Into the Lions den

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Tim Brownson

ALG - I have a friend who is a well respected Buddhist teacher (Bodhipaksa). I interviewed him a few months ago and we're gonna do a follow up soon. I'm gonna get his take on the LoA and Buddhism. I'll get back to you on that one, because I have no idea.

Excellent.

Now, I will give you a few ideas on how to have a more interesting interview. These are the things you can do beforehand, to prepare for a more interesting session.

(1) First, ask yourself - if it were your intention to manifest a gentler, more loving, happier world, how would you do this, according to LOA principles. Write down your own answer.

Next, when interviewing your friend, ask him about something in Buddhism called "loving-kindness meditation". Ask him how it is done, and what is its purpose. See how closely it matches with your own answer.

(2) Think of something that you are scared of. Think of something you hate. Think of something you are greedy for. (If you can't, then just make a list of situations or things which you think an average person might fear, hate or be greedy for).

When you meet your friend, ask him this question - "What is the Buddhist explanation for fear, hate and greed? How do they arise?".

(3) Ask your friend what is karma and what causes it. Ask him if thought alone can cause karma to arise (for example, a very evil thought, or a very loving thought). That is, ask him if thought alone will attract actual consequences into your life.

Those are for starters .... I could go on, but where would I stop?

[Angela]

uhhhhhhhh..... what a nice diet aid.... somehow it was less gruesome in my imagination!

[Steve Pavlina]

You guys are very skilled at manifesting debate.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Tim Brownson

And finally, I have done a lot of research into meditation in sport for a book I am co-authoring and the LoA never ever came up. Have you ever read any Dr Nick Hall, he talks a lot about visualization.

I'm also a qualified hypnotherapist and one of my best friends is one of the best hypno guys in the US. The LoA comes up in conversation from time to time, but never heard anybody suggest there was a link between the two.

Well, as I said, it is merely a term. It is like this. Muslims speak of Allah, and Hindus speak of Brahman, and Christians speak of God. Their terminology is different, and many of them might scoff at the others' beliefs, never suspecting that God, Brahman and Allah might all be the same thing.

Hypnosis is clearly one form in which the LOA is practised. Inducing a trance state is the starting point of many LOA schools (eg magick, creative visualisation, Silva Method) and the trance state is, of course, central to hypnotic methods.

Here is the difference between conventional hypnotherapy and, let's say, magick (at least, certain types of magick).

The goals of conventional hypnotheraphy are generally limited to the patient's own thoughts, words and behaviour. For example, I may use hypnosis to help myself get rid of an addiction or phobia. Or I may use it to motivate myself to exercise regularly, or whatever. This is done by inducing a trance, and then giving the relevant suggestions to the deeper levels of my mind, eg "Exercising is really fun ... I love exercising ..." etc

Many magickal methods are exactly the same, except that the goals aren't limited to the person's own thoughts, words and behaviour. Instead the goals can extend to "external" reality. For example, the person goes to trance, and then gives himself relevant suggestions that "A lot of money is coming to me rapidly, from an unexpected source". Thereafter - if it works - money rapidly arrives from an unexpected source.

Here is an LOA book which places hypnotic methods squarely in the overall framework of manifesting.

Mind Magic: Techniques for Transforming Your Life: Amazon.co.uk: Marta Hiatt: Books

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

You guys are very skilled at manifesting debate.

Oh look, here's Steve.

Now Tim, since you are a hypnotherapist, you must know about how to use progressive muscular relaxation to induce a trance.

Next, look up Steve's blog archives and see if you can find the post where Steve describes, step by step, how he actually uses the LOA to manifest his intentions.

You will see that his first step is actually progressive muscular relaxation.

Go think about that. As you explore, you will see how all these matters - hypnosis, IM, meditation, prayer, visualisation - are all intertwined.

[Tim Brownson]

Ooops, I haven't done ANY research on meditation in sport, I meant to say visualization, sorry!

Sure I know about the Jacobsen technique which I think is what you are referring to, I also read Steve's stuff on manifesting.

In regard to the Metta Bhavana or loving kindness I do know a bit about that and do it 3 or 4 times per week myself. I actually believe in putting love 'out there' and I just don't believe it has any effect other than to make the giver feel good.

ALG, you're an interesting an intelligent gut but you do sound a tad patronizing when you say things like "Now, I will give you a few ideas on how to have a more interesting interview" LOL well thanks on that one, but I have an idea or two of my own and it is subjective anyway.

All this kind of supports what I said in the post. That the goal posts are on the move. In the stuff i read from a few years ago, none of this came up. Now it's like "Yeh but we really meant EVERYTHING is the LoA"

It's difficult to debate something like that and not get frazzled.

As for the meditation exercise, again you sound incredibly patronizing. I did do my research, I did read from multiple sources because I didn't believe it was BS, I wanted to think it was true. I actually doubted the rather right-leaning authors of the book. It was the research that led to the post and not vice versa.

The stats were based around violent crime and more specifically homicide and apparently theere were over 50 scientists helping to conduct the experiment and keep it as valid as possible.

So maybe rather than presume I'm a 5 year old you that needs constant guiding from his dad, you could have had a quick look yourself

We all suffer from conformation bias you know, even you and me.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Tim Brownson

In regard to the Metta Bhavana or loving kindness I do know a bit about that and do it 3 or 4 times per week myself. I actually believe in putting love 'out there' and I just don't believe it has any effect other than to make the giver feel good.

Ah. I thought your point was whether there is any connection between "Buddhism" and the "LOA".

If you look at LOA techniques, and then you look at the loving-kindness meditation methods in Buddhism, then you see quite clearly that the loving-kindness meditations in Buddhism are pretty much how you would use the LOA to manifest a happier, more loving world.

