Is the force behind I-M/LoA intelligent?

[SmartAlx]

What enables the LoA to work? Is it basically a complex series of rules, like the laws of physics, that we have not yet completely understood. Or is it more like a universal intelligence?

[joelr]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

What enables the LoA to work? Is it basically a complex series of rules, like the laws of physics, that we have not yet completely understood. Or is it more like a universal intelligence?

Probably laws of physics.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

What enables the LoA to work? Is it basically a complex series of rules, like the laws of physics, that we have not yet completely understood. Or is it more like a universal intelligence?

I subscribe to the theory that the true nature of reality and how everything works is very simple and not the big confusing mess that makes not much sense and is almost unknowable.

The Law of Attraction

Every other possible way it could work, is extremely complex in nature, design and application. If I'm right, well, then it's all good, if I'm wrong, then even that would be self created

Judge

[joelr]

That article reminds me of the problem with gravitons. If you have just one it works but with many it leads to paradoxes.
Unless many-worlds, 1 for each observer, is part of the model.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Is it basically a complex series of rules, like the laws of physics, that we have not yet completely understood. Or is it more like a universal intelligence?

It's a complex series of rules defining how a universal intelligence operates.

[magic1]

its not too difficult to understand nor a complex thing to master... in its very simplest form, just beleive, totally

its us that makes it confusing and complex

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

What enables the LoA to work? Is it basically a complex series of rules, like the laws of physics, that we have not yet completely understood. Or is it more like a universal intelligence?

You can choose what to believe about the LOA, and that will make it true

You may argue that that is not the case, and it must have a definite mechanism, in which case, that will be true

You can, if you wish, believe both of these possibilities, in which case they will both be true

Relativism and Omnipotence combined!

Such is the wonderful paradox of reality

We will see through this paradox, only if we transcend our duality to achieve unity

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

What enables the LoA to work? Is it basically a complex series of rules, like the laws of physics, that we have not yet completely understood. Or is it more like a universal intelligence?

Its quite simple really:

• Everything is one. Because of this connection, all energy is intelligent by default.
• Everything is simply consciousness in different expressions or forms.
  
• How the forms interact is a factor dependent on the logic of the form (i.e. square pegs do not fit in round holes, but they do fit in square holes). The fundamental logic of the reality must be followed unless the logic is changed.
  
• Consciousness directs form, because form is a reflection of consciousness.
  
• Like consciousness is attracted to like consciousness. <<< LoA.

[Acting Like Godot]

Ha! I just love your explanations, Anagogy.

Originally Posted by Anagogy

Its quite simple really:

• Everything is one. Because of this connection, all energy is intelligent by default.
• Everything is simply consciousness in different expressions or forms.
  
• How the forms interact is a factor dependent on the logic of the form (i.e. square pegs do not fit in round holes, but they do fit in square holes). The fundamental logic of the reality must be followed unless the logic is changed.
  
• Consciousness directs form, because form is a reflection of consciousness.
  
• Like consciousness is attracted to like consciousness. <<< LoA.

... even when they are a more long-winded version of my own. "It's a complex series of rules defining how a universal intelligence operates."

[Anagogy]

You're right, of course.

Sometimes I like to elaborate upon your wise sayings.

[seirwyn]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

Its quite simple really:

• Everything is one. Because of this connection, all energy is intelligent by default.
• Everything is simply consciousness in different expressions or forms.
  
• How the forms interact is a factor dependent on the logic of the form (i.e. square pegs do not fit in round holes, but they do fit in square holes). The fundamental logic of the reality must be followed unless the logic is changed.
  
• Consciousness directs form, because form is a reflection of consciousness.
  
• Like consciousness is attracted to like consciousness. <<< LoA.

woowww...deep man!!
You know some people beleive that even rocks have a form of consciousness? And trees and stars and water. There are some really interesting experiemnts done with ewater along these lines-and dont forget the experiemtn where people talk tp plants to help them grow!
Im not sure if the Loa is us or God and angels. I think its a bit of both. I think there is this univeersal matrix of consciousness. Jung said that everyone is connected on the subconscious level and I also read somewhere that there is this matrix of human consciousness. I think that maybe because the Divine consciousness is within everything that there is no delineation. But then I beleive that the Divine is loving, so when people manifest hate then that isnt from the Divine source. I think then that maybe we and the angels and God can all manipulate this 'force.'
To be honest, I dont really know.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

Its quite simple really:
...

