I want to see the impossible

[ellie]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

I hesitated to bring up that child-abuse allegation, but knew of it; as the subject has been broached, I now very much want to see ALG's response as well.

I hesitated to post my question as well, which concerns me. Why would I hesitate bringing up something like this? This is very serious allegation and I would never want to be ashamed to ask such a question.

I was brought up in a religion were sexual abuse was rife and the leaders hid it under the table and allowed these things to continue. I would never want others to feel they have to hide discussing these problems in a follwing/religion what ever you want to call it.

I would hope these forums would be open and welcome such questions.

[cylon]

If this guy did abuse someone sexually (and I don't know, wasn't there, don't really care---I've seen some of his videos though in the past and they are trippy as hell)..... does it therefore mean that whatever message he is conveying, and whatever results he's claiming, are untrue?

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by ellie

This is very serious allegation and I would never want to be ashamed to ask such a question.

In my case it's that I hesitate to repeat such things when I have no clue as to the truth of the matter. *If* it's false, I dont' want to be part of spreading an ugly lie, even innocently by way of reference.

Perhaps I should have asked something like, "I've read of some ugly allegations about Sai Baba, and wonder if there's any substance to them".

Originally Posted by cylon

If this guy did abuse someone sexually [...] does it therefore mean that whatever message he is conveying, and whatever results he's claiming, are untrue?

I forgot where I read it, but I believe P. Yogananda gave a warning that even the non-enlightened can exhibit 'siddhis', so at worst this could only discredit one possible exemplar of IM in action, not the reality of the phenomenon itself.

[cylon]

Crap, this opens up the whole can of worms of being non-judgmental.

[Acting Like Godot]

I do not know whether Sai Baba has sexually abused anyone. It could be true. It could be false.

But I didn't mention Sai Baba on this forum to cite him as a model for good behaviour. If you want good-behaviour role models as absolutely pristine as possible, I would suggest Buddha. (Jesus is not ideal - he was an irresponsible political rabble-rouser who hung out at the wrong side of town, socialising with prostitutes).

I cited Sai Baba as an example of a person who is known for physical manifestation. (Remember the original post?).

The ability to perform paranormal feats should not be automatically associated with holiness or godliness. There are many examples of people - eg Matthew Manning and Nina Kulagina - who began exhibiting unusual psychic powers when they were only children, and yet were quite ordinary in other aspects of their lives (eg they never founded any spiritual organisation; they never claimed any special connection with Divinity; they never had "teachings" and they never had "followers" - maybe fans).

I also did mention in my first post about Sai Baba that he has his critics and skeptics (people who say that his "miracles" are just clever tricks).

Sai Baba is controversial, yes. He is 80+ years old now and has been regularly controversial since he was a little boy.

I personally do believe that Sai Baba, at least some of the time, produces genuine paranormal feats. Among other reasons, because of the recovery he produced in my once-schizophrenic uncle. Also because of accounts given by Uplift, the Australian guy who used to be post regularly in these forums.

I'm aware (and I have often pointed this out myself) that the nature of reality is such that there is always room to doubt any reported miracles. That is why I urged Intj123 very early on in this thread, to perform his own miracles for himself.

Even if Jesus suddenly appeared in Intj123's home and did a couple of tricks, there would still be room for doubt. Eg any one of the following should suffice:

"I'm on Candid Camera, or some new reality TV show."
"It must be the stuff that I was smoking."
"That's a nice special effect, same thing as they did in the latest Harry Potter movie."
"I am insane. I really need to go see a doctor."

[cylon]

This might be a western thing, but I wonder if it has to do with being raised in a Christian-influenced culture.

Many people actually DO believe these things are possible, and that 'miracles' do happen.... but they happened with one man, Jesus, and that when he was dead, that stuff stopped happening in the world.

So people believe that Jesus walked on water, but that the idea that it could ever happen again with someone else, is ridiculous to them.

And even people who don't believe that Jesus even lived in the first place, and that this is garbage, all of it, have still been raised in the same culture where they are aware that people SAY there was someone who performed miracles, and that he was the only one who could do it, so that would influence their opinion of these things anyway.

(And I know that Jesus said every one could perform 'miracles' too if they believed, but not many people bother with trying it out for themselves or actually believe what he said was true).

