Manifestation Experiment - Easy Way to Learn About LOA

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

I doubt you mean this in any literal sense.

Yes, I understand that you doubt that.

And I mean literally, really, and actually: when I change my beliefs, reality changes.

It shows up almost every day in non-physical ways, but I also had a fun physical manifestation of that the other day, when Danger Man flew me to Seattle to see the Goran Bregovic concert that I had missed due to illness a few days before. We believed it was probably just about sold out, and got tickets way up in the nosebleed section, which was fine -- we were delighted to be anywhere in that theater.

When we arrived, I told Danger Man that I believed we could get an upgrade. He looked at me like I was crazy, but he's seen me conjure before, so off we went to the theater. I plugged in a request for "best available" and got eighth row. Danger Man said grab 'em, but I hesitated, and the eighth row tickets were gone. I tried again and up came two front row, center seats. In fact, it turned out that these were BRAND NEW seats -- I mean, they had not been in existence a few minutes before -- they were putting up and making available these two new, folding chairs right smack in the center of the front row just as I requested the best available seats. (I know because I went into the theater, met the owner, and was told what they'd done.) The fans around us had stood in line for hours months ago to get their tickets which weren't quite as good as our two, perfect, magical seats.

When we went to the concert that night, people were dancing like crazy, and the bouncers kept ONLY the area directly between our seats and the stage completely clear -- if someone danced in front of me, the bouncers shooed them away. This was the only area of the theater that was kept clear: the area of view directly between us and the artists. We had our own private dance floor. It was like having them play just for us.

This sort of thing happens "to" me a lot.

[Kanzeon]

Originally Posted by Angela

This sort of thing happens "to" me a lot.

But you haven't changed the nature of reality, or claimed to: you just think that nice things happen to you that you wished for.

Have you, for example, tried to change the color of your eyes?

I notice people posting advice on fitness. Have you, or anyone else here, tried to increase their running endurance or size of muscles without exercising? Steve says it can be done. No one seems interested.

Can I make Steve Pavlina asian? Can he?

That is what he is claiming. And that is what you are claiming when you say reality is congruent with your beliefs. At bottom it is solipsism: that the universe is at your command, and nothing else in the universe matters other than your belief or desire. You can soften it, or finesse it: but that is, in the end, the nature of the claim.

[TonyToneTone]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

But you haven't changed the nature of reality, or claimed to: you just think that nice things happen to you that you wished for.

Have you, for example, tried to change the color of your eyes?

I notice people posting advice on fitness. Have you, or anyone else here, tried to increase their running endurance or size of muscles without exercising? Steve says it can be done. No one seems interested.

Can I make Steve Pavlina asian? Can he?

That is what he is claiming. And that is what you are claiming when you say reality is congruent with your beliefs. At bottom it is solipsism: that the universe is at your command, and nothing else in the universe matters other than your belief or desire. You can soften it, or finesse it: but that is, in the end, the nature of the claim.

Actually her reality would change based on the new vibrations she is putting out. She would be attracting to her new things/people/situations/events in alignment with her new vibration.

There have been numerous reports of people changing the color of their eyes.

I've made HUGE leaps in my muscle mass through visualization to the point where people accused me of being on steriods. And the BBC recently conducted a study where they said people who visualized gained at least 10%of additional muscle mass just by visualizing.

[Kanzeon]

Originally Posted by TonyToneTone

Actually her reality would change based on the new vibrations she is putting out. She would be attracting to her new things/people/situations/events in alignment with her new vibration.

Perhaps we could try to stay on topic. The question is: is reality congruent with her beliefs because she got to go to a concert?

No, of course it isn't.

There have been numerous reports of people changing the color of their eyes.

There are always reports: are there any scientifically verifiable reports?

I've made HUGE leaps in my muscle mass through visualization to the point where people accused me of being on steriods. And the BBC recently conducted a study where they said people who visualized gained at least 10%of additional muscle mass just by visualizing.

Visualization helps in sports, and in most things. Quite naturally, one can push oneself further with a positive attitude, and that over time translates to gains.