• Like consciousness is attracted to like consciousness. <<< LoA.

I'd say:
Like consciousness is perceived by like consciousness. No attracting. All manifestation comes from the one, all-that-is. No rules or process, just the choice to experience something and the choice to perceive it.

[SimonaRich]

energy is intelligence. That's why we all can function, and we are all energy. Universal laws are here to guide us.

[magic1]

my view is this, we all have theories and stories and try to package it, and say we know truth....there are things I myself choose to just beleive, but at the end of the day it is all assumptions. And the only thing one has to go on is their own personal experience with it....

I am forming this website at the moment, and I am really struggling with the theory of it, yes I could write this and I could say that, but at the end of the day, how do I know, and how does anyone know for that matter...we know what we have read and have been told, and yes I would hazard a guess the energy thing is true, although I experience the matrix, spiritually, so I don't use the words attract, I say faith creates......... But if really honest, I only have what I have experienced directly, which I know to be solid, anything outside of that is anothers ideas....

truth is and probaly always will be one of those things that will be explained a multitude of ways, ie some say its god, others say is science, some day its both, some call it the matrix, others universe....these are our stories to say the same thing...we create...

But I guess what I am saying, is flag the theory and engage with it, test it, and experience it....that is where you will find absolute truth...by seeing it...

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by seirwyn

woowww...deep man!!
You know some people beleive that even rocks have a form of consciousness? And trees and stars and water. There are some really interesting experiemnts done with ewater along these lines-and dont forget the experiemtn where people talk tp plants to help them grow!
Im not sure if the Loa is us or God and angels. I think its a bit of both. I think there is this univeersal matrix of consciousness. Jung said that everyone is connected on the subconscious level and I also read somewhere that there is this matrix of human consciousness. I think that maybe because the Divine consciousness is within everything that there is no delineation. But then I beleive that the Divine is loving, so when people manifest hate then that isnt from the Divine source. I think then that maybe we and the angels and God can all manipulate this 'force.'
To be honest, I dont really know.

I think you're on the right track. I also believe every piece of energy/matter in the entire cosmos is alive and aware. Not aware in the way you and I are aware, but aware nonetheless. Awareness dictates form. Any form of kinetic energy imaginable is aware of its state of action. That is not to imply it is SELF aware, but it is focused and aware of movement of some kind or another.

And about the divine energy: either all is divine or all is not divine. There is no middle ground. A perfect god cannot create something imperfect. That would be an absurdity. So the divine is in everything. Hate and every other form of negativity is resistance or denial of the divine. When you move towards it, you feel GOOD. When you move away from it you feel BAD. As Abraham says, we lash out from our state of DISconnection, never from our state of CONNECTION.

Originally Posted by Dharma

I'd say:
Like consciousness is perceived by like consciousness. No attracting. All manifestation comes from the one, all-that-is. No rules or process, just the choice to experience something and the choice to perceive it.

I would say you're right, speaking from a level of oneness. But at this level there appears to be a process, though it may even ultimately be an illusion from a more broad perspective of being. From a completely awake standpoint, it could be exactly that: choice and experience. But where we are still operating from a limited sense of self, there is still a logic to our human self which to some degree or another must be followed (more on that below).

From the human personality level, we tend to think of it as a process of attraction, but in reality, and as you seem to innately realize, it is not a state of attraction, but rather manifestation. Some people may call it semantics, but I can sympathize with the desire for the distinction since the idea of a given "thing" floating around out here in what we call "reality" being "attracted" to this other thing we call "us" is not wholly accurate terminology for the metaphysics involved.

