Belief vs. Circumstances

[Wax Frog]

There seems to be a consensus or near-consensus that IM/LoA is driven by belief. I am further told that it is necessary to change my beliefs in order to experience a corresponding external shift.

I've made up my mind to turn my ongoing issue with this into a full thread. By all means feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but are my beliefs not based on my observed circumstances? If so, how can I change them?

[SimonaRich]

Your beliefs can be based on your observed circumstances. But if the environment you are currently in is not satisfactory to you, then if you observe it you will get more of it. This will make you stuck in your current situation.

If you want to change that you will need to observe only things you want to see manifest in your life. Ignore things that are negative.

This way you will keep only good thoughts/images in your mind and thus you will manifest those thougths and images in your life.

But if you have strong limiting beliefs, it might prevent from your thoughts being manifested. This is because limiting beliefs are like obstacles for manifestation to reach you.

To change your beliefs you could use positive affirmations. Just repeat the opposite of what you limited belief is. If you think that only through hard work you can become abundant, you should keep repeating 'It is easy to become abundant'.

Hope that helps!

[Arboretor]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

By all means feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but are my beliefs not based on my observed circumstances? If so, how can I change them?

Perhaps it would help you to look at cases where other persons had similar problems, but held different beliefs than you, and therefore got different results? (This is a bit abstract, maybe we could give better advice if you are more specific.)

[wellbeing]

Your beliefs are what you tell yourself about your observed circumstances.

Example: Persons A and B both lose their jobs (same position, same field, same city). A is devoutly religious and (due to his particular religion) believes that he lost his job because God is punishing him. B is an atheist and so believes she lost her job because of conditions at her company. Same "observed circumstances" but A's and B's different beliefs lead them to tell themselves different things about those "observed circumstances."

These beliefs further affect what we "observe" and also can limit or open up different paths of actions in response to our observed circumstances.

[torilink]

ego sees cause and effect like this .... I see x, I think y, I believe z
creation/manifestation is ..... I believe x, I perceive y, I react and judge it (perpetuating x & y) or I allow it to be without reaction or judgment (stopping the cycle).

all judgment really hinges on belief - without belief we have no need to judge or react at all. All perception/manifestation is dependent upon beliefs, which work as a filter, letting in only what aligns with it.

What this means really is that an ego could very easily manipulate this system of belief in alignment with desire (the secret, magick?) to manifest - this means undoing certain beliefs it holds and creating new ones it desires to hold.

this is completely different than the spiritual route of allowing and nonjudgment.

[nightdiamond]

Hi Wax Frog, nice thread again....


I've got two glaring examples of L.O.A. I underlined the important parts in both examples;


This testimonial is for a book that teaches L.O.A and manifesting:

I was skeptical at first because it seemed too simple and every seminar I've ever gone to about success or even spirituality, has talked about setting goals. There were a number of things not working in my life and nothing else had worked. I decided to give the 12 Qualities method a shot. EVERYTHING in my life started to be different in just the first 30 days. THIS STUFF WORKS! YOU'VE GOT TO TRY IT NOW!"

Gerry (deleted), Real Estate Appraiser


And another testimonal, same subject, L.O.A:

"I increased my sales as a photographer since I have been taking this class. I just received an unexpected sale of $1,200 for several wedding albums for the parents of the couple, and I just received an event coverage job for $450.00. I was skeptical at first, but now I can see this system really works and works fast just like you said." Bill S.

Now here's a quote from a member of this forum from last year:

All I wanted today was one thing: To see, at some point, someone wearing a red hat to prove to myself that the LoA really works. Well, I kept a very close look out for someone with a red hat and didn't see one. This is the kind of thing that would be likely to happen anyway just by coincidence. I can't believe it. I had 100% faith that I would see someone in a red hat today. I was sure of it. What did I do wrong?

In the first two examples, the persons in the testimonials said they was skeptical at first - meaning they didn't have belief in it, or full belief in it, and yet it still worked them and in one case, 30 days no less, everything in his life changed.