So, if you want to do a manifestation experiment, why not just stop exercising? If you muscles grow, that would be validation of LOA.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

Dreams are generally thought to be manifestations of the subconscious.

I'm referring to conscious dreams, aka lucid dreaming. Dreams that I have control over.

He hasn't changed your reality. He communicated with you. That's all.

Communicating with me is changing my reality. If I come up to you and say "hello," I changed your reality. If I didn't do that, then your reality would have been something different.

And it's their burden to speak clearly.

Maybe they are speaking clearly. Can I yell at a rocket scientist for "not speaking clearly?" Maybe it's just me who doesn't understand. Maybe.

What are you hoping to get out of this discussion? You won't "prove" anyone wrong, just like an Atheist trying to prove a Christian wrong often ends up frustrated. A member named John Freestone (cool guy, I liked him a lot) argued endlessly with ALG and they didn't really get anywhere (in terms of convincing each other). So I hope you're at least enjoying it. It doesn't quite seem like you are.

Edit: It was almost exactly a year ago when I joined the forum and started talking/arguing about LOA with ALG too. So we have something in common! Here's the link: Garbage, all of it.

What has changed for me since then? I basically believe the same as I did back then in regards to LOA, but I do have a better understanding of what ALG and others believe and why they believe it. Just like any other belief, it all makes sense... if you think it does.

[Angela]

But you haven't changed the nature of reality

Well, I don't know if I changed the nature of reality -- I just know I changed the content of reality. That is, how the world occurs for me. ("How the world occurs" is how I would define reality.) By changing what I believe.

Did you happen to read my post a week or so ago in which I described what happened when a cup of fresh, boiling water spilled on my hand? I watched as my hand bubbled and blistered, bright red like a lobster, and thought, "I'd better figure out a way to get the emergency room, cuz this is a serious injury." And I quickly caught myself believing that, and deliberately chose a different belief: "I am fine and I will be fine." And then I watched the blisters subside before my eyes, the redness disappeared in minutes, and there was no pain at all -- except when my belief slipped! I took a bath and thought, "uh-oh, the hot water's gonna make this hurt!" and sure enough, it hurt like hell until I caught myself and laughed at how funny I was to create pain on purpose. I switched back to believing there was no pain, and there was no pain. Same thing happened again later when Danger Man took my hand; this time I was quicker on the draw.

As for changing the color of eyes -- that's easy. People have asked me what color my eyes are, and no matter what my answer -- blue, green, blue-green, hazel -- they look at my eyes and nod, "uh-huh." If you were to ask them later, they would respond with whatever color I suggested. And if you look at a photo to try and "prove" my eyes are this color or that, you might "prove" that they are red! Or whatever color is enhanced through whatever photographic process. Color is only a hypnotic suggestion and social proof -- there's nothing objectively real about it. Take a look at this video or ask Steve Pavlina about color.

Growing muscle tissue without exercising is also something I've done personally, and have known and read about others who have as well. (But I don't just exercise "in order to" grow muscle tissue -- it feels good, and I enjoy playing the "lift weights" game as well as the "body listening in on my thoughts and responding" game. )

I've got a million of 'em, but changing Steve's race to Asian isn't something I'm interested in changing my belief about. Got something more inspiring?

So, anyway, yes: reality is totally congruent with my beliefs. Changing what I believe changes what is real.

[Daffy Duck]

Steve is good at math, so he's already Asian in my eyes.

[Angela]

Tony, I'm sorry we did kind of get sucked into that old "reality" conversation, when that's not your original topic: the easy way to learn about LoA.

But it kind of is on topic, because I think it helps us to articulate easier ways to generate and communicate deliberate intention manifestation when someone comes along and tells us we're wrong. So, thank you, Kanzeon! (Thank you, ALG, for manifesting Kanzeon! )

I think you're right -- writing things down in a place, like an index card, where you can refer to it often and plug it in as a habitual belief at an unconscious level, is helpful.

