More on Karma - Part 2

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by nicbrahms

Okay, the second thing I wanted to say was that many people seem to think that we need to learn lessons from this experience. Why? Why? Why? We are perfect eternal beings and trust me there is no lessons to be learnt here, why would we need to learn lessons here in a lower dimension to where we are actually from where we create instantly.

By that same logic, there is no reason for us to even be here, because as you said, we are perfect. Why would a perfect being need anything -- including a physical experience? The concept of "desire" and the concept of "need" imply incompleteness. If you had everything (i.e. were perfect), there would be no desire or need for "something else".

I'm not necessarily saying we aren't perfect, just examining the logic behind your statement.

Originally Posted by nicbrahms

Sorry but it is complete nonsense to say that you can do something bad in one life and carry it over to another life, how ridiculous this sounds to me. Even if karma were real, why on earth would a new you have to pay the price of the old you? That is completely unjust and dare I say it again ridiculous (I guess I dare).

You are still looking at it terms of "paying back" which is a reward/punishment system. Karma is just energy balancing itself. It's not a new "you". It's a new expression of you. When you die, you remember your lives. It is the same consciousness moving from one life to the next. We do have a "soul ego" that maintains its integrity from lifetime to lifetime.

We incarnate, then die, and review the experience, and then mix it up by being on the other side of the coin. Sometimes the the other side of the coin is pleasant, sometimes it's not, but that is a subjective determination made by the experiencer of said events. After all, all actions are neutral.

Karma from one life that is balanced in another is not punishment, its simply the fluctuations of conscious energy patterns. Neither side of the coin is good or bad. But we experience our creations fully. It is part of the cycle of the creator knowing itself in full.

If you create pain, you get to experience pain, because that is your creation. You experience it fully. If you create happiness, then you get to experience the happiness in your creation fully.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

it is counterintuitive in a way but it's the only way to set yourself free. and be unhindered by karma. if you fight karma and say you can opt out of it - then you are more bound by it, I'd say. It seems kind of egotistical, to me, to say you can opt out of karma by saying all this is something we can change because you are a powerful individual. that is not my experience so far. everything that has awed me or felt powerful or opened up my life is beyond me and not me and not personal and transcends the need to have a self that claims the experience. letting go of self also unlocks the karma to the self, in a way. liberation is when the self isn't there to be subject to what is. accepting what is liberates the self. not accepting (which, to me seems like this anti karma idea) is an ego strong hold, ironically.

I agree with you.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

and yeah - killing is not harmonious. be a good steward of "life" as best as you feel. just because there's an idea that says this is an illusion and there aren't really people that are "alive" is no license to be stupid and reckless about life process.

Buddha and Jesus both were very into peace, yeah? awakened ones are also into not harming what is going on and look for peaceful ways as much as possible. it's not a judgment - it's a harmony or ease or natural way of being.

how can you say it doesn't matter if you are a destructive force in this plane and also say you have gained some insight into spiritual matters - doesn't compute to me that way at all.... just saying. sure transcendence can show one that duality doesn't exist - and that there is no good or bad way to go about life - but it seems transcending duality brings harmony not disharmony. imo.

I agree with this as well. And if we look at karma in terms of soul polarity we see that the selfish destruction of other lifeforms (what most would consider negative) would retard positive polarity, lessening the power of the soul (that is, unless they were polarizing negatively).

For example, in the Ra channelings Ra states: "The further an entity has, what you would call, polarized, the more easily this entity may change polarity, for the more power and awareness the entity will have."

Which implies that the less polarity one has, the less power and awareness one has. So if this is accurate, then it means polarity has a connection with power.

Another interesting Ra tidbit:

Questioner: Yesterday we were talking about the split that occurs when an entity either consciously or unconsciously chooses the path that leads to either service to others or service to self. The philosophical question of why such a split even exists came up. It was my impression that just as it is in electricity, if we have no polarity in electricity we have no electricity; we have no action. Therefore, I am assuming that it is the same in consciousness. If we have no polarity in consciousness we also have no action or experience. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. You may use the general term “work.”

Now, none of this is to imply any such dimming of positive polarity cannot be repaired through yet more incarnative experience of a service to others or positive nature. But the more I turn this over in my mind, the more I see the concept of polarity as the real truth behind karma. Racking up "good karma" is akin to racking up more and more "positive polarity" and "bad karma" is is polarizing negatively.

If through our negative acts toward others, we damage our chosen polarity, we must then initiate those incarnate experiences that will heal said damage. I think the service to others polarity, or positive polarity, is predicated on compassion for other beings. So karmic restitution, where the roles are flipped around are means for a seeker of positive polarization to gain compassion for their victims experience.

I guess what determines whether a given karmic act is "good" or not is what direction you are polarizing, as intense polarization in either direction will expand your awareness and power as a conscious being.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

By that same logic, there is no reason for us to even be here, because as you said, we are perfect. Why would a perfect being need anything -- including a physical experience? The concept of "desire" and the concept of "need" imply incompleteness. If you had everything (i.e. were perfect), there would be no desire or need for "something else".

I'm not necessarily saying we aren't perfect, just examining the logic behind your statement.

We are perfect.. were also here to experience delayed manifestation.. after all for most of us.. that's what's going on.. (though lately I've witnessed a few instant manifestations)

Now, let's answer the original question

Originally Posted by nicbrahms

Okay, the second thing I wanted to say was that many people seem to think that we need to learn lessons from this experience. Why? Why? Why? We are perfect eternal beings and trust me there is no lessons to be learnt here, why would we need to learn lessons here in a lower dimension to where we are actually from where we create instantly.

