Keep your ideas and thoughts to yourself :)

[Bene]

You don't have to debate what you believe. You don't have to prove to the world that something is right or is working for you or is resonating with you. If its true for you... its true for you.

In doing so alot of times we (atleast me) end up frustrated in trying to explain or proove something. I have given it up. I know that my life is my responsibility and everything else is not.

Just my 2 cents... it might help someone out.

[The Probabilist]

I agree with you partly. Proof is over rated in my book. I simply choose to follow a belief and mind-set that works for me and is congruent + resonates with my objectives in life. There's plenty of people around who want to share their views of what is right for them so all I have to do is read and listen to their thoughts with an open mind and choose to test things out for myself - to achieve results that make sense in a subjective reality.

So I don't want people to keep their ideas and thoughts to themselves. Otherwise I restrict myself from learning from characters in my reality that want to reach out and make a difference. By personally engaging in this process I can gradually eliminate the advice that doesn't serve my purpose because I can respond: "Been there, done that." - and move forward.

[dorothy hanna]

I agree with you both. I understand the frustration of dealing with arguerers, especially when much of the ideas have been pretty much explained, and many times they don't simply state their disagreement with an idea, they ask the same exact question, as if it's a new topic to discuss and argue again.
I pretty much by-pass these, and am drawn more to those who are genuinely wanting to compare notes, and ask questions, and are looking for tips that they can try out. An actual exchange of ideas.
So, I wouldn't want anyone to keep their opinions to themselves, as I can just not "take the bate", anymore.

Many of the arguers are good people, and this is just one aspect of a whole package. It's just their style, right now, and arguing serves them, they think anyway, somehow.
When they are ready, they will develope a greater variety of styles, and approaches to a subject. It's all in the process of self-developement. And that's a good thing.

[Maxwell]

I find that notion ridiculous and cult like in nature.

[knave]

Originally Posted by Maxwell

I find that notion ridiculous and cult like in nature.

Great. Why are you still here?

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Maxwell

I find that notion ridiculous and cult like in nature.

How would you deal with a problem where the same questions are repeatedly asked over and over by people who aren't interested in hearing the answer, but simply want to create doubt amongst other readers?

I'll answer questions a few times, but if I feel people are too lazy to read the answers and respond and instead just ask the exact same question a few days later over and over again, I'm not going to waste my time responding. I don't think that's rediculous or cult-like, do you?

[Eternal Wayfarer]

I agree with what you, the probilist, impaul99 and dorothy hanna wrote. I nearly did this topic but, thank you.

However, I am not frustrated over it. Frustration comes along when I want to prove an issue, but thing is, what is there to prove; so I just share, and sometimes, others just don't get it. I am just sharing, not forcing anything I wrote into the other party mouth, it would be disrespectful of me to do that.

Then you get spit in the face, when they don't like the taste; they can always not continue eating.

Then there are those who comes along and decide to show you a way which they think is better, when you didn't even ask for their help.

Well, what a wonderful world, as it is.

Hold on, maxwell has a point too...

[Maxwell]

Originally Posted by knave

Great. Why are you still here?

I am here for intelligent discussion. This thread supports putting an end to some discussion. I don't find the idea of I-M cult like, I find avoiding all discussion criticising it very cult like. I desire to learn more about I-M and for some firm believers to convince me why it works, how it is not dangerous, and how one can avoid the many contradictions it appears to make in my mind. I might be absolutely wrong about what I think. If I don't discuss it, how will I ever correct my way of thinking?

One would think you users of IM would be ecstatic about discussing the criticisms if they didn't have some reason not to. Intelligent discussion would lead to more people, like myself, using it. Why wouldn't that thrill users of I-M? Why not try to educate them and tell them exactly how they are wrong?

Paul, it may seem repatative to you, but I just joined here, just watched the secret, and just learned about I-M. You don't have to respond to my posts or anyone else's who posts critically of I-M. They have a right to post here just the same as you. So you can ignore them if you like but trying to silence them is ridiculous. Why not just INTEND for all the critics to be silent, since that's what you do?

