest something "out of thin air" for yourself, and the thing that you manifest goes well beyond something that could simply be attributed to "co-incidence". It has to be something of big enough magnitude that your ego can no longer deny that there is absolutely NO WAY that this was pure co-incidence.

I've done this for myself, and experienced LOA first hand, so nobody can convince me otherwise, but until then I was just as skeptical as you.

Here's the challenge. In order to do that, in order to manifest something of big enough magnitude to satisfy your ego, you're going to have to put the law of manifestation to work without actually believing it. Ie. the process has to be as follows:

1) Pretend to believe LOA actually works as an experiment in one area of your life.
2) Create an intention to manifest something of big enough magnitude that it will convince you that it works.
3) Look for "evidence" that it's working in that area of your life. Write about it in your journal. Pretend that you are an actor playing the role of a person who believes that this actually works, just for that one manifestation.
4) Continue to hold the intention, continue to pretend to believe, just for that one area of your life for that one manifestation. You can live the rest of your life skeptical just like you are now, but in that one area just "try it".
5) Read articles about LOA, watch "The Secret", research anything you can on LOA and try to apply it to that one area.
6) At some point you will actually convince yourself that in that one area, for that one manifestation, LOA *could* actually work. Your subconsious will stop fighting the idea because you're just "acting" and "pretending" so it's ok.
7) One day, the manifestation will happen, you will stand there in equal parts awe/fear. You will have proven to yourself that LOA works, and there will be no doubt in your mind anymore that this could be a co-incidence. This day you will write for 3 hours in your journal because it's so exciting and will no longer need to question this topic.
8) The consequences of this new belief will hit you and you will now need to start looking for other areas of your life where you need to explore your beliefs and re-evaluate things. It is this "falling apart of beliefs" that you are really fearing to begin with.

This is really the only way to ever know whether this LOA thing really works. Even if 10,000 people tell you it does, it's not enough. Even if a million people tell you, it's not enough. It's only via direct experience that you will ever know whether it works or not.

After I re-read what I just wrote above I realized that some people might see a paradox here, saying that this won't work because in order to manifest using LOA you need to believe that LOA works but in order to really believe LOA really works you need to see direct result from it so you're stuck in a chicken/egg scenario. Perhaps you're wondering if people less intelligent than you can get LOA to work because they are too stupid to question the science behind it so they blindly believe in LOA and then it starts working for them because they believe, but since your mind is too intelligent to believe in something like this without proof, you're stuck in a paradox.

The way out of the paradox is to realize that what you believe can be manipulated by yourself. You can "trick" yourself to believe something temporarily if you want to by pretending you believe it. It's the "act as if" principle. You just pretend you believe something, talk about it like you believe it, take action like you believe it, and pretty soon your brain starts to believe you do believe it, but you can still have that skeptic inside knowing it's just a trick until you experience the results of the manifestation. Then you can really believe it.

I must warn you of one thing. Once you succeed at this, and you prove to yourself LOA works, your life will change. With the benefits LOA brings, don't think that it's all gravy. Once you prove to yourself you can create anything, you will have to face questions like "What do I *really* want?" and "Why?" and "Who am I?" and "What is the purpose of all this?". This is not a bad thing, but it is different then the life you're living now where the world is happening TO you and you don't really have a lot of responsibility.

Anyway, just my 2c.

[Acting Like Godot]

I will give you another chronologically documented example of LOA at work.

This year I had been working towards getting a promotion. My company announces promotions every February, so basically I have been working towards a promotion in Feb 07.

Well, I got tired. Because I felt that there is only so much I can do, towards getting my own promotion. Many other factors are outside my control - eg my boss's opinion, the number of promotions available, the performance of my other colleagues who also want the promotion.

So for certain reasons, I just decided to PRETEND to myself that promotion was inevitable. I would just ASSUME that it would happen. I just wanted to take some self-imposed pressure off myself. What I didn't know then is that this is a powerful IM technique - just ACT as if the thing had already happened, and it probably will.

Anyway, on August 28th, I wrote this on my blog:

More on the Breakthrough « Little Strategies

"I’ll assume that I will be promoted in Feb 2007. Thus I don’t need to focus on this anymore."

Thus I accidentally stumbled onto another key point in IM - detachment. That comes from the part where I wrote: "I don’t need to focus on this anymore."

Suddenly a series of events is activated. A few days later, in early September, headhunters start calling me about interesting job opportunities elsewhere. One thing leads to another, and my bosses become aware of this. They get quite worried. By 3rd week of Sep, I get to write this on my blog:

Acting Like Godot: 2007 Career Goals

"Market demand for professionals like me is currently very high. I get interesting, unsolicited phone calls from headhunters quite frequently. The latest two calls are indeed compelling. Word has gotten round, and in order to retain me, my own management has been promising me substantial salary upgrades early next year."

