Is this IM forum meant for debate?

[Wax Frog]

I am of course neither admin nor moderator, so it's not really my business, but I always got the sense from the description of this section of the board -

Manifesting intentions, law of attraction, vibrational harmony, synchronicities, luck, share your intentions, practice group manifesting

- that it presupposed the existence and consequent merit of LoA/IM and was thus placed here to promote the sharing of ideas on how one might come to understand and apply it. To put it another way, this forum seems to me aimed at those who are already convinced to some degree or fully intend to become so.

When I committed to reading here regularly, I made a deliberate choice to 'park' my inner skeptic for the duration and give it a fair go. That's not easy when I'm faced with what are, to me, out-of-place endless variants of "This is all insane BS" threads. The fact that they take on a circular form, with little of substance ever settled, only makes them worse. I'd wish that at the very least a sub-forum of some kind would be set up just for that purpose, to provide those of us disinclined to argue with an island of serenity. Just my 2 cents...

[Angela]

I recommend that folks starting any new threads in the I/M forums who would like to have a discussion based on an unquestioned supposition of the existence and effectiveness of such practices, just say so in your OP, to avoid any negativity slipping in. The moderators will work with you in keeping any off-topic posts (arguments about existence) OUT.

There is no rule against expressing an opinion that what you're trying is invalid. It's not very gracious, I don't think, but it's not against the rules. But posting off-topic IS against the rules, so feel free to distinguish the operating topic guidelines of your thread right off the bat, and as long as they're reasonable and in line with the forum rules, we moderators will do our best to keep things on-topic.

Thanks.

[Bradshaw]

I'm starting to become very accepting of the skeptics, actually.

Think about it. In a way, they are the ones who made the epic 150+ posts discussions happen, and will continue to do so in the future.

I think the people here are pretty conscious anyway. Unless the person comes from a frame of extreme anger or hate, we can debate just fine, no matter how much of a fortress mentality they have.

Besides, if the Enneagram and Myers-Briggs personality theories have any merit(i think they do), then some people are really just naturally skeptical. Should we really rule them out?

Skeptics add color to life . They challenge us and make us grow.

[Wax Frog]

Thanks, Angela!

Like I said, I'm in no way presumptious enough to think my opinion should be implemented. I just wanted to make my feelings known, as well as get clarification on how board policy applies here. If nothing else maybe my little eruption will manifest greater courtesy and calm.

I just never did like seeing entrenched immovable factions pretending at detente, in all manner of subjects, not just IM/LoA. I'm a live-and-let-live kind of guy, and always wonder what drives these sort of people to do this. What's the point?

[Angela]

I agree. They help us to hear ourselves express "out loud" and become more clear about what works and what doesn't. And we give them the opportunity to have a breakthrough for themselves, too -- they get the chance to see that they don't have to suffer because someone thinks differently than they do.

Wouldn't it be nice if people didn't have to cause themselves such pain, though, over other people's beliefs? All this head-banging and frustration. There have been people here who have banged their head against the wall of other people's beliefs for years, never noticing that if they simply shift their perspective a little, even for a moment, they could feel better.

It's like that old joke about the guy who complains to his doctor, "Doctor, doctor, I get this stabbing pain in my eye every time I drink coffee!" And the doctor replies, "Take the spoon out."

[Wax Frog]

I suppose I should be an optimist and believe that everyone is capable of change, but I fear that too often those who wind up at the bitter crank extreme go to their grave as bitter cranks (though I'm hoping that they are in for a big surprise after their non-existent souls exit their bodies).

Come to think of it, maybe this all stems from my home life. Mom is an open-minded Christian who has had many miracles (manifestations), premonitions and ghostly encounters in her life, and Dad is a laughingly scornful, 'Scientific American'-hoovering Agnostic. Not a few times Mom and I would try to watch a TV show about a "woo-woo" subject, only to have Mr. Sunshine spoil the fun by constantly interjecting his "BS! Hahahaha! BS!" remarks. I seem to have internalized this damnable dichotomy, if not literally inherited incompatible hemispheres

(and no, I'm no scholar, just a natural word-nerd)

[Angela]

Nahhhh.... I've changed dramatically in my life; haven't you?

[Wax Frog]

Certainly (though not yet favorably in some key areas, which largely drove me here). I'm mainly wondering if the Randis of the world are.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by Angela

I agree. They help us to hear ourselves express "out loud" and become more clear about what works and what doesn't. And we give them the opportunity to have a breakthrough for themselves, too -- they get the chance to see that they don't have to suffer because someone thinks differently than they do.

Indeed. I've debated on many topics on many forums over the years, and I mostly do it to educate myself. I often take breaks when I'm bored of it. I'm not interested in changing someone's mind because that rarely tends to happen by "winning" one argument, if a winner even exists.