It's my understanding to be honest.. karma is like a option on a car.. you could have air bags and a radio.. or you could have a more freeing trip with "cruise control" instead of a stick

Originally Posted by Anagogy

You are still looking at it terms of "paying back" which is a reward/punishment system. Karma is just energy balancing itself. It's not a new "you". It's a new expression of you. When you die, you remember your lives. It is the same consciousness moving from one life to the next. We do have a "soul ego" that maintains its integrity from lifetime to lifetime.

We incarnate, then die, and review the experience, and then mix it up by being on the other side of the coin. Sometimes the other side of the coin is pleasant, sometimes it's not, but that is a subjective determination made by the experiencer of said events. After all, all actions are neutral.

Karma from one life that is balanced in another is not punishment, it's simply the fluctuations of conscious energy patterns. Neither side of the coin is good or bad. But we experience our creations fully. It is part of the cycle of the creator knowing itself in full.

If you create pain, you get to experience pain, because that is your creation. You experience it fully. If you create happiness, then you get to experience the happiness in your creation fully.

All, well and good.. but still optional.. there is no rule or law that we have created that can't be broken..

We could talk ourselves into a tisy (egotistically) about what we do from HIGHER perspective.. but we don't know cause were not there... but let's be clear We don't have to follow through on our karma.. everything that we create is optional.. everything we have comes through "free will" a rule for ourselves

(for the record I ain't saying from a higher perspective.. I might choose to enact karma in my next live(s).. but what I'm saying is.. it's rather silly to think about it or spend time ego'ing it in our reality)

Another part of this karma myth.. or religious crap part.. is the idea of adding "reincarnation" into it.. understand I'm not saying we don't reincarnate.. but thanks to the religious aspects.. it has locked a lot of people into a mindset of humble lives (again nothing wrong with that) but even that is a limitation.. to live your life.. walking on egg shells.. to be afraid to validate or taste negative.. is just kind of sad and limiting

To spend your days following the moral rules is also limiting.. luckily many of us don't do that

Originally Posted by wolfgang

say it's limiting and state that karma is my enemy

It is limiting.. notice that the word limiting has a very neutral tone.. not negative not positive.. feels neutral (least when I say it )

Karma is not your enemy.. listen clearly to what I'm saying 101 different ways..

Karma is optional.. karma is limiting in your lives.. I offer you the idea that it can be removed.. only

Again to state clearly.. it's a idea.. it's not telling you what to do it's not telling how to live.. it's just a idea to share with everyone..

Originally Posted by wolfgang

if you fight karma and say you can opt out of it - then you are more bound by it, I'd say.

I'd agree with you from a LOA aspect

Originally Posted by wolfgang

It seems kind of egotistical, to me, to say you can opt out of karma by saying all this is something we can change because you are a powerful individual.

Egotistical.. really??

We created peanut butter, jelly, grapefruit, melons, bee's with stingers, oceans, 0 Celsius, neutrino's??

And it's egoistical to say.. we can't opt out of our own creation?? your assertion is slightly laughable

Really.. who here thinks there small???

(raise your hand)

Okay.. I get it some of us have been taught or believe us to be small.. let me answer that with a opposite more powerful, more positive answer..

Were all very big!

Originally Posted by wolfgang

everything that has awed me or felt powerful or opened up my life is beyond me and not me

beyond me???

Okay, if what you say is true.. and your belief = reality.. it will always be beyond you.. let me share with you the idea.. that things that are "beyond" you.. you can understand..

Nothing is beyond you.. everything out there and around you is all you!

(notice a propensity lately for me.. to call out my teachers second law.. "the one are all, the all are one")

not me???

There is separation, yes.. but "not me" really?? while I get your trying to make statements of connection.. your statement really reminds of disconnection.. and putting everything out there up on a pedestal.. everything out there is you.. you are equal to it.. even if you may technically be of a lower vibration.. having a nice interaction with a higher

Originally Posted by wolfgang

(which, to me seems like this anti karma idea) is an ego strong hold, ironically.

How can offering the idea of karma being "optional" be anti-karma?

Originally Posted by wolfgang

and yeah - killing is not harmonious. be a good steward of "life" as best as you feel. just because there's an idea that says this is an illusion and there aren't really people that are "alive" is no license to be stupid and reckless about life process.

By stupid and reckless I assume you mean..

"Better safe, then sorry"

That's just a lack of convictions for beliefs.. I guess what your really saying is you don't want to see a serial killer on the news saying those new age guys told me "killing was okay and I wouldn't be punished.. I would have killed 50 more if I could have... hahhaaaaa... <end evil laugh>"

I can't think of a way killing is harmonious.. you may be right.. maybe it can't be viewed that way..

But you can't really argue with the idea that there truly is no difference between killing a insect (most of us have done it), a plant, a chicken and a human being?

All of us "ego's" make a difference.. (or most of us do )

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Buddha and Jesus both were very into peace, yeah? awakened ones are also into not harming what is going on and look for peaceful ways as much as possible. it's not a judgment - it's a harmony or ease or natural way of being.

how can you say it doesn't matter if you are a destructive force in this plane and also say you have gained some insight into spiritual matters - doesn't compute to me that way at all.... just saying. sure transcendence can show one that duality doesn't exist - and that there is no good or bad way to go about life - but it seems transcending duality brings harmony not disharmony. imo.

Invalidation.. your statement smacks of it..

So what your saying is.. good spiritual teachers tell us to pick up flowers, live in peace and not kill?

