How does IM explain the Holocaust?

[pyrogen]

This comes from a (secular) Jew, by the way.

I'm not looking for a Jewish explanation of it. I'm looking for an IM explanation of it.

Do groups manifest the experience that happens to them? What role did Jews have in the Shoah?

This is the brick wall I keep hitting when I think about IM on a global scale too much.

I have no trouble coming up with ideas about this, but it's not a very popular viewpoint.

[Jesann]

Sent you a PM.

[aphorist]

It's not that hard. People at the time believed that a powerful ruler could do massive harm to the world. It's still a popular belief today (hence why the US is in such a muddle).

Everything that happens to your phyiscal body isn't IM. It's much more involved with the consequences on your mind. People born into eras of mass destruction are more likely to believe that's the norm, and accept it.

[joelr]

Yes, something along those lines. That was a rough time in Europe, war, death, monarchs, anti-semitism, these things were on peoples minds to the extent of creating a mass manifestation of all those ideas.
Keep in mind, 6 million Jewish prisoners died over approx 10 years. Right now approx 570 million people die in a 10 year period possibly due to ideas about sickness and lifespan. How many millions over 10 years due to aids?
I don't mean to make light of the holocost, just pointing out that there are often manifestations causing millions of deaths. I think it shows that if enough people focus intently on a certain negative thing it seems to cause a negative manifestation on a large scale.

All due respect to those who directly and indirectly suffered through the events of WW2. That was a horrible time for so many people. I'll pray that anyone still suffering from said events can find peace.

[dyakub]

Indeed it was very chaotic period for many people and I truly give all sympathy to anyone still effected. IM played a MAJOR part in the holocaust, and because of the large amount of people focused on negative circumstances it became a dominant vibration and by LOA the "universe" matches anything that is concentrated upon with enough emotion.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

This comes from a (secular) Jew, by the way.

I'm not looking for a Jewish explanation of it. I'm looking for an IM explanation of it.

Do groups manifest the experience that happens to them? What role did Jews have in the Shoah?

This is the brick wall I keep hitting when I think about IM on a global scale too much.

I have no trouble coming up with ideas about this, but it's not a very popular viewpoint.

I'm not keen on IM or LOA. But to answer your question, you need to go back to before the Shoah. What led up to that? Long before the holocaust the Jews were being persecuted by the germans.

Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws#German_Discrimination_Against_Jews

People defined as Jews could then be barred from employment as lawyers, doctors or journalists. Jews were prohibited from using state hospitals and could not be educated by the state past the age of 14. Public parks, libraries and beaches were closed to Jews. War memorials were to have Jewish names expunged. Even the lottery could not award winnings to Jews.

And actually, you'd have to know what the people were feeling before the persecution was going on.

But, if we look at persecution as a whole, it deals with perpetrator/victim consciousness. The Jews took the side of victim, which opened the door for a perpetrator. And as history shows it really got amplified before consciousness shifted out of victim/perp.

[artist]

You all have it the wrong way around. IM cannot explain everything that happens in the world. You all seem to think that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves due to a mass victim mentality, i.e. all they had to do was to think more positively about themselves and the world in which they lived, and the Holocaust could have been avoided.

You have to look at Germany pre ww1. Jews were prominent in all professions and the arts. Germany itself was one of the most cultured countries in the world. Jews fought on Germany's side in WW1 as proud Germans, and many rose up the military ranks, and received medals for their service. Many Jews in Germany were quite assimilated. Poland, on the other hand had been anti-semitic for a long time. Jews could not attend universities, and therefore could not enter professions. They were mostly in businesses and many had their own business, simply because some Poles would not employ Jews.

After Germany lost WW1, Germany was in huge debt and the Weimar Republic faced hyperinflation, much the same as in Zimbabwe today. People had to use wheelbarrows to hold enough money to buy a loaf of bread. Often wheelbarrows were stolen, with the worthless money left behind. There is a famous photo taken at the time of a woman stoking her oven with worthless German money.

