My frame of mind does not define my reality.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

How do you know that it's not, oh say for example, one of Satan's demons making it work?

You scoff at the science, and say that there is no scientific proof of the existence of the LOA. Next you suggest that the LOA works, because a demon is making it work.

Boy, how ironic.

Logically, for such an argument to work, surely you should first provide scientific proof of the existence of demons.

But ok. Let's say you believe in the existence of God (kind, benevolent, loving) and also in Satan (bad, evil, malevolent force). And you also believe in the existence of the LOA, but are afraid that it's the devil at work.

Well, my advice to you would be to pray to God. Pray for whatever you think you can or should pray for. Pray deeply, sincerely and regularly.

From my perspective:

(a) Prayer is also a form of LOA, and deep prayer is a powerful form of LOA

(b) If you're praying to God, you can't be cavorting with the devil, right.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

HOW do you know that it works the way you think it works?

Same way that I know that anything works the way I think it works. Whether the subject-matter is stock markets, or rearing goldfish, or swimming the freestyle, or using the LOA.

I read. I learn. I analyse. I discuss. I try it out. I check results. Repeat cycle.

Of course, I can't claim to know EVERYTHING about how the LOA works. But I don't think that's a valid reason to presume that the devil is making it work. Similarly I don't know EVERYTHING about how my digestive system works. But that's not a valid reason to presume that the devil is behind my stomach acids.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

You accept no responsibility for other people.

LOL .... I don't know what kind of LOA books you're reading.

The ones I read tell me that I should accept complete responsibility for all other people in my reality ... not to mention every other thing in my reality.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

You scoff at the science, and say that there is no scientific proof of the existence of the LOA. Next you suggest that the LOA works, because a demon is making it work.

Boy, how ironic.

Logically, for such an argument to work, surely you should first provide scientific proof of the existence of demons.

Red Herring
Let's stay focused please. If the devil does not exist it does not mean that the LoA works the way you believe it does, nor does it mean that it's benevolent.

And besides I wasn't indicating (this time) that it was a demon that makes it work. I was asking YOU to consider that a demon might make it work. Totally different thing.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

I was asking YOU to consider that a demon might make it work. Totally different thing.

Ok ... Well, to consider that, I must have some idea of:

(1) what a demon might be; and
(2) what the LOA might be.

And according to my ideas of what demons might be, and what the LOA might be, well, demons do not make the LOA work.

However, according to those ideas of mine, all demons probably do use the LOA; just as all humans probably do use the LOA; and in fact, just as all types of conscious entities probably do use the LOA.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Sure! Use the advantage. But use it to help other people.

Again, that's your own opinion according to your own morality. Other people might not hold it, but that doesn't mean they are wrong.

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Here are some fallacies that you and a lot of LoA advocates commit:

Interesting you lumping me in with LoA advocates just because I challenged your view. Like I said, I don't know how I feel on this issue yet. I think how you view reality can have a large effect on your life, but I don't know if there's anything magical about it.

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

You didn't listen to what I was saying. You practiced. That's work. You earned the advantage. What enabled you to obtain the knowledge, to get better? Your persistence, your patience, your strength of character. Those are genetic qualities and they are passed down the gene pool.

But I still found methods that other people are ignorant of. You said since not everyone knows about LoA, then it is an unfair advantage.

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

No it's not. I'm not an instructor. I'm just a respected advanced salsa dancer.

My mistake.

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

According to anyone who feels oppression. Using your advantage for selfish gain is the definition of oppression. If you don't use your advantage appropriately, you are being oppressive. If you want to be that way fine, but I don't know how you can live with yourself. Don't pretend that you are a good person just because you aren't abusing someone with your advantage. Doing nothing for someone in need is just as bad as putting them in need.

Opression
–noun
1. the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.
2. an act or instance of oppressing.
3. the state of being oppressed.
4. the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc.

Remind me again, over whom am I wielding authority and power in a "burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner"?

It says nothing about using advantages for yourself, without helping others. Call it selfish if you want; that's fine. But I'm not seeing the oppressive aspect.

There are a lot of people in need right now that you are doing absolutely nothing for. How can you live with yourself?

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

You need to learn the difference between opinion and fact. Arguing with someone about which pizza topping is best is pointless, but if someone believes that 2+2 is 5, then you can prove it to them. Believing that 2+2=5 is wrong. It's not an opinion. It's just plain wrong and the person that believes it will eventually learn that their "opinion" is actually a falsehood.

Pot calling the kettle black much? Who here thinks a moral issue is a fact?

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

That would be a bit like wondering whether the tooth fairy actually has a valid licence to practise dentistry in the state of Wisconsin.