[The Probabilist]

Originally Posted by Eternal Wayfarer

Then there are those who comes along and decide to show you a way which they think is better, when you didn't even ask for their help.

The reasons I did this were A) I want others to behave in this way towards me. Since I want to manifest people into my life that show me how to make things better, I have to send this equal vibration out to the Universe. I do unto others as I would have them do unto me. B) I mistakenly assumed that you behave in an equal manner and share the view that any form of opinions toward your work is welcome. I apologize for not reading the P.S. in your first post with greater care.

The reasons I didn't continue posting under the topic were A) You gave the impression that you're in the consciousness level of pride (felt an attack toward your work and toward yourself), so I decided to explain myself and leave it at that. (That there is no attack to begin with unless the mind perceives that there is one.) Your further entries show that you are not in this level, btw. B) My comments were sidetracking the whole topic and I wanted to respect your purpose for starting the thread, although I had trouble identifying what it was.

If there is still something unclear about my behaviour, I suggest reading how I view that understanding is to transfered in a productive way. The view works on proven issues like scholastic education, but it is undoubtedly subject to controversy when discussing matters that lack proof.

[Steve Pavlina]

I find it useful to debate and discuss interesting and/or controversial ideas, not because I care to convince people I'm right but because I'm open to being convinced by them that I'm wrong. By taking a stand on an issue or playing devil's advocate with an idea, I develop a much deeper understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of that perspective.

I think debate and discussion is an extremely useful tool for personal growth. There have been many occasions where a debate with another person led me to reconsider my own perspective. I wish I had the time to do it more often.

Personally I love it when people disagree with me and are willing to intelligently share why they believe what they do, especially if their beliefs seem to be helping them generate positive results in some area. If I suspect that another person's beliefs are more empowering than mine, I become really curious as to what the differences are.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Bene

You don't have to debate what you believe. You don't have to prove to the world that something is right or is working for you or is resonating with you. If its true for you... its true for you.

In doing so alot of times we (atleast me) end up frustrated in trying to explain or proove something. I have given it up. I know that my life is my responsibility and everything else is not.

Just my 2 cents... it might help someone out.

I concur, Bene.

(The following is not addressed to Bene alone, but to everyone in general)

Short version:
(If you don't like reading, the short version is for you.)

Overall, I think it's important to take note that people will believe what they want to believe based on the experiences they've had, regardless of what other people tell them or how ridiculous their beliefs may seem from the outside looking in (ie. other people looking at an someone elses opinions/beliefs/interpretations/experiences through their eyes). You may not agree with someone's subjective interpretation of an experience, but I think you'll find that there is little you can do about that. You can try to inform someone as to why you think their interpretation was inaccurate (based on your experiences and beliefs), but understand that even if you succeed, it was the individual contrasting your information with their experiences and helping them to interpret their experience from a different perspective, not them thinking that the information you present is accurate. Without their experience(s), your information would be somewhat meaningless, or at the very least, not all that interesting or relevant to them.

It’s perfectly fine to express your opinion and tell someone that you either agree or disagree with them. But when you start getting invested in your beliefs/experiences to the extent where you feel you must defend them as if you are unable to live without them, or you feel that you must prove the accuracy of your opinions/beliefs/interpretations/experiences in contrast to the opinions/beliefs/interpretations/experiences of another, that’s when discussion degenerates from a healthy exchange of opinions and viewpoints/perspectives, into a battle of “truth” where the benefits of participating in such a discussion start to drop off and the undesirable negative side effects (frustration, anger, stress, doubt, etc.) start to increase. What would you rather have -- something you can learn from or use to improve yourself in some way, or something that makes you feel frustration, anger, stress, or doubt?

Long version:
(You’re not giving up reading just yet, are you? Only 926 words to go -- you can do it!)