In the second example, the person believed the intention was easy and said he/or she had 100% faith it would happen. And yet, unfortunetaly, it didn't work.

Why does practicing L.O.A with skeptism- which implies non-belief or a weak belief, seem to produce fantastic results, while having a strong belief and faith with enthusiam seem to produce no results for some people?

For me, and just for me, this why I chose to leave almost all of the concepts L.O.A behind and just experiment on a personal basis, not being afraid to experiment, bend the rules or discover new ones.

This not rejecting L.O.A as false, only changing to a different focus on how "manifesting" things would be possible.

I think it may give some relief to some who feel so confused about this, because it also caused me much confusion once...

But now, for me, experimenting is fun, especially feeling free of all the rigid rules and restrictions and contridictions...

[Arboretor]

Originally Posted by nightdiamond

In the first two examples, the persons in the testimonials said they was skeptical at first - meaning they didn't have belief in it, or full belief in it, and yet it still worked them and in one case, 30 days no less, everything in his life changed.

In the second example, the person believed the intention was easy and said he/or she had 100% faith it would happen. And yet, unfortunetaly, it didn't work.

Why does practicing L.O.A with skeptism- which implies non-belief or a weak belief, seem to produce fantastic results, while having a strong belief and faith with enthusiam seem to produce no results for some people?

And what is your conclusion? To me it seems like an example of 'letting go', being 'detached'. The first two persons were easily able to detach, because they were skeptical, the third person 'kept a very close look'. Maybe this was the reason?

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Arboretor

And what is your conclusion? To me it seems like an example of 'letting go', being 'detached'. The first two persons were easily able to detach, because they were skeptical, the third person 'kept a very close look'. Maybe this was the reason?

Sounds plausible to me. After all, there is a part of me that is metaphorically down on it's knees, wailing, "please oh please let this be real!" Definitely the antithesis of detachment.
Ironic, that the main thing that drives my interest in IM/LoA might also be what's blocking it.

I've been focusing like a mad fiend on a simple symbol for the past week and a half, in a sense trying to brute-force a manifestation. Maybe I should let it go for a bit and see what happens...

[torilink]

Originally Posted by nightdiamond

To see, at some point, someone wearing a red hat to prove to myself that the LoA really works.

ok, first off - if you have 100% faith, then you don't need proof. Obviously if someone is asking for proof, they have insufficient belief to start with.

secondly, for the "testimonials", well they are trying to sell a product so I cannot know if these are actual cases or not. Let's assume that they are though.

Originally Posted by nightdiamond

I was skeptical at first because it seemed too simple and every seminar I've ever gone to about success or even spirituality, has talked about setting goals. There were a number of things not working in my life and nothing else had worked. I decided to give the 12 Qualities method a shot. EVERYTHING in my life started to be different in just the first 30 days.

Originally Posted by nightdiamond

I was skeptical at first, but now I can see

Being "skeptical" doesn't mean you hold a limiting belief about this subject, it merely means you are not 100% certain, maybe wary or questioning the validity. Obviously they must have been willing to give it the benefit of doubt and invest $$ into the program - so it isn't extraordinary they would have results.

[marinik]

Wax I adore you as you know.. and will not say anything new to my dismay ... but I need to add to this discussion the "arrant operational truth" I am trying to live by...

Our beliefs influence the way we interpret the circumstances. The same set of facts we see as good or bad or neutral depending what set of values we assign to them - the story we tell. And it is a cycle, from past experiences we derive the story for the new circumstances and give affirmation to our beliefs that then uphold for the new set of facts....and so on...

In short there are only facts all of the rest is in our head.