Moo!

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by cylon

Do you realize how foolish it is posting about your personal problems in the context of a belief system you think is evil? You realize there are other parts of this forum. Perhaps Personal Effectiveness would be more up your alley. But then you'd miss out on taking out your inner rage on people who believe in something differently than you.

If I were you I'd take a major inventory of how I am spending my time, and why.

Most of the posts I have read on this forum have been to do with personal problems and I think it is not so narrow minded as you are trying to make it look. If you are hitting blanks as far as responses are concerned, why don’t you please accept it rather than vent your now common rage to a persons genuine concern because it is not in agreement with your new age stuff!

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Now, anyone care to answer my question? HOW do you know that it works the way you think it works? How do you know that it's not, oh say for example, one of Satan's demons making it work?

Wait a minute SmartAlx who are you to call someone’s god a demon, don’t you think you completely ignorant about the power of realism? L.O.A, I.M, etc.

[floslib]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

According to anyone who feels oppression. Using your advantage for selfish gain is the definition of oppression. If you don't use your advantage appropriately, you are being oppressive. If you want to be that way fine, but I don't know how you can live with yourself. Don't pretend that you are a good person just because you aren't abusing someone with your advantage. Doing nothing for someone in need is just as bad as putting them in need.

You need to learn the difference between opinion and fact. Arguing with someone about which pizza topping is best is pointless, but if someone believes that 2+2 is 5, then you can prove it to them. Believing that 2+2=5 is wrong. It's not an opinion. It's just plain wrong and the person that believes it will eventually learn that their "opinion" is actually a falsehood.

Thank you for elaborating on the difference between opinion and fact. What you say doesn't invalidate anything that you responded to, as pianoperformer was disagreeing with your opinion. It is your opinion that anyone with an advantage should spend their lives serving those weaker than themselves. It's my opinion that you're wrong.

Some forms of power lend themselves to serving others. For instance, those in political power should be serving those weaker than themselves, because they implicitly agreed to do so in exchange for that power. Someone born with wealth, or charm, or any other such advantage isn't obligated to use it for anyone. They made no agreement to do so. If you claim anyone with an advantage is bound to use it to make the lives of those less fortunate better, then you've created a system that enslaves the powerful to the weak, which is no better than enslaving the weak to the powerful.

Now, that's not to say I think people with power shouldn't help those who need the help. Service to others is an extraordinary gift that I wholeheartedly encourage. However, no one should be forced to serve, it should be of their own free will.

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Now, anyone care to answer my question? HOW do you know that it works the way you think it works? How do you know that it's not, oh say for example, one of Satan's demons making it work?

To be honest, I think you've really been pushing hard in this thread, and making unreasonable demands for an explanation. Intention manifestation isn't something we can just set up a scientific test to prove, and figure out how it works, what causes it to work, and so on.

It's a philosophical belief system that appears to produce good results to some people. That's it. You can't determine how something works until you can study it in a scientific fashion, and this is something we can't do (at least right now) with IM.

So, to answer your question as best I can: we don't know it works the way we think it works. In fact, it probably doesn't work the way we think it works, because if we knew how it worked, we'd get results from it way more reliably.

That said, I'm okay with that. You know why? Because you can't live your life in fear that everything you do will hurt you or someone else. If you did, you could never be in a relationship with anyone, because you might hurt them in the end. You couldn't drive, you might get in a car accident and hurt yourself or someone else. You couldn't leave the house, because you might get hit by a car or struck by lightning. You couldn't stay in the house, because it might collapse on you. You'd have no where to go, and be constantly scared of everything. So, we don't know how it works, but our best guess says it seems to work in a way that benefits those who use it properly without harming others. So, that's what we work with.

While your "what if" questions are something to consider, without some support aside from you asking what if we're wrong, they aren't a reason to stop using IM in order to help ourselves and others.

[Arboretor]

Good post, floslib.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by joelr

Out of the blue? All the time? There you go! You have that belief system that things will work out - but just barely. Or there is always some pain in the ass process attached to success. Then it happens - all the time. Probabilistically that shouldn't happen all the time. That is very LOA sounding.

Don't confuse LOA with magic. It's the buildup of beliefs and such over TIME. You don't just get mad at your computer and destroy it with your mind. Actually in that case it sounds like you diffused the energy by feeling it and then began the detachment process by thinking of alternatives. So that bad energy wasn't much of an influence.

I think this is such an excellent explanation. Any time we find ourselves going, "WHY is it ALWAYS like this?!?!" is a good moment to realize that's the LOA in action.

It seems to take a little time to unravel that buildup of beliefs, like a giant ship that you can't just turn around on a dime.