Measuring Intention-Manifestation

[Kindred]

Has anyone here tried measuring intention-manifestation to see how strongly their intentions affect reality? Kind of like Steve's one million dollar experiment but with something to compare against or probabilities.

I've doubted LoA for nearly 5 years but always had a shard of belief that it might work because the placebo and nocebo effects have been proven again and again. However, lately I've been getting too many synchronicities to ignore LoA. My intuition is telling me, "You're ready to start manifesting, go for it!" But my logic is telling me, "Hold up! Show me some data, honey!"

I tried a small coin flipping experiment to see what I could come up with for numbers. I tried flipping a coin 900 times. The first 450 trials I intended heads, and the second 450 trials I intended tails. This was to rule out any bias of the coin (which it did towards heads). The results were statistically significant at the 5% level with a p-value of 0.045 (53% success, 476/900 trials).

I'm going to try with dice tomorrow and intend now for a lower p-value in tomorrow's experiment. Once I see a p-value less than 0.001 (for comparison, that's 55% success, 497/900), my logic's belief in IM will be set in stone.

[SatvikBeri]

I believe the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research lab has done many similar experiments, with small, but statistically significant results.

Edit: It should be noted that pretty strong criticism of the work exists: The Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

[nicbrahms]

Hi

do what I did in that do the physics research, quantum physics behind LOA.

I can't help thinking what you are doing is a waste of time, but then I guess if you want to do it that way that is entirely your prerogative.

However, why not intend something small and see if it manifests. I started with manifesting a certain coloured car going by me, yellow of all colours.

Anyway good luck my friend with the die throw and coin toss.

Oh and perhaps you have manifested your indecisiveness about this, are you indecisive in life in general? Hell you have successfully manifested 5 years of indecisiveness about LOA.

Intend for the truth about it, that way you are not influencing your beliefs one way or the other. Then the truth will reveal itself.

Oh and your indecisiveness seems to be contagious, I have just edited this post 3 times. Weird. Make that 4.

Love, light and luck.

Nic Brahms

[nicbrahms]

I just thought, I got the perfect experiment for you to show you that your thoughts influence your reality.

Take 8 carrots, cut the ends off, you know the green sprouty ends.

Put 4 each into bowls with water, just enough to cover them.

Will hate thoughts to one bowl, i.e I hate, you are ugly, you don't deserve to be etc.

Will love thoughts to the other bowl, i.e. love you, grow as God intended, be beautiful and big and green etc.

Now do that once, twice every day and see what happens. Remember keep your thoughts pure for each bowl or the experiment won't work.

Let me know how it goes, and perhaps now you have manifested a way to know the truth.

Love, light and luck

Nic Brahms

[Kindred]

I've already had many intentions manifest and I continue to do so. My most recent big one was intending guidance to come for my 2010 focus. Fifty-three minutes later after stating my #1 goal on the board, Steve's latest newsletter was sitting my inbox, written as if word-for-word for my focus and primary goal.

My intuition knows I can manifest, my logic is curious to measure it and prove my manifestations. I do not see a waste of time in this pursuit because the more aligned my mind is to believing IM, the stronger my manifestations will become.

Edit: I have finished my dice experiment. I did 3600 trials and achieved a p-value of 0.0175, 18% were successful trials versus 16.666...% expected by chance.

[nicbrahms]

Originally Posted by Kindred

I've already had many intentions manifest and I continue to do so. My most recent big one was intending guidance to come for my 2010 focus. Fifty-three minutes later after stating my #1 goal on the board, Steve's latest newsletter was sitting my inbox, written as if word-for-word for my focus and primary goal.

My intuition knows I can manifest, my logic is curious to measure it and prove my manifestations. I do not see a waste of time in this pursuit because the more aligned my mind is to believing IM, the stronger my manifestations will become.

Edit: I have finished my dice experiment. I did 3600 trials and achieved a p-value of 0.0175, 18% were successful trials versus 16.666...% expected by chance.

LOL, my friend you are cute and very funny.

I will leave you to it, although I still think the experiments I have stated would help you more.

You could be influencing the result of the die throw and coin toss, ever think of that. Check out the double slit experiment.

Ciao Ciao

Love, light and peace.

You remind me of the mad hatter, everyone else is busy arranging their lives and you are busy throwing die and coins to find the truth. Bless you you have made me smile today.

Nic Brahms

[Tom Booth]

Hi Kindred (and everybody),

I like your experimental approach.

I just joined this forum a few minutes ago, but have been reading for a couple days. Seems to be right up my ally.

Anyway, you could probably say that I started out as the ultimate skeptic as far as all this LOA stuff goes, but I had grown up in a religious family - was really fed up with religion generally by the time I was 17 and wanted to get it behind me and move on with my life, but also felt that I couldn't do that until I proved that it was all a crock.

To make a long story short-er, after reading everything I could find about religion, mysticism, philosophy etc. I finally decided that there was at least one thing of a religious nature that could be proven objectively or scientifically to be wrong. In scientific terms, it appeared that there was one type of alleged religious experience that was "falsifiable" and that was some of the claims of physical "manifestations", more or less of the "Creative Visualization" or "Law of Attraction" variety.

So my first effort or experiment was actually an attempt to prove that if I followed all the directions and got no results then I could put all this religion stuff behind me once and for all and just get on with living my life.

That is - I really wanted to prove it wrong!

Fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, over 30 years later I still haven't been able to prove it wrong. That is, no matter what "impossible" thing I "visualize" or "intend" (whatever you want to call it), I just keep getting results that I can't just dismiss as "coincidence".

It has been very frustrating.

LOL

I might also mention that throughout all of this I started out shooting for an actual out-of-thin-air type manifestation or literal materialization that only a few of the more out-there type books of the LOA genre actually talk about or suggest is really possible. (and also some general books on Yoga, Buddhsm (Siddhis), Spiritualism (Apports), and "channeled" stuff etc.)