Try to understand that it’s perfectly fine to have a differing opinion/belief/interpretation/experience to another -- that's what makes each of us unique, interesting individuals. If, after you have that understanding, all that’s required to participate in a constructive conversation or debate is a sense of detachment and the understanding that people are going to put more faith in their own experiences, regardless of what you or anyone else tells them.

If, on the other hand, you lack those things, you'll find that the discussions you participate in often loop around and never really get anywhere, and all you end up doing is going in a mental circle, wasting your time, and as Steve would say, "spinning your wheels" for no good reason at all. If you find yourself doing this, ask yourself what you are getting out of these discussions. Honestly take a moment to think about it.

Are you getting any good, actionable ideas or information that you can use to make improvements?

Are giving other people any good, actionable ideas or information that they can use to make improvements?

If you answer "no" to either or both of those questions, I would suggest you seriously reconsider the time investment you make in certain disucssions. If you knew you were going to die tomorrow, would you waste time arguing with other people, or would you go out and make the best of the time you have remaining and enjoy yourself? Even if you're not dying, doesn't it make sense to do that anyway, or would you rather have the words, "Here lies <insert your name here>. He/she never accomplished anything because all he/she did was argue with people and try to prove to them that they were wrong" inscribed on your tombstone?

When reading/hearing about the opinions/beliefs/interpretations/experiences of other people, you are often dealing with incomplete information. You often don’t have the whole story that gives context and meaning to what the individual has to say, and trying to debate whether or not what someone says is accurate or not is largely a waste of time when you are missing a crucial point of information. For example, if I tell you that the sky is below me and the ground above me, you’d probably think that I’m either A) crazy, or B) wrong. But if that is the only thing I tell you, you aren’t working with very much information. For all you know, I could be standing on my hands and viewing things upside down, and from that perspective, what I said at the time would be right. Sure, I may be standing on my head, but that doesn't make me wrong, does it? My statement may be more accurate if I presented more information, but if you use that as an excuse to try to disprove my statement, all you are doing is moving closer to a tombstone inscribed with the words, "Here lies <insert your name here>. He/she never accomplished anything because all he/she did was argue with people and try to prove to them that they were wrong"

This is the very nature of perspective, and rather then trying to tell me off or say that I’m wrong when I make such a statement, if you are really interested in learning something and understanding why I’ve said what I have, take the time to intelligently investigate what I’ve said with an open mind, not quite investing 100% belief into what I’m saying, but at the same time, being open to the possibility that there may be some truth to what I say, even if you can’t see how that may be possible. Ask me questions instead of telling me that I’m crazy and/or wrong. The former helps you and anyone else who may be reading to understand what I’ve said; the latter fuels your ego and reinforces your perspective as if it’s the only, or one of the only perspectives that there is. If you believe your perspective is the "one and only", well, good luck to you -- I hope your tombstone inscription doesn't prove to be too expensive for you.

Finally, I’d like to add that if you find yourself shaking your head in disagreement or frustration with what I’ve said -- good! You have every right to. But don’t feel obligated to reply to what I’ve said and “prove” to me that I’m wrong and tell me my opinions/beliefs/interpretations/experiences are inaccurate based on your opinions/beliefs/interpretations/experiences, because you’d be missing the point of perspective and interpretation entirely. If you’d like to constructively point out what you think may be a flaw in my logic, please feel free to -- I'd love to have the opportunity to improve myself if I find that your observation is in fact correct. But don’t do such a thing thinking that you must prove something to me or anyone else, do it because you genuinely want to help me or someone else. If you feel you need to defend your opinions/beliefs/interpretations/experiences, ask yourself:

Why am I doing this?

Would I be better off doing something more constructive?

Could I be making better use of your time instead of typing out comments that are unlikely going to help anyone progress or improve and could even end up making people feel frustrated, angry, stressed, doubtful, etc?

Do I want my tombstone to say "Here lies <insert your name here>. He/she never accomplished anything because all he/she did was argue with people and try to prove to them that they were wrong"?

