What other theories are there that are like IM but work with objective reality?

[Sanity Panda]

I'm looking for theories or ideas that allow thoughts to affect reality. However is different to IM in the sense that it doesn't have complete control over reality...

Why do I search for this? Because I'm not prepared to accept the implications of LOA and IM. Things such as loved ones are merely a creation of my thoughts, to me that's essentially an illusion that I've made to comfort myself in that case. (Even though the idea of an illusion is meaningless because the subjective is real. There's nothing objective therefore no such thing as an illusion.)

Is there any theories that integrates IM with objective reality?

PS. It doesn't count if I use LOA/IM to believe that objective reality exists. Cause really that's just coming from me still.

I realise this is looking at LOA perhaps from a wrong angle, but it's an angle that I want to hold onto for the time being.

That there's an objective reality however I will percieve everything subjectively, and that without my existance. This objective reality will still exist.

Thanks.

[TheSceptic]

Yeah, I'm looking for something like this also. But that's going to take some time to work out I guess. The problem (to me) is that there are very few comprehensive approaches to life. Most come down to one concept that is supposed to solve all problems.

For a law of attraction this is something like "if you put your mind in the right mindset, you will get what you want". And that's valuable advice, but it is very much incomplete, it is just one piece of the puzzle. It is not the puzzle itself. Other pieces include, for example, developing a bit of self-discipline, good working habits, all kinds of ways to handle your emotions, self-reflection, and so on.

Maybe something of what you seek can be found in the book "The Alchemist" by Paulo Coelho. In part this is a magical tale. But it also tells a thing which is essential to success or living well in objective reality: you have to open yourself up to opportunities which arise, whatever form they take. In our world (that is, if you believe in objective reality as I do), all kinds of opportunities arise, all kinds of new doors open all the time.

No magical universe is required for this: chance offers plenty of opportunities (especially if you live in a free and rich western society). You just need to open your mind to actually perceiving these opportunities.

For example, if someone is low on cash and cannot pay his bills, he may start to focus on "getting money". Hence, he'll buy a lottery ticket or harass his boss into giving him a higher wage. This focus, however, may be exactly what is stopping him from perceiving the real opportunities which chance offers to him. For example, he may have missed an ad for a better job, or failed to look at opportunities to save on expenses. Hence, part of the solution is letting go of the "solutions" which you immediately perceive, and open yourself up to other solutions which you might not have considered otherwise. Coelho nicely portrays this process in The Alchemist.

More may be required to perceive opportunities well, however. For example, you might need to read more about certain subjects, such as what kind of activities are involved with different jobs, to see the opportunities that are offered to you specifically. It might just be that some nice job you'll have more fun with and get more cash with is very possible for you. Or it might not, there's always chance to deal with. But generally in our society there are a lot of opportunities to be found.

Oh well, but that does not add up to something comparable to the LoA. I'm still thinking about a way to put this into a comprehensive approach...

[jeff3]

You could just "intend" to live in a reality like the one you wish to experience and it will be so....for you. We all do this with our personal reality, the believers, skeptics, and all those in between.

[Sanity Panda]

Originally Posted by jeff3

You could just "intend" to live in a reality like the one you wish to experience and it will be so....for you. We all do this with our personal reality, the believers, skeptics, and all those in between.

The thing is there is no "we" - That's my biggest problem. You are just an illusion, an extention/someone created by me. Essentially I am a lonely God if I intend/create everything.

Hence my desire to look for a theory that supports that individuals do exist seperately (You and me) and we can both intend for ourselves. This is what I currently believe and I'm searching for ideas that support this.

Or have I misunderstood what LOA/IM is and what it's implications are.

[TheSceptic]

Originally Posted by jeff3

You could just "intend" to live in a reality like the one you wish to experience and it will be so....for you. We all do this with our personal reality, the believers, skeptics, and all those in between.

Until reality hits you in the face. That's how my reality works.

[TheSceptic]

Originally Posted by Sanity Panda

Or have I misunderstood what LOA/IM is and what it's implications are.

I believe that there are some thories about "shared consciousness" and that everyone "creates" reality by "intending" it together or something, but I expect that there are other people better suited at explaining this than I am

[Xanafax]

You are trying to deny reality.

You want to be in control of your day to day existence, yet you shy away from your responsibility.

You want your cake, and to eat it too.

Live either as an objective person, an individual, or live as a subjective person, the sum total of all existence being projected.