And guess what happens next? By 7 October 2006, there are further developments. I get an immediate salary increase - even though my company never increases anyone's salary at this time of the year. I get to write this:

Acting Like Godot: Money

"They had promised a promotion in Feb 2007. Yesterday - surprise, surprise - they pulled a rabbit out of their magic hat. I got an 80% salary increase, effective this month. 82% to be exact."

This is the biggest salary increase of my life.

[impaul99]

@Godot: That's awesome! Congrats on your salary increase.

My only concern is that it really doesn't matter what examples are posted, I could post 100's of times I've used LOA and made it work for me, because the skeptics will never really believe it works until they make it work for themselves, and that requires trying it out. Trying it out requires belief that it works at least to some degree. In other words, the belief in LOA has to be experienced, not explained mostly because the rest of the world out there functions on the assumption that LOA isn't in effect, when in effect LOA is working all the time.

In my martial arts training we often see newcomers ask questions like "What do I do if someone punches like this?" etc. and Sensei could sit there for hours talking to them about what they could do and how it would work etc. but really they don't believe anything anyways until he says "Ok, come here and punch at me like that." Within 2 seconds they *experience* what can be done and 99% of the questions dissapear, and then they just say "Ok, teach me, I'm ready to learn."

Learning things via books, blogs, etc. is a way of giving you something to try, a way of transferring knowledge, but only by trying things out do you build belief and thus see results. Too many people, including myself, fall into the trap of reading and knowing without trying and that is where all the doubt comes from. THere are many things I've tried out and doubt dissapeared. I knew once and for all, for myself, that it totally works or it's total crap. Until then, I only had my opinion.

[Radical]

@impaul99: Nice posts, you clearly understand where the skeptics are coming from.

You are right, no amount of anecdotal accounts will persuade me to believe in LoA, no matter the credibility of the source. Something this profound can only be accepted through personal experience.

And the paradox is that if you don't believe in it then you won't get results, but to truly believe in it you have to experience results.

Perhaps LoA is nothing more than a psychological trick? Maybe it was designed to give people hope and a sense of control? Or maybe it really is a law governing our universe just like the law of gravity? I don't know...

What I do know though is that I will always be skeptical, until I experience the results of LoA first hand and the results could not possibly be mere coincidence.

[Markus74]

If the LoA would really work then it would mean that you could remote-control other people to bring them to do what is needed to bring your manifestation to reality. Freewill would not exist.

Of course you can achieve more if you're actively out there then just sitting on the couch. Of course you can achieve more if you think positively and imagine yourself to be a winner.

But that doesn't mean magic or voodoo exist.

If people claim that the LoA works it's because they don't see the rationality behind all their actions. They just focus on a few aspects and *poof* the 'age-old secret works'. Bullocks, they've just organized their work in an efficient way.

And why would whole continents or whole generations attract and manifest pain for themselves? Did Hitler kill the Jews against their will or did the Jews manifest Hitler and the concentration camps?

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Radical

@impaul99: Nice posts, you clearly understand where the skeptics are coming from.

Only cuz I was there just a short time ago

And the paradox is that if you don't believe in it then you won't get results, but to truly believe in it you have to experience results.

There's a solution to the paradox and that is to research how beliefs are actually formed. For example, if you believe that you are "cute" or "good looking", how do you know that? There is no "cute-meter" or "good looks-meter" out there. But a lot of us live our lives BELIEVING that we are either Good Looking or Ugly, yet we haven't been shown scientific evidence either way.

If you do your research you will find out that beliefs can be formed about anything and they are completely up to your discretion. If you want to teach yourself to believe something you can do it. Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is to see belief as a scale of 1 to 10. Right now you're at level 1 with LOA and you're saying that you will never get to level 10 until you experience the results of LoA. The solution is that I agree with you 100% that you will never believe at level 10 that LoA works until you experience it for yourself, but the thing is that in order to experience it you need to first believe, however you don't necessarily need to believe it at level 10 to see results. By bringing your belief of it to level 4 or 5 you will start to see small manifestations that are just a bit "bizarre" and will make you question your own skepticism and your belief will reach 6 or 7 which will manifest even bigger things and so on.

Bottom line is that if you reached level 10, which most people never do, you'd be able to manifest anything at anytime, including wings to fly with when jumping off a cliff.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Markus74

If the LoA would really work then it would mean that you could remote-control other people to bring them to do what is needed to bring your manifestation to reality. Freewill would not exist.

Of course you can achieve more if you're actively out there then just sitting on the couch. Of course you can achieve more if you think positively and imagine yourself to be a winner.