[Wax Frog]

I have to confess, not a few times I've deleted my own posts after catching myself doing the very thing I despise, chancing the start of a new argument whose only possible outcome from my perspective is to increase my misery.

[Wax Frog]

I suppose from the IM perspective, I am manifesting IM itself as a concept that is under constant assault, as well as my fear that it eventually will fall apart like wet tissue paper under the weight. This is why I, despite not really wanting to, peer in at these debate threads often, praying that the 'pro' side will be able to fend off every volley.

Besides, again I must confess that there's not much else to read here most days

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

Disagreements truly only irritate me when I sense, rightly or wrongly, that they are *not* respectful. It's one thing to try to demonstrate that IM/LoA is full of holes, but quite another, as some have done, to call it and those interested in it foolish.

I should make a list of the opinions about me that people have expressed here. "Foolish" would look like sort of a compliment by comparison to some of these things! Remember that no one's opinion about you means anything about you.

That said, there are forum rules about communicating in as respectful manner. If you feel like someone is being disrespectful: name-calling, attacking, demeaning or offensive, please report the post, and the moderators will review it and take appropriate action.

[Wax Frog]

Thank you for saving me from having to expand on/defend my 'deleted' post

I suppose another angle on my OP is that I've reached a stage where it would be a HUGE help to me to know, to whatever degree possible, that IM/LoA is real. If it's true that belief is key, how much injury is done to my endeavor when my doubt-demons find fresh allies (and thus, out of self-defense, ignore-list entries ) in every third thread?

[Arboretor]

I share your annoyance about some of the more mindless posters, but I have to admit that I still find an occasional gem among the rants. I am afraid that without the challenges those gems would remain unsaid. So I try to suppress my anger, or rather, to disperse it in the universe.

[wellbeing]

The only "injury" these "debate" posts can do is the injury you allow, Wax Frog. You may find it helpful to view these types of posts as exercises to strengthen your belief (kind of like LoA bench presses, if you will). And, if you think you don't know how, just think of what goes on in your mind when someone tries to convince you of a reality that you KNOW is patently untrue for you. (Examples: things "fall" up, slavery is good, whatever.)

You could use one of my favorite mantras (from "The Wizard of Oz" when the Wicked Witch of the West threatens Dorothy in Munchkinland, Glinda says): "Ooo-hoo-hoo. Rubbish! You have no power here. Be gone! Before someone drops a house on you!" (Works in so many situations.)

Or, if you're really that unsure, stop reading the "debate" threads. (I often do this, not because I'm unsure, but because it feels better for me to allow others to create their realities as I go on creating my own.)

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

I suppose another angle on my OP is that I've reached a stage where it would be a HUGE help to me to know, to whatever degree possible, that IM/LoA is real. If it's true that belief is key, how much injury is done to my endeavor when my doubt-demons find fresh allies (and thus, out of self-defense, ignore-list entries ) in every third thread?

I think, then, that allowing others to express their doubts, without resisting them, is a really great opportunity for you to see yourself in the mirror!

The fact that their doubts pushes your buttons is a great thing for you, because it allows you to practice being acceptance and allowing, which I think is tremendously powerful than merely eradicating yourself of doubt. If you are really committed to taking on a belief, the doubts of others are your warrior's tool. If you have resistance or doubt, why not try practicing acceptance and allowance on them? Perhaps they are there for a reason that has a positive purpose for you. Perhaps you are willing to let them go (and maybe not). Your resistance, your irritation, is a perfect opportunity for you to look more boldly at what YOU are doing -- fuggetabout what others are up to.

Pardon me for suggesting, but I think this would be an excellent time for you to start a new thread! That is, one in which you are committing to a positive intent to accomplish power or clarity or whatever in your aims. You're ripe!

[Angela]

Ah, wellbeing, it looks like we have both been on the same yellow brick road!

[thoughtfly]

I enjoy reading what skeptics say about LOA, as well as believers. This has helped me develop my thoughts. If we all agreed I think this forum would lose a lot of its interest.

[cylon]

This is not the only forum on the web that talks about LOA. Like them, it serves two purposes: the genuine exploration and learning about LOA, and also people who saw the Secret get their worldview all twisted up so they type it into Google, find a forum that talks about it, then start taking their shots.

Originally Posted by Angela

Wouldn't it be nice if people didn't have to cause themselves such pain, though, over other people's beliefs?

Yes it would. I am trying this, I think I'm getting better at it but its taking time.

[Jesann]

You know, I don't mind skeptics or debate, but the impression I get while reading some of the threads and/or replies is that some are almost trollish. There's a difference between "How do you know these really aren't lucky coincidences? Why should I believe a post on the Internet?" and "This is garbage, you're just gullible and make me sad!" There's a "yelling" or "scolding" quality to some of the posts that makes me think there's an ulterior motive behind the surface text.