Either way can work. However by trying to do both you don't reach the synergy you truly want, instead you have a negation, a zero-sum collision of ideas, like an Electron and a Positron colliding, total annihilation.

[Sanity Panda]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

You are trying to deny reality.

You want to be in control of your day to day existence, yet you shy away from your responsibility.

You want your cake, and to eat it too.

Live either as an objective person, an individual, or live as a subjective person, the sum total of all existence being projected.

Either way can work. However by trying to do both you don't reach the synergy you truly want, instead you have a negation, a zero-sum collision of ideas, like an Electron and a Positron colliding, total annihilation.

Looks like it wasn't long before someone picked up on what exactly I was looking for when examining my core beliefs on the issue. Truth is I don't doubt that LOA/IM certainly works for individuals on this forum. However there's heavy implications on me accepting this idea.
The main one being that there's no such thing as objective reality if what others say is true. It's entirely subjective reality.

You can argue that I'm denying SR. I'd say that's accurate because I don't want to believe in it, and to an extent don't really believe in it considering I'm more in favour of an objective reality. HOWEVER that doesn't solve the problem I have. The belief that LOA/IM can be real but that SR is false. They are contradicting beliefs at the moment and that's a big problem. Therefore I'm looking for something that combines OR and IM/LOA.

I don't think it's totally a case of running away from my responsbilities. I'm also sure there are theories about SR/OR co-existing at the same time.

[cylon]

Why not just make up your own? Take all the stuff you like from IM and all the stuff you like from OR and call it a theory.

That or you can keep looking outside yourself for the answers but who knows how long that can take.

[Sanity Panda]

Originally Posted by TheSceptic

I believe that there are some thories about "shared consciousness" and that everyone "creates" reality by "intending" it together or something, but I expect that there are other people better suited at explaining this than I am

That's that sort of thing I'm looking for. I don't mind that...

Thing is with SR/IM/LOA combo is that technically... I'm just advising myself when I ask for others for help in which... Angels/Spirits/Guides/Career advisors/Teachers and all this are just manifestations. Why don't I just ask myself in that case instead of going through them.

Totally gone off topic now though.

[Sanity Panda]

Originally Posted by cylon

Why not just make up your own?

Doesn't that still technically count as subjective reality?
I might take what I want and say that it's objective reality but really I'd just feel like I'm lying to myself and pretending that it is so.

Man. I'm going in circles.

[Xanafax]

You want to have this control that LoA promises, but you don't want to be responsible for reality. That's running away from your responsibilities.

However so is wanting objective reality and not accepting your own happiness as the most important thing.

Think about it this way.

LoA demands that you believe that the world is flexible. Aristotle says A=A, LoA says A=Whatever you want it to be.

Now I am not criticising either view of reality.

I am trying to highlight the contradiction you want to force into existence. You want A=A, your family will be autonomous, free willed beings, your house will persist whether you're aware of it or not etc...

Yet you also want to be able to change your beliefs and see it all change before you, without responsibility. A=?.

So the choice is really down to you. There is no synergy between fundamentally opposing ideas no matter how much you want it to be true.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Sanity Panda

Doesn't that still technically count as subjective reality?
I might take what I want and say that it's objective reality but really I'd just feel like I'm lying to myself and pretending that it is so.

Man. I'm going in circles.

So you want something on the left but also want something on the right.

[cylon]

You might want to read more of Steve's writings on subjective reality. I'm sure there are other ways to look at it. Right now you seem to be at solipsism, where you think you're real, but everyone else is an illusion. In SR, you are just as much an illusion as everyone else in your life.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

You want to have this control that LoA promises, but you don't want to be responsible for reality. That's running away from your responsibilities.

I see this as a common factor with just about everyone on this board, including me. We want the good stuff but the bad stuff we immediately categorize as coming outside of ourselves. The good stuff, we take all the credit for.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by TheSceptic

Until reality hits you in the face. That's how my reality works.

Well, that sounds a little less painful than reality hitting you like a brick wall.

I'm looking for theories or ideas that allow thoughts to affect reality.

Sanity Panda, you don't have to use a subjective reality lens to be congruent with a belief that your thoughts affect reality. It's easy to understand that you have an unconscious mind, isn't it, a portion of your brain that runs as your operating system while your conscious mind takes care of the 7 plus or minus 2 things it can handle in any given moment? I think there is plenty of objective scientific facts about the workings of the unconscious.