Bad spiritual teachers say.. hey, you can kill if you like.. there's no retribution.. I'm not suggesting it.. but I'm just reminding you of a option you have when your here.. do what you like?

You ever wonder why most of our teachers won't broach this subject?? because most of don't want to hear it obviously and so you can see they keep it light and positive.. but they hint at the full truth..

Honestly, I also don't understand anagogy's take on abraham as partial truth in the context of this discussion.. I mean even abraham says and I'm re-quoting here "when we kill people in our execution chambers.. if we wanted to punish them.. that's far and away not much of a punishment, it's quite the opposite, more like a reward"

[Acting Like Godot]

themaster:

Lately I think you've been getting a little carried away with theory. There is a difference between the LOA and conscious creation.

We can all get better and better, at conscious creation. We can even create events, circumstances and things in ways that other people would regard as "miraculous", "extraordinary" or "amazing". But that doesn't mean we can do everything / anything.

If YOU can already do anything and everything (via conscious creation), why would you be consulting your current teacher?

--------------------------------------

Personally I am not interested in opting out of karma. In the first place, I don't perceive karma as disadvantageous or limiting. Therefore, trying to find a way to opt out of it (if that was even possible) seems to me to be a non-significant project and a waste of my time.

If you see karma as limiting or disadvantageous, (based on your own understanding of karma), then yes it could be an important task for you to opt out of it.

---------------------------------------

Also, you must try to understand that some people, like myself, truly do not harbour any desire to kill others. Therefore do not worry for me.

As I truly do not have any desire to kill others, I do not find it painful, limiting or traumatic, to refrain from killing others.

I don't have to "walk on eggshells", as you put it, in order to prevent myself from killing others. On the contrary, it is natural and easy for me to not kill other people.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

If YOU can already do anything and everything (via conscious creation), why would you be consulting your current teacher?

That's just it.. I can't.. I'm working on my own limitations

Hence the teacher

Today I got a fortune cookie that said "All your hard work will soon pay off" given I actually don't do hard work.. I took this as spiritual work

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Lately I think you've been getting a little carried away with theory. There is a difference between the LOA and conscious creation.

If you say so.. after all I don't really care

And now that you mention it.. I don't think there really is a difference..

Difference is a word we like to use with the "ego"..

It's that same difference that we use to say.. quarter = easy manifestation, steel building = hard manifestation

killing insect = a-okay
killing human = hold the cake!

I say the difference is a illusion.. a "ego" lie/truth

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

But that doesn't mean we can do everything / anything.

That is a limitation statement

That may be true for now.. maybe but that doesn't mean it was true always or in the near future...

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I don't have to "walk on eggshells", as you put it, in order to prevent myself from killing others. On the contrary, it is natural and easy for me to not kill other people.

That's great for you.. as long as you acknowledge it as a choice.. you can't create loa with it

Let me ask you though since you didn't say.. do you "walk on eggshells" around interactions in your daily life?

What I mean is do you have karma in mind in everything you do.. did you say I believe in karma.. therefore I won't do this and this and this?

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Also, you must try to understand that some people, like myself, truly do not harbor any desire to kill others. Therefore do not worry for me.

I'm mostly in the same boat.. mostly

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

As I truly do not have any desire to kill others, I do not find it painful, limiting or traumatic, to refrain from killing others.

That's great.. and I also don't have much of a problem with murder.. I seem to kill a insect every now and then but that's about it.. cept for the usual stuff.. chickens and cows through *burger king*

But understand the limitation.. is in the disconnection of the choice.. in that you refuse that you cannot commit murder.. thus by law of attraction you draw that experience closer and closer..

Imagine if you ran a organization like "Parents against child killers" I'd think you'd have interesting tails to tell of getting together and openly talking/creating these ideas.. it's like getting to together in a group and going "How can we make this planet worse on purpose?"

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Personally I am not interested in opting out of karma. In the first place, I don't perceive karma as disadvantageous or limiting. Therefore, trying to find a way to opt out of it (if that was even possible) seems to me to be a non-significant project and a waste of my time.

I quite agree.. if you don't see it as limiting.. it just cannot be.. this is where we talked about the idea of "definition" and terminology..

Remember, I believe there was once a conversation about marriage and that being limiting.. but if the person in the marriage doesn't see it that way.. then it can't be..

But here's more the crux of my ideas about loa and karma..

Wouldn't you say your knowledge and thoughts about karma.. attract karma?

And wouldn't you say that finding patterns in your life that you "label" karma.. also help to attract even more knowledge and thoughts and experiences about karma?

Or you would you just say... "loa and karma" are the same thing?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by themaster

But understand the limitation.. is in the disconnection of the choice.. in that you refuse that you cannot commit murder.. thus by law of attraction you draw that experience closer and closer..

LOL, no. I only mentioned murder, because it was the example that Anagogy used.

I assure you that in daily life, I have no problems not thinking about killing the people that I meet.

Wouldn't you say your knowledge and thoughts about karma.. attract karma?

Sure. Thoughts about the LOA also attract more thoughts about the LOA.

Thinking a lot about karma attracts more info, insights and ideas about karma.

Similarly, thinking a lot about the [environment] / [politics] / [sports] attracts more thoughts about each of these topics.

Or you would you just say... "loa and karma" are the same thing?

Yes of course. At most, they are different aspects of the same thing.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by themaster

We could talk ourselves into a tisy (egotistically) about what we do from HIGHER perspective.. but we don't know cause were not there... but let's be clear We don't have to follow through on our karma.. everything that we create is optional.. everything we have comes through "free will" a rule for ourselves

free will is the illusion of a separate self and there in lies karma too. see through the self illusion - karma is not effecting any self because the self is an appearance in oneness.