In reality, our consciousness does not end at our human personality/ego but extends through all existence, so we can't say we attracted "it" to "us" because it was never away from us to begin with. Attraction would require distance, when the concept of distance itself is, in fact, an illusion from a more etiolated perspective. It is not that we attracted it, we manifest what we find.

But as I said before, from my perspective there is a process involved at the human level of reality for awakening to the deeper reality that ALL is present already. As you are well aware, the human state is one of denial of abundance in many forms. The process of letting go of that denial can be interpreted in several ways and one of them is what is termed in popular culture as the "law of attraction".

When I was talking above about logic being followed, I meant that we have a form or structure to our consciousness. That is to say, we are human beings. We are also God, but awakening to that consciously appears to be difficult for many people, myself included. In order to get OUR consciousness to perceive, as you say, the consciousness we desire to perceive, we must become like that consciousness -- sort of like turning the dial on a radio to the frequency we desire to pick up.

You're right that its about choice. But that choice can be hard, because it asks us to change. If we had no reluctance/resistance/denial the manifestation would be instantaneous, because we would instantly be a vibrational match for our choice, just like at the source level, but at the human level the denial is not easily let go, so a buffer of time ends up getting involved. Also, for the gestalt of our reality to continue to be coherent (from a human standpoint) the logic of the reality must be followed. The logic of our reality is not easily let go. So being the humans that we are, we come up with techniques (presumably manifestation techniques) to give us the psychological impetus we need to actually change our consciousness, thereby ceasing the denial of abundance.

So at the end of the day, we are dealing with a great hierarchy of illusions, which grow less and less distorted the more broad our own awareness becomes. But then, people need to learn to crawl before they walk, and learn to run before they fly. Progression does have some merit, after all.

[magic1]

I have a question for all of you putting these theories out there, and it is a valid question that I am very much interested in hearing. With all of what you say...what do you see in your life that resembles your belief in this, so what is happening to you, what is showing up, what do you see and actually experience? what makes you feel that what you say is truth? where is this truth coming from?

[joelr]

Originally Posted by magic1

I have a question for all of you putting these theories out there, and it is a valid question that I am very much interested in hearing. With all of what you say...what do you see in your life that resembles your belief in this, so what is happening to you, what is showing up, what do you see and actually experience? what makes you feel that what you say is truth? where is this truth coming from?

For me, I visualize daily for specific periods of time on a thing, stay detached and positive and then I see that thing in the world. In a way that is seemingly unlikely to be a coincidence or random event.
Be it a lover, large sums of money, or things that make me uncomfortable to mention because if I feel like I'm bragging I get a bad feeling.

Sometimes things just appear after a while but often they appear with unusual synchronious events. Enough to see that this process is a real feature of physical reality.

To a lesser degree, when faced with challenges, I sometimes find myself dwelling on particular negative circumstances. If I continue this foolish behavior long enough I can see the original challenge re-manifested in reality.
Different person/place/thing but same challenge continually recreated until I put some effort into re-focusing my thoughts/feelings.
That serves as further re-enforcement that what is inside will manifest outside.

Beyond that basic IM I don't know. People are reading material and repeating it here. Maybe they have thought on it and added to it. Or meditated on it and gained added insight.
But they speak about it because it is something they choose to have "faith" in. Maybe experience also, that's for them to say.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by magic1

I have a question for all of you putting these theories out there, and it is a valid question that I am very much interested in hearing. With all of what you say...what do you see in your life that resembles your belief in this, so what is happening to you, what is showing up, what do you see and actually experience? what makes you feel that what you say is truth? where is this truth coming from?

My basic process is to find explanations for things that I observe in my experience. The theory must be logical, and it must also agree with my intuition. That doesn't necessarily make it right, but all we can ever do is continually refine our ability to observe, deduce, and reach for psychic guidance. Aside from a priori knowledge, these are our only methods of gaining information about the world.

I feel that the marriage between logic, intuition, and observation is the key to true spiritual growth.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

What enables the LoA to work? Is it basically a complex series of rules, like the laws of physics, that we have not yet completely understood. Or is it more like a universal intelligence?

