IM and social responsibility

[cylon]

vinylfire do you think that everyone here went straight from a to z? We have all asked these questions of ourselves, and tried to fit this into our previous world-views. I've been here for a few years and it's only been recently that I've made peace with many of my own issues and have moved away from seeing problems in the world that need to be solved, to just appreciating my place in the world and allowing the world to be as it is without my needing to change it in my own image. I do want to be helpful to people on the board, but beyond that, I don't expect much more other than continued good feelings for myself.

Someday you might make that shift where these burning questions just sort of gently dissolve and you start "trusting" that things will be ok and that it is NOT a war that must be fought.

But until that shift happens inside of you, no amount of words I say or anyone else says can make you see it our way... these are things you just have to experience first hand. Words aren't always such an effective way of communicating, but that's what we use (for now at least).

I guess all I can do is describe what it feels like to allow some of these concerns to fade into the background, and realize there is no need to feel guilt or shame or anything else like that.

I've read so many LOA books, and discussed this with a lot of people and often I felt I was just reading words that I wanted to believe but I couldn't, so they weren't "true" for me. But now after reaching many of these conclusions on my own (we are all very similar in our make-up... I truly believe all paths that are genuine lead to the same place) I just "get" the truth on a level that is satisfying to me. It's like "Oh, NOW I get it.... so THAT'S what they were talking about". Something starts to click and it makes perfect sense. Things that at first may have seemed very child-like and naive to me, or overly simplistic and not thorough enough, now sound to me like deep wisdom. It just seems to work that way.

But until that time comes for you, you will still have these concerns, and these will just be words to you. And your path may very well not include some of these concepts, and that's cool too.

But stick around, I'm sure you can gain a lot of value in your quest for answers.

[vinylfire]

Originally Posted by Angela

If these things are infinite, then there IS NO majority stakehold on them. You can't have most of the limitless.

See that's my sticky point. The mathematical, economic, geological observations tell me that these things are finite. Yes, people say that's buying into scarcity thinking. Why would people think material resources are scarce and have wars over them etc if they had no reason to think this? It would seem more natural to see abundance than scarcity. Why have generations of people over time and the majority of people in the world today 'misperceive' reality? Are they all negative and delusional? Then thinking like this makes me wonder if I am the one that is going to become delusional if I start believing in things like infinite resources, and that my delusion will lead me to act harmfully. When I said 'imagining' that these were infinite..I meant wrongly believing them to be so. I kind of get scared that I'll be abandoning my common sense if I get into thinking like that.
I guess what cylon said is right to an extent...words won't really sort out my basic dilemmas or cause some sort of paradigm shift. I wish they would coz I want all these things to be true, I'm just having some blocks in certain areas of the material. I think the way here is just to read what people say,listen to my own inner voice and slowly come in to my own truth.


Thank you. I HAVE a system that allows more people to do the same. I encourage more people to do the same, if they choose to. It feels good. I choose feeling good for everyone who chooses it for themselves (surprisingly, that does not include everyone ). My appreciation of money and other forms of abundance includes appreciation for how having lots of it can make a positive difference for others. I just love that![/QUOTE]

[Angela]

Well, take a look at people who are successful in the way you'd like to be successful -- that is, they have plenty and they also are making a positive difference in the world. If you are having the desires you have (plenty AND responsibility) you can be pretty sure others have had the same desires. Who has achieved those desires? Read about them and interview them. Ask them about their beliefs and attitudes, and model them -- try them on.

The nice thing about beliefs and attitudes is that you can try them on -- you don't have to make a commitment to them -- and see how they work in getting you the results you want. You can make adjustments, and you can have your old beliefs and attitudes back if you want them.

You may want to choose to see it not as abandoning your common sense, which is kind of confronting, but rather, as just trying on some new thinking temporarily, see if there's any value there. You can always go back.

I think many of the most successful people in history got that way because they were flexible enough to lay aside "common sense" once in a while.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by vinylfire

See that's my sticky point. The mathematical, economic, geological observations tell me that these things are finite. Yes, people say that's buying into scarcity thinking. Why would people think material resources are scarce and have wars over them etc if they had no reason to think this? It would seem more natural to see abundance than scarcity. Why have generations of people over time and the majority of people in the world today 'misperceive' reality? Are they all negative and delusional?