Think about it.

[Bene]

cool.. nice replies.

I would like to add some more comments. I think that certain topics like spirituality and in this case intention-manifestation cannot be proved just because it isn't "science". Often people get worked up and tied up in trying to proove that they are right using examples and logic. Matters like these IMO are out of the sphere of logical discussion. Each person's experience is his or her own. And this again goes in loops... I have seen this alot.

Agreed with the above... getting invested in the discussion beyond the point of expressing your view AND going to defend it is where the problem is.

The problem with me personally is that I don't even like to read everything that someone has written because I don't feel good about it when their belief is directly in contradiction with mine. I just skim over the message and move on. If its interesting... I read it in detail.

I am all for new ideas... like someone said: using new ideas that appeal to me and throwing out old beliefs that I have no use for anymore... and thats where growth lies. I think that is fantastic!

[JHL]

I think debate and discussion is an extremely useful tool for personal growth.

I wholly concur with this perspective, it goes without saying that there is clearly huge value in this approach.

Having said that, I have often found discussions annoying and thought "sod this!". However this in itself raises another area ripe for PD work. Instead of being blinded by the feeling, if I bring some introspection to bear on what I'm feeling and why I'm feeling this way it produces some interesting answers.

For eg - I'm irritated because this person isnt seeing my point of view. He/she is being stubborn, obstructive, and (I sometimes suspect) purposefully ignorant and combatant. If I'm really on top of my awareness game, it will then occur to me that my thoughts about the person say more about me than them.

I then start to think about my own true intentions for entering the debate and if I'm REALLY honest with myself, it turns out that I'm there to win first, and learn second. When I find that I dont win, I begin to project all sorts of negative characteristics onto the person. The PD growth opportunity therefore, is to see my own dark side (in all its glory) and to take ownership of it. And then to try do better the next time.

So while I dont always learn anything new about the subject matter, I almost always learn something of myself.

So I'm suggesting that for anyone who feels annoyance or defensiveness about their position on IM or anything else - that the feeling is a signal that a PD opportunity has just arisen and some introspective work may prove useful.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I find it useful to debate and discuss interesting and/or controversial ideas, not because I care to convince people I'm right but because I'm open to being convinced by them that I'm wrong.

Haha, you must be a member of the NTJ family in MBTI. Like me.

[Lucas]

Theres a difference between debate and trolling, the former is healthy, the latter is ignorable with a single setting. I havent really seen any trolling on the forums yet...spamming, maybe a little

[LivingWarrior]

In response to the original post

One time I heard a story about keeping your plans a secret. Wish I could source it and recall more of the story, but what I took from it was this.

"Why would you dig up your seedling just to make sure it has taken root?"

I feel myself doing this often, when I revisit or worry about my intentions. Fear and doubt creep in, and then I am sending mixed signals to my subconscious.

I think we have to develop a feeling of ease and Trust in the process. If you believe that LoA/M is truly a LAW, then you can let go, knowing that once you've sown, so shall you reap. In fact, it might be good to investigate where fear and doubt creep in, because these are the mechanisms which are keeping you from manifesting.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Maxwell

Paul, it may seem repatative to you, but I just joined here, just watched the secret, and just learned about I-M. You don't have to respond to my posts or anyone else's who posts critically of I-M. They have a right to post here just the same as you. So you can ignore them if you like but trying to silence them is ridiculous. Why not just INTEND for all the critics to be silent, since that's what you do?

I wasn't referring to people who are new to IM that are confused or not convinced and want to ask questions so that they can understand better. I have no problem with that and spend a lot of my personal time replying and answering questions.

I was more referring to the people who already decided that IM doesn't work, and aren't interested in being shown anything that would conflict with that. There just doesn't seem to be any reason to continue responding to them after you've already answered their questions a few dozen times.

I also never said to "try to silence them". I must have not been clear with what I was saying.