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

I'm not ever going to use LoA. I've not made it a secret that I think that Intention/Manifestation is an instrument of the devil and it will end up destroying society one day.

post 195

You've already decided it works by means of the devil. Stop wasting people's time by asking questions you've already answered for yourself.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by cylon

You've already decided it works by means of the devil. Stop wasting people's time by asking questions you've already answered for yourself.

Appeal to motive. Look it up. You are committing this fallacy right now.

About your point. Maybe I'm wrong. Are you so closed minded to assume that I'm closed minded? I've considered the idea that I might be wrong. Have you? All I've been trying to do is to get any of you to open your minds.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by magic1

I have a question for all of you putting these theories out there, and it is a valid question that I am very much interested in hearing. With all of what you say...what do you see in your life that resembles your belief in this, so what is happening to you, what is showing up, what do you see and actually experience? what makes you feel that what you say is truth? where is this truth coming from?

The truth comes from the process of LOA it is the key fire starter to a chain of reactions that is a spiritual path (if you let it) it also comes from giving it a chance.. as a skeptic will just find skepticism per the rules of LOA

The truth comes from our selves.. as I'm sure you know magic that if you trust yourself enough.. you realize you validate your own truths.. yes, beautiful it is

Originally Posted by Anagogy

• Everything is one. Because of this connection, all energy is intelligent by default.
• (i.e. square pegs do not fit in round holes, but they do fit in square holes).

These are almost direct quotes of my teacher.. but certainly that is all I can recognize.. words/ideas can be muddled up thanks to a belief that language sucks

Is the force behind I-M/LoA intelligent?

Yes it is.. it is our selves..

[MacFly]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

I also believe every piece of energy/matter in the entire cosmos is alive and aware. Not aware in the way you and I are aware, but aware nonetheless. Awareness dictates form. Any form of kinetic energy imaginable is aware of its state of action. That is not to imply it is SELF aware, but it is focused and aware of movement of some kind or another.

I do not want to attack you or your beliefs in any way, but
these are typically nothing but words. no meaning.

every piece of matter is alive and aware? what does that really mean? "alive" and "aware" are nothing more than human-created words. they are good for practical things in daily life, but here they are meaningless.

A 3-inch rock in the space, half-way between Saturn and Jupiter is self-aware, or only aware, or alive. Don't you feel it is meaningless?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by MacFly

A 3-inch rock in the space, half-way between Saturn and Jupiter is self-aware, or only aware, or alive. Don't you feel it is meaningless?

Nope. That 3-inch rock halfway between Saturn and Jupiter is connected with everything else in the universe, and is constantly affecting and being affected by everything else in the universe.

Why?

Well, consider the Big Bang theory. That right before the beginning of the creation of the universe, all matter and energy was packed into an infinitesimally small, inifinitely dense point.

Meaning that all the sub-atomic particles which make up your 3-inch rock today were in contact with all the other sub-atomic particles in the universe today.

Next, consider the quantum entanglement theories. That if two subatomic particles have ever come into contact with each other, they are forever in quantum entanglement, meaning that 100,000,000 years later, even if the two particles are now 1,000,000,000 miles apart, a change in the state of one particle will affect the other particle at the speed of light.

Now ... put the Big Bang theory together with the quantum entanglement theories and what do you get?

Basically every part of the entire universe (regardless of how you define "aprt") is connected to every other single part of the universe. Every part is constantly transmitting and receiving information at the speed of light and altering its behaviour in response to its receipt of information.

Now if any one part is conscious and alive, you can see how it can become somewhat meaningless to speak of any other part being non-conscious and non-alive.

Because every intelligent, conscious, live behaviour by a conscious, live part of the universe instantly affects every other part, you see, and they all respond and in turn, all parts respond to each other's responses. There is no end, to the effects of one intelligent, conscious act.

Even your thinking, you see, is represented by the movement of subatomic particles (the electrons that move in your brain synapses as electrical impulses, as you think).

And now you see how your thinking affects the entire universe at the speed of light, don't you?

And also do you see how the entire universe must affect your thinking?