My biggest dilemma is what if I switch my beliefs to a different set, what happens to the way people around me see the "reality of the circumstances"? Not that it matters to me what other people think but I can't see it as a real shift if I start seeing a defeat as a victory or a lesson if my surroundings still see it as a lost battle and it has repercussions on my reality. Or am I totally of to my story - my thread in my head?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by marinik

My biggest dilemma is what if I switch my beliefs to a different set, what happens to the way people around me see the "reality of the circumstances"? Not that it matters to me what other people think but I can't see it as a real shift if I start seeing a defeat as a victory or a lesson if my surroundings still see it as a lost battle and it has repercussions on my reality.

1. Yours could be a false dilemma, in the sense that whether you seek to switch your beliefs to a different set or not (and regardless of what your current beliefs may be), there are already people who do not agree with you. (At least that's so, in my reality. Everyone seems to have an opinion around here ).

2. Remember that everyone in your reality was attracted by you. Diversity among them merely reflects the numerous different levels & nuances in your consciousness. As your beliefs change, so too will the people in your reality. Some will disappear; some will behave differently; some will gain or lose significance in your reality; new people will emerge.

[nightdiamond]

Hi torilink, thanks for making some really good points, which are true and can't be ignored.



Usually when someone is skeptical of something and have had prior disappointments, they usually want at least some proof either before they try a new similar idea, or at least while they're trying it.

For example, in one of the examples, the person claims he tried a number of things in the past, but they did not work. Did he feel the same skepticism in the beginning with each failure from those previous methods ?

If he felt skepticism at first as he tried the new method, did he want proof as he tried it?

However this time, even with skepticism, he claims to have gotten results, and fast. What did he do or feel this time that was different from the previous times?


Being willing to try something, even if you have insufficient belief or want proof, is an example of giving something the benefit of the doubt.



For example, to compare, in the board member's case, he/ or she said that wanted to prove to himself that L.O.A works- and then proceeded to practice it and look for a red hat.

Although wanting proof may mean insufficient belief, on the other hand, going ahead and putting it into practice anyway and watching for a red hat suggests giving it the benefit of the doubt too.

From Working the Law of Attraction ;


The law of attraction rewards a playful spirit. You can't really go into it with skepticism, thinking that it's not going to work. Again, if you're focusing on that this is going to be a big failure and a waste of time, then that's what you're going to get.

If the first person was skeptical or wary at first, that meant he might not have been 100% certain it would work, because he was skeptical - but tried it anyway and it worked as he claimed.

If the second person claims he had 100% faith, but wanted proof L.O.A works, then it meant he never had 100% certainty either- because he needed proof - but he also tried it anyway, said he was certain it would happen, but it did not work as planned in that case.

What could be the connection?

And what is your conclusion? To me it seems like an example of 'letting go', being 'detached'. The first two persons were easily able to detach, because they were skeptical, the third person 'kept a very close look'. Maybe this was the reason?

Hi Aboretor, I'll use some quotes from various L.O.A articles and lecturers to illustrate the various ideas about L.OA.



On the subtopic of watching closely for signs and attachment :

[QUOTE]

Article from The Universal Law of ATTRACTION

..... In the same way, there is a time to watch expectantly for a developing thought form to manifest in physical form. Knowing that you have created a clear and complete image, you watch for the signs that your desired object is coming to fruition.

The Law of Attraction operates even when you do not know exactly how you will fulfill a desire. It ensures that you will be in the right place at the right time for things to “click” into place.


Second Article:

....One way to prove to the Universe that you really are open to receive and that you really do believe that the Law of Attraction works for you in a positive direction is to verbalize and to write this POWERFUL affirmation, My bank account is filling up 100 times faster than I can spend it.

If you do this you will set the energy of the Universe in motion to attract money to you! You will find yourself coming into money. Watch for it. Expect it. You’ll attract it.


Third Article:

Watch the Universe for Signs

One of the teachings of the Masters of Law of Attraction is to look for signs from the Universe.......

On the subtopic of desire and wanting something badly; (attachment versus detachment)


One quote:

Use of Desire in the Law of Attraction - Law of Attraction Classics: WW Atkinson


To succeed in anything you must want it very much - Desire must be in evidence in order to attract. The man of weak desires attracts very little to himself. The stronger the Desire the greater the force set into motion.