I also think one thing that makes deliberate manifestation easier is to let go of what you don't need, physically, mentally, and emotionally. One thing that strikes me is something Wordkeeper mentioned in her post, about how she is building up strength for manifesting her big intention. That's a belief I would recommend letting go of, because it tells your unconscious mind that you are too weak now -- and all your unconscious mind has is now. And of course you are strong enough right now to create and accept anything you desire. The unconscious (the "universe") doesn't make distinctions between "big" and "small" desires.

But there may be things for which the gap between what you believe and what you want to believe is "big." Closing that gap doesn't require strength; actually I think just the opposite -- it requires surrender.

And of course hypnosis and NLP can help close the gap, too!

[Kanzeon]

Originally Posted by Angela

Did you happen to read my post a week or so ago in which I described what happened when a cup of fresh, boiling water spilled on my hand?

Virtually everyone has experienced the reality that the intensity of pain is dependent on focus.

(But I don't just exercise "in order to" grow muscle tissue -- it feels good, and I enjoy playing the "lift weights" game as well as the "body listening in on my thoughts and responding" game. )

How convenient. I could walk on water, but I don't really feel like it, just now.

So, anyway, yes: reality is totally congruent with my beliefs. Changing what I believe changes what is real.

Do you have any idea what words mean? Words like "totally" and "congruent?"

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Steve is good at math, so he's already Asian in my eyes.

Yeah, I don't think it would take too much to *make* Steve Asian.

Did I ever tell you about the guy who insisted to me that he is one third American Indian?

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Angela

And of course hypnosis and NLP can help close the gap, too!

*nudge*nudge*,*wink*wink*

[Kanzeon]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

So I hope you're at least enjoying it. It doesn't quite seem like you are.

At this point, I'm finding the pathology fascinating.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

Virtually everyone has experienced the reality that the intensity of pain is dependent on focus.

I don't know about "virtually everyone." I suspect that actually a pretty good majority of people, after having a cup of boiling water spilled on their hand, would believe themselves to be injured. And you yourself are concurring with what I'm talking about, and what people who have done this know: you actually change your physical reality by changing your belief ("focus").

How convenient. I could walk on water, but I don't really feel like it, just now.

Yeah, someone once wanted me to manifest a cow to come flying through my window -- said that would be good proof -- and I declined on that one, too. It doesn't make sense to me to manifest other aspect's desires -- only my own.

Like I said, got anything more inspiring?

Do you have any idea what words mean? Words like "totally" and "congruent?"

Daffy, are you catching this? You got your "S"-Ray handy?

Yes, Kanzeon. "Totally" means: entirely, completely, fully, without exception. That's what I mean. "Congruent" means: agreeing or coinciding; matching in shape or size. That's what I mean. My beliefs entirely, completely, fully and without exception agree and coincide with reality; they match in shape and size. Do you mean something else?

I would go even further: my beliefs are not just the shape and size of reality; they actually shape and size reality.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

*nudge*nudge*,*wink*wink*

I can't help myself, Waxie! They're so effective and fun, I want to share them with the world.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Angela

I can't help myself, Waxie! They're so effective and fun, I want to share them with the world.

My own desires are humble. I wish only to become fully and deliciously "pathological"

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

...is reality congruent with her beliefs because she got to go to a concert?

p.s.... just going to the concert was great, but just wanted to be clear that I was talking about tickets appearing out of thin air -- tickets for seats that had not existed a moment before, because the seats themselves had not existed a moment before -- at the very moment I asked for them.

And I don't mean "existed" like "being aware"-type of subjective existence -- I mean that these were not actual, real, solid seats in the theater.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yeah, someone once wanted me to manifest a cow to come flying through my window -- said that would be good proof -- and I declined on that one, too. It doesn't make sense to me to manifest other aspect's desires -- only my own.

What kind of jackass would ask you to have a cow come flying through your window?

Anyway, even if Angela wanted to walk on water, she'd actually need to believe she could or the LOA would make it so she couldn't. So just because someone believes in LOA doesn't mean they believe they can do ANYTHING.

[Kanzeon]

Originally Posted by Angela

I would go even further: my beliefs are not just the shape and size of reality; they actually shape and size reality.