But that doesn't mean magic or voodoo exist.

If people claim that the LoA works it's because they don't see the rationality behind all their actions. They just focus on a few aspects and *poof* the 'age-old secret works'. Bullocks, they've just organized their work in an efficient way.

And why would whole continents or whole generations attract and manifest pain for themselves? Did Hitler kill the Jews against their will or did the Jews manifest Hitler and the concentration camps?

To understand how Free will can still exist and how these events like WWII transpired even though LoA does exist you'll have to understand Subjective Reality more. Read Steve's question and answer blog entries on Subjective Reality.

[Cptn Willard]

Originally Posted by impaul99

It would mean that the only reason you "touched your left hand" is because the screen said so. In other words, the person who wrote "touch your left hand" caused you to touch your hand indirectly by writing the words, and then by the light impulses reaching your eyes it caused your brain to do what it perceived. This works fine if we are robots and if 1,000 read "touch your left hand" and they "touch their left hand", but what about people like me who read the message, interpreted it and DIDN'T touch my left hand. Somehow the cause/effect of the situation was interrupted. My consciousness DECIDED whether I wanted to touch my hand or not. *IT* decided what it wanted to do and thus CREATED (out of thin air) the cause that caused my arm to move via electrical impulses.

First, I have to say that I did *not* actually touch my hand either. I am only saying that science can explain it, and that no magic is needed.

No magic is needed either to explain what happened when you did not move your hand. The output of the processing in your brain (which is essentially chemistry and electricity) was that no electrical signal was to be sent to your muscles.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Markus74

If the LoA would really work then it would mean that you could remote-control other people to bring them to do what is needed to bring your manifestation to reality. Freewill would not exist.

You have to understand that everything is interconnected. When you meet Person A, he is also meeting you. You have manifested him into your life, just as he was manifested you. Even though the reasons why he appeared in your life will probably be different from the reasons why you appeared in his.

A common piece of IM advice is that you have to be clear about the what, but don't worry about the how. Leave that to the universe. Deepak Chopra describes it in this way - the universe has infinite organising power.

Herein you also find the answer to your "free will" dilemma. For example, let's say I wish to improve my music skills quickly. I manifest this intention. Lo and behold, two weeks later I just happen to meet a talented music teacher who's happy to give me lessons, starting that very week.

Now, I did not "remote-control" this talented music teacher. I did not force him to be my teacher. I merely manifested the intention to improve my music skills. How to improve those skills? I left the details to the universe. The universe then arranged for this particular teacher to enter my life. This one particular teacher.

What you must understand is that I have also entered this teacher's life for a reason. For example, maybe he had manifested the intention to earn more money; or he just felt like having a new student; or some other reason it was appropriate that I enter his life at that point in time (maybe he needs free legal advice on some personal matters; I happen to be a lawyer).

"Bah!" you say. "That is just too coincidental." Deepak Chopra's response to that is basically, all coincidences are meaningful. Nothing is actually random. The universe is perfectly arranged.

By the way, my above example of the music teacher may help you understand the meaning of this ancient Zen proverb:

"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by impaul99

To understand how Free will can still exist and how these events like WWII transpired even though LoA does exist you'll have to understand Subjective Reality more. Read Steve's question and answer blog entries on Subjective Reality.

I've heard the podcast, I've read his explanations and I'm still convinced that the theory of Subjective Reality is bogus, flawed and illogical. Not to say offensive. And the fact that you cannot disprove something doesn't make it true. It doesn't even make it probable. Or can you disprove invisible unicorns on Mars?

If the LoA or SR were real then free will cannot exist.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

You have to understand that everything is interconnected. When you meet Person A, he is also meeting you. You have manifested him into your life, just as he was manifested you. Even though the reasons why he appeared in your life will probably be different from the reasons why you appeared in his.

Which would mean that you can ONLY manifest people that manifest you. You cannot manifest anyone or anything then. That's quite a restriction.

A common piece of IM advice is that you have to be clear about the what, but don't worry about the how. Leave that to the universe. Deepak Chopra describes it in this way - the universe has infinite organising power.

And yet the Universe then has to be either uncaring or utterly stupid if it realizes things that makes people suffer.

Herein you also find the answer to your "free will" dilemma. For example, let's say I wish to improve my music skills quickly. I manifest this intention. Lo and behold, two weeks later I just happen to meet a talented music teacher who's happy to give me lessons, starting that very week.

Where would you meet this teacher? At a music school?

And it still could have been complete coincidence. The thing is that people often don't recognize coincidence as coincidence because their view is limited. They think: Oh, no! This couldn't just have happened like that! This HAS TO BE magic.

The problem is they don't know anything about probability and odds.