Generally, when I try to tell people about the results of some of these experiments even the most ardent LOA believers seem to think I'm crazy or just hallucinating...

But in short, after some 30 years of experimenting, I've come to the tentative conclusion that it seems literal materializations are actually possible.

Unfortunately, as hard as I've tried, I haven't met anyone else who has had these kinds of actual experiences or who doesn't think I must just be hallucinating or something and I can't seem to get anyone else to take a look at this.

Maybe I'll have better luck here as this seems to be a common topic in this forum i.e. are, or are not such things really possible ?

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Tom Booth

Fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, over 30 years later I still haven't been able to prove it wrong. That is, no matter what "impossible" thing I "visualize" or "intend" (whatever you want to call it), I just keep getting results that I can't just dismiss as "coincidence".

It has been very frustrating.

LOL

I could do with a little frustration now and then Seriously, welcome to the board, I look forward to reading your posts!

Generally, when I try to tell people about the results of some of these experiments even the most ardent LOA believers seem to think I'm crazy or just hallucinating...

For what little it's worth, a past net-acquaintance of mine claimed to have the same mind-bending ability! Assuming he was 100% honest with me, I expect he's moved on to the 'parallel world' he often spoke of... Brr...

[Tom Booth]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

... a past net-acquaintance of mine claimed to have the same mind-bending ability! Assuming he was 100% honest with me,...

I'd be very interested in the details, if he gave them.

i.e. method & results obtained.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Tom Booth

I'd be very interested in the details, if he gave them.

i.e. method & results obtained.

No details, unfortunately. We were only in contact for a few months, and he had the knack for controlling a conversation. He did seem convinced that Richard Bach's "Illusions" was key to understanding his mode of existence, and suggested I read it, which I did.

As you might guess, I'm keenly interested in YOUR methods

[Tom Booth]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

No details, unfortunately...

Rats!

He did seem convinced that Richard Bach's "Illusions" was key to understanding his mode of existence,

I read Bach's "Jonathan Livingston Seagull". Can't say as it actually influenced me all that much. That was a very long time ago. I'll have to check out his other book "Illusions" now.

As you might guess, I'm keenly interested in YOUR methods

I can't say as my methods were very much different than anyone else's, other than perhaps in intent.

That is, from the start, I was only interested in seeing if it was possible to "materialize" an actual physical object so I tried to guard against "visualizing" anything ordinary that might just show up by some "coincidence".

First I just read and read and read anything and everything I could find on the subject until I felt I had a clear understanding of the theory and exactly what would be required.

I was highly skeptical of the whole idea actually, and as I mentioned, I was more interested at the time in proving it wrong than proving it right as I had grown up in a very strict religious environment of the fundamentalist variety and just wanted to be free of religion altogether - So the most difficult aspect of it, of following the general instructions as I understood them at the time - was trying to "believe" what I knew was impossible and actually hoped to prove wrong.

One of the main "instructions" I was following was actually a passage from the Bible Mark 11:23 - which I had always been taught to interpret figuratively but now due to my reading, I was beginning to think might be interpreted literally:

Mark 11:23 "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him.

The problem, of course was the passage: "does not doubt in his heart at all but believes that what he says will happen"

There are, of course, many other similar passages in the NT and the same basic idea is repeated in nearly all the books I was reading.

How could I believe what I didn't believe ?

I struggled with this for days. The rest was just imagination or "pretending" the way I took it, Like a child playing "make believe".

I was also influenced by Carlos Castaneda and what he wrote about "stopping the internal dialogue" as being the "key to sorcery" and having many Bible reference books on hand, including the original Greek text and Greek reference works I also found it interesting that "Prayer" in the new testament is translated from a Greek term that literally means to hold the mind in silence - so I was able to relate Jesus's "not doubting in the heart" to Don Juan's "stopping the internal dialogue".

Still, arriving at a THEORY of how this is SUPPOSED to work was very different from actually believing in the impossible.

Every time I sat down to "Visualize" some intention my mind was literally flooded with a torrent of doubts so much so that it was overwhelming to the point where I just gave up in frustration several times and just felt that the instructions were just literally impossible.

Jesus had also stated that it would only take a very small amount of "Faith" to move mountains, "the size of a grain of mustard seed". I interpreted that to mean that if I could attain such a state of mind for even an instant it would meet the requirements, but again this seemed like a literal impossibility in itself.

Finally, after days and days of this and giving up in frustration over and over again, - after a long struggle I finally came up with a method for overcoming this problem and reaching a state of "one pointed concentration" on the intention to materialize something - at least temporarily.

I was only able to maintain this state of complete internal silence for what seemed like an instant, but I felt I had achieved the goal and had succeeded in "visualizing" completely and fully as instructed.

When, however, I opened my eyes and nothing happened. The thing I had decided to visualize did not "materialize" instantly right there before my eyes my ordinary rational thought processes came flooding back along with all the "doubts" I had managed to suspend temporarily.

I thought: "It didn't work".

Well good, I thought, now I can get on with my life and stop worrying about all this.

Unfortunately, about two weeks later, the exact thing that I had "visualized" that I thought was "impossible" and that I thought didn't even exist in the world - (as far as I was concerned, I thought I had invented it off the top of my head) - showed up on my table exactly as I had pictured it right there on the same table where I had visualized it.

When I took it out of the box, Something I had never before seen in my life, It took a while to register. There was the exact image of the thing I spent all that time trying to "visualize" - exactly as I had pictured it in my mind.

I had forgotten all about the "experiment" by that time.

To say the least, I was discombobulated.

I was in something of a total state of shock for some time after that.

Well, the books did say that on the first few attempts the "precipitation" might not manifest directly but might rather come through some "indirect" means.

Well, so, OK.

Suddenly I could no longer say that the experiment simply failed. The damn thing I thought I had invented did exist after all.