By the time Hitler came to power, he had the solution to the problem - by making the Jews scapegoats and the cause of all German misery, he was able to offer hope to the Germans. Many jumped on his bandwagon. As Dharma said, Jews were then barred from certain professions and their rights were greatly diminished. Many Jews saw the writing on the wall and escaped, leaving their homes and businesses behind. Others saw what was happening as a terrible phase in their lives, but were optimistic that things would turn around for the better and decided to wait. Obviously, they were not able to manifest that turnaround. Those who had fought in WW1 and had been decorated as such could not believe that the Fatherland would turn against them, so to say that the Jews brought the Holocaust into reality by a victim mentality just doesn't make sense.

By the time the Nazis had swept across Europe and then after forcing Jews first into ghettos, and then concentration camps, it was impossible to escape, though many tried. The Warsaw uprising, probably the best known was a 63 day struggle which ended tragically but it shows that Jews were not simply like poor lambs led to slaughter. Remember, that people had been under-nourished, and living in squalid conditions fighting illness, hunger and torture, so they were not in peak physical condition to fight back, but many tried and failed.

To attribute the Holocaust to IM is terribly naive and just plain wrong. I don't have a better explanation as to why so many people lost their lives in such a ghastly manner, but there are some things that just can't be explained.

If you live in a city where there is a Holocaust museum, go and visit it. You will be able to meet with survivors and they will readily explain their story and stories of those who didn't make it, though unfortunately in a few years there won't be any left.

[Diandra25]

youwill find an interesting view on the subject in the book "Conversations with God 2".

HITLER appeared and did what he did....cause he was a consequence of The Universal Conscience.

In a way,human race was the one who created that Soul that led so many inocents to death:think...if there wanst anyone who would follow "Hitler",he couldnt have done what he did,coulnt he?

They followed him cause in depth,those guys were all thirst of violence,full of crap in their heads,believeing they were the maximum level human beings in the world.

Valkiria film shows that fortunatelly at some point of the Story,some Germans did woke up,but it was to late..

""Hitler was created by you. He arose out of your Collective Consciousness.... The consciousness of separation, segregation, superiority – of 'we' versus 'they,' of 'us" and 'them' – is what creates the Hitler Experience. The consciousness of Divine Brotherhood, of unity, of Oneness, of 'ours,' not just 'yours/mine,' is what creates the Christ experience." (55) " - From Conversations with God book 2

[joelr]

Originally Posted by artist

You all have it the wrong way around. IM cannot explain everything that happens in the world.

The exact way large scale tragic manifestations happen is surely difficult to fathom. It's obviously more complicated than just thinking positive thoughts. Same way evolution is more than just "evolving from monkeys".

Still if one believes in LOA, then every time a large scale event happens - Plague, Chinas genocide, WW2 Russian winter, being immeasurably tragic automatically removes that from the influence of said philosophy?

[dice]

Friedrich Nietzsche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nietzsche. One thought leads to another and you get this domino effect until, under the right conditions, it hits the dynamite.

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by joelr

The exact way large scale tragic manifestations happen is surely difficult to fathom. It's obviously more complicated than just thinking positive thoughts.

We all have to take personal responsibility for everything that touches us. There is no time in the unconscious/spiritual realm, and so those of us who were not physically alive during the Holocaust, can still affect the past. Ho'oponopono is the Hawaiian problem solving method. I love you. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. If anything I did, or my ancestors did back to the beginning of time to promote or to prolong or to allow the Holocaust, please transmute it in the light. Thank you. It is done.

I have recently gotten very excited by Dr. Bruce Lipton who I first heard about on one of these blogs a few weeks ago. His ideas put physical, cellular science to Steve Pavlina's ideas about LOA and Subjective Reality.

See what you think....

Oh, and Diandra25, I have studied the Conversations with God series too, and you seem to have a good handle on the Hitler ideas. However, the only way I can connect it to LOA, is the same way that George Bush was elected a second time. There were so many people who were so vehemently against his policy, and Kerry was so vanilla, that "energy flows where attention goes" and GB made out in the same way that Hitler did -- not because we wanted it that way, but because we couldn't turn up the light to blast away the darkness. We were mesmerized.

We are all enormously powerful and have to stay focused on the light that we choose, rather than the darkness....

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Strem2

There were so many people who were so vehemently against his policy, and Kerry was so vanilla, that "energy flows where attention goes" and GB made out in the same way that Hitler did -- not because we wanted it that way, but because we couldn't turn up the light to blast away the darkness. We were mesmerized.