Add to that, our culture through history has believed that anyone else professing that they can perform 'miracles' is a fraud, a charlatan, or maybe even the devil himself in human form, leading us away from Christ.

So thus, the knee-jerk, negative reaction to anyone claiming anything, ever. That's usually my reaction too. And maybe according to LOA, we are manifesting our inability to manifest one ton balls of gold.

Whereas in a culture that believed these things were more common and possible, may actually be open to trying it themselves, and according to LOA, would actually have real people experiencing these things in their own lives.

[ellie]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I personally do believe that Sai Baba, at least some of the time, produces genuine paranormal feats. Among other reasons, because of the recovery he produced in my once-schizophrenic uncle. Also because of accounts given by Uplift, the Australian guy who used to be post regularly in these forums.

Have you ever watched "True Blood"? Because I watch quality tv to help me grow as a person However, they had an interesting episode where one of the characters mother was a raging alcoholic, she then bumped into a witch doctor who explained that there were demons inside her and that that demons were taking over her body and causing her to drink.

Consequently she wanted to get those demons out, she believed whole heartedly that she had demons in her. So she went to the witch doctor and she preformed her ritual to remove the demon. After that the mother was cured and never touched a drink after that.

Later the daughter found out the the witch doctor was a fraud. However, the moral of the story is that the power of the mind in believing something can make you overcome some pretty amazing things.

Of course this is just a tv show, so my story is probably not going to pull much weight around here, but I do believe the power in positive thoughts to overcome some pretty amazing things.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by cylon

This might be a western thing, but I wonder if it has to do with being raised in a Christian-influenced culture.

Many people actually DO believe these things are possible, and that 'miracles' do happen.... but they happened with one man, Jesus, and that when he was dead, that stuff stopped happening in the world.

So people believe that Jesus walked on water, but that the idea that it could ever happen again with someone else, is ridiculous to them.

Yeah .... It's very peculiar to me.

I often sense that there is this perception among Christians that the story of God pretty much ends where the Bible ends, and thereafter there will be no more prophets, angels, miracles etc.

I don't think so. Where the Bible ends was pretty much an arbitrary canonisation decision by the Church. It could jolly well have ended 10 years later; or 300 years later, or it could have just gone on and on.

For instance, in the Bible, God regularly dropped in to talk directly to many different guys, like Moses, Abraham, Saul, Daniel etc. Why should this process have stopped?

Well, I don't think it has stopped. It probably just goes on and on. What might a modern-day person having regular conversations with God do about it? Well, I imagine he might have a website, write some books, hold workshops, to tell people about it.

You know, like Neale Donald Walsch.

[cylon]

I hear you. Those types of beliefs are ingrained into my head from my own family....and interestingly it was my determination to get them out of my system that led me to LOA through a couple detours through atheism, then militant atheism, to being in awe of how amazingly complex the universe is, to agnositicism, then to LOA.

So I can now say goodbye to MY cultural baggage.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by ellie

Have you ever watched "True Blood"? Because I watch quality tv to help me grow as a person However, they had an interesting episode where one of the characters mother was a raging alcoholic, she then bumped into a witch doctor who explained that there were demons inside her and that that demons were taking over her body and causing her to drink.

Consequently she wanted to get those demons out, she believed whole heartedly that she had demons in her. So she went to the witch doctor and she preformed her ritual to remove the demon. After that the mother was cured and never touched a drink after that.

Later the daughter found out the the witch doctor was a fraud. However, the moral of the story is that the power of the mind in believing something can make you overcome some pretty amazing things.

Of course this is just a tv show, so my story is probably not going to pull much weight around here, but I do believe the power in positive thoughts to overcome some pretty amazing things.

I do understand your point. In fact, not too long ago, I posted a link in these forums to an article in a scientific journal. The article was entitled "The Science of Voodoo" and opens with an account of a man who was rapidly and literally dying, after a witch doctor cursed him with a "death curse".

The doctors at the hospital could not save him, until they devised a cheap theatrical trick (involving a big dead lizard or frog in a bucket) whereby they convinced the man that they had found a way to break the curse. Within a few hours the man recovered.