I would have to try again. This time with something even MORE impossible.

It went on like that year after year. Sometimes it took several months for me to recover from the shock when yet one more "impossible" thing would happen and I would have to take a break and quit experimenting until I felt I had gotten back to "normal" - though at times, that hardly seemed possible.

Finally, once I started taking this sort of thing almost for granted, I did start getting what seemed like "materializations" or instantaneous "manifestations" of various sorts.

Sorry if this is a little sketchy as to details... like what exactly I was trying to "materialize" each time and what the mind-numbing results were each time, but right now I'm just trying to provide a brief general overview.

It's kind of hard to sum up so many experiments in one post.

BTW, once I started getting some actual results - there wasn't a whole lot of room for doubts, or rather, it became easier and easier to set them aside until after about three or four such seeming "miracles" or what I guess you could call "successful" experiments, it was no longer an issue. That is, silencing the flood of doubts and negative thinking was no longer an issue. Getting up the nerve to try it again often took quite a bit of time and finally taking responsibility for the results - THAT I found out from experience is a NECESSITY if you wish to maintain sanity with this sort of thing, otherwise you will always be looking over your shoulder for the "Men in Black" or looking up for the UFO's or something that are making this stuff happen.

For a while I was really driving myself crazy looking for "explanations". The only cure seemed to be taking stock of the fact that whatever explanation one might choose to come up with, the stuff never happened unless I did such an "experiment" so ultimately, I had to take responsibility for that.

[Acting Like Godot]

Sounds fun, Tom.

[Tom Booth]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Sounds fun, Tom.

LOL

It HAS been sometimes.

A few times, positively exhilarating - like there were a couple of experiments that included my kids as participants. That was awesome.

There were other times - not so much though. Mostly due to my not taking my own advice about responsibility.

Like figuring, well, that's REALLY impossible so it doesn't matter if I try THAT (some not-so-nice intent) since it will probably never happen... but then it does happen and you're left with the rather unpleasant consequences of your own actions.

There is a reason for the warnings against envy, covetousness, anger etc.

I would suggest resisting any temptation to try any "manifesting" that may be prompted or inspired by such negative thoughts or emotions. I've read that such emotions are much closer to materiality and therefore actually much EASIER to manifest physically than Love and Light. This is apparently all too true.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Tom Booth

Rats!

Ditto! He did admit to having used DMT, among other mind-altering substances. I sometimes wonder if he found a chemical 'shortcut' to his method (I'd never go for that myself)...

I read Bach's "Jonathan Livingston Seagull". Can't say as it actually influenced me all that much. That was a very long time ago. I'll have to check out his other book "Illusions" now.

It won't surprise you to learn that my old pal had a low opinion of JLS, as well as works that came after "Illusions"...

So the most difficult aspect of it, of following the general instructions as I understood them at the time - was trying to "believe" what I knew was impossible and actually hoped to prove wrong.

Is it possible that your hostile yet open-minded approach immunized you against becoming attached to the outcome?

The rest was just imagination or "pretending" the way I took it, Like a child playing "make believe".

The only conscious manifesting I can recall doing, if it was that, was in childhood... Maybe there's something to the lighthearted let's-pretend mindset as well?

I was also influenced by Carlos Castaneda and what he wrote about "stopping the internal dialogue"

If this is the same as what I've come to think of as 'mind quieting' then maybe I'd best get back to that practice as well!

Sorry if this is a little sketchy as to details... like what exactly I was trying to "materialize" each time and what the mind-numbing results were each time, but right now I'm just trying to provide a brief general overview.

It's kind of hard to sum up so many experiments in one post.

That's OK, I am more interested in the process than the particulars

Getting up the nerve to try it again often took quite a bit of time and finally taking responsibility for the results - THAT I found out from experience is a NECESSITY if you wish to maintain sanity with this sort of thing, otherwise you will always be looking over your shoulder for the "Men in Black" or looking up for the UFO's or something that are making this stuff happen.

If your ability is as literal as you hint, I could see where you'd be well served to avoid doing so; sometimes I wonder if alleged alien abductees are in fact generating thoughtforms to produce the experience...

[Tom Booth]

BTW, SatvikBeri above mentioned Lab research.

That reminded me of Ted Owens.

He was a Duke University student and clerical assistant in the Parapsychology Laboratory.

He claimed it was just as easy to produce large-scale effects as it was to influence dice.

Mind Over Matter

Towards the bottom of the above link.

The guy seems to have been (or became) something of an irresponsible maniac. Getting furious at people when they doubted his powers and vowing to ruin their lives - apparently "creating" very destructive weather phenomenon like hurricanes etc. resulting in massive destruction of property and loss of life.

A lesson in what not to do.

From some of my own experiences, I can't dismiss the possible reality of his claims.

Unfortunately, I think the reality is that we (I mean humanity in general) have all been doing this sort of thing unknowingly and unaware - creating destructive manifestations of one sort or another in the world - not even realizing that our thoughts have been and are playing a role in it all.

That's one reason I think that these kind of scientific experiments are important. People need to wake up, and I'm afraid a majority of people aren't going to believe "What the Bleep" or "The Secret" or anything else that isn't rigorously proven or scientifically validated.

[Tom Booth]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

Ditto! He did admit to having used DMT, among other mind-altering substances. I sometimes wonder if he found a chemical 'shortcut' to his method (I'd never go for that myself)...

I've managed to avoid that route also, though I've read quite a bit of the psychedelic literature and find it very interesting in relation to all this...

particularly with the discovery of "endogenous DMT" Apparently the pineal gland in the brain releases the stuff during meditation, Near Death Experiences, Childbirth - and during sleep or prolonged darkness (possibly the reason for the "hallucinations" we call dreams ?) So - can it really be avoided ?

Is it possible that your hostile yet open-minded approach immunized you against becoming attached to the outcome?