We are all enormously powerful and have to stay focused on the light that we choose, rather than the darkness....

That and some of us voted for GWB because we liked him. I saw him campaign in the first election, and proudly voted for him twice in a row. He did some good stuff, and some not good stuff. Comparing him to Hitler is a little extreme in my view.

I don't consider myself as someone who "votes for darkness". Just like in this election, I believe the people who voted for Obama had their hearts in the right place, and want the best for the country, and weren't just mesmerized by all the unwarranted attention and adulation he got in the media.

I think everyone does what they think is best at the time.

[Diandra25]

yes you are right on that: im still reading the book

But from what i remember the Germans did wanted Hitler to be their God all Mighty didnt they?

So they contributed to the darkness direclty,while the others by fearing and hating Hitler,indirectly contributed for his taking of power.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Strem2

Ho'oponopono is the Hawaiian problem solving method. I love you. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. If anything I did, or my ancestors did back to the beginning of time to promote or to prolong or to allow the Holocaust, please transmute it in the light. Thank you. It is done.

I .

I have only read Vitales book on that. Good stuff but I need more research and or writings from different teachers before I can really incorporate such a heavy idea.
I'm gonna check out the scientist you mentioned.

[themaster]

This is a channeled answer.. one fo the better ones I've seen..

ANSWER: Dear one, Hitler existed to fulfill prophesy about the Jews, and to push them into a place where eventually they would have their own land. The Holocaust was every bit as horrible as history says it was, and is an example of the evil that is within every single Human Being on the planet. We have told you that "the devil and the angels in heaven all reside within each of you." You got to see it clearly with the Holocaust.

[Pyper900]

Originally Posted by themaster

This is a channeled answer.. one fo the better ones I've seen..

This type of thinking leads directly to the idea that the Jews (what a horribly discriminatory label) brought the holocaust onto themselves, and practically absolves Hitler and his Nazi officers of all culpability for their atrocities.

Hitler was a culturally polarized meglomaniac, who had no religious affiliation, outside of intelligent propaganda, whatsoever, and who simply desired power, lots of it, as fast as possible.

From his perspective, he was right, that doesn't make him evil, that makes him wrong.

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by cylon

That and some of us voted for GWB because we liked him. I saw him campaign in the first election, and proudly voted for him twice in a row. He did some good stuff, and some not good stuff. Comparing him to Hitler is a little extreme in my view.

I don't consider myself as someone who "votes for darkness". Just like in this election, I believe the people who voted for Obama had their hearts in the right place, and want the best for the country, and weren't just mesmerized by all the unwarranted attention and adulation he got in the media.

I think everyone does what they think is best at the time.

Sorry, Cylon. I didn't mean to offend.... I did not intend to say that GWB was like Hitler, only that he was getting all the energy. My intention was to say that those who didn't want him for a second 4 years gave him a lot of energy because voters were giving him more energy than they were giving Kerry.

In the same way that we have to be careful to focus on what we do want, rather than what we don't want, Democrats against GWB failed to do that in that election....

[cylon]

I guess it cuts both ways. Obama got all the attention so now it's our turn to get who we didn't want.

But I was cognizant of that. I tried to be more positive about McCain and Palin and not focus so much on the other guy.

Now I get to practice acceptance for 4 years. It helps to turn the news off.

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by joelr

I have only read Vitales book on that. Good stuff but I need more research and or writings from different teachers before I can really incorporate such a heavy idea.
I'm gonna check out the scientist you mentioned.

This is something you can try out without any problem, or any risk. There is absolutely no way to do it wrong. If you are familiar with the water crystal photography of Emoto, then it's clear that just saying/thinking "I love you" or "I'm sorry" is good for your cells to hear. How could it be bad?

And, if Steve Pavlina is right about LOA and Subjective Reality, then taking responsibility will show your unconscious that you know how the world works. This should help all your seeds to grow.

-- It's a theory. I am trying it out. Anthony Robbins says, something like, action plus results = outcome. Whether we are formally trained in science or not, we are all experimenting with life every day, are we not?

I respect your desire to dig deep, and hope that you also take some risks. Life is hardly worth living without some risks....

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by cylon

I guess it cuts both ways. Obama got all the attention so now it's our turn to get who we didn't want.

