Study: Prayer does not work

[spirited]

I am sure most of you will have heared of this study: Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
How do IM believers explain those results?

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

[JOE]

RIGHT AWAY something jumps out at me, THE PRAYER SEEMS TO BE SET IN A FUTURE TENSE THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO AGREE WITH STEVE PAVLINA's and other LOA literature. Steve suggests that we act and feel as if the desired outcome was already a reality


Gregg Braden mentions and discusses these very issues in most of his books

I like his writing

he does follow LOA but calls it the power of prayer

Really like Gregg's stuff....religious without being annoying or preachy

[TheColonel]

In my experience, for a prayer to be effective, it must be spoken in the present tense from a standpoint of gratitude that it is already done.

In other words, most people pray wrong.

This is entirely consistent with everything from LoA to Jesus' instructions to Wiccan prayers to Magickal incantations.

When you beg for something you don't have - or pray for it in the future, you get exactly what you pray for...not having it, and always having it in the future, not now.

[JOE]

Exactly That Is What Braden States And People From Jesus And Even Further Back Have Been Stating

[LuckEnova]

I completely agree with both TheColonel and JOE's replies!

And, as these statements are completely backed up within the LOA, they are also backed up in the Bible (since most refering to "prayer" are thinking more on a Christian belief system).

Jesus said, "Whatsoever things ye ask for when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, a ye shall have them."

[alexb5784]

Most people have prayers like this:

Please let me have xxx. or I really want my xxx to get better. Please help me God/Universe/Whatever you prefer to call it.

Then they say their prayers and do nothing to make the prayers manifest. It's like people doing IM and waiting for stuff to fall out of the sky. If I were sick, I would craft my intentions as:

I'm feeling better from this surgery and I plan to do xxx as soon as I leave the hospital. I'm healthier than I was when I arrived. I'm enjoying my life more and taking less for granted. I'm grateful for all that I have and the people in my life, etc...

This why, in my mind I'm seeing myself as already healed. I don't see myself feeling better in the future, but as feeling better right now. Of course I might still have pain, but I could think about it this way:

The pain that I'm expericing is leading to my healing. I must go through this pain in order for my body to heal. It's part of my renewal process. All pain leads to improved strenghth and better health.

That's my 2 cents

[bollenbach]

not to sound harsh..

but I don't think that this is something that needs to have been tested out. I take... in this situation... as prayers being sort of like... giving your best wishes to someone.

[Matthew Shea]

By fixing part of the content of the prayer, they're taking some of the heart out of it. Whatever the case, though, I think studying a faith-based issue is missing the point. What difference will it make if you can scientifically say that prayer either does or doesn't work? Will you convince a non-believer to be faithful? Will you convince a believer that s/he's wrong? I VERY much doubt it either way. Prayer isn't about science. It's about a belief that's not either rational or scientific at heart. It's something you either accept or you don't.

Another problem I see is that the people being prayed for didn't know the people praying. When you don't know someone, your prayers for them are not going to be as heartfelt or genuine because you don't have a personal relationship to bind you together and have no vested interest in the outcome. When it's your grandma going in for heart surgery you're going to pray a lot harder than if it was Jane Doe.

Personally, I doubt they'll ever come to a firm conclusion on this. The researchers of this study even stated that it won't be the final word. In other words, they knew their methods were imperfect. I think that perfecting those methods will be a wild goose chase for those who undertake it.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by spirited

I am sure most of you will have heared of this study: Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
How do IM believers explain those results?

Fairly easy to explain. You had a conscious or subconscious intention to find an article that casts doubt on something like IM and so you found this study.

The study itself is flawed from my perspective because it doesn't take into account the intentions of the family of the person or even the PERSON themselves!

For example, if someone suffers from a low self image and doesn't feel like they are worth it,and they feel like their life is a waste of time, and thus they consume craploads of junk food, smoke etc. and don't care about their future they will manifest corinary disease. To think that someone (strangers) outside of that person can come in and override that person's intentions by praying for them is kind of rediculous.