Originally I followed the recommendation from one book I read: "Studies In Alchemy" to start out with something arbitrary or of little or no consequence so as to avoid complications due to emotional investment. I'm not sure about "immunized" but generally speaking, the intent or goal of my experiments (once having discovered that it apparently worked) was to produce, if possible, objective physical manifestations that could be studied and measured under laboratory conditions.

There was hardly ever any "attachment" to either success or failure in any case and the results or "intention", that is, the object to be materialized was usually decided upon at random - for no particular reason, or as circumstances suggested it. That is, a simple mineral or element or even a single molecule, if it could really be materialized, might do for research purposes. So... Right, I wasn't staking my life on the outcome - except maybe a little where my kids were involved.

I really didn't want to look like a fool if I asked my kids to "visualize" something and nothing happened - but by that time I was well along. I started out with these experiments before I had any kids so that was about 9 years of prior experience.

The only conscious manifesting I can recall doing, if it was that, was in childhood... Maybe there's something to the lighthearted let's-pretend mindset as well?

I think children, unless warped by their parents or life in general in some way take to "visualization" like fish to water - it seems natural to them.

I also find it interesting that the pineal gland, that is believed by some to be the source of endogenous DMT is most active in children between the ages of 7 and puberty - then it apparently, in most cases begins to shrink or atrophy in adulthood.

If this is the same as what I've come to think of as 'mind quieting' then maybe I'd best get back to that practice as well!

I should probably mention that some prior experience with "mindfulness" meditation was undoubtedly of great assistance. That is, just observing ones own thoughts, emotions and actions throughout the day.

Without a great deal of self awareness, I don't think I would have ever been able to tackle my deeper internal doubts or "internal dialogue" at all.

It seems a state of inner mental and emotional harmony or alignment is the "key". That is, no conflicts - one thought or one idea against another - Everything, thoughts, emotion, will, desire, belief, imagination etc. working together.

In the end, I've come to the conclussion that no special state of mind or "Trance" is necesary. Inner silence is not even that important - some thinking or "internal dialogue" might even be helpful to a degree so long as it is in alignment with the goal.

That's OK, I am more interested in the process than the particulars

OK, but if you want any particulars - feel free to ask. Though I don't want to monopolize the thread.

I think the particulars are of enormous importance from a scientific perspective. Generalizations can be colored and sometimes misleading. I like points of fact i.e: "I saw a white light" rather than "I saw Jesus!".

If your ability is as literal as you hint,...

I'd like to make clear that I make no claim whatsoever to any "special ability". I think I've only managed, perhaps, to become a little more aware of something that we all do continually - knowingly or unknowingly and applied it to a specific area of experimentation for research purposes.

Otherwise, I hope I've done more than "hint" - I AM talking about what appears to be quite literal materializations or physical manifestations, though I don't want to overstate the point - as such cases were relatively rare.

The majority of results were of the "ordinary" indirect or "Law of Attraction" sort. But some few I could find no way to explain other then as either literal materializations or SHARED visual/tactile 3D hallucinations (or something) As I say, generalizations can be misleading and I hope not to overstate the issue.

Unfortunately, at this point, the evidence rests almost entirely upon my own testimony and credibility - (or that of dead writers or discarnate entities like Seth or St. Germain) I think I would love to get together with your former acquaintance you spoke of - or for that matter, anyone who might be interested in putting such research on a more scientific footing.

I should also add that I certainly don't claim that I could reproduce any of the results "on demand" though I'm confident that it might very well be possible even with some degree of skepticism present - as I started out myself as skeptical as anyone could possibly be I think.

I've also conducted a few group experiments with completely inexperienced and skeptical participants, though again, the "positive results" were of the "ordinary" attraction type, (except in one case with the kids) though, in my opinion, unmistakable nevertheless.

sometimes I wonder if alleged alien abductees are in fact generating thoughtforms to produce the experience...

That is an interesting question in connection with the Ted Owens case. He claimed to be able to produce UFOs on demand and apparently vacillated between believing that he was receiving his powers FROM the UFOs and believing HE was "materializing" the UFOs as a kind of PK phenomenon.

I recall my own episode of trying to explain what was happening as the intervention of Alien Intelligences or some other spooks. I suspect Owens never entirely got over that hurdle.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Tom Booth

OK, but if you want any particulars - feel free to ask. Though I don't want to monopolize the thread.

Blather away, on any point you wish! You've already given me sufficient reason to believe you're going to be a tremendous contributor to this forum. I'll have to reread the above after I've gotten some (overdue ) rest...

I think I would love to get together with your former acquaintance you spoke of

I do know that he once posted on an online computer-graphics forum, but the most recent of those entries are many years old, from around the time he dropped out of sight. The few half-hearted attempts I'd made to reach him failed (inactive email, etc.), so at least from my POV he may as well have vanished. I did find an online resume belonging to a former associate of his, but I believe it would have been inappropriate for me to use this info to inquire as to my old pal's whereabouts...

It's always possible that he was operating under an assumed identity, and playing mind games with me, but over time I've been given reason, if still rather bare, to believe he may have indeed been telling the truth. I do miss our conversations about this strange stuff...

[Geiger]

Originally Posted by Tom Booth

I just joined this forum a few minutes ago, but have been reading for a couple days. Seems to be right up my ally.

If you haven't read it already, I think you'll find this thread interesting:

My spiritual guru who resides in Kerala, India, told my parents that my siddhis have transferred into this life from my past life's tapasya (spiritual effort). The one my aunt found out about is called Prapti siddhi which means I can create things from ether.

Me and My Abilities!

Thank you for your insights, it is much appreciated!

[Wax Frog]

Finally, a poster we can all count on! [sorry, couldn't resist! ]

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Tom Booth

the intent or goal of my experiments (once having discovered that it apparently worked) was to produce, if possible, objective physical manifestations that could be studied and measured under laboratory conditions... That is, a simple mineral or element or even a single molecule, if it could really be materialized, might do for research purposes.