Do you begin to see how it grows more and more difficult to say that you are "here", a separate distinct self, and the rest of the universe is "there", separate from you?

Do you see how difficult it is to say where "you" ends?

There is no you. Buddhism told you that. There is no separate distinct self. There is no separate distinct anything. There is only one whole, unified reality.

You're that three-inch rock floating between Saturn and Jupiter. And you're everything else too.

And then suddenly you see how this connects with Steve Pavlina's subjective reality explanation. There is only you. You are everything. You are nothing. You are God. And reality is illusion. Your thoughts just go out there and make things to play with.

[cylon]

That's one of the best posts I've ever read on the subject.

Funny thing is I knew that, but allowed myself to forget and think I was separate again.

[magic1]

I think of it like this...a person who looses weight....where did the weight go? or a person who grows an inch, where did the inch come from....easier to digest for me!

[MacFly]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Nope. That 3-inch rock halfway between Saturn and Jupiter is connected with everything else in the universe, and is constantly affecting and being affected by everything else in the universe.

Why?

Well, consider the Big Bang theory. That right before the beginning of the creation of the universe, all matter and energy was packed into an infinitesimally small, inifinitely dense point.

Meaning that all the sub-atomic particles which make up your 3-inch rock today were in contact with all the other sub-atomic particles in the universe today.

Next, consider the quantum entanglement theories. That if two subatomic particles have ever come into contact with each other, they are forever in quantum entanglement, meaning that 100,000,000 years later, even if the two particles are now 1,000,000,000 miles apart, a change in the state of one particle will affect the other particle at the speed of light.

Now ... put the Big Bang theory together with the quantum entanglement theories and what do you get? (a third theory - McFly)

Basically every part of the entire universe (regardless of how you define "aprt") is connected to every other single part of the universe. (Yes - McFly) Every part is constantly transmitting and receiving information (?) at the speed of light and altering its behaviour in response to its receipt of information.

Now if any one part is conscious and alive, you can see how it can become somewhat meaningless to speak of any other part being non-conscious and non-alive.

That is exactly what I wrote. It's meaningless. It's also meaningless to say it IS alive or conscious. - McFly

Because every intelligent, conscious, live behaviour by a conscious, live part of the universe instantly affects every other part, you see, and they all respond and in turn, all parts respond to each other's responses. There is no end, to the effects of one intelligent, conscious act.

Even your thinking, you see, is represented by the movement of subatomic particles (the electrons that move in your brain synapses as electrical impulses, as you think).

And now you see how your thinking affects the entire universe at the speed of light, don't you?

And also do you see how the entire universe must affect your thinking?

Do you begin to see how it grows more and more difficult to say that you are "here", a separate distinct self, and the rest of the universe is "there", separate from you?

Do you see how difficult it is to say where "you" ends?

There is no you. Buddhism told you that. There is no separate distinct self. There is no separate distinct anything. There is only one whole, unified reality.

You're that three-inch rock floating between Saturn and Jupiter. And you're everything else too.

And then suddenly you see how this connects with Steve Pavlina's subjective reality explanation. There is only you. You are everything. You are nothing. You are God. And reality is illusion. Your thoughts just go out there and make things to play with.

A lot of what you write is true and beautiful the way you explain it. But another part is science fiction, and the whole theory is lost in words.

And now you see how your thinking affects the entire universe at the speed of light, don't you?


No. Maybe it SOUNDS true after your previous sentences, but I see no evidence that my thinking affects a rock on the Moon, or even my neighbour's dog.

I don't try to attack your theories, I'm not agaist it. It is just my observation, that these theories are nothing but good-sounding sentences after each other.

My thinking affects everything else in the Universe. Okay. But how much? In what way? Everytime? What is the rule?

And one question. If all of what you write is 100% true, then what?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by MacFly

but I see no evidence that my thinking affects a rock on the Moon, or even my neighbour's dog.

Of course you do not. With your usual five senses, you will not even "see" evidence that your red blood cells are alive, or that you have a brain, or a liver, or that the radio waves passing through your body carry song and music and information. Actually the only reason why your body works is that there are 2,500 different biochemical & physiological processes operating in it right now, but only a few, such as the beating of your heart and your own inhalation/exhalation, are perceptible to your usual 5 senses.