And it's not difficult to see that the workings of your conscious and your unconscious actually affect how the world occurs for you, is it? And how the world occurs for you is your reality -- as we've discussed in other threads lately, even in an objective reality, there are some subjective experiences that require no proof in a lab or a court of law. You can just know, for instance, that you love someone or that you enjoy pizza. And that knowing still fits into your objective model of the world, right?

So: let's say you go through life believing that people are basically bastards, self-absorbed and out to gain at your expense. Your entire reality will be filtered through that lens, and your life will be totally informed by that belief.

And then one day you shift your perspective and you see that it's actually YOU who has been generating self-absorption and a win/lose attitude -- that you have been actually creating the very thing you loathe most about the world. You suddenly recognize that you've been projecting your own unconscious gunk (that's the scientific term) out onto your external experience. There's nothing magical or supernatural in that; it's simply a matter of psychological projection.

For instance, if you believe you are worthless, you'll continually find evidence for your worthlessness, just like when you decide to buy a Smart Car, you start seeing Smart Cars everywhere you go. It's not that worthlessness and Smart Cars are suddenly more abundant in physical reality; it's just that your belief and intention is working like a filter and a magnifying glass, and you see the world as being filled with Smart Cars or evidence of your worthlessness.

And in that moment, you recognize that you have a choice: you can keep projecting that belief out onto the world, or you can choose something else that might work better. You choose, maybe: Being Forgiveness, and Being Love.

So, today, you walk around deliberately letting go of thoughts like: "that bastard cut me off -- *******! Get out of my way!" and practice deliberately thinking things like, "Wow, he's in more of a hurry than I am. I am so glad that I've left myself plenty of time to get where I'm going -- that poor guy may live his whole life hurrying and scurrying. I've been there, too -- it doesn't feel good! I wish him peace and presence in his life, and I wish me that, too." And your entire experience of your commute transforms. You can suddenly see beauty and love where there was none. Your REALITY has changed.

And objective reality, as you know it, remains in place.

The thing is that when you change your reality in this way, by deliberately thinking thoughts that feel good, suddenly you have access to resources that were buried in your unconscious and bubble up to a useful awareness. Suddenly you begin to recognize little blockages that you've had that have kept you from getting the things in physical reality that you want -- like money, sex, romance, a new car, etc..... like maybe you recognize that it has been YOUR ATTITUDE that has kept you from getting a raise, not that your boss is a bastard. It's YOUR FEAR that has makes those beautiful girls sneer when you're around, not that they are stuck up wenches. All of a sudden you realize that you have the power to utterly transform your bastard boss into a fountain of abundance in your life, and transform stuck-up wenches into lovely and delightful opportunities for relationship. THEY don't have to do anything for this transformation to take place -- YOU have all the power in the world to change how they occur for you, and you can make evaluations that work in your life, rather than judgements that cut off possibility and choice in your life.

You can have it all -- everything you want, all your dreams come true -- without having to believe in anything new-age whooo-whooo subjective mind-twisty.

You can have your truth and eat it, too.

[Sanity Panda]

Alright. I'm a believer in objective reality. There's no real doubt about that as I personally think it's true.

Should I now come to the conclusion that any believer in LOA/IM is crazy and that it's all a lie?

How exactly am I meant to deal with the cognitive dissonance that LOA/IM exists and that objective reality exists. According to both of you, it's not possible at all. Clearly I feel differently on the matter unless...

a) I'm in denial of SR.
b) I don't really believe that LOA works.

Which is it?

Suppose there's always the third option that I am actually correct but haven't found a way to explain it.
(Irony... this sounds so SR at the moment. =.=)

[Sanity Panda]

Originally Posted by Angela

Sanity Panda, you don't have to use a subjective reality lens to be congruent with a belief that your thoughts affect reality. It's easy to understand that you have an unconscious mind, isn't it, a portion of your brain that runs as your operating system while your conscious mind takes care of the 7 plus or minus 2 things it can handle in any given moment? I think there is plenty of objective scientific facts about the workings of the unconscious.

And it's not difficult to see that the workings of your conscious and your unconscious actually affect how the world occurs for you, is it? And how the world occurs for you is your reality -- as we've discussed in other threads lately, even in an objective reality, there are some subjective experiences that require no proof in a lab or a court of law. You can just know, for instance, that you love someone or that you enjoy pizza. And that knowing still fits into your objective model of the world, right?