So you have the means and background to do 'hard science' on this then? Very good news, as we frequently get skeptics here, and precious few of us, myself included, are equipped to deal with them on that footing.

It seems a state of inner mental and emotional harmony or alignment is the "key". That is, no conflicts - one thought or one idea against another - Everything, thoughts, emotion, will, desire, belief, imagination etc. working together.

Now I see why spiritual masters take a lifetime to work on themselves. Odd as it seems to me, I never fully grasped the challenge until I read this. Thank you!

I think the particulars are of enormous importance from a scientific perspective.

Definitely, and I also understand these things can't be rushed, but I hope you won't fault me for being eager to get to the applied-science phase

I'd like to make clear that I make no claim whatsoever to any "special ability". I think I've only managed, perhaps, to become a little more aware of something that we all do continually - knowingly or unknowingly and applied it to a specific area of experimentation for research purposes.

Sorry, I could have phrased better; I meant precisely what you've stated. I was writing from the standpoint of someone whose (apparent) deliberate manifestations are few and relatively unremarkable.

Otherwise, I hope I've done more than "hint" - I AM talking about what appears to be quite literal materializations or physical manifestations, though I don't want to overstate the point - as such cases were relatively rare.

Hence my keen interest; to mix metaphors (get used to it ), I'm an Ahab in pursuit of a black swan...

But some few I could find no way to explain other then as either literal materializations or SHARED visual/tactile 3D hallucinations (or something) As I say, generalizations can be misleading and I hope not to overstate the issue.

As I said, the black swans are what especially pique my interest My acquaintance claimed to have shown his GF the trick of making an object instantly change color, and also to be in possession of a mass-market music CD from the Seventies, which he said he'd brought with him from an alternate timeline. Sounds crazy, but maybe - fingers crossed - not to you...

[Tom Booth]

Originally Posted by Geiger

If you haven't read it already, I think you'll find this thread interesting:

Yes, thanks, I just spent the past couple of hours reading through it... Though I skimmed through a few parts.

While I found it interesting, towards the end I found myself feeling like vartann expressed - i.e. that "Mystic Girl" was someone pulling a prank or something and also felt rather frustrated at her - to me - vague explanations about ether and heat and whatever about planting a branch from a tree ???

I don't want to be rude or anything and I agree with some of the stuff she had to say about Quantum Physics... Just opinion wise... that logically, if we create reality then reality is arbitrary and what physicists find at the quantum or any other level will just be a reflection of their/our own expectations.

I think that this may be how the wave/particle duality came about in the first place. One physicist working in isolation was sure he'd find waves and did an experiment to prove it and another somewhere else was sure he would find particles and did an experiment to prove it... BOTH experiments worked and both "proved" contradictory theories - through THE SAME EXPERIMENT - and we ended up with two incompatible "truths" which were then brought together - leaving minds boggling as how to reconcile things - or munge them together.

I'd be interested in her opinion about string theory, which I find very interesting.

Beyond that, I didn't find myself resonating much with her theories or her experiences - then she ducked out a few months ago...

But if she comes back, I would be interested in discussing the subject of her ? ummm... horticultural talents or whatever.

Somehow I couldn't find anything objective I could put my finger on, so-to-speak, regarding her "siddhis".

Frankly, I was left kind of clueless by the end of the thread.

I do hope she comes back.

[Tom Booth]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

So you have the means and background to do 'hard science' on this then? Very good news, as we frequently get skeptics here, and precious few of us, myself included, are equipped to deal with them on that footing.

Sorry to dash any high hopes but I'm strictly an armature wannabe "scientist".

I've studied up on Scientific Methodology and my father was studying to be a chemistry professor and had lots of scientific stuff around the house when I was growing up.

I do have an internet friend who says he has the experience and means to do some serious double/triple blind type testing who lives here in NY not too awful far away. We are discussing it at this point, though I'm not sure where that might lead.

But on a positive note, as far as scientific research in this area is concerned...

I think, or I have found in my own case at least, that it is possible to get some very startling results even though taking a very skeptical/scientific approach.

Apparently it is OK to be skeptical before and after an experiment. All that is necessary is to suspend skepticism for a moment at the time of the actual "visualizing". My hope is that even an "Amazing Randi" type might be willing and able to do this... though that remains to be seen I guess, but having a definite method for specifically addressing "negative thinking" seems to me to be an important item that might make progress possible... Though I don't know for sure that it will work for everyone but as I mentioned previously, I have been able to get results in a group of three participants, including myself, where the other two were skeptical and had no prior experience, but were willing to be honest and follow my directions...

That is, if they were having negative thoughts - they would report them and work out some way of resolving them before continuing with the "group intention".

Luckily it seems nearly impossible to actually carry out a vivid "visualization" while simultaneously thinking any other thoughts, negative or otherwise.

The key again, as in "visualizing" alone - also in a group - is alignment of thought. Everybody needs to be in complete agreement about what to visualize down to the last detail.

Reaching an agreement as far as what exactly to intend or visualize as a group is, I think, the most difficult challenge and thinking about and discussing THAT is what takes the most time. Once that is accomplished it is just a matter of everyone "pretending" for a few moments that the visualization or object to be materialized is already manifested - already real.

Then, I have found that it is best to break off the group visualization suddenly and get everybody occupied with thinking about something else - i.e. don't dwell on it, go watch TV or something.

I'll give a specific example:

I was visiting my brother and talking about this stuff and he invited me to stay for supper.

While sitting down to eat, to my embarrassment, he started telling his wife all about it - that I think that I can materialize stuff out of thin air.

I just about sank under the table, I wasn't at all ready for that, but they both wanted me to give a demonstration right then and there.

After I regained my composure, I said OK, but you will both have to participate.

They agreed.

The first order of business then became what to materialize.