[pc99]

Originally Posted by Jesann

You know, I don't mind skeptics or debate, but the impression I get while reading some of the threads and/or replies is that some are almost trollish. There's a difference between "How do you know these really aren't lucky coincidences? Why should I believe a post on the Internet?" and "This is garbage, you're just gullible and make me sad!" There's a "yelling" or "scolding" quality to some of the posts that makes me think there's an ulterior motive behind the surface text.

I thought the same thing while reading the recent threads. It's almost a mob mentality with the new posters. And, I don't find much debate at all. How can it be a debate when one side falsifies arguments then attacks those arguments and posters?

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

When I committed to reading here regularly, I made a deliberate choice to 'park' my inner skeptic for the duration and give it a fair go. That's not easy when I'm faced with what are, to me, out-of-place endless variants of "This is all insane BS" threads. The fact that they take on a circular form, with little of substance ever settled, only makes them worse. I'd wish that at the very least a sub-forum of some kind would be set up just for that purpose, to provide those of us disinclined to argue with an island of serenity. Just my 2 cents...

Great googly-moogly, you hit it right on the nail head that time, Waxy!

But the subforum would never be used, except perhaps by ALG and a few others. Who needs the hassle unless they enjoy that sort of thing? The trolls would have no fishies. But you know, you don't have to read the static, past the first line or so.

I think a lot of the trolls are underdeveloped minds. Yes, that's a judgement but not saying they're good or bad, just not fully aware of themselves yet. A lot are very young, as well. Nothing more obnoxious than a very bright 16-year-old.

I see most of the nasties as likely being pissed off because if this manifestation stuff is true, they don't think it would work for them - so it shouldn't work for anyone else.

I was thinking about Richard Dawkins the other day (slight nausea ensued). He's making a bundle off of atheism. How is that possible, when all he needs to do is to to stand up in front of a camera and say, "There is no God. Thank you." WTF more is there to say? Almost sounds like he's started a religion...naw...

[cylon]

Originally Posted by fellowtraveler

Nothing more obnoxious than a very bright 16-year-old.

When I was sixteen I knew a hell of a lot more than I do now. I'm not sure how that happened.

[Lucid Dreamer]

Originally Posted by fellowtraveler

I was thinking about Richard Dawkins the other day (slight nausea ensued). He's making a bundle off of atheism. How is that possible, when all he needs to do is to to stand up in front of a camera and say, "There is no God. Thank you." WTF more is there to say? Almost sounds like he's started a religion...naw...

Yeah, storm in a teacup. Sounds like a familiar troll!

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by cylon

When I was sixteen I knew a hell of a lot more than I do now. I'm not sure how that happened.

Shades of Mark Twain, eh?

LOL...one of the best signs I ever saw read, "Quick, hire a teenager while they still know everything!".

[wellbeing]

I had the same feeling, Jesann, when one of the trolls showed up in a thread in which I was participating. And, in fact, I think I even posted as much at the time.

But the rant was so adolescent and the poster kept "coming for more" even after he said he was fed up with the "discussion." I really had to appreciate the silliness of the situation; it made it so much easier to detach from the trolling.

Oh, and, Angela, I'm glad to hear that you've travelled the Yellow Brick Road as well. Although I do have a feeling you're further down the Road than I am. (And--I know--it's a race <hehe> )

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Lucid Dreamer

Yeah, storm in a teacup. Sounds like a familiar troll!

Best way to handle those dudes is to agree with everything they say, in as few words as possible. You can almost hear the air wheezing out of them.

In another forum recently there was a blowhard spouting off about how the libuuurals are ruining the U.S. - went on for a couple hundred words.

My response was, "Oh, OK." Never heard from him again.

[wellbeing]

Originally Posted by fellowtraveler

Best way to handle those dudes is to agree with everything they say, in as few words as possible. You can almost hear the air wheezing out of them.

In another forum recently there was a blowhard spouting off about how the libuuurals are ruining the U.S. - went on for a couple hundred words.

My response was, "Oh, OK." Never heard from him again.

Bringing the topic back to I-M: fellowtraveler, this is also a great technique for those nagging beliefs that echo in our heads and interfere with our manifesting. (My favourite is "Oh, OK, thank you for sharing.")

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Jesann

You know, I don't mind skeptics or debate, but the impression I get while reading some of the threads and/or replies is that some are almost trollish. There's a difference between "How do you know these really aren't lucky coincidences? Why should I believe a post on the Internet?" and "This is garbage, you're just gullible and make me sad!" There's a "yelling" or "scolding" quality to some of the posts that makes me think there's an ulterior motive behind the surface text.

You said it better than I did. This was more the aim of my OP.

I'd also like to thank various posters for reminding me there's no such thing as an adolescent-brain filter

It seems that exchanging resistance for accepting what is remains a work in progress for me...