These accounts however are similar to many miracles of Jesus (especially the healing ones). In the Bible, Jesus tells the blind guys / the lepers / the lame that they have to have faith, and then they will be instantly cured. Well, what's faith? It's the belief stuff again.

So Sai Baba's healing miracles, like Jesus's healing miracles, may be nothing more than the placebo effect. But this can lead us two ways. Either we scoff at these holy men's miracles, or we grow awed by the power of the placebo effect. Which is, after all, one way that the LOA operates.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Well, I don't think it has stopped. It probably just goes on and on. What might a modern-day person having regular conversations with God do about it? Well, I imagine he might have a website, write some books, hold workshops, to tell people about it.

You know, like Neale Donald Walsch.

But this is interfering with my "false prophet" program that tells me all wise godly prophets have to have lived in "ancient times".

Must reboot program.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

So Sai Baba's healing miracles, like Jesus's healing miracles, may be nothing more than the placebo effect. But this can lead us two ways. Either we scoff at these holy men's miracles, or we grow awed by the power of the placebo effect. Which is, after all, one way that the LOA operates.

You know, I don't think I ever thought about Jesus' miracles in that way. It was always that disbelief that one man could heal others. Never thought of it in the way of him tricking them into using their own power.

But isn't that what Jesus really said? You can do all these things I do and more?

[intj123]

Originally Posted by cylon

You know, I don't think I ever thought about Jesus' miracles in that way. It was always that disbelief that one man could heal others. Never thought of it in the way of him tricking them into using their own power.

But isn't that what Jesus really said? You can do all these things I do and more?

Quantum Touch anyone?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by intj123

Quantum Touch anyone?

I was actually thinking about taking that course. There is a place to learn it, in my city - in fact, the same place where I took the Silva Method course.

[moonrambler]

@intj123 - The thing with all this is that it seems like using the LoA effectively and IM'ing tends to be a continuum of things getting better and better, and more in line with what people want to attract as they learn how to consciously utilize the LoA. And yes, there are blips of cool weirdness along the way. Some of the manifestations feel very significant and extraordinary to the people they happen to, but it seems like there is always, or nearly always, a way to somehow explain it away as either a natural progression or coincidence.

This leads skeptics to ask for a 1-ton ball of gold as proof, because they want something that can't be seen as a natural progression or coincidence. However, as others have mentioned, it's not so likely for somebody to manifest that 1-ton ball of gold. They may not have the capability, and they may not want to deal with it. Also, intj123, I don't know if you've really thought about the implications of someone here *poof* manifesting a 1-ton ball of gold. Doing something which abruptly changes a person's fundamental basis of reality . . . can be very, very scary, especially if they have very little experience with such manifestations.

[Manomanman]

The 730-Ton Ball That Keeps The Taipei 101 Earthquake Tolerant Is Pretty Big, Heavy - Geekologie

Intention manifested (it's not quite 1 ton, but I think it's close enough).

[moonrambler]

This might count as a 1-ton ball of gold

Pure Gold Volkswagen Beetle Luxury Car

[cylon]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

Doing something which abruptly changes a person's fundamental basis of reality . . . can be very, very scary

I had enough trouble cutting back on coffee.

[Liara Covert]

Another perspective is that as you reach a place of inner knowing, you no longer feel compelled to doubt or question. You accept what feels real. What other people think, believe, say or not, no longer matters. Self accepts what is and learns what it means to be serene.

[intj123]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

The 730-Ton Ball That Keeps The Taipei 101 Earthquake Tolerant Is Pretty Big, Heavy - Geekologie

Intention manifested (it's not quite 1 ton, but I think it's close enough).

Originally Posted by moonrambler

This might count as a 1-ton ball of gold

Pure Gold Volkswagen Beetle Luxury Car

Wow I'm totally convinced now, LOA must be true! SARCASM!

First one is not even made of gold, second one is not even a ball.

[Angela]

intj, you do realize that what you are getting is perfectly aligned with your vibrational pull, right? You're kind of a poster boy (girl) for the law of attraction.

[ellie]

Originally Posted by intj123

Wow I'm totally convinced now, LOA must be true! SARCASM!

First one is not even made of gold, second one is not even a ball.

At the end of the day it doesn't bother me if it's true or not, all I know is ever I got into PD and LOA my life has been so much better. Call it positive thinking, LOA, manifesting...whatever it working better than a whole lot of other things.