Well my brother had one idea and his wife had another and after some discussion the wife decided she wanted a dishwasher. My brother was concerned about the extra money they would have to come up with on the hot water bill or something and after listening to them argue about it for about half an hour I finally broke into the conversation and said:

"Look, what does it matter, I mean, we are talking about materializing a major household appliance out of thin air, there's no point in arguing about it, lets just do it and if the dish washer materializes you guys can argue about whether to install it or use it or not later".

They both shut up.

Then we settled on the dishwasher.

OK, what color ?

The wife wanted the dishwasher we materialized to match the other appliances in the kitchen - stove and refrigerator which all matched but had a rather odd two-tone coloration. Tan in the middle and a darker brown around the edges.

My brother started to say something along the lines that it was impossible to get that finish any more as they don't make appliances with that style finish anymore.

I said it was OK, It's just an experiment. Lets visualize the dishwasher exactly matching the other appliances...

Then the cut-out in the cabinets where the old dishwasher had been taken out might not be the right size for the new dishwasher...

Don't worry, we will visualize a dishwasher that fits exactly right...

So after a while of this sort of discussion we all agreed on the size color etc. and were ready to proceed.

I said OK, look over at the space where the old dishwasher was taken out and then with either your eyes open or closed, whichever you find easier just visualize the dishwasher being there - tan with the brown around the edges.

Then to the wife in particular since it was her idea and she would be the one most frequently using the dishwasher, I asked her to visualize herself going over to the dishwasher and getting dirty dished out of the sink and putting them into the dishwasher - adding the dish washing powder or liquid and closing it and turning it on.

Then I asked her to visualize coming back later and opening it up - visualize all the steam rising out of it and imagine taking out the dishes and putting them away in the cabinet.

Then we all sat there in silence for a while with our eyes closed visualizing together.

After just a moment I broke the silence and said - OK, thats it. Now don't think about it any more, just go watch TV or something for a while.

They did and after that I left.

About a week later my brother told me that he got a call for a job he wanted me to go on with him. So I did.

On the way to the job he told me about the call he received. (By the way, he is a house painter by trade)

As we were on the way to the job he told me about the call he received from a woman who wanted him to take away her old dishwasher as she was getting a new one. He said he thought the call was unusual and that normally he would have just said no but...

We were at the house.

We went in and the woman was telling us that they were bringing over the new dishwasher and she just wanted us to get the old one out as the guys coming to do the new installation told her she would have to get someone else to dispose of the old dishwasher...

We loaded it on the truck and took it to my brothers house.

Later my brother came to me and told me that he had been looking at the dishwasher and had found a piece of silverware jammed in the bottom that kept the sprayer from turning. (he pulled it out easily) He also said that he had the old dishwasher he took out of his own kitchen in the back yard and as the dishwasher we just got didn't match the appliances in his kitchen he was going to try to switch the panels - but when he took the panel out of the door of the dishwasher we just got he discovered that the finish on the other side already matched the appliances in his kitchen exactly. So he just turned the panel around.

He installed the dishwasher and it fit right in. And without the fork jammed in the bottom it worked beautifully.

To my knowledge they are still using it.

As I say, this was not a direct materialization, but under the circumstances I wasn't really expecting any.

Just your typical string of weird coincidences.

My brother seemed rather dumbfounded, but things had gone pretty much as I expected.

Hence my keen interest; to mix metaphors (get used to it ), I'm an Ahab in pursuit of a black swan...

As I said, the black swans are what especially pique my interest...

I'm not familiar with the Ahab/black swan allusion.

My acquaintance claimed to have shown his GF the trick of making an object instantly change color, and also to be in possession of a mass-market music CD from the Seventies, which he said he'd brought with him from an alternate timeline. Sounds crazy, but maybe - fingers crossed - not to you...

Well, sorry again but... I haven't had any experiences involving bringing stuff back from any alternative time line as far as I'm aware, though I did have one really really really freaking weird experience that seemed to involve some sort of time shift - like turning back the clock to undo something really bad that happened. It wasn't actually an "experiment" but it was an application of "visualization" and after it happened I was so dumbfounded that I just dismissed the whole thing from my mind for a long time.

In fact, I had forgotten all about it until about a year ago and had to email my brother not too long ago to verify that it even happened, which he did... but it is really just too weird.

Much weirder than materializing anything out of thin air.

PS.

I also had the wife feel the emotion she would expect to experience while using the dishwasher. (i.e. happy that she didn't have to do dishes in the sink any more or whatever she thought her emotion would be.) and to believe that what she was "pretending" was really real - to take it for granted - like using the dishwasher was an ordinary routine - more or less a kind of guided fantasy - the general idea being to make the visualized experience as vivid and realistic as possible.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Tom Booth

Sorry to dash any high hopes but I'm strictly an armature wannabe "scientist" [etc.]

I can only go by what you post, but it remains clear that you are in a better position to do true research than I! Hopes only mildly dashed...

Then, I have found that it is best to break off the group visualization suddenly and get everybody occupied with thinking about something else - i.e. don't dwell on it, go watch TV or something.

Interesting! I've read that this is why spoon-bending parties are held - supposedly attendees often find their own spoons softening after being distracted by the success of others.

I'm not familiar with the Ahab/black swan allusion.

I hope my never having read the book or seen any adaptation doesn't disqualify me from using a "Moby Dick" reference , but Ahab was the captain who was obsessed with tracking down the titular white whale; black swan comes from a popular expression related to falsifiability - all it takes to disprove the statement that all swans are white is to produce a black one.

In my case, all it would take to finally prove to myself that the skeptics are wrong is to experience one bona-fide manifestation, and I will not rest until I have one (which of course makes detaching difficult for me, but I'm working on it)

Well, sorry again but... I haven't had any experiences involving bringing stuff back from any alternative time line as far as I'm aware, though I did have one really really really freaking weird experience that seemed to involve some sort of time shift - like turning back the clock to undo something really bad that happened...Much weirder than materializing anything out of thin air.