(for the record I ain't saying from a higher perspective.. I might choose to enact karma in my next live(s).. but what I'm saying is.. it's rather silly to think about it or spend time ego'ing it in our reality)

isn't ego'ing our reality the same thing as wanting to escape karma?

Another part of this karma myth.. or religious crap part.. is the idea of adding "reincarnation" into it.. understand I'm not saying we don't reincarnate.. but thanks to the religious aspects.. it has locked a lot of people into a mindset of humble lives (again nothing wrong with that) but even that is a limitation.. to live your life.. walking on egg shells.. to be afraid to validate or taste negative.. is just kind of sad and limiting

I would imagine the natural state does not need to walk on egg shells. it's the separate self that needs to do that.

To spend your days following the moral rules is also limiting.. luckily many of us don't do that
It is limiting.. notice that the word limiting has a very neutral tone.. not negative not positive.. feels neutral (least when I say it )

everyone is conditioned and that is the limiting deal. we are habitual creatures that store programs in our imagined self entity and act those patterns out - unless there is awakening.

Karma is not your enemy.. listen clearly to what I'm saying 101 different ways..

I thought you are saying you want to opt out of karma. isn't that viewing it as something you don't want? (and therefore an enemy?)

Karma is optional.. karma is limiting in your lives.. I offer you the idea that it can be removed.. only

I don't see how you see that it can be removed. To me, it is the same thing as enlightenment. Once it is known there is no self - karma doesn't matter. Karma can not be removed by the self in the same way no one can really choose to become enlightened.

Again to state clearly.. it's a idea.. it's not telling you what to do it's not telling how to live.. it's just a idea to share with everyone..

I'd agree with you from a LOA aspect

Egotistical.. really??

We created peanut butter, jelly, grapefruit, melons, bee's with stingers, oceans, 0 Celsius, neutrino's??

And it's egoistical to say.. we can't opt out of our own creation?? your assertion is slightly laughable

God (or whatever) is creation - not our "you"s.

Really.. who here thinks there small???

(raise your hand)

Okay.. I get it some of us have been taught or believe us to be small.. let me answer that with a opposite more powerful, more positive answer..


beyond me???

Okay, if what you say is true.. and your belief = reality.. it will always be beyond you.. let me share with you the idea.. that things that are "beyond" you.. you can understand..

yes that's right the separate self is small. I was attempting to describe the feeling of not being the small separate self. And in terms of how it's not me (the self I believe to be me) that is the creative force. Creation is not personal nor can it be claimed by an individual or a ego self's power trip.

Nothing is beyond you.. everything out there and around you is all you!

(notice a propensity lately for me.. to call out my teachers second law.. "the one are all, the all are one")

not me???

There is separation, yes.. but "not me" really?? while I get your trying to make statements of connection.. your statement really reminds of disconnection.. and putting everything out there up on a pedestal.. everything out there is you.. you are equal to it.. even if you may technically be of a lower vibration.. having a nice interaction with a higher

The everything "out there" is all "me" - is true to me but not a personal ego building thing. If I take my usual separate self identity and try to extrapolate that identity to everything out there and label as "me" - I think that is a shifting of identity - nothing more. There is no way to identify with one or to make it personal- it is one not subject object where you can hang an identity.

How can offering the idea of karma being "optional" be anti-karma?

if you opt out of something that is to be opposed to it - I would think. if you don't want to drink coffee - you are anti-coffee. Although choosing to not have coffee is possible - I don't think it's possible to opt out of karma by just thinking it's possible. Again, you say you are opting out of it - but I don't see how it is you are thinking that has actually happened.

By stupid and reckless I assume you mean..

"Better safe, then sorry"

That's just a lack of convictions for beliefs.. I guess what your really saying is you don't want to see a serial killer on the news saying those new age guys told me "killing was okay and I wouldn't be punished.. I would have killed 50 more if I could have... hahhaaaaa... <end evil laugh>"

I can't think of a way killing is harmonious.. you may be right.. maybe it can't be viewed that way..

But you can't really argue with the idea that there truly is no difference between killing a insect (most of us have done it), a plant, a chicken and a human being?

I don't know. It some level there has to be killing. I try to imagine a lion taking a gazelle as natural. Some sort of symphony of the world. And yes, for some reason killing a bug seems to be natural if it's bugging me. But to take higher life forms is not the same. I don't know why and I don't see how you say there is no difference in taking a plant or a chicken. Some might say it's part of a plan that happens and certain life forms are going to die and get consumed. But that isn't a reason to cast the feeling aside that makes it really hard to kill higher life forms in general.

All of us "ego's" make a difference.. (or most of us do )

Invalidation.. your statement smacks of it..

So what your saying is.. good spiritual teachers tell us to pick up flowers, live in peace and not kill?

invalidation of what?

Bad spiritual teachers say.. hey, you can kill if you like.. there's no retribution.. I'm not suggesting it.. but I'm just reminding you of a option you have when your here.. do what you like?