Except you know you don't believe that. You've said nothing that remotely supports that view. You know, as well as I do, that it is as absurd as it sounds.

This is what is interesting to me: why you would persist in this recitation, despite the fact that you yourself know it isn't true.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

What kind of jackass would ask you to have a cow come flying through your window?

SHHHHH, Daff, ixnay on the ackjassay!

Anyway, even if Angela wanted to walk on water, she'd actually need to believe she could or the LOA would make it so she couldn't. So just because someone believes in LOA doesn't mean they believe they can do ANYTHING.

Well, I don't believe I can walk on water the way it's portrayed in old Jesus movies, and sure enough, when I go out into the ocean, it works out in congruence with my beliefs. (You know they used to say the first surfers in Hawaii were "walking on water" and there are also some other interpretations of what "walking on water" might entail for us or for Jesus, but I won't split hairs.)

I do believe it's possible for me to believe that I can walk on water, and if I did, I believe I could walk on water. As it is now, I don't believe I can walk on water. And like having a cow fly through my window, or some of the other things people have suggested here, I'm not terribly inspired by that suggestion. I can see how that looks like a cop-out to Kanzeon, and that's okay.

Douglass Adams got me laughing today with what I think is an apt quote:

I don't believe it. Prove it to me and I still won't believe it.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

Except you know you don't believe that. You've said nothing that remotely supports that view. You know, as well as I do, that it is as absurd as it sounds.

This is what is interesting to me: why you would persist in this recitation, despite the fact that you yourself know it isn't true.

That's quite a remarkable assertion, Kanzeon! Why do you believe that I'm saying I believe something I don't believe? Why do you believe that it's a fact that I know that what I'm saying isn't true?

(It is true that I don't believe my thoughts are The Truth (absolutely, objectively, Ultimately True for everyone), if that's what you mean. )

[Kanzeon]

Originally Posted by Angela

And I don't mean "existed" like "being aware"-type of subjective existence -- I mean that these were not actual, real, solid seats in the theater.

Are you saying that folding chairs did not exist in your reality before this concert?

We're talking the Moore Theatre here, right? Folding chairs are not much of an exception in the Moore. The folding chairs are the probably more comfortable than the ones bolted to the floor.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

Are you saying that folding chairs did not exist in your reality before this concert?

No. I'm saying that the particular seats represented by the ticket designations did not exist in reality until they did, which happened to be the exact moment I asked for them.

[Kanzeon]

Originally Posted by Angela

No. I'm saying that the particular seats represented by the ticket designations did not exist in reality until they did, which happened to be the exact moment I asked for them.

It appeared you were saying that the Moore (Fire Code? What Fire Code?) Theatre put in folding chairs to accomodate you, something that I would find surprising at almost any other venue.

[Lil Chris]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

You know, as well as I do, that it is as absurd as it sounds.

This is what is interesting to me: why you would persist in this recitation, despite the fact that you yourself know it isn't true.

You are the only one who "knows" it isn't true... Because of this, you haven't experienced it... When and if you change your mental stance you will see otherwise...

[Kanzeon]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

You are the only one who "knows" it isn't true... Because of this, you haven't experienced it... When and if you change your mental stance you will see otherwise...

Here is what I see.

Let's say that I assert that I can fly.

You are skeptical, and say "have you flown?" My answer is: everyday I jump higher, and I can pole vault higher than anyone believes possible! I know I can fly! I talked to God and he says he wants me to fly! Look at this picture on wikipedia of a flying yogi!

To which you might say, quite reasonably, that I am deluding myself, and that I probably know that I am. I have no evidence that I can fly. My belief is based on thing that really don't lead to the conclusion that I can fly.

This is the same with Angela. She is saying that she creates her reality - all of it. She is offering anecdotes of events of the sort that have happened to me, that have absolutely nothing to do with the nature of reality. Concerts and concert halls exist because people buy tickets. If everyone gave up buying concert tickets and started manifesting, there would be no concert to manifest. She thinks these two chair are miraculous, but the rest of the Moore Theatre, I can assure you, is anything but.