So that is one example that I would cite to you, to illustrate the connecton between Buddhism and the LOA.

Whether you believe that those Buddhist meditations work is of course a different sort of question (just as whether you believe that the LOA exists is another question).

All this kind of supports what I said in the post. That the goal posts are on the move. In the stuff i read from a few years ago, none of this came up. Now it's like "Yeh but we really meant EVERYTHING is the LoA"

What you really mean to say is:

(a) you perceived that there were goal posts
(b) you perceived that someone or some people put them there a few years ago (who are these people? I dunno)
(c) you perceived that the goal posts are being moved now by some people (again, who are they? I dunno, except that from your latest post, I'm supposed to be one of them).

Sounds like plenty of reality-creation you're doing there, with your mind.

Your comment about "a few years ago" is also somewhat baffling to me, because I really don't know what you were reading "a few years ago". Many of my favourite books about the LOA are much older than a "few years ago" eg:

-- The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success, by Deepak Chopra (first published in 1996)

-- Personal Power Through Awareness, by Sanayan Roman (first published in 1986)

-- Creative Visualisation, by Shakti Gawain (first published in 1978)

-- The Nature of Personal Reality, by Jane Roberts (first published in 1974)

-- The Master Key System, by Charles Haanel (first published in 1917)

.... and I'm aware that the phrase "Law of Attraction" was already being used more than 100 years ago (eg William Walker Atkinson published a book entitled "Thought Vibration or the Law of Attraction in the Thought World" in 1906).

So .... whose goal posts are you referring to?

As for the meditation exercise, again you sound incredibly patronizing. I did do my research, I did read from multiple sources because I didn't believe it was BS, I wanted to think it was true. I actually doubted the rather right-leaning authors of the book. It was the research that led to the post and not vice versa.

The stats were based around violent crime and more specifically homicide and apparently theere were over 50 scientists helping to conduct the experiment and keep it as valid as possible.

The number of scientists does not seem terribly relevant to me. There are definitely still more than 50 scientists in the world disagreeing and debating about the effects of Vitamin C.

I hope you also do not misunderstand my post about that meditation exercise. I do not know whether it was BS or not BS; I do not particularly believe or disbelieve it. From what I know of it, however, I am quite firmly of the view that it was a badly-designed experiment. Therefore from a scientific view, WHATEVER the outcome might have been, it would not have reliable in a scientific sense.

You might not see this yet. What I invite you to do is compare this experiment with, say, William Tiller's double-blind experiment about the effects of meditating on fruit fly larvae (an account of this may be found in Lynne MacTaggart's book "The Intention Experiment").

Once you compare the two experiments, you will understand why I say that the TM anti-crime meditation must have very, very poor experimental controls (in comparison with Tiller's experiment, where every variable can be controlled and the exact outcomes can be measured and observed under laboratory conditions).

Brief summary of Tiller's experiment:

- One batch of fruit fly eggs is divided into 2 samples

- 4 highly experienced meditators meditate on 1 sample of eggs, sending "positive" energy to improve the health of the eggs in this sample

- Both samples are hatched under identical lab conditions

- Fruit flies are reared under identical lab conditions

- Average hatching time; average lifespan; average mortality rate of fruit flies from both samples are compared.

See how tightly this experiment is controlled? Whatever the outcome, you can have a much higher degree of scientific certainty that a correct conclusion can be drawn.

We all suffer from conformation bias you know, even you and me.

Of course. Confirmation bias is one way that the LOA works.

Really.

[Tim Brownson]

I wasn't ignoring or bailing on you ALG, I was coming under attack on my own site and have a book to finish that insists on not writing itself.

Maybe when the dust has settled I should ask you to write a counterpoint on my blog!

I finally realize why SP doesn't accept comments. Jeez they can suck up your time.

The goal posts are owned by the highly visible people such as Vitale, Canfield, Hicks, Dyer, Dooley et al.

[Angela]

Tim, ALG would be the PERFECT person to write a counterpoint guest post on your blog.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Tim Brownson

The goal posts are owned by the highly visible people such as Vitale, Canfield, Hicks, Dyer, Dooley et al.

Well I can't really comment on that.

Well, if I see a LOA book or DVD that looks interesting to me, I'll buy it or borrow it and I'll read it for what it's worth and then I'll put it aside and go try whatever I read from the book that strikes me as feasible to try.

That's pretty much it. I don't make any effort to track individuals and see whether what they said in 2006 or 2007 is the same as what they say in 2009.

If any of those people have had "goal posts" and those goal posts have moved, well, I wouldn't really know.

------------------

Side note on Vitale. I did read his book "Zero Limits". In the last chapter, he muses on the things that he had learned from a chap named Dr Hew Len .... and then Vitale talks a little regretfully about his earlier book "The Attractor Factor".

Vitale says that if he had known then what he knows now, he would have written "The Attractor Factor" differently.

Dr Hew Len is a powerful teacher. Vitale learned some deeper dimensions of the LOA from Dr Hew Len.

Well, we're all learning. I also would say some things about the LOA now that I wouldn't have said a few years before, because I didn't know those things then.

Is that what you mean by goal posts that move?

[Tim Brownson]

Yeh pretty much that's it.

The offer to guest is definitely there if you want it.

If you do, drop me an e-mail to tim at a daring adventure dot com.

[Angela]

ALG, personally, I would love to see you write something over there. You would probably get some very resistant comments, but Tim is a gracious host, and I think what you say and how you say it could make a difference for people -- even if that's just opening a new perspective for them.

Some of what the resisters have had to resist over there has been what I'd call the "batshit" arguments -- incoherent ramblings, reactive negative energy, gunk like that. It would be fun and helpful, I think, to give them the kind of reasoned, calm, committed-to-helping things that you have to say.