But I was cognizant of that. I tried to be more positive about McCain and Palin and not focus so much on the other guy.

Now I get to practice acceptance for 4 years. It helps to turn the news off.

That was just what I did. The media's job seems to be to drum up fear, annoyance, dissent.... -- All the emotions that don't help us at all, neither Republicans nor Democrats, nor Independents! I don't even listen to it now because it still makes me angry. This is a man, not a god, and he's been in office for what, 2 months and a couple of days.... How can so much of the comments be so very negative? -- Sorry, just a rhetorical question.

[cylon]

I was a news junkie for so many years, and all it did was make me upset. I really didn't follow the election that much, on purpose. I watched the primaries, the debates, all that stuff. And I got sucked into it towards the end and of course wish there was a different result.

But all this does is make us see that our happiness is in the hands of other people, and outside circumstances. No matter who is president, half of the U.S. is going to be upset with the decision. But I only have one life. I can't donate my life and mind to the government, they take enough on their own.

I'm not going to get into why Obama is getting so much criticism. A president can do a lot of damage in two months. But that's beside the point, the point is, it shouldn't matter, either way in our lives. Especially if we are following LOA, we should be able to live our lives independent of that stuff.

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by cylon

I was a news junkie for so many years, and all it did was make me upset. I really didn't follow the election that much, on purpose. I watched the primaries, the debates, all that stuff. And I got sucked into it towards the end and of course wish there was a different result.

But all this does is make us see that our happiness is in the hands of other people, and outside circumstances. No matter who is president, half of the U.S. is going to be upset with the decision. But I only have one life. I can't donate my life and mind to the government, they take enough on their own.

I'm not going to get into why Obama is getting so much criticism. A president can do a lot of damage in two months. But that's beside the point, the point is, it shouldn't matter, either way in our lives. Especially if we are following LOA, we should be able to live our lives independent of that stuff.

Exactly!

Both parties seem to get tired after 8 years, and run out of dynamic people, ideas and energy. (12 -- 20 hours a day for 7 days a week will cost you, no matter how exciting it is. -- Probably a big boon to the ego as well which we know isn't a help.) I am going to pose that the effect will probably be fine as long as we the people trust and hold to our philosophy.

And, what's that? That a democracy based in law isn't perfect, but it's the best system that's been devised so far.

Back to to start of this post, Hitler came into power at a time when the people were feeling fragile and fearful. They were willing to go along with "blaming" one group. That never brings positive results....

I think we need to get ready for 2012 (when the poles are going to reverse and the earth's rotation will reverse,) and we need to do it together. This is bound to cause some wear and tear on the infrastructure. Some public works projects in preparation are not out of line....

[cylon]

Dec. 21 is my birthday, and that's the day the world is supposed to end in 2012. I find that a little disturbing. That is going to be one crappy birthday present.

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by cylon

Dec. 21 is my birthday, and that's the day the world is supposed to end in 2012. I find that a little disturbing. That is going to be one crappy birthday present.

I think it will be the most dynamic, exciting, fulfilling day anyone has experienced in 5,000 years.... (Wouldn't you know that I'm a D and you're a R.) And, we've been going further and further from the center (source) of the Milky Way which, some say (Hopi and Maya) is the reason for our feeling of separateness.... After we make the turn, we will be headed back to feeling more united, more energized, and we will (in Hindu traditions) have longer healthy lives.

The Hopi talked about a day that lasted more than 24 hours, and the sun rose twice, once in the west and once in the east.... That was the last shift.... Not so bad....

What a birthday that will be!

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Pyper900

This type of thinking leads directly to the idea that the Jews (what a horribly discriminatory label) brought the holocaust onto themselves, and practically absolves Hitler and his Nazi officers of all culpability for their atrocities.

Hitler was a culturally polarized meglomaniac, who had no religious affiliation, outside of intelligent propaganda, whatsoever, and who simply desired power, lots of it, as fast as possible.

From his perspective, he was right, that doesn't make him evil, that makes him wrong.

You're thinking is way off and a bit limited..

You’re sitting on a LOA forum.. trying to say that jews and hitler didn't form their own creation?????

The truth is that no perspective is wrong.. even that of a mass murder.. that includes hitler..