She may think she is affecting her luck, in some way. She may think that she is manipulating some small part of reality. But her claim is that she totally creates her reality. She knows that isn't true, as you do.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

She knows that isn't true, as you do.

oooookay..... I had thought you were interested in respectful communication, but it looks like you've got something else going on, so I'll just say happy trails!

[Lil Chris]

I see what your saying...

Here's what I see:
I see that I do create/effect parts of my reality (similar to Angela's post). With this in mind if I create or effect parts of my reality, then I could reasonably conclude I create/effect all parts (similar or closer to the respects of say Jesus, if I was at that level) even though I may be currently unaware of it at this point.

[Kanzeon]

Angela,

Let me share with you two things that happened to my girlfriend and I in the past year.

We were hiking in Glacier National Park, and, quite unexpectedly, ended in a place we hadn't anticipated - Waterton. There is an elegant hotel there that serves high tea until 3. I don't care about high tea, but my girlfriend knew about this high tea and desperately wanted in. But were were filthy, and we had no money. Well, actually, I never have no money: I have a stash of bills I carry everywhere. In fact, it was $80, just enough for high tea!

But it was past 3, nearly 3:30. We went into the elegant hotel, dirty and sweaty, and - amazing - they sat us!. Because it was after tea was over, we were sat in the best seat: right by the window, with possibly the best view I have ever seen in my life.

But, that's not all: when I asked for the bill, they said that a gentleman from another table had "taken care of it." But I recall that we were the only ones in the huge dining room - there wasn't any man at the other table. Amazing: we had high tea a half hour late in grungy clothes for free! How could such a thing have happened????

My girlfriend also wanted to see the Ring cycle this year. But, my birthday is that week, and we had planned another hiking excursion. Still, she pined after the tickets...

But what happened? I feel down the stairs and tore the ligaments in my ankle (part of the reason I'm posting on the net, actually). But it was still too late to get good seats.

But what else happened? Her good friend, who has been struggling with cancer for several years, died a week after I messed up my ankle! And the executor of her estate called and said that she had left my girlfriend her PRIME seats to the Ring!

How could such a thing come to pass?????

The fact is that this stuff happens all the time. I could easily give you six examples more of this sort of thing from my life. I don't manifest. I just don't work to persuade myself that happenstance is a result of my mental vibrations.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

The fact is that this stuff happens all the time.

Many would say you're very good at manifesting then, albeit unaware.

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

I just don't work to persuade myself that happenstance is a result of my mental vibrations.

Indeed. Instead, you work very hard to convince yourself of the opposite. Nice job!

[Acting Like Godot]

Oh, look ... Now Kanzeon has some substantive points, actually worth responding to.

My comments below are based on my understanding of the Abraham teachings.

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

Ah, but you still won't confront what LOA truly lacks.

The first is any inherent compassion.

That is your understanding of the LOA. In my understanding of the LOA, the LOA doesn't lack anything. It is everything, and therefore cannot lack anything. You, however, can lack compassion. You can lack whatever you do not put your mind to. Therefore if you do not put your mind on compassion, and instead focus, say, on hate and anger, then hate and anger is what you will find in your reality, and yes, there will be a lack of compassion.

Does any of the above contradict Buddhism? I don't think so. But feel free to share your opinion.

As you say, the universe doesn't care whether I manifest good or evil, death or world peace. And ultimately, the result is that you create your own reality, and hence you are completely responsible for your own fate, good or bad.

Correct. In LOA, there is no external other person who is your redeemer or your punisher. In other words, there is no God or other being who says: "Bad, Kanzeon, you did a bad deed, therefore I now decide to punish you" or "Good, Kanzeon, you followed my commandment in Chapter [ ] of my holy book, therefore I shall now reward you."

You create your reality with your own thoughts, and you attract all the consequences yourself. "Good" thoughts attract "good" consequences"; "negative" thoughts attract "negative" consequences etc. Does any of the above contradict Buddhism? I don't think so. But feel free to share your opinion.

The root of Buddhism is the question of suffering. In fact, there isn't anything that does not ultimately relate to that question. Christianity begins with the notion that humanity has fallen from grace, and is seeking salvation, a reunification with God.