Yep, I'd say that would be on the same order. I am still thrilled to have you here, for aside from previously stated reasons, as the chorus of IM advocates grows so does my confidence in its reality. No way can I have rational conversations with this many people and have them all be delusional or liars

more or less a kind of guided fantasy - the general idea being to make the visualized experience as vivid and realistic as possible.

I'm very good at this, but several weeks of trying only gave a partial and skewed result, which in any case ultimately came about through my actions [sigh]. I must have missed something...

[Karanime]

I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

My first experience with crystal-clear, mind-boggling manifestation was when I was walking to a friend's house from the storm drain sewers. I was with my friend Zack.

Somewhere along the way, I wondered if it were possible to intend for a car to be a certain color. I closed my eyes as we were walking and envisioned a bright red car. No particular model. Just that bright, fire-engine red. The intention was simply any kind of red, but the bright red happened to be what I was visualizing. I opened my eyes and envisioned a red car driving past us.

I heard a car come up, and a bright red Mustang, the exact same color I had in my head, pulled up to the corner and turned right. Out loud, I went, "Holy s**t!"

To this day, Zack still thinks it's a coincidence, so I guess you're not alone. :P

/<3

[Wax Frog]

I had a string of red cars show up for me once, though I wasn't intending for them as such - just identifying with red as part of a thought exercise

[Tom Booth]

"Moby Dick" reference , but Ahab was the captain who was obsessed with tracking down the titular white whale; black swan comes from a popular expression related to falsifiability - all it takes to disprove the statement that all swans are white is to produce a black one.

Thanks, I was searching Google looking for some kind of story involving an "Ahab" AND "black swan", - no wonder I couldn't find anything. - two different stories!

In my case, all it would take to finally prove to myself that the skeptics are wrong is to experience one bona-fide manifestation, and I will not rest until I have one (which of course makes detaching difficult for me, but I'm working on it)

If that is the case, you are fortunate. I experienced many and yet, I was still skepticle... Still am to a degree.

I keep thinking - well if this works then I'll know its real - and it works - then for some reason it doesn't seem that "impossible" after all - so I chalk it up to "coincidence" and try to think of something even MORE impossible.

Well, I finally experienced enough to convince myself,... but then again, maybe I'm crazy. That's one reason I've continued posting these experiences on various forums - for the "reality check". - To see what other people think about it and also in hopes of finding others who have had similar experiences and ultimately, if possible, do some collaborative research & group experiments and maybe - with some help, put this stuff on a more "scientific" footing.

It seems like a lot of progress is being made in that direction already though. At least more so than when I first started.

About "detaching".

It's a funny thing I guess, but I've read conflicting stuff on this point. At least it seemed conflicting to me and I'm not really sure how it might be reconciled.

Many of the older books I've read on "manifesting" by any other name - state that it is necessary to decide what you REALLY want and to have a STRONG desire for it. More than anything in the world.

In fact, one book, by Robert Collier I believe it was either "Secret of the Ages" or "The Law of the Higher Potential" (or both ?) referred to this story - which may have been phrased a little differently in the book, but the basic story has been told in many different ways -

"A youth asked Socrates (Or a Master or Zen Teacher or Buddah...) for the way to enlightenment (Or God or Truth or Faith or whatever). Socrates took the youngster to a lake into which they waded neck-high. Then Socrates pushed the juvenile's head under the water. The youngster struggled desperately, but Socrates kept pushing until the youth was on the verge of drowning. When he came up out of the water gasping for air, Socrates asked, "When you were under the water, what did you want more than anything else in the world?" "Air! I wanted Air!". Socrates explained, "When you want enlightenment as much as you wanted air, then you will find it."

Collier applied the same idea to his version of LOA. That is, when you desire your intended manifestation as much as a drowning man wants air...

How does that reconcile with detachment from the outcome ?

I've tried both methods.

I started out trying to manifest something I had no "attachment" towards. Just an inanimate object, and got no results.

Then I tried thinking what I really wanted to do with my life. What was my true goal in life - and "visualized" something that was in alignment with that - not the life-goal itself, but something that would help me in that direction.

It seemed that having a genuine desire for something that would forward my true goal in life produced much better results - in fact, this was the first time I got results in an "experimental" setting. - A "Law of Attraction" type result where something came to me in a strange way - But something I couldn't just dismiss - but still no actual "materialization".

I actually got the most inexplicable and amazing results just on the theory that we are ALREADY creating the objects around us. Table, chair, computer, car, lamp, bed or whatever - all the things in your environment that you just take for granted without even thinking about it.

Strange as it may sound, this seems like what, at least sometimes, produces real materializations.

Pick up some ordinary object that you are familiar with and that you handle every day - like a hair brush or whatever and just study that for a while and try to figure out how you are creating it.

How are you creating the things that are already there in your environment that you just take for granted ? How do you feel about the hair brush or chair or water glass (or whatever) ? How are you turning that flowing, dancing, vibrating energy you are interacting with into the perception of a "physical object" ?

When you visualize something, and can feel the same way about it as you do about any other ordinary object that you take for granted...

At least for me, that is what has produced the most immediate results.

You almost want to NOT try to manifest the thing. If you ~take for granted that it already exists~ why try to manifest it ?

Do you see what I mean ?

Its like "pretending" that what you want already exists to the degree that you don't have to think about it. You just know it is there.

Like if you came home and parked your car in the garage and then went inside to watch TV. You forget about the car but somewhere in the back of your mind you know it is there in the garage.

For example:

One of the first experiments I did along these lines was an attempt to materialize a gold necklace.

My "method" if you will, was just to imagine the necklace on my dresser, to visualize it there in as much detail as possible.