The reason they had to do it with strangers is because they wouldn't be able to tell the family of a person NOT TO PRAY for them just to do a study because nobody would let their loved ones die for a study like this. The researchers had to assume that family members that care about a person will pray regardless whether they tell them to or not. No way to tell if someone is praying since it's in your head.

Where does the study show how many of the patients prayed for themselves before and after surgery?

Where does the study show which of the paitents had family praying for them?

All I can tell you is this. If I was ill I would pray for myself and would welcome any and all positive prayer from loved ones or strangers on my behalf, regardless of what this or any other study shows.

I can't remember where I read this, but there is a doctor somewhere who did some research with his cancer patients and found that over 75% of them had consitent thoughts of ending their life over the last 12 months before developing that cancer. That was their intention. They probably weren't thinking cancer, but more like 'I hate my life.' or 'Life sucks.' etc.

Man, if you could hook up a loudspeaker to people's brains so you could hear the thoughts they are thinking it would probably blow you away just how much negative thinking goes on in people's brains. It's horrifying how much negativing most people think of. I used to know a kid in school that would hit his fist against his forehead and say "I'm so STUPID, I'm so STUPID!" and like tense all his muscles in his body whenever he got one wrong on a math test. Like the teacher would hand out the tests and he would get 34 out of 35 and he would start pounding his head for like 20 seconds. We all thought he was wacked, but I bet 90% of the room was THINKING the same thoughts, just not vocalizing them.

[nara]

Great article! It's nice to see studies being done in this area. It raises many questsions though so hopefully we will see more studies done soon.

Here is another article I read on prayer.
Wired - A prayer before dying

It is about Elisabeth Targ, who conducted a study of prayer on AIDS patients. The study had positive results and was even published in the peer reviewed Western Journal of Medicine. Unfortunately, it was later found that the rigourous testing the study was often heralded for was not so rigourous. The study is no longer taken very seriously or given much credit.

That is not the reason I'm posting it here though. Main reason is because it is a good story and I think all of you LoA buffs will find it interesting.

[DiscoDan]

Matthew nailed it: it is not so much the words we use when praying, as it is the emotion behind the words. Two individuals with a deep connection will therefore benefit more from prayer from each other than they would from an arbitrarily large sample of strangers. Since the study limited the individuals praying to complete strangers, there clearly will be no statistical difference between the two groups.

However, if you happen to know of other studies the delve into the area of prayer between highly connected individuals, feel free to let us know. I personally would like to see the results of such a study.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Man, if you could hook up a loudspeaker to people's brains so you could hear the thoughts they are thinking it would probably blow you away just how much negative thinking goes on in people's brains. It's horrifying how much negativing most people think of.

It is. This has been a challenge for me. It's only when I decided to do my best to avoid negativity, especially in the workplace, that I realized how much of it was there. This is brought up in the Attractor Factor, how just about every conversation is negative. And it is.

In the office, or at least mine, a big one is gossip. Nitpicking co-workers when they aren't around. And boy does it feel good. That's why people can do it for hours on end if time permits. And I was pretty damn good at it.

But I am catching myself, today I was about to say something negative about someone, but I caught myself. I couldn't see the point, so I just didn't finish what I was going to say. It felt a little awkward, like I needed a sense of completion, but I just let it go. And I had the opposite experience with this person, for the rest of the day, then I would have otherwise. Complaining about certain peeves, seems to make sure those peeves show up in your interactions. I still have to do this consciously, but I intend to do my best to just not talk trash or get caught up with negativity, the best I can.

When I first considered not gossiping, not talking about negative things at work, or the world in general, my first thought was, "then what the hell am I going to talk about? So I'm just not going to talk anymore? How boring."

Anyhow, back to the prayer talk.

[Acting Like Godot]

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

It does not surprise me. I already explained to Markus74 that this is why IM'ers will generally tend to fail at things like manifesting food for starving African children etc.