If it's all a bunch of fluff, then so be it. Still doesn't take away from the fact that I'm much happier

[intj123]

Originally Posted by Angela

intj, you do realize that what you are getting is perfectly aligned with your vibrational pull, right? You're kind of a poster boy (girl) for the law of attraction.

that's only under the assumption that LOA is already working.

[intj123]

Originally Posted by ellie

At the end of the day it doesn't bother me if it's true or not, all I know is ever I got into PD and LOA my life has been so much better. Call it positive thinking, LOA, manifesting...whatever it working better than a whole lot of other things.

If it's all a bunch of fluff, then so be it. Still doesn't take away from the fact that I'm much happier

Well that's really good for you, really. I'm not here to argue whether believing in LOA makes you happier, I'm wondering if you actually get the things you ask for, which doesn't seem to be the case.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

Some of the manifestations feel very significant and extraordinary to the people they happen to, but it seems like there is always, or nearly always, a way to somehow explain it away as either a natural progression or coincidence.

There will always be a way to somehow explain it away as either a natural progression or coincidence. Why? Here's the explanation:

1. You currently have a certain reality (let's call it Reality X). In this reality, you have your family; your health; your career; your home; your lifestyle; your community etc, all existing in a certain way.

2. Reality X was created by the sum total of your thoughts, up to this point in time.

3. To manifest a new intention, you have to effect a change in some part of your thinking. A change then occurs in your reality.

4. But the change still has to occur out of Reality X. In other words, the change has to arise out of Reality X.

In other words, you don't get to wipe away the whole of Reality X, and start with a completely blank slate, whereby you can create new rules like: "Okay, gold is the 5th most common element in the universe. Everyone like balls and they love making balls. I own a ball factory and my employees make large balls everyday, in innovative ways."

No! Your thoughts are powerful. They have already created Reality X and you can't undo everything you've created just like that.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by intj123

I'm wondering if you actually get the things you ask for, which doesn't seem to be the case.

That's only under the assumption that the LoA isn't already working.

[Acting Like Godot]

There are very real limits to what you can achieve with the LOA. Those limits change over time, with practice. Nonetheless they exist. The limits are defined, quite simply, by the extent to which you understand your own mind and are able to control and direct your thinking.

Never mind 1-ton balls of gold.

Some people can't stop themselves from lighting up a cigarette, even if they really want to. Some people can't stop worrying about things even though they know that their worrying won't help in any way. Some people can't sit down for one hour and fully concentrate on their homework, even if that is what they really want to do. Some people keep losing their temper, even though they've resolved many times not to do that.

All of the above demonstrate the limits of people's control over their own minds.

If you can't master your mind in little ways, then it is unlikely that you could master your mind in big ways. (Whatever "big" and "little" may mean to you).

[intj123]

Originally Posted by Angela

That's only under the assumption that the LoA isn't already working.

Not really, I wasn't definitive about my own views, to me it's still possible that either could be true. But yea now I'm leaning towards it not working, after finding out nobody here can manifest anything that I can get not using LOA.

You however were stating that I am using LOA to get these responses. So you were already definitive about your own views.

[intj123]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

There will always be a way to somehow explain it away as either a natural progression or coincidence. Why? Here's the explanation:

1. You currently have a certain reality (let's call it Reality X). In this reality, you have your family; your health; your career; your home; your lifestyle; your community etc, all existing in a certain way.

2. Reality X was created by the sum total of your thoughts, up to this point in time.

3. To manifest a new intention, you have to effect a change in some part of your thinking. A change then occurs in your reality.

4. But the change still has to occur out of Reality X. In other words, the change has to arise out of Reality X.

In other words, you don't get to wipe away the whole of Reality X, and start with a completely blank slate, whereby you can create new rules like: "Okay, gold is the 5th most common element in the universe. Everyone like balls and they love making balls. I own a ball factory and my employees make large balls everyday, in innovative ways."

No! Your thoughts are powerful. They have already created Reality X and you can't undo everything you've created just like that.

"you don't get to wipe away the whole of Reality X"
blah blah blah, adding a big gold ball to reality X doesn't destroy reality X.

[st33med]

Well, make an Infinite Improbability machine.