There are many things that you and I will not "see" with our normal five senses. This does not mean that they do not exist or are not happening or are insignificant.

You can't affect your neighbour's dog with your thoughts? Hmmm.

My thinking affects everything else in the Universe. Okay. But how much? In what way? Everytime? What is the rule?

Completely, of course and in every way and all the time. If you follow the Big Bang theory and the quantum entanglement theory, that's the necessary consequence.

And one question. If all of what you write is 100% true, then what?

It depends entirely on you - where you want to go with this. Maybe you'd like to have a peak experience, for example. American psychologist Abraham Maslow used to research those. It's that very rare, and usually very brief, experience that people occasionally report, whereby they inexplicably feel like they have lost their sense of limited self, and have become one with the universe.

Me, I'm just taking it one step at a time, in my personal explorations. Ultimately, I think I'd like to attain enlightenment. Actually I think that enlightenment is basically a sustained peak experience, as opposed to a brief episode of it.

But first, I'll just have fun manifesting assorted other intentions.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by MacFly

But another part is science fiction

Which part is science fiction?

Or did you mean to say, scientific theory?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by MacFly

my thinking affects a rock on the Moon

Can X in one place instantaneously affect Y which is in another very far away place?

Sounds strange, but then the principle of non-locality is quite well-established in quantum physics, and is no longer regarded as very controversial. When distance is no longer relevant, it is simply no longer relevant. It no longer matters whether the distance is 2 cm, or 10 inches, or 7 metres, or 8 miles, or 10,000 kilometres.

Can non-local effects be demonstrated, beyond the subatomic level? Sounds strange, but it has been demonstrated, in a wide variety of different types of experiments. See for example the scientific papers listed as nos. 1, 2, 3 and 12 in the list here.

Brief mention: in Radin's experiment, the thinkers are in Tokyo, and their thoughts produce changes, at the macroscopic level, in water crystals located in California. So this experiment both demonstrates the irrelevance of distance, and the possibility of effects at the macroscopic level.

Can your thinking affect rocks? At the moment, I'm not aware of any such scientific experiments on this (only of experiments about whether your thinking can affect living tissue; the lifespan of fruit flies; IQ of other people; learning ability of rats; cure of skin diseases; accelerated healing of broken bones in yourself; accelerated healing of other people's illnesses ...... etc etc).

But there are certainly many occult practitioners from different traditions (I mean, European, Asian, Native American as well as aboriginal Australians) who believe that their thoughts can affect rocks, as well as crystals, gems, stones etc. And that's why they have magickal or ceremonial practices involving stones, rocks etc. Crystals are a particular favourite with the New Age crowd. Anyway the simplest example of how some of these people believe that their thinking can affect rocks is that they carry out occult practices to make "magickal" stones - essentially by planting their intention into a rock or stone, such that it becomes, say, a "lucky" stone. Simple description of one such process - here.

If all the above are true (I emphasise, if)... That is,

distance is irrelevant;
effects can happen beyond the subatomic level; and
thinking can affect rocks ....

Then SURE. Bizarre as it sounds, the logical conclusion is yes, your thinking can affect a rock on the moon.

[MacFly]

I can absolutely accept that everything is connected. Scientists say that before the big bang, everything was "one" in a very little point. So it is believable that every atom is still connected in a way.

I have no problem accepting it. So it is believable, and would be logical, but is it ACTUALLY works that way?

Are my thoughts ACTUALLY connected with the "outer" world?

Even if they are, am "I" (the little me, who is under my control, who writes this) have ANY control over this "connection" and its power?

So I'm not against the idea that everything is connected, but is it worth speaking? At the end of the day, is it more than words?

Is it more than a good-sounding idea from the internet which makes me feel good for a few days, before the next bill comes?

A lot of "spiritual" people will say yes, but all of them go to work, have (or want to have) a family, watch baseball and like movies. So, from that point of view, is it worth to talk about?