Few of us can sustain concentration (ie hold an intention) concerning something faraway and apparently not part of our own immediate lives / circumstances. Eg total strangers undergoing heart surgery.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Wrong! Badly phrased. The use of the word "complications" may well attract complications.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms ....

See?

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Wrong! Badly phrased. The use of the word "complications" may well attract complications.

Yeah, intention manifestation doesn't understand words like "not", "no", "don't" etc. So if you say "I don't want to be poor." it just hears "I want poor" that's it.

Also keep in mind that the people they selected to pray are not necessarily IM practitioners, but rather religious leaders I think, who might be following a totally different set of instructions. Prayer doesn't necessary equal IM.

[Dating Specialist]

To me praying is like having a conversation with God.

I'll thank Him in my prayer, tell Him my problems and bring my anxiety up to Him, seek for wisdom and guidance, strength and feel His love, and of course I'll pray for things as well as for people I know.

I don't pay attention to the tenses I use, but just praying with my heart. That's all!

[Kristoffer]

I googled "ask and it is given" and got 208,000 hits. "Ask and it will be given" gave 98,700 hits. I don't want to go into a discussion about the bible and what language it was written or how it has been translated, but seems like "ask and it is given" is the winner here.

[The David]

I think the difference between prayer and I-M is that prayer does not change beliefs. I can pray all day long for a hundred dollars, but unless there is a deity waiting to give it to me, it won't effect my reality. However, if I intend to attract a hundred dollars, or convince myself that it is on the way (which is hard), then maybe I'll get it then.

I-M is simply active participation in reality combined with a change of perspective, prayer is generally more of a passive request (unless you pray with extremely strong faith).

[Megan]

Lots of great insights here!

I just have a question about the book, Ask and It Is Given: I seem to remember a "Placemat Exercise," or something like that, where the example was given of Ms. Hicks writing stuff down on a paper placemat in a restaurant and then just walking off and leaving it, symbolically turning it over to the Universe.

How does that comport with the advice to ask and then work like heck to make sure things get manifested?

Didn't the Hicks manifest a motorhome with this hands-off method?

I think prayer, I-M & EFT, etc., are pretty closely related.

[ScottLee]

Let me also say this:

A lot of what has been said in response to this study is good insight, and another thing that I think of when this is staring at me is one other little thing that has been proven almost every single time scientists are testing modern medication - the placebo effect.

If the placebo effect works, so can prayer. End of story.

[Milo Riano]

It is hard or almost impossible to create metrics on prayer to measure it's effectiveness.

You know it works and that's called faith, no matter what...

[JOE]

Since writing my last post I have had more access to Gregg Braden's work and whilst I do find it spiritually uplifting and enjoyable, I do see Now that whilst his power of prayer and THOUGHT-FEELING-EMOTION method of prayer is very IM like........some of his other methods might actually be disadvantageous

Let me explain why I believe this:

Braden does advocate praying like we have already achieved the desired change or manifestation.....much like the IM practices or LOA books suggest that we do

But he also advocates something he calls the GIFT OF THE BLESSING

This 'gift of the blessing' he details thoroughly in his books and CD's and I don't want to step on any toes or breach any copyright laws by going too detailed. He advocates accepting that others urt us and our loved ones and tis allows us to reach a place of healing and None Judgement, perfect for effective prayer.

Easier than it sounds and I had a moral and emotive difficulty with this for a number of reasons because I couldn't reconcile accepting it with not condoning the hurtful action. Maybe that is just me, possibly I haven't the necessary maturity or insight to grasp what he is after but I had difficulty with this and he didn't explain HOW, just that we should do it. I had problems with this. I also thought that his gift of the Blessing technique, was similar to emotional offloading exercises in some body work therapies but my main objection is, whilst I accept that it is a beautiful technique and if used repeatedly, could alleviate blockages and emotional baggage.......it could potentially be a powerful LOA technique, which might actually bring more hardship your way

Focusing on problems with emotional content?????????????