So, a Buddhist goes about his life, buying BMWs or not, but mediates on the one question: what does this mean about suffering, mine and the world's? The Christian goes about his life, and asks "what would Jesus do?"

Hence, the desire for a BMW is judged by something larger.

Right. Now read very carefully, Kanzeon, because I think that the next part will be insightful for you.

Buddhism is about how to seek happiness and avoid suffering. That is the essential question in Buddhism. And the LOA is also about how to seek happiness and avoid suffering. That is the essential issue in the Abraham teachings.

As I have already explained, the central pillar in the Abraham teachings is emotional awareness. The essential teaching in Abraham is not to manifest a BMW convertible, nor is it to manifest world peace. The essential teaching in Abraham is to always move away from suffering (represented by negative emotions) towards happiness (represented by positive emotions).

"Suffering" in the Abraham EGS is represented by anger; revenge; hatred; rage; jealousy; insecurity; guilt; unworthiness; fear; grief; depression; despair and powerless.

"Happiness" in the Abraham EGS is represented by joy; knowledge; empowerment; freedom; love; appreciation; passion; enthusiasm; eagerness; happiness.

And there is a "middle" scale of emotions, represented by emotions such as optimism; contentment; boredom; pessimism; disappointment; doubt.

Contrary to what you have suggested, there is great cognizance within the Abraham teachings that people do suffer. The typical Abraham book in fact considers dozens of specific real-life examples of human sufferings, usually problems raised by real-life participants in the Abraham seminars.

For example, the person may say: "My husband has died. I miss him so much." Or "I feel so guilty that I am not able to help my aged mother, who is ill and faraway." Or "I have lost almost all my money in the financial crisis, how do I feed my family". Etc etc. In other words, not small problems at all.

In each scenario, the typical Abraham advice then centres around helping the person to find his way towards more positive thoughts. Not around manifesting a BMW convertible. But to help the person find his way to more positive thoughts. Abraham calls this process "allowing".

But if you are a Buddhist and you know your Buddhist teachings and you read what Abraham advises, then you actually know what Abraham is doing. In Buddhist terminology, Abraham is showing the person how to detach, how to give up his attachments. And by giving up his attachments, the joy comes.

Truly, Kanzeon, try not to criticise what you do not know.

Without such a perpective at its root, LOA cannot accomodate failure. We all die, we all suffer. LOA has no answer for that, other than it's your fault.

You do not know what Abraham says about death? Do you actually know? If you do not know what Abraham says about this topic, then do you know what Seth says about death? If you don't, well then, do you know what someone like, say, Deepak Chopra says about death?

Do you know, or do you not know?

If you do know, then we have something to discuss. If you do not know, then surely you are foolish to say that the LOA has no answer. Just because you personally do not know that X has an answer to Y, does not mean that X does not have an answer to Y.

You argue (incorrectly, in my opinion, but I do understand the perspective) that karma has the same attribute of blaming the victim.

I didn't argue that.

There is a point here which many people misunderstand. The simple fact is - I do not see blame in the LOA, and I do not see blame in karma. People are entirely responsible for their realities, but they are not to blame. Sounds like a paradox, but it is quite simple really.

The analogy I have often used in these forums to explain this point is that of a toddler learning to walk. The toddler stands up, the toddler falls down, the toddler feels pain. The toddler is entirely responsible for his own fall. But the toddler is not to blame. He is learning, that is all.

And we are all learning. We are all at different stages of learning, but we are all learning.

In LOA terms, we would say that the person is creating by default. He does not know how his thoughts create, and even if he does, he does not have sufficient control over his thoughts. Therefore he creates "bad" stuff - but he is not to blame, anymore than the toddler is to blame, for falling down.

In Buddhist terms, we might say that the person is failing to understand the nature of reality. He does not know that what he perceives is merely an illusion, and even if he does, he has not evolved enough to escape suffering altogether. Therefore he still suffers - but he is not to blame, anymore than the toddler is to blame, for falling down.


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I will address the rest of your post later.