[/QUOTE]

In LOA philosophy no one is delusional in the sense you mean. Negative thinking will produce a "valid" negative reality. The external world will confirm their beliefs. There is no delusion about reality, they do in fact live in an externally created negative reality.

There is not enough capital right now to make everyone rich. But resources are potentially unlimited. LOA allows individual and mass consciousness to create unlimited solutions to problems. The methodology of solving each problem does not need to be foreseen. Solutions will arise as needed.

[vinylfire]

Originally Posted by Angela

The nice thing about beliefs and attitudes is that you can try them on -- you don't have to make a commitment to them -- and see how they work in getting you the results you want. You can make adjustments, and you can have your old beliefs and attitudes back if you want them.

You may want to choose to see it not as abandoning your common sense, which is kind of confronting, but rather, as just trying on some new thinking temporarily, see if there's any value there. You can always go back.

I think many of the most successful people in history got that way because they were flexible enough to lay aside "common sense" once in a while.

Interesting approach...just might be the thing. Thanks

Originally Posted by joelr

In LOA philosophy no one is delusional in the sense you mean. Negative thinking will produce a "valid" negative reality. The external world will confirm their beliefs. There is no delusion about reality, they do in fact live in an externally created negative reality.

Well, people in mental hospitals really are Napoleon and really are Christ in their reality, but I just don't want to push my mind to that place.

Originally Posted by joelr

There is not enough capital right now to make everyone rich. But resources are potentially unlimited. LOA allows individual and mass consciousness to create unlimited solutions to problems. The methodology of solving each problem does not need to be foreseen. Solutions will arise as needed.

Yes...I can definitely see what u mean there..hadn't considered that side of it. Thanks

Hey, everybody, thanks for all your responses. You've been really helpful.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by vinylfire

Well, people in mental hospitals really are Napoleon and really are Christ in their reality, but I just don't want to push my mind to that place.

LOL. Looks like LOA ain't for you then. You have to be willing to experiment with your perception of your reality for your reality to change enough to perceive it differently.

[vinylfire]

Originally Posted by cylon

LOL. Looks like LOA ain't for you then. You have to be willing to experiment with your perception of your reality for your reality to change enough to perceive it differently.

Oh no..Universe..cylon has decided that one of your laws is not for me because I don't want to go to a mental asylum
Altering my perception, like I have just posted to Angela is an experiment that sounds like a good idea. Taking that perception to places I consider delusional (in the sense of 'worthy of institutionalization') is not where I choose to go. But feel free to create your own boundaries as you wish... unless of course you also get banned from LOA
Anyway, you guys have given me food for thought, so I'll go digest. Peace.

[cylon]

It's not for you if you equate changing your perceptions of reality into belonging in an insane asylum. The entire point is to change your perceptions.

If I'm not willing to learn to learn to play a sport do I belong on a professional sports team?

And I can't BAN you from LOA. This is your life. You're here trying to tell us that we should live a certain way, when in reality, it's your life you need to be concerned with. And in your life, I have zero authority. And vice versa.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by vinylfire

Well, people in mental hospitals really are Napoleon and really are Christ in their reality, but I just don't want to push my mind to that place.

That is an extreme example, but essentially you are right.

For example, you may truthfully consider yourself as a good son, or a mediocre employee, or a lousy Christian. All those things, however, are in your reality, and they may or may not be true in someone else's reality.

For example, your mother, your boss or Jesus may have a very different opinion about you.

Those interested in exploring this line of analysis further may be interested in reading Don Ruiz Miguel's book "The Voice of Knowledge". One thing he advises is not to take anything personally, because nobody really knows you. Everyone is just creating and acting out the story of their own lives, and you just happen to be a prop in their story.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by vinylfire

Why have generations of people over time and the majority of people in the world today 'misperceive' reality?

The answer that makes the most sense to me comes from Buddhism. It is however a complex, profound answer and I can only lay out the bare bones here.