So: let's say you go through life believing that people are basically bastards, self-absorbed and out to gain at your expense. Your entire reality will be filtered through that lens, and your life will be totally informed by that belief.

And then one day you shift your perspective and you see that it's actually YOU who has been generating self-absorption and a win/lose attitude -- that you have been actually creating the very thing you loathe most about the world. You suddenly recognize that you've been projecting your own unconscious gunk (that's the scientific term) out onto your external experience. There's nothing magical or supernatural in that; it's simply a matter of psychological projection.

For instance, if you believe you are worthless, you'll continually find evidence for your worthlessness, just like when you decide to buy a Smart Car, you start seeing Smart Cars everywhere you go. It's not that worthlessness and Smart Cars are suddenly more abundant in physical reality; it's just that your belief and intention is working like a filter and a magnifying glass, and you see the world as being filled with Smart Cars or evidence of your worthlessness.

And in that moment, you recognize that you have a choice: you can keep projecting that belief out onto the world, or you can choose something else that might work better. You choose, maybe: Being Forgiveness, and Being Love.

So, today, you walk around deliberately letting go of thoughts like: "that bastard cut me off -- *******! Get out of my way!" and practice deliberately thinking things like, "Wow, he's in more of a hurry than I am. I am so glad that I've left myself plenty of time to get where I'm going -- that poor guy may live his whole life hurrying and scurrying. I've been there, too -- it doesn't feel good! I wish him peace and presence in his life, and I wish me that, too." And your entire experience of your commute transforms. You can suddenly see beauty and love where there was none. Your REALITY has changed.

And objective reality, as you know it, remains in place.

I love this. Thanks Angela.
It's the reason I love psychology. Learning about how perception of the world has such a huge influence on our actions that impact the objective reality.

The thing is that when you change your reality in this way, by deliberately thinking thoughts that feel good, suddenly you have access to resources that were buried in your unconscious and bubble up to a useful awareness. Suddenly you begin to recognize little blockages that you've had that have kept you from getting the things in physical reality that you want -- like money, sex, romance, a new car, etc..... like maybe you recognize that it has been YOUR ATTITUDE that has kept you from getting a raise, not that your boss is a bastard. It's YOUR FEAR that has makes those beautiful girls sneer when you're around, not that they are stuck up wenches. All of a sudden you realize that you have the power to utterly transform your bastard boss into a fountain of abundance in your life, and transform stuck-up wenches into lovely and delightful opportunities for relationship. THEY don't have to do anything for this transformation to take place -- YOU have all the power in the world to change how they occur for you, and you can make evaluations that work in your life, rather than judgements that cut off possibility and choice in your life.

You can have it all -- everything you want, all your dreams come true -- without having to believe in anything new-age whooo-whooo subjective mind-twisty.

You can have your truth and eat it, too.

That certainly makes sense. It's just that some of the claims made by the SR/LOA/IM combo move into paranormal activities. Things like manifesting without action (Assuming you have enough faith.)

[Sanity Panda]

Originally Posted by cylon

You might want to read more of Steve's writings on subjective reality. I'm sure there are other ways to look at it. Right now you seem to be at solipsism, where you think you're real, but everyone else is an illusion. In SR, you are just as much an illusion as everyone else in your life.

That was really insightful. That's one thing that I didn't know about SR. Thank you.

Originally Posted by cylon

I see this as a common factor with just about everyone on this board, including me. We want the good stuff but the bad stuff we immediately categorize as coming outside of ourselves. The good stuff, we take all the credit for.

I was looking more towards the line of. We can generate good and bad stuff using LOA/IM for ourselves. But other good and bad stuff can still come from outside sources. Therefore I won't be taking all the credit for what's happening, even if it's good.

In the same way. Something bad has occured to me, it might be a result of my own IM. However it might be a result of outside sources as well. I'm not sherking away from my responsibility of using LOA in that sense... I'm looking for something, something that allows for greater control but not absolute control.

Suppose LOA does not support that belief.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Sanity Panda

Should I now come to the conclusion that any believer in LOA/IM is crazy and that it's all a lie?

Totally. You can now make fun of us and call us names. You couldn't do that before when you thought we were all connected, but now that we're separate, your ego can start getting self-righteous. Party time!

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Sanity Panda

How exactly am I meant to deal with the cognitive dissonance that LOA/IM exists and that objective reality exists.