By your own description you live in the action universe.. where there are rules (we created ourselves) people are responsible for their actions.. good and evil is everywhere.. and horrible atrocities occur for no reason.. and the evil doers MUST be held accountable through a court of law or at least a lynch mob.. good luck with that world.. been there

If you’re attempting to reconcile some LOA theories into this.. you have much work to go..

[Pyper900]

Originally Posted by themaster

You're thinking is way off and a bit limited..

You’re sitting on a LOA forum.. trying to say that jews and hitler didn't form their own creation?????

The truth is that no perspective is wrong.. even that of a mass murder.. that includes hitler..

By your own description you live in the action universe.. where there are rules (we created ourselves) people are responsible for their actions.. good and evil is everywhere.. and horrible atrocities occur for no reason.. and the evil doers MUST be held accountable through a court of law or at least a lynch mob.. good luck with that world.. been there

If you’re attempting to reconcile some LOA theories into this.. you have much work to go..

Did you seriously just accuse me of being way off and limited, and then agree with me?

Persecution of the Jewish culture is based on a SUPERSTITION and NOT on anything they, as a people or as individuals, did or thought.

Hitler needed a scape goat in order to further his political goals, a role for which i admit, the Jews fit nicely.

Neither position was good or evil, they were positions of circumstance and perspective, nothing more. This is the point I made before, and the point I'm making again.

Intention Manifestation played no part in World War II, nor the Holocaust. There wre far too many people involved to even consider it to have been a possibility.

Responsibility and accountability need no court, judge or jury inorder to exist and exact justice. History holds the Nazi's accountable for their attrocities, because they were wrong, horribly wrong with horrible consequences. Not necessarily because they were evil, but because in all reality, they were simply human.

[pc99]

Originally Posted by Pyper900

Intention Manifestation played no part in World War II, nor the Holocaust. There wre far too many people involved to even consider it to have been a possibility.

Does Intention Manifestation have a maximum number of people allowed? I’m not sure the exact numbers but, I do recall Lynne McTaggart having large numbers involved in her experiments (which you can read in her book The Intention Experiment or also on her website of the same name).

But, perhaps you’re talking about opposing intentions. WW2, the Holocaust would definitely have to have had many opposing thoughts. I doubt there were many intentions, but, if thoughts create I can only speculate that there were lots of scattered ones due to the climate.

However, trying to reconcile what happened depends on your current belief system.

If your belief system is millions of innocent people were persecuted and we have a group of people to blame, that’s one way to look at it. Hopefully, it will make one notice injustice from here on out and do something about it so it never happens again. However, I’m not sure how well that is working – look at what’s going on in Darfur right now.

If your belief system is like the channeled material provided from ‘themaster’ – it was like a wake up call where we all have evil & good within us.

If your belief system is you’re creating your own reality that experience is history that we needed for some reason. Meaning, it didn’t actually happen it’s just part of our past that was written for our current reality.

I’m sure there are many more belief systems.

To make a long story short – I don’t think you can immediately write off I.M. as an explanation; it may be far-fetched but, it is a possibility.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Pyper900

Persecution of the Jewish culture is based on a SUPERSTITION and NOT on anything they, as a people or as individuals, did or thought

So what your trying to say is.. that there is no pre-determination.. that prophecies and other things cast in the past never happen.. and what your really saying is 2000 or more years ago.. the jewish people never set out to engage in a persecution of themselves scenario??

Originally Posted by Pyper900

Intention Manifestation played no part in World War II, nor the Holocaust. There wre far too many people involved to even consider it to have been a possibility.

This is just ignorance.. the same ignorance.. that dozens of skeptics go on and on about how LOA can't be proven.. this is your ignorance to understanding a greater picture of how things have been working a long time..

Boy I wish I had access to your perfect knowledge of the world.. while I don't digress that if you believe this, this is true for you.. I do digress that you have given a limited statement right there.. I suggest you work on opening up a bit.. but whatever as they say at Burger King.. "have it your way"

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by pc99

To make a long story short – I don’t think you can immediately write off I.M. as an explanation; it may be far-fetched but, it is a possibility.

Given that so many (myself included) so easily fall into pessimism/expectation of worst-possible outcomes, I could see where a narrowly-localized horror could eventually infect enough minds to snowball out of control and grow to a massive scale.