The answer is represented by the pig in the centre of the Buddhist painting below. (This painting is highly symbolic and every single little detail in it stands for a specific point in Buddhist teachings).




Anyway, the pig stands for ignorance.

Ignorance of what?

Of the true nature of reality.

And what is the consequence of this ignorance?

People tend to falsely see things (including themselves) as having an inherent existence and furthermore possessing a kind of permanence.

For example, the person falsely sees himself as a limited, distinct self, separate from the rest of reality. This leads to other negative emotions such as:

-- fear and hate of, & anger against, perceived external threats

-- selfishness and greed (because the person believes that there is a need to grab and possess things, in order to safeguard his limited, vulnerable self).

-- loss and grief (because the person attaches to things or circumstances, not understanding that they are "unreal" and "impermanent", and thereby suffers loss and grief, when these things and circumstances eventually fall away).

------------------------------

Anyway, the upshot of it is that all these things:

fear, hate, anger, selfishness, greed, loss, grief

all stem from the same simgle root cause. Ignorance of the true nature of reality.

And what is the true nature of reality? Well ..... the answer has got to do with the usual theme in this forum. How reality is something created by the mind etc etc.


Note: before enlightenment is achieved, the person will always be "misperceiving" reality, to a greater or lesser extent.

[cylon]

Do you think that people deny that they are responsible for bad things is because of their compassion for others, or their fear of taking control of so much that previously they blamed on other people?

Someone hammering me over the head demanding that I feel compassion, is that from their feeling of love for another or just their fear that their reality is about to fall apart?

Is it both--fear and compassion? Or are fear and compassion the same thing?

Aren't both emotions an indicator that you are feeling separate from the rest of life?
Isn't compassion to see someone else as powerless?

Not sure if I'm making sense here, something's going on in my brain.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by vinylfire

Well, people in mental hospitals really are Napoleon and really are Christ in their reality, but I just don't want to push my mind to that place.

I know, like ALG says that is a good point.

The only thing I can point out is that the LOA path does veer away from that type of delusional thinking. It involves accepting what is currently real and taking steps to bring about a desired reality.

With LOA if one wants to be Napolean it probably won't happen, by accepting you are not Napolean you can then move on to create a life that may be similar to Napolen. You may not be French and short but one could become a great military leader by using LOA. By not accepting what is real in the present I think the whole process is derailed.
The Universe must figure out the details.

Maybe using Jesus would be a better example......


That Buddhist drawing is really cool.

[cylon]

I don't think a conscious person would deliberately lead themselves into a case where they forget who they are and what their life's history is.

If you start up intelligent and considerate, you'll probably end up intelligent and considerate. You just may have a different opinion and experience on how life works as the difference.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

I don't think a conscious person would deliberately lead themselves into a case where they forget who they are and what their life's history is.

If you start up intelligent and considerate, you'll probably end up intelligent and considerate. You just may have a different opinion and experience on how life works as the difference.

Unless someone's old habitual negative thought pattern gets reactivated (a button gets pushed)! That happens sometimes in the most intelligent and considerate conversations.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by cylon

I don't think a conscious person would deliberately lead themselves into a case where they forget who they are and what their life's history is.

If you start up intelligent and considerate, you'll probably end up intelligent and considerate. You just may have a different opinion and experience on how life works as the difference.

But could a conscious person become mentally ill?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by joelr

But could a conscious person become mentally ill?

I think you could adopt beliefs that are harmful to you, and become sort of this negative void...where you believe painful, negative things that aren't a help to you or anyone else, but do you think that if you continue to study LOA that you will start forgetting all your memories and forget that when you look in a mirror you are "joelr"? I doubt it.

Sometimes the argument is made "well if IM/SR is real, let's all jump off a building and see if we can fly!" Do you really think you would do that--- even if you have doubts about the consistency of what we consider "laws"? I highly, highly doubt it. We still have a survival instinct.

Vinyl's concern seems to be the longer you study something like this, the more likely you are to reach the point of no return and you won't be able to tell up from down, and possibly will lose your ability to interact with the world in a productive way. My personal opinion is that we are much more intelligent and capable of change, of adapting to new beliefs, than we give ourselves credit for. We can handle it.