You must want a thing hard enough before you can get it. You must want it more than you do the things around you, and you must be prepared to pay the price for it. The price is the throwing overboard of certain lesser desires that stand in the way of the accomplishment of the greater one.

Another Article;

Ever Feel Like Escaping the Zoo?
......You must want something badly enough to attract it. If you think it will never happen, then you are absolutely right, as mentioned in the video, the universe will answer you with "Your Wish is My Command" if you think positive thoughts.

Another quote

From White Dove Books

Were you ever told "in order to get something, you must want it....want it badly" ?. However what you were told is completely backwards.

The truth is "what you want = you do not have".

The important thing to remember is never how badly you want something. It is exactly how quickly you can identify and maybe decide to shift your attitude.

The longer you keep a thought of want (or lack) the longer you will experience lack.

With so many differing ideas about how to go about L.O.A, this what so many people curious about this have to wade through....


Nice discussion everybody...

[marinik]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

1. Yours could be a false dilemma, in the sense that whether you seek to switch your beliefs to a different set or not (and regardless of what your current beliefs may be), there are already people who do not agree with you. (At least that's so, in my reality. Everyone seems to have an opinion around here ).

2. Remember that everyone in your reality was attracted by you. Diversity among them merely reflects the numerous different levels & nuances in your consciousness. As your beliefs change, so too will the people in your reality. Some will disappear; some will behave differently; some will gain or lose significance in your reality; new people will emerge.

Yes

and

Yes

I needed this today!

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

I am further told that it is necessary to change my beliefs in order to experience a corresponding external shift

Until you realise you are watching your own creation.....

There is not much you can do.

Judge

[moonrambler]

My first real introduction to the ideas of LoA was the blue feather experiment in Illusions, and he says that he watched for the blue feather all day long.

About the red hat experiment, what I see as different about that is, the person threw this red hat experiment out there as trying to prove the LoA, and it was significant to me that there was no red hat to be found even though it was very likely, as he or she said, to see one just in the course of the day.

Didn't this person go into a complete meltdown over the absence of a red hat and wind up getting banned from the forum?

[wellbeing]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

Didn't this person go into a complete meltdown over the absence of a red hat and wind up getting banned from the forum?

I had forgotten about that <lol> ; good memory, Moonrambler.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by nightdiamond

Hi torilink, thanks for making some really good points, which are true and can't be ignored.



Usually when someone is skeptical of something and have had prior disappointments, they usually want at least some proof either before they try a new similar idea, or at least while they're trying it.

For example, in one of the examples, the person claims he tried a number of things in the past, but they did not work. Did he feel the same skepticism in the beginning with each failure from those previous methods ?

If he felt skepticism at first as he tried the new method, did he want proof as he tried it?

However this time, even with skepticism, he claims to have gotten results, and fast. What did he do or feel this time that was different from the previous times?


Being willing to try something, even if you have insufficient belief or want proof, is an example of giving something the benefit of the doubt.



For example, to compare, in the board member's case, he/ or she said that wanted to prove to himself that L.O.A works- and then proceeded to practice it and look for a red hat.

Although wanting proof may mean insufficient belief, on the other hand, going ahead and putting it into practice anyway and watching for a red hat suggests giving it the benefit of the doubt too.







If the first person was skeptical or wary at first, that meant he might not have been 100% certain it would work, because he was skeptical - but tried it anyway and it worked as he claimed.

If the second person claims he had 100% faith, but wanted proof L.O.A works, then it meant he never had 100% certainty either- because he needed proof - but he also tried it anyway, said he was certain it would happen, but it did not work as planned in that case.

What could be the connection?

belief filters perception. belief filters perception. we can only see, hear, taste, smell, and feel what we perceive...... through our filters. every desire is manifest in the unperceived realm (void) we don't have to create anything... we just need to journey inward and work through what we believe to start changing the filter.