Braden mentions how (as an example) we should focus on the middle east troubles and accept them (it is more detailed than this but I am wary of copyright infringement) and by acceptance of all parties involved, eventually we reach a state when we have gotten rid of enough emotional baggage, where we are in the perfect Non-Judgemental state to offer a prayer that might alleviate the situation ...... or any troublesome situation.

All well and good and if it works for you but for me, the middle steps involve thinking of problems and emotion being attached to them and then eventually at the end, prayers offered to alleviate the situation that if the LOA is true, you have spent the last half hour re-inforcing by accepting and dwelling upon?

That is my take on it but I am sure I have missed something. Braden's work is still impressive and I absolutely love his book the Isiah Effect. I do have some issues with his Gift of the Blessing technique for the reasons outlined above but he has been practicing these techniques for longer than I so I should give him some credit
From a PRAYER perspective, Braden's work is excellent and not preachy. He quotes Essene works, Buddhist texts and various other religions that seem to be stating the same thing about Emotion-Feeling-Thought being important in effective prayer

but from a LOA persepctive, if I understand his work correctly, then I do have some problems with his methodology......but I still advocate reading his works as they are uplifting and enjoyable and might be of comfort and use to people deeply troubled by hurt that they cannot get past. I would love to hear what other people familiar with Braden's work think of this aspect of his techniques? As I said, I love his work generally but this gift of the blessing could be a problem if the LOA is true and if we spend more time concentrating on our negative pasts, than oour potential futures

Thoughts?

[Megan]

JOE, I see your point exactly--"where attention goes, energy flows," etc., so if we focus on problems, we get more of the same.

I have expressed frustration here before with Gregg Braden for weaving pseudoscientific explanations for real phenomena, which just tends to muddy the water and discredit the whole enterprise in the world at large, it seems to me.

SkepticReport * Book Review: Gregg Braden, Awakening to Zero Point - The Collective Initiation

But I too appreciate Gregg for his spiritual insight, which I can't deny. I love The Isaiah Effect too, though I suspect he's made up some of the story around it. The spiritual insights are right on, IMO.

I think Gregg takes a global perspective of prayer. He sees Jesus as the 'Universal Reference Being,' and, as such, identifies with saving the whole cosmos, not just his own hide, which I see as a spiritual advance over just manifesting, say, a motor home. (Let's see, what shall I manifest, a motor home or world peace...thinking....)

Just to be brief: I believe that all the information in the world is contained in feeling states, and that a sufficiently proficient spiritual practitioner can heal others by working with his or her own feeling states, in a receptive place of complete acceptance.

Quantum physics tells us that everything is entangled. That doesn't mean we are not individuals, but it does mean that it is not realistic to project our "stuff" on other individuals. We're all here because it's all our stuff, collectively. All of it.

Jesus, as the 'Universal Reference Being,' took on the "stuff" of the world, and if we take him as a pattern, a reference template, we take it all on too, and transmute it in our own being, like a series of linked computers working on a problem.

It's not just a 'Christian' thing, but a universal, archetypal pattern, I think--sort of like what kahuna-trained Dr. Len does, discussed on this thread:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/p...therapist.html

If we don't take on and heal our collective past, our collective future is looking grim indeed, and manifesting motor homes, though a cool hobby, will not get us out of this mess.

I believe when individuals are radically accepting, and take 100% responsiblity for all about them, it will heal the world, in a fractal manner, over time.

[JOE]

Lovely post Megan

I agree that it would be better if we all focused on more altruistic ideals rather than motor homes etc

What would you suggest for healing our past? I have read Bruce Lipton's Biology of Belief book and in that he details what sounds an interesting technique Psych K

I will link more about it tomorrow when I have more time (in a bit of a rush at the moment)

but I am MORE interested in what you think Megan as a viable alternative or methodology for healing, that doesn't transgress the LOA problem or focus on the nergative and potentially bring us more of the same

Thankyou for a great post Megan. I have printed it off and some of the links and will look into it tomorrow more thoroughly when I have more time but if you can let me know what you mean OR rather HOW you would go about healing the traumas of the past allowing us to move on, without the problem of focusing on the past too much, then I would be most appreciative.