The more I learn about this, and the more willing I am to question what I always believed was true, the easier it gets for me, and I don't feel this instability as much. Just because things may work differently than I thought, doesn't automatically mean that the consequences of accepting that are going to harmful or disastrous.

I think it's just fear of the unknown. That's normal, and much more widespread than just investigating LOA. But most of us learn that many of our fears, aren't really based in reality to begin with.

Now, maybe a button could be pushed to set someone off into dementia, or skitzo-ville... but I wonder if that was always there just under the surface. If it WAS, I would imagine anything could set it off. Not just the choice to question the basis of reality.

[joelr]

Right I see. The concern for LOA induced dementia is unwarranted.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by joelr

Right I see. The concern for LOA induced dementia is unwarranted.

I hope so. Otherwise you may see me typing like thvis an not mackingg mush centss..

I don't know... if you WANTED to become crazy, and that was your intention? I never thought about it that way.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by cylon

Vinyl's concern seems to be the longer you study something like this, the more likely you are to reach the point of no return and you won't be able to tell up from down, and possibly will lose your ability to interact with the world in a productive way.

I can't honestly say that I've never had that kind of concern. I guess perhaps some sort of precaution could be taken.

Eg draw up a sanity checklist while you're still sure you're sane, and go through it every six months to make sure you still meet most or all of the criteria.

Mine might look something like this:

(a) Still employed and doing well in a senior professional job at a global financial institution [YES]/[NO]

(b) Still able to travel independently from home to work and back again [YES]/[NO]

(c) Still composing long forum posts with a high degree of grammatical precision [YES]/[NO]

(d) Still able to solve most Sudoku puzzles under 3 minutes [YES]/[NO]

(e) Still have friends with physical bodies [YES]/[NO]

[Wax Frog]

(f) Still haven't seen "I Not Stupid" *

*I seemingly manifested this last night, and viewed some of it; I'd never seen a Singaporean movie before, or any other program that I can recall...

[cylon]

Those multiple choice ones always confuse me.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

(f) Still haven't seen "I Not Stupid" *

*I seemingly manifested this last night, and viewed some of it; I'd never seen a Singaporean movie before, or any other program that I can recall...

Oh it's very good, but you're probably not going to "get" a lot of it. Because it has a lot of distinctive local flavour.

I bet you can't tell, for instance, that it is partially a satire of the relationship between the ruling political party here, and the voting population.

[vinylfire]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

The answer that makes the most sense to me comes from Buddhism. It is however a complex, profound answer and I can only lay out the bare bones here.

The answer is represented by the pig in the centre of the Buddhist painting below. (This painting is highly symbolic and every single little detail in it stands for a specific point in Buddhist teachings).

Anyway, the pig stands for ignorance.

Ignorance of what?

Of the true nature of reality.

Note: before enlightenment is achieved, the person will always be "misperceiving" reality, to a greater or lesser extent.

Oooh, thanks for the link. Have always wanted a poster of the Wheel of Life. So, with deliberate creation/IM..we are learning to foster delusions that are pleasing to us..that make us suffer less? Or are we getting out of delusion and seeing Reality which is All Good, Lovely etc? In your opinion, does this path lead to enlightenment or to the god realm? (According to a buddhist context) Hey, u know there is this plane of existence described by the buddha where the inhabitants are gods and create wonderful realities and worlds..I think it's the 10th or 11th deva realm..not sure. Is that kind of where IM is headed or does it get you to accept the Now, be joyous in the Now and that way lead you to Reality (Nirvana)?
I always go from thinking Buddhist philosophy is in contradiction with IM to thinking that IM is a sneaky way of getting you to the same place - by accepting your desire and ego instead of battling with them, you may be able to transmute them faster.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by vinylfire

Oooh, thanks for the link. Have always wanted a poster of the Wheel of Life. So, with deliberate creation/IM..we are learning to foster delusions that are pleasing to us..that make us suffer less? Or are we getting out of delusion and seeing Reality which is All Good, Lovely etc? In your opinion, does this path lead to enlightenment or to the god realm? (According to a buddhist context)

I would think both apply. LOA is a law of physics (will be) not a philosophy of living like Buddhism. Some who are good at manifesting specific things like money-wealth spend their whole existence satisfying ego desires. Others work on spiritual development and use the knowledge in a more selfless way.