I can only speculate about a post made by another person I don't know and haven't even read myself except here on this thread? - how should I know what they truly believe or don't? its a fools errand.

I hold subconscious beliefs I'm not even aware of myself until a situation arises which brings it into my conscious awareness.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by Judge

Until you realise you are watching your own creation.....

There is not much you can do.

Ah, but are you referring to Big Me or little me?

...

Whatever happens, at least I know there won't be any red-hat meltdowns from my corner...

[moonrambler]

At 7:43 I get this:

Not Found

The requested URL /module/index.php was not found on this server.
Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat) Server at bw.eminetwork.com Port 80

[cylon]

Was that some 'random' thing or were you searching for red hats?

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by cylon

Was that some 'random' thing or were you searching for red hats?

That was some random thing -- I was searching for government regulations on cable tv. It really gave me a double-take since not only was it a red hat, it was a red hat not found!

[Wax Frog]

Oh, mighty Red Hat, please appear to me spontaneously (in any form other than the Devo thing below) in the next 15 minutes

[cylon]

Love it.

Gee that probably had absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion of red hats.

[Wax Frog]

OK, that was cute. I'm tracking the Ravens/Steelers game online (hate Steelers, don't have stomach to watch), and seeing that the Ravens offense kept getting bogged down in the middle of the field, I had the song "Stuck in the Middle" come to mind. There are two funny parts to this.

1) I never knew the name of the band that did the song. "Stealers Wheel". Stealers/Steelers!!!

2) I didn't know there was a video done for the song. There is a woman in it wearing a black hat with a large red band/decoration.

Haha, very funny Uni!!!! (I hate the fact that an "action" was involved on my part, but I won't quibble)

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

There seems to be a consensus or near-consensus that IM/LoA is driven by belief. I am further told that it is necessary to change my beliefs in order to experience a corresponding external shift.

I've made up my mind to turn my ongoing issue with this into a full thread. By all means feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but are my beliefs not based on my observed circumstances? If so, how can I change them?

I almost think it's not to change beliefs but to let go of trying to believe a certain thing that makes shifts. Observed circumstances are reflections of you and then all the beliefs crop up to filter and judge and categorize and ego-ize what all that "external" stuff is. Any belief is a judgment and separating function of the mind, perhaps. The best belief to go for is that beliefs get in our way of clear and unbiased perception. If we can get that kind of perception, we don't need to try to belief anything, we just know. And then all the wanting and desiring and using LOA is purely witnessed. I don't think if that brings any more personal power over reality, per se. But it would bring peace and ease and acceptance and surrender and joy and wonder and better life attitude, imho.

[Wax Frog]

A question I asked in another thread got lost in the maelstrom of debate, so I'm reposting it here:

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I think that everyone should be able to do it - if they also practised. I think that in these forums, many people talk about the LOA, but they do not really consciously use it, or if they do, they are haphazard and irregular about it. So they do not get better. That is all.

So technique is less important than diligence and consistency?

[Wax Frog]

Perhaps my notion could be better phrased, "the technique itself is generally unimportant; diligence and consistency in applying the chosen technique is what matters."

[Arboretor]

You may be right. I have experienced the most astonishing manifestations when I did not follow any specific technique at all. (For example, sitting in the tram, thinking 'wouldn't it be nice if...' and making a Wish - and wham, it happened in the most surprising way only minutes later).

Perhaps the key is simply to be in a certain state of mind - gratefulness and TRUST - trust that your wish will come true, AND trust that you will be happy even if it does NOT come true.

At least this is how I think of it in the moment.

[Wax Frog]

Sounds good. As I've said before, I have a bad habit of taking a white-knuckle-grip approach to things.

[wellbeing]

Out of curiosity, Wax Frog, and in light of this thread's discussions, which (if any) beliefs you currently hold will you be changing? Have you given any thoughts about how you will go about changing those beliefs?