Now, I did not "remote-control" this talented music teacher. I did not force him to be my teacher. I merely manifested the intention to improve my music skills. How to improve those skills? I left the details to the universe. The universe then arranged for this particular teacher to enter my life. This one particular teacher.

So it had, or could, only be this one teacher? Why not somebody else?

What you must understand is that I have also entered this teacher's life for a reason. For example, maybe he had manifested the intention to earn more money; or he just felt like having a new student; or some other reason it was appropriate that I enter his life at that point in time (maybe he needs free legal advice on some personal matters; I happen to be a lawyer).

Nice theory. Can you rephrase that example with a child and its rapist please. Or someone who's dying of cancer. Or from hunger. Maybe I can better understand it then. Thank you.

"Bah!" you say. "That is just too coincidental." Deepak Chopra's response to that is basically, all coincidences are meaningful. Nothing is actually random. The universe is perfectly arranged.

Does he have ANY proof for that?

"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

I see this more along the lines of: If the student is ready then he's more able to recognize potential teachers. That's why he will find one. The teacher will not just fall out of the sky.

And again: Why can all the examples of manifestion, subjective reality, etc also be explained rationally or by referring to coincidence? Why aren't there ANY examples of people bending physics? People regrowing amputated limbs? People flying?

Oh, let me guess. It the PEOPLE's fault! They don't really believe it enough!!! But the LoA and SR can't ever be wrong. That's just impossible!

lol, that's such a naive and childish view.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Markus74

I've heard the podcast, I've read his explanations and I'm still convinced that the theory of Subjective Reality is bogus, flawed and illogical.

Ask yourself: "what kind of certainties do I have in my life?"

I can think of only one: I know that I exist.

It is perfectly possible that all people around me only play a role in my life, like other people can become dream characters in my dreams. It is perfectly possible that my consciousness is the only consciousness that exists.

I don't say that it IS like that. I say only: it is possible.

This consideration is enough for me to believe in subjective reality.

If you can prove that you have more certainties than I have, I would be glad to review my opinion.

[Acting Like Godot]

Well, basically you seem to be repeating the same old questions that people have already been answering for you, in other threads. I could give you my two cents worth, on all the points you raised. But then I already have, in other threads.

So maybe let me help you look at it in a different, and hopefully more practical, way.

1. Either LOA works, or LOA does not work.

2. If LOA works, then it works - whether or not people on this forum can give you answers that you find completely satisfactory.

3. If LOA does not work, then it does not work - even if people on this forum can give you answers that you find completely satisfactory.

To use a simple analogy, I have a handphone. It works (the last time I checked). However, I am not an engineer and I do not actually know how handphones are made or how they work or what those funny circuits inside it are supposed to do.

Engineers could try to explain this to me, and they may or may not be good at explaining it to me, and regardless of whether they are good or not good at explaining, I may or may not find their explanations satisfactory.

But I know my handphone works. Because I press certain buttons on it, and hey presto, I can talk to my friend over the phone, and he can talk to me.

Why don't you go press some buttons yourself, and see if it works? LOA, I mean.

It's a bit like gravitational force, yes? F= GMm/r(squared). Whether you knew that or not; whether I can explain it to you well or not; whether you understand the explanation or not, the law of gravity works. Some things about the law of gravity the scientists still don't fully understand - like, why isn't gravity slowing down the expansion of the universe?. But just because we don't have a satisfactory answer to that, doesn't mean that the law of gravity will stop working.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Frans

Ask yourself: "what kind of certainties do I have in my life?"

I can think of only one: I know that I exist.

It is perfectly possible that all people around me only play a role in my life, like other people can become dream characters in my dreams. It is perfectly possible that my consciousness is the only consciousness that exists.

I don't say that it IS like that. I say only: it is possible.

This consideration is enough for me to believe in subjective reality.

If you can prove that you have more certainties than I have, I would be glad to review my opinion.

It could also be possible that we're connected to a holodeck ...
If you're the only consciousness then what am I? A product of it? So I'm a sort of robot or program?

As for knowing that you exist, what does that mean? Do you exist physically or as a 'soul'? You could be an alien who gets images projected unto his eye so that he thinks he's a human. It's not probable, but it's possible.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Well, basically you seem to be repeating the same old questions that people have already been answering for you, in other threads. I could give you my two cents worth, on all the points you raised. But then I already have, in other threads.

But they didn't really explain things.

Why don't you go press some buttons yourself, and see if it works? LOA, I mean.

And if the LoA doesn't work, it's because I WANTED it to fail, right? Because the LoA can never be wrong ...

And you still haven't explained the LoA regarding children getting raped or people getting born in chaotic countries. Or did I miss your answer on that?