I think both teachers would be "bad" ones. those that say kill or don't kill and try to give you moral codes and try to make you follow their made up rules are not really teachers they are dictators or oppressors. The real deal type teacher would allow you to find the truth in what is in proper context of your own life situation regarding killing or picking flowers. and I'd say most find it in their hearts to pick flowers. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

You ever wonder why most of our teachers won't broach this subject?? because most of don't want to hear it obviously and so you can see they keep it light and positive.. but they hint at the full truth..

not really - I've always not needed to know about what's right or wrong from teachers - there's something innate about it to me and, like I wrote above, it's not something someone else gives me but something I can feel inside me or even as a philosophical oneness idea that doing no harm as best as possible also means less harm to the oneness of my true nature.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

free will is the illusion of a separate self and therein lies karma too. see through the self illusion - karma is not effecting any self because the self is an appearance in oneness.

make sense.. also reads complicated and also reads like nothing

Basically, I can say.. I'm not sure where you were going with this..??

Originally Posted by wolfgang

isn't ego'ing our reality the same thing as wanting to escape karma?

Karma has been presented multiple times through multiple teachers as optional (I didn't say all teachers) meaning all you have to do is ask..

Now I don't claim to know what other spiritual teachers say.. but let's be clear if we examine this from a scientific aspect than..

Karma = a mystical unproven concept

Therefore all "new age" information about karma comes from enlightened/more understanding people who share the information they know about it with us.. obviously in conceptional form it probably has negative, neutral and positive aspects meaning.. limited and unlimited

Since some teachers have said it was optional.. I say that then depends on the individual doesn't it?? to choose to have/allow or remove/disallow, basically the right way to say it is.. going this way (no karma) is my preference?

Originally Posted by wolfgang

everyone is conditioned and that is the limiting deal. we are habitual creatures that store programs in our imagined self entity and act those patterns out - unless there is awakening.

Well, on this we agree..

I believe a awakening would be death or a real ascension

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I thought you are saying you want to opt out of karma. isn't that viewing it as something you don't want? (and therefore an enemy?)

It can't be a enemy if you validate it as a equal choice.. and I do.. I simply say I prefer this.. (no karma)

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I don't see how you see that it can be removed. To me, it is the same thing as enlightenment. Once it is known there is no self - karma doesn't matter. Karma cannot be removed by the self in the same way no one can really choose to become enlightened.

Well, let's be clear shall we.. let's define karma with definitions..

Karma positive definition - not limiting, not enforcing, just creation-reaction at least here in 3d

Karma neutral definition - just is, just does a lot like loa in description

Karma negative definition - punishment for anything you do.. will come back on you.. basically to use alg's quick analogy.. victimize your employee's and bam your window will break.. is one example (originally given)

I would agree with on the idea "karma doesn't matter", I would even agree from the right perspective karma cannot be removed from the self..

Let me clarify.. if we our gods.. if we are spiraling outward in billion to a billion to a trillion universes and we expect to explore everything from every perspective.. well in that case than karma doesn't matter because everything must be explored! in every way possible! So even though it is optional via free will and I may choose not to do it.. another me will!

Originally Posted by wolfgang

God (or whatever) is creation - not our "you"s.

Are you saying god is separate? Because your other statements seem to say the opposite.. so all I can say is I'm confused by this statement..

Originally Posted by wolfgang

yes that's right the separate self is small. I was attempting to describe the feeling of not being the small separate self. And in terms of how it's not me (the self I believe to be me) that is the creative force. Creation is not personal nor can it be claimed by an individual or a ego self's power trip.

Creation is not personal?

I can see this from 2 different perspectives but really the statement doesn't make sense

Our lives our personal, our experiences, our personal.. now you can say well creation is just a force it's not personal cause it works for all of us and in that perspective I can see that right.. but otherwise just another confusing statement perhaps wrapped up in too much philosophy or not enough exampling?

If we are all copy's of the one.. how can anything not be personal..?? we're here to look at ourselves in different configurations of this and that.. of this or that.. if I understand our job right at some point we will report back what we have found out about ourselves

Originally Posted by wolfgang

The everything "out there" is all "me" - is true to me but not a personal ego building thing. If I take my usual separate self identity and try to extrapolate that identity to everything out there and label as "me" - I think that is a shifting of identity - nothing more. There is no way to identify with one or to make it personal- it is one not subject object where you can hang an identity.

See once again I have to say what are you talking about.. is this just a terminology problem or just too much philosophy?

There's no way to identify with one? I mean come on.. right there is a statement of limitation.. but let's skip that for now..

We all have intuition, ego and even psychic senses (though some of us may call those ego, intuition etc.) we can read each other.. we can see each other for who we are.. so let's assume you're not talking about each other..

Maybe you're talking about "one" as in our original self, our original being that which some people like to call god.. we can't identify with him? is he so high and mighty.. he's outside of our abilities cause were so small and insignificant?

Now you might be able to say.. we can't understand him cause of our ego's and that may in part be true

But you cannot achieve that which you claim is not possible.. and this statement says something is impossible "There is no way to identify with one"

Now let's be clear in fairness I'm willing to say we can't really understand people truly in this reality.. (but from higher perspective we can.. we record everything we do here and from that place all is viewable) were only given certain information and we shouldn't judge them regardless

[themaster]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

if you opt out of something that is to be opposed to it - I would think. if you don't want to drink coffee - you are anti-coffee. Although choosing to not have coffee is possible - I don't think it's possible to opt out of karma by just thinking it's possible. Again, you say you are opting out of it - but I don't see how it is you are thinking that has actually happened.

I have already stated this above.. validating it as a equal choice is how you choose something else.. I am not above karma.. I just choose not to allow karma.. I prefer no karma

The happened part comes from validating my teachers messages about it being optional.. to me that is a positive message.. it is a unlimited way to be.. where as having karma could be limiting.. not bad.. just limiting

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I don't know. It some level there has to be killing.