Then, when I would wake up in the morning I would pick up and put on the imaginary gold necklace while getting dressed for work - just like I was putting on a pair of shoes - that is, I made this into a regular routine so that I would do it automatically, without thinking about it [much].

At night while getting ready for bed I would take the imaginary necklace off and leave it on the dresser while I slept.

In other words, I just treated the ~imaginary~ necklace like any other ordinary possession that I had and took for granted.

Then one day, I came home from work and as I went into the bedroom and started taking stuff out of my pockets to put on the dresser - I saw three gold necklaces on the dresser.

REAL gold necklaces.

I turned to my wife who was sitting on the bed reading a book: "Honey, what are these necklaces doing on my dresser ?"

She says: "What do you mean ?"

"There are three gold necklaces on my dresser. Where did they come from ?"

She says: "Those are YOUR necklaces, silly. You wear them every day."

It was kind of like my blood ran cold at that point. Yeah,... I wear an IMAGINARY gold necklace every day... What the F... (I didn't tell her about the experiment and I didn't think she had ever seen me taking the imaginary necklace off and on).

I didn't know if I was hallucinating... dreaming... was my wife pulling a prank ? Did these necklaces ACTUALLY materialize... Why did my wife think I wore Gold necklaces every day ? I never wore a REAL gold necklace in my life! I don't normally wear jewelry...

I was literally freaking out.

I started going crazy... trying to contain myself - but asking everybody I could think of.. "Do YOU know anything about the Gold necklaces on my dresser ?"

I asked my wife, mother, brother, father... until it seemed there wasn't anyone left to ask.

Two weeks later and I still had not solved the mystery. The damn things must have really materialized!

Then my wife told me FINALLY that my sister in law, who lived down the street said that she had come over to return my necklaces but as nobody was home she just came in and left them on my dresser.

Return MY necklaces ?

But they aren't my necklaces!

After a little more confusion and some phone calls it turned out that someone visiting my sister in law lost her necklaces when her purse tipped over on the floor and didn't know where she had lost them but my sister in law found them on the floor and for some reason concluded that they were mine and "returned" them... but now finding out that they were not mine she made some calls and found out that her friend who had been over visiting had lost them and now wanted them back.

Phew!

I was just about ready to go out of my mind there.

But that was good preparation for what was to come later.

But throughout all these experiments, for me at least, this "taking for granted" and treating the "visualized" object or imagined scenario (intention or whatever) as-if it were already real - to the extent of treating it like you would any ordinary object or circumstance that you normally take for granted... It seemed to be primarily this attitude or approach that lead to immediate or direct materializations or near instantaneous physical manifestations. (Or shared 3D Hallucinations-indistinguishable from "reality" ?) Of course, along with all that "taking for granted", generally, an alignment of thought, feeling, belief, imagination, etc. as previously stated - which knowingly or not - is how you feel about "ordinary" objects.

We are all already "in alignment" and "taking for granted" everything that exists... Which is, apparently, why everything exists in the first place. Or something like that, maybe, or seems like.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Tom Booth

I keep thinking - well if this works then I'll know its real - and it works - then for some reason it doesn't seem that "impossible" after all - so I chalk it up to "coincidence" and try to think of something even MORE impossible.

Here's how I look at it - I wouldn't give a hill of beans if this literally worked or merely had some hidden 'rational' explanation. Results are what I'm after; I'm a practical guy

Well, I finally experienced enough to convince myself,... but then again, maybe I'm crazy. That's one reason I've continued posting these experiences on various forums...

You've hit on another philosophical point of mine - I wouldn't care if this meant going insane, so long as my mad reality was the only one I subsequently experienced, and would continue in a coherent and pleasant fashion. The net effect would be the same until my death in the 'outer reality', at which point the truth of my situation would cease to matter anyway.

[snip preamble to potential IM-ey goodness ]

Pick up some ordinary object that you are familiar with and that you handle every day - like a hair brush or whatever and just study that for a while and try to figure out how you are creating it.

How are you creating the things that are already there in your environment that you just take for granted ? How do you feel about the hair brush or chair or water glass (or whatever) ? How are you turning that flowing, dancing, vibrating energy you are interacting with into the perception of a "physical object" ?

When you visualize something, and can feel the same way about it as you do about any other ordinary object that you take for granted...

At least for me, that is what has produced the most immediate results.

You almost want to NOT try to manifest the thing. If you ~take for granted that it already exists~ why try to manifest it ?

Do you see what I mean ?

Wow! Sometimes the most obvious approaches remain opaque! I now better understand the saying, "You can't see the forest for the trees"! The above has tied together some ideas and concepts I've run across in the past, such as the importance of both appreciating and taking responsibility for what is in my life already.

I see now that I've subconsciously been thinking of things I could manifest as somehow having a special, almost 'magical' nature, but if IM/LoA is true then this notion MUST be wrong; as things I manifest must be of the same 'stuff' as what I already experience, everything in my experience would then be equally 'magical'!

[an aside: I like the fact that my 'aha' moment came at 5:55 EST ; I get 5-based syncros alot]

Its like "pretending" that what you want already exists to the degree that you don't have to think about it. You just know it is there.

Ah, so maybe this is what is really behind the 'detachment' idea. That's a bit of hurdle to get past, seems to me. It's like being asked to lie to myself.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

I am still thrilled to have you here, for aside from previously stated reasons, as the chorus of IM advocates grows so does my confidence in its reality. No way can I have rational conversations with this many people and have them all be delusional or liars

I'm glad too. I know I'm not a liar, but then I could be delusional.

Wait, what if I am delusional, and I am just having a big hallucination and dreaming you, Tom Booth and everybody else into my existence?

[You cannot get away from subjective reality - that is my point ]

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

[You cannot get away from subjective reality - that is my point ]

You and me both.... or is it all just me?

[Acting Like Godot]

Maybe both of us are ... Tom's delusions.

And maybe all of us are Tom, and Tom is all of us. We're one big happy ... oneness.