I do sincerely thankyou for a thought provoking post

[Megan]

JOE, thanks for your kind feedback. This was in my e-mail this morning--it is kind of our mindset, writ large:

Three Guys and a Genie

Three guys--a Canadian farmer, Osama bin Laden, and an American engineer--are walking together one day. They come across a lantern and a Genie pops out of it.

"I will give each of you one wish, which is three wishes total," says the Genie.

The Canadian says: "I am a farmer, my dad was a farmer, and my son will also farm. I want the land to be forever fertile in Canada." Pooooof! With a blink of the Genie's eye, the land in Canada was forever made fertile for farming.

Osama Bin Laden was amazed, so he said: "I want a wall around Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran so that no infidels, Jews, or Americans can EVER come into our precious land." Pooooof! Again, with the blink of the Genie's eye, there was a huge wall around those countries.

The American engineer asks, "I am very curious. Please tell me more about this wall."

The Genie explains: "Well, it's 5,000 feet high, 500 feet thick, and completely surrounds these countries. It's virtually impenetrable. Now what is your wish?"

The American engineer smiles and says: "Fill it with water."

Pooooof! Peace.

Now, my question is, if one has

a) the choice of the Genie Solution, or
b) the choice of the Radical Acceptance and 100% Responsibility For Everything in Our Lives Solution

which is more likely to perpetuate the negativity ad infinitum?

I realize that isn't beginning to answer your questions in any thoroughgoing way, but it's just meant to be suggestive of where I'm going.

And, BTW, 'spirit' started this thread, and if this tangent doesn't suit, we could take it to a new thread, of course--just want to be respectful of the desires of the thread's originator.

[Mark Lapierre]

Perhaps someone could formulate a letter to the researchers who conducted that study in order to explain the issues that have been pointed out in this thread.

[Megan]

...and be sure to bring up nara's link to Elizabeth Targ's study in Post #10 above:

Wired 10.12: A Prayer Before Dying

Notice I just 'nominated' you.

[dorothy hanna]

Possably what Braden is referring to having to do with the middle east situation, and focusing on it, and being non-judgmental, yet having emotion, is that (1). You recognize that they are having a long standing tough time of it, (2) You stay non-judgmental by staying out of it, as in not taking sides, and not getting sucked into their politics, and moral judgements of whose right, or has the right, or doesn't have a right etc... (3) the emotion you feel is love, compassion, mercifulness, etc...(4) pray for them relief, answers be revealed to them, patience, tolerance, etc...(5) Appreciate all the goodness, and love that is abundant in the world, and praise those acts of gentleness, kindness, and really let your energy flow in that direction.

Not sure, but that may be what Braden was talking about.

[Mark Lapierre]

Megan: While I'd normally be honoured to accept such a nomination, and indeed one wouldn't be necessary, in this case my lack of belief in the likely content of such a letter would dilute or even invalidate its message.

[Liara Covert]

I don't see how someone could measure the effectiveness of prayer. Faith doesn't strike me as something that non-believers could measure because they don't choose to see its potential. Believers simply know it works because they choose to see evidence of it working everyday. Books exist written by individuals who attribute self- healing from cancer and other diseases to the power of their faith. Other factors such as healthy diets influence their mindset and play a key role in their overall evolution. You can choose to believe in the power of prayer or not. Deciding you will believe in the whims of Higher Forces when death is at your doorstep isn't the same as having faith in the unknown when threats do not overshadow you. Individuals may wish to comment on why it often take a crisis for people to turn to faith and pray for mercy or better circumstances (i.e. after environmental disaster).

[JOE]

Sorry I haven't answered or contributed much but through circumstances I can't go into.....had NO opportunity to contribute lately


I will Definitely anwser all these posts as soon as I can


But Dorothy Hanna.......thanks.......that makes some sense


But it would take a better person than I, to be able to concentrate on such matters with at least some emtotional attachment...........but I take your point


sorry to be so brief for such an important and thought provoking issue