Yah, I've been there, done that.. the whole rationalizing killing is wrong thing.. It's safe to say that is no longer a valid belief system for me..

Originally Posted by wolfgang

And yes, for some reason killing a bug seems to be natural if it's bugging me.

Funny we call them bugs, huh?

Originally Posted by wolfgang

But to take higher life forms is not the same.

Now who's using their ego?

Maybe you can't hear it your sentence like I can.. but I hear your sentence and immediately read both negativity and limitation

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Some might say it's part of a plan that happens and certain life forms are going to die and get consumed.

There born for us to eat.. according to my teacher.. a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.. this reality, this earth didn't need to kill to eat and we had a lot smarter animals back then.. according to him as we choose to de-evolve from this era of higher vibration (that to which we are returning) some of the animals (not all) chose to go with us.. and so coming down here like they did.. they probably came from talking, nicer, bigger animals to the copycat of us we see here.. killing to live and such

Originally Posted by wolfgang

But that isn't a reason to cast the feeling aside that makes it really hard to kill higher life forms in general.

This is all ego.. you can read it plain as day Notice how in this statement your playing with back and forth on this idea.. you see you aren't even certain of what you're saying

You feel the negativity just a bit?

Originally Posted by wolfgang

invalidation of what?

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Buddha and Jesus both were very into peace, yeah? awakened ones are also into not harming what is going on and look for peaceful ways as much as possible. it's not a judgment - it's a harmony or ease or natural way of being.

Budda and Jesus were great beings.. but even they didn't go around and say.. I am so up there.. so good.. I am incapable of murder.. even they actualized it as a equal choice.. what happens when you equalize something is than you choose what you prefer..

Originally Posted by wolfgang

how can you say it doesn't matter if you are a destructive force in this plane and also say you have gained some insight into spiritual matters

When you invalidate your choices.. you're not really balanced and your sending yourself onto a path to create/have them happen.. not only that but you invalidate yourself..

What were you saying here.. how can you say it doesn't matter if you are a destructive force you see you are invalidating your choices.. then your projecting on to me and trying to invalidate my choices.. projection is a sign you don't understand yourself and as such, you try to tell others how to live and how to be.. as you should already know.. (and probably do ) you should let others do what they want and you should do what you want

Originally Posted by wolfgang

but it seems transcending duality brings harmony not disharmony. imo.

You see in validating our choices.. in any second I could kill a 100 humans, a 100 bee's a 100 cows (doesn't matter).. I validate my truth and my choices.. but in validating them.. then I just don't need to choose them.. I just lean the other way.. that's how you get that thing you see as "harmony"

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I think both teachers would be "bad" ones. those that say kill or don't kill and try to give you moral codes and try to make you follow their made up rules are not really teachers they are dictators or oppressors.

I wouldn't call them bad like you.. none of us our bad

But I would call them teachers of disempowerment, yes..

However I wouldn't call a teacher who said this.. a teacher of disempowerment.. "you can kill if you like.. there's no retribution.. I'm not suggesting it.. but I'm just reminding you of a option you have when your here.. do what you like?"

Originally Posted by wolfgang

The real deal type teacher would allow you to find the truth in what is in proper context of your own life situation regarding killing or picking flowers. and I'd say most find it in their hearts to pick flowers.

Yes, I agree..

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

No, I don't agree

Originally Posted by wolfgang

not really - I've always not needed to know about what's right or wrong from teachers - there's something innate about it to me and, like I wrote above, it's not something someone else gives me but something I can feel inside me or even as a philosophical oneness idea that doing no harm as best as possible also means less harm to the oneness of my true nature.

Perhaps no harm, really means less harm to the physical you?

The teachers who teach right and wrong are mainly disempowerment teachers.. luckily few of those our "new age" teachers

[icutoffheads]

i enjoy this conversation on karma and killing bugs.

karma is a tricky subject. most people view it like this:

Bob punched Sally in the face.
two days later Bob gets punched in the face.

or

Sally steals 567 dollars from a donut shop.
two days later somebody steals money from Sally.

I don't believe it works like that at all, I find that to be a simplistic, almost childish way of viewing karma.

I believe reality is a reflection of YOU. For this example, let's call YOU Bill, just to make things easier.

Bill's mother left his household when he was 12 years old. She went and got remarried, raised another family, leaving Bill with his father. Bill then had trouble maintaining relationships all throughout his life. He repeated the same cycles of people getting close to him, then leaving him. Eventually he wouldn't "let people in" and just stayed to himself. As an adult he realized he had a lot of emotional pain built up inside of him from when his mother left him as a child that he never truly dealt with. This created his constant fear of people leaving him. This is his karma. He needs to "clear" his karma in order to break that cycle because his reality is just going to keep "reflecting" what is inside of him, the pain from his mother leaving him and the fearful thoughts about other people that pain caused. You FEEL your emotions to get it out and to let it go and you understand why it's there in the first place. Otherwise it will literally sit inside of you and create the same situations in your life over and over and over and over until you let it go. This is how I view karma.

Karma is how you feel. Karma is what you got inside of you. Karma is self evident. It's not about getting punched if you punch somebody, although I suppose that if you felt guilty about it and blocked out that guilty feeling it may bring on some type of similar consequence.

karma is optional i suppose once you recognize it, well i guess you just understand it more then and can control it more easily. we're doomed to repeat events until we clear our chests. then we realize we never really had to clear our chest or repeat those events in the first place. it's a tricky sonovabitch.

this is just views on karma.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by themaster

Karma has been presented multiple times through multiple teachers as optional (I didn't say all teachers) meaning all you have to do is ask..

but what do they say about how one opts out of karma ?