This is the problem with not trusting yourself and not taking responsibility. No matter how many philosophies you're exposed to, it still falls on you to internalize it, implement it, and stay consistent to it.

"Objective Reality" can't do this for you no matter how much you want it to. You have to subjectively control your experience of the objective.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Sanity Panda

I was looking more towards the line of. We can generate good and bad stuff using LOA/IM for ourselves. But other good and bad stuff can still come from outside sources. Therefore I won't be taking all the credit for what's happening, even if it's good.

For me LOA/IM is a matter of taking greater control of our realities as opposed to absolute control. I suppose by definition that's no longer LOA though.

For myself, I don't see how you can only have "some" control. How could you possibly know where to draw that line. To me it's all or nothing.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Sanity Panda

It's just that some of the claims made by the SR/LOA/IM combo move into paranormal activities.

People make all kinds of claims about all kinds of things. Think of it as schmorgasbord and just take the things that work well for you, and pass by the stuff that doesn't.

If you linger over the stuff that doesn't work, judging it and making it wrong -- and telling people they're wrong for choosing it -- it's like going to the schmorgasbord and picking up those stinky little fishies and putting them on your plate and getting sick to your stomach and shoving your plate under the nose of all the other diners -- "LOOK how AWFUl these stinky little fishies are! Yeccchhhh! Doesn't this make you sick? What's wrong with you that you would eat that!? Blechhh! Schmorgasbord would be so GOOD if it weren't for these stinky little fishies and all the crazy people who eat them!!"

[Bradshaw]

I just want to say that schmorgasbord looks delicious.

Yummy.

(To the OP, you just want some variation of a thoughts-affect-reality model right? Then simply adopt the following beliefs: Objective reality is real; I can affect reality with my thoughts; Everyone else can affect reality with their thoughts; I have no clue how my thoughts affect reality, but they do; There. That should work. You have no ideia how you're doing it, but you still do it and everyone else can do it too, while still maintaining an objective reality.)

[Sanity Panda]

Originally Posted by cylon

Totally. You can now make fun of us and call us names. You couldn't do that before when you thought we were all connected, but now that we're separate, your ego can start getting self-righteous. Party time!

Bah. You fool!
only it's not for believing SR but that I'm not one step further in terms of making them compatible.

Originally Posted by cylon

This is the problem with not trusting yourself and not taking responsibility. No matter how many philosophies you're exposed to, it still falls on you to internalize it, implement it, and stay consistent to it.

"Objective Reality" can't do this for you no matter how much you want it to. You have to subjectively control your experience of the objective.

Certainly looks like it.
Time to start coming up with theories explaining my experience of the objective world.

Originally Posted by cylon

For myself, I don't see how you can only have "some" control. How could you possibly know where to draw that line. To me it's all or nothing.

Well...
I suppose that's one of the things about being in the objective world. You might not know where the line is about how much control you have as opposed to an outside source. But that doesn't mean that the line of influence doesn't exist, it exists.

For me. The line could be fluctuating, therefore it can never be drawn properly. It needn't be all or nothing.

[Sanity Panda]

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

I just want to say that schmorgasbord looks delicious.

Yummy.

(To the OP, you just want some variation of a thoughts-affect-reality model right? Then simply adopt the following beliefs: Objective reality is real; I can affect reality with my thoughts; Everyone else can affect reality with their thoughts; I have no clue how my thoughts affect reality, but they do; There. That should work. You have no ideia how you're doing it, but you still do it and everyone else can do it too, while still maintaining an objective reality.)

Thanks for that.
Yeah suppose that works. Perhaps I shouldn't question how it works and just focus on the fact that it's occuring.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Sanity Panda

But that doesn't mean that the line of influence doesn't exist, it exists.

You sure about that?

[Sanity Panda]

Originally Posted by cylon

You sure about that?

Nope.
It's true that the objective reality can not be proven... but that doesn't mean it can't exist as well. I've been thinking abit more about the whole issue after reading previous threads. Wouldn't an objective knowing of consciousness be enough to support the idea that both objective and subjective reality exists.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Sanity Panda

Wouldn't an objective knowing of consciousness be enough to support the idea that both objective and subjective reality exists.

What?

[Sanity Panda]

Originally Posted by cylon

What?

Do you believe you exist?

I suppose SR needs a reference point to experience things, and that reference point is objective reality. Hope that makes more sense?