LOA is found in Buddhist philosophy and LOA itself is often taught with Buddhist-like spirituality (more Hindu-y really) attached to it.

By itself LOA is neutral.
Although once one realizes they can create their own reality in full I would imagine it would lead to a much higher vibration/spiritual existence?

I don't know, ALG will explain better.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by joelr

Some who are good at manifesting specific things like money-wealth spend their whole existence satisfying ego desires. Others work on spiritual development and use the knowledge in a more selfless way.

I think you can do both.

Originally Posted by joelr

Although once one realizes they can create their own reality in full I would imagine it would lead to a much higher vibration/spiritual existence?

...and that's why.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by cylon

I think you can do both.

Sure. Even better. My goal is to help others in a selfless way AND have the love life of James Bond.

[cylon]

Indeed. One should never settle for less. To do so, would be uncivilized.

Good day, 007.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by cylon

indeed. One should never settle for less. To do so, would be uncivilized.

Good day, 007.

lol!

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by vinylfire

So, with deliberate creation/IM..we are learning to foster delusions that are pleasing to us..that make us suffer less? Or are we getting out of delusion and seeing Reality which is All Good, Lovely etc? In your opinion, does this path lead to enlightenment or to the god realm? (According to a buddhist context) Hey, u know there is this plane of existence described by the buddha where the inhabitants are gods and create wonderful realities and worlds..I think it's the 10th or 11th deva realm..not sure. Is that kind of where IM is headed or does it get you to accept the Now, be joyous in the Now and that way lead you to Reality (Nirvana)?
I always go from thinking Buddhist philosophy is in contradiction with IM to thinking that IM is a sneaky way of getting you to the same place - by accepting your desire and ego instead of battling with them, you may be able to transmute them faster.

These are all very good questions. I will offer some of my own thoughts.

At the very core of their teachings, Abraham Hicks and the Buddha are .... the same. Buddhism shows the way to the end of suffering (dukkha). Abraham Hicks shows the way to joy. Well, the end of suffering IS joy.

You will see this more clearly, if you understand the meaning of the Pali word, dukkha. Commonly, the word is translated into English as "suffering". But in its original language, dukkha has a much wider meaning than what English speakers would associate with the word "suffering".

Dukkha means not just grief, deep pain etc but suffering in much milder forms. Dukkha includes anxiety, dissatisfaction, boredom, disappointment etc etc.

If you read Abraham's teachings carefully, you see that Buddha and Abraham are pretty much on the same page. Emotions (positive & negative) are central to their teachings.

It's important to understand that Abraham never tells people that they should manifest a nicer car, or a bigger house, or more money. Abraham does say that the worthiest goal, in their view, is to experience pure joy. And throughout their teachings, they continually emphasise towards more-positive emotional states. Emotions are the focus, not the specific subject matter of the intention.

Surprisingly, the Buddha is the same. He does lay down a set of what we might call "moral rules". For instance, he says, don't hurt others, don't steal, don't speak angry words. etc. But if you understand his framework (Eightfold Path), you see that ALL his rules stem from the same idea of moving towards the end of suffering.

In other words, when he says "Don't steal", or "Don't speak angry words", his reason is always the same. Don't do these things, because these things will take you further away from your own joy.

[To Be Continued]

[Acting Like Godot]

And now, for the next part.

Originally Posted by vinylfire

So, with deliberate creation/IM..we are learning to foster delusions that are pleasing to us..that make us suffer less? Or are we getting out of delusion and seeing Reality which is All Good, Lovely etc?

I think it depends on the individual. To me, it is more like different stages of growth in spiritual understanding.

Some conscious experience in manipulating delusions/illusions is probably necessary for most people, before they can accept that reality (as they normally perceive it ) is indeed a delusion/illusion.

The path of enlightenment is a difficult one to walk. LOA/IM could serve as a kind of training ground.