Since some teachers have said it was optional.. I say that then depends on the individual doesn't it?? to choose to have/allow or remove/disallow, basically the right way to say it is.. going this way (no karma) is my preference?

I postulate that the self is in karma. Going the way of no karma is a kin to enlightenment. Which is knowing that the self is not the reality of your true nature. So I don't see how it's possible to just choose no karma. You can prefer it as a conceptual way of thinking, like think enlightenment must be a better state than being stuck in an ego bound separate self. But they all come together in my way of thinking - ego is separate, is karma, is not being awake.

I believe a awakening would be death or a real ascension

and that is where no karma is.

It can't be a enemy if you validate it as a equal choice.. and I do.. I simply say I prefer this.. (no karma)

cool

Well, let's be clear shall we.. let's define karma with definitions..

Karma positive definition - not limiting, not enforcing, just creation-reaction at least here in 3d

Karma neutral definition - just is, just does a lot like loa in description

Karma negative definition - punishment for anything you do.. will come back on you.. basically to use alg's quick analogy.. victimize your employee's and bam your window will break.. is one example (originally given)

I'm not sure. it sounds like putting a judgment on something that happens (karma). As I take karma to the most general of meaning - you get what you put in or it is what happens is part of your being here while not awake. good or bad or neutral are qualifications of what happens. or making preferences out of what it is that happens in life. Making preferences, to me, isn't karma.

Let me clarify.. if we our gods.. if we are spiraling outward in billion to a billion to a trillion universes and we expect to explore everything from every perspective.. well in that case than karma doesn't matter because everything must be explored! in every way possible! So even though it is optional via free will and I may choose not to do it.. another me will!

I just look at karma as part of what happens when you go about acting as if you are a separate identity (supposedly an illusion). It comes together. All self entities are in karma, to me, in the way I consider karma to be.

Are you saying god is separate? Because your other statements seem to say the opposite.. so all I can say is I'm confused by this statement..

what is separate is the concept of a self. and I don't see it as the self is a subset of god as if we are a layer or a piece of god. because the layer or the piece is the separate part that is only the illusion of being a self entity in it's own right. God is not separate, in my way of thinking, but our sense of self identity is not god.

Creation is not personal?

the personal self is not what makes the world. the true being of one does.

Our lives our personal, our experiences, our personal.. now you can say well creation is just a force it's not personal cause it works for all of us and in that perspective I can see that right.. but otherwise just another confusing statement perhaps wrapped up in too much philosophy or not enough exampling?

transcendence of being a self exposes creation as being more than just about our personal arena. All the stuff we says is "out there" and not "me" (that you also agree is really part of our true nature) is creation too. But all that stuff is not the personal self. It is god or one and has no identity.

If we are all copy's of the one.. how can anything not be personal..?? we're here to look at ourselves in different configurations of this and that.. of this or that.. if I understand our job right at some point we will report back what we have found out about ourselves

I don't see it as we are copies of the one. It's something that the mind isn't really able to put into terms. the self is not really the self we commonly think it is. There is no "other". If there is no "other" - what is the copy made from?

See once again I have to say what are you talking about.. is this just a terminology problem or just too much philosophy?

too much philosophizing and generalizations - sorry to be so unclear - just typing away.

There's no way to identify with one? I mean come on.. right there is a statement of limitation.. but let's skip that for now..

I'll stand by this one. It's a little bit like a koan. Identification implies subject and object (separation). The only way to identify something is to make it appear as if it is standing all by itself and has boundaries between what it is and what it is not. Now if you want to believe that all is ONE - there is no way to separate out ONE and point to it and say - look over there, there is ONE. Because to do that you have to separate out part of ONE which then makes ONE not true anymore. So it is impossible to put an identity on ONE since there is no way to create a boundary (or you make ONE not true to do that) and you need the boundary to make something to identify with. However, I do say we are already ONE and somehow our minds figured out how to make seem like we are these individualized entities running around.

We all have intuition, ego and even psychic senses (though some of us may call those ego, intuition etc.) we can read each other.. we can see each other for who we are.. so let's assume you're not talking about each other..

Maybe you're talking about "one" as in our original self, our original being that which some people like to call god.. we can't identify with him? is he so high and mighty.. he's outside of our abilities cause were so small and insignificant?

Maybe we have different modeling of what all that is. I wouldn't say god or ONE is high and mighty but I would say to really know or be ONE the self doesn't really exist. So the self can never really be ONE. You can get close and have all sorts of wild experiences. But being awake is probably so transparent that the self is not a hard point of fixed reference that makes parts of of everything.

Now you might be able to say.. we can't understand him cause of our ego's and that may in part be true

But you cannot achieve that which you claim is not possible.. and this statement says something is impossible "There is no way to identify with one"

we can be and already are ONE. the impossible part is to make ONE an identity. It is not a personal thing - not even a thing (subject/object stuff). You as the ego can try to align to ONE or be humble and reap some peace - to the ego can never be ONE by the definition of ego being the illusion of being separated out of ONE.


I'm kind of trying out concepts and its probably not the way to go about this stuff anyway.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by themaster

Quote:

I have already stated this above.. validating it as a equal choice is how you choose something else.. I am not above karma.. I just choose not to allow karma.. I prefer no karma

well making killing isn't what really happens in the ideal world and it's more like a mutual exchange like a fruit falling from a tree gives itself to us to transfer it's essence into us.

hahaha

Well I am using my ego, of coarse!! Who else would? It's a feeling that higher life forms are more valuable. However ideally nothing has to be killed - maybe die and return it's essence for others. I really don't know. I'm just saying - killing a bug produces way less guilt then - heck I'm not even vegetarian... but I have trouble fishing and never killed a mammal with my own hands.

let's go live there.

This is all ego.. you can read it plain as day Notice how in this statement your playing with back and forth on this idea.. you see you aren't even certain of what you're saying

You feel the negativity just a bit?

oh well - I'm not enlightened and don't pretend to be. Ego (or my conditioning) makes the statements and judges bugs as ok to squash compared to a human.

Budda and Jesus were great beings.. but even they didn't go around and say.. I am so up there.. so good.. I am incapable of murder.. even they actualized it as a equal choice.. what happens when you equalize something is than you choose what you prefer..

yes I see it that way too. it wasn't that they wanted to try not to kill and were tellin people to be that way - but that being peaceful was a natural side effect of their realization.

When you invalidate your choices.. you're not really balanced and your sending yourself onto a path to create/have them happen.. not only that but you invalidate yourself..

What were you saying here.. how can you say it doesn't matter if you are a destructive force you see you are invalidating your choices.. then your projecting on to me and trying to invalidate my choices.. projection is a sign you don't understand yourself and as such, you try to tell others how to live and how to be.. as you should already know.. (and probably do ) you should let others do what they want and you should do what you want

I am not invalidating my choices. I am saying, to me, spiritual growth also is peaceful growth. to go on about killing being no matter seems contrary to the peaceful growth aspect of spiritual growth. I don't ascribe to a path of external spiritual growth of trying to do the right thing based on what other's have experienced. I do however go with feeling from inner guidance of my connection to source or god or ONE. anyway...

You see in validating our choices.. in any second I could kill a 100 humans, a 100 bee's a 100 cows (doesn't matter).. I validate my truth and my choices.. but in validating them.. then I just don't need to choose them.. I just lean the other way.. that's how you get that thing you see as "harmony"

I'm lossing the context, sorry. I don't get what doesn't matter or what you are on about validating choices or not.

I wouldn't call them bad like you.. none of us our bad

But I would call them teachers of disempowerment, yes..

yes that's why I put "bad" in quotes. it is what ever it is.

However I wouldn't call a teacher who said this.. a teacher of disempowerment.. "you can kill if you like.. there's no retribution.. I'm not suggesting it.. but I'm just reminding you of a option you have when your here.. do what you like?"

"why are you not suggesting it wise teacher?"

Yes, I agree..

No, I don't agree

bummer - to each their own. of coarse some people don't like to be treated as you like to be treated yourself. but in general I've thought it works pretty good - in that you have to know what you prefer and feels good to you to then be able to treat others that way too.

Perhaps no harm, really means less harm to the physical you?

The teachers who teach right and wrong are mainly disempowerment teachers.. luckily few of those our "new age" teachers

harm has many issues. harm in general is infringing on someone else's path, perhaps.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by icutoffheads

we're doomed to repeat events until we clear our chests.

That is a somewhat more accurate way to put it. But the picture is not quite complete.

The word "doomed" suggests, again, the negative perspective that themaster possesses. However, karma is value-free, judgment-free. All it means is that you keep getting events, circumstances and things that correspond to what you think about.

So for instance suppose you have deep beliefs that in life, you are successful, capable, lucky, popular and talented. Well, correspondingly, events in your life will keep showing up that way.

In other words, you are "doomed to repeat" those events until you "clear your chest". But here of course the word "doomed" looks inappropriate because of its negative connotations.

------------------------------------------

You can regard your karma as the sum total of all your mental conditioning (memories, beliefs, views etc). All this mental conditioning keeps attracting and creating the corresponding types of life situations, events and circumstances in your life. One fine day, you alter this piece or that piece, in your own head, and your reality changes.

"Presence in the now" - Wolfgang mentioned this - is relevant in this discussion, because when you are fully present in the moment, the result is that in that moment, you are not under the influence of your past memories, previous beliefs and old attitudes. In other words, you are fully free to choose your response, to whatever faces you in that moment. Of course, whatever faces you in that moment has also appeared there, due to your previous karma.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

let's go live there.

It's coming.. so just wait and see..

I don't see this conversation going anywhere.. I want to go.. so I'll let your statements stand and my stand for now..

Originally Posted by wolfgang

but what do they say about how one opts out of karma ?

Release the Need > Uriel Heals

One method involves.. meeting with the "lords of karma" it's a meditation.. (I couldn't find any information that was a method with a quick search.. so you'll have to do your own research)

And here's the ego way

YouTube - Bashar Karma

Also you may find some more methods.. information on the orginal "More on Karma" thread..

More on Karma

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

The word "doomed" suggests, again, the negative perspective that themaster possesses.

Do I have a negative view of karma?

I find it interesting you think so..

Or am I just offering a freeing idea.. a unlimited idea?

[rei]

while the Lords of Karma do not automatically release you from your karma, there is a process discussed in this book Amazon.com: Essential Energy Balancing: An Ascension Process (9781580910286): Diane Stein: Books

the process is important, because the wording is important.

again, they don't always say yes. it depends on what you planned before you came here, and sometimes Lady Nada is called in to discuss the situation.

but, i don't think karma necessarily blocks you on your path. when you balance or resolve karma then you usually jump forward, so if you are stuck (more accurately, if you feel stuck) it could be more that you're still working through your karma - and less the karma itself - that is the issue.