My Response to "The Secret"

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

I have difficulty accepting your analogy as it's stated because I can't conceive of how a being with the power to divide itself, limit the awareness of those divided entities, yet still share the awareness of all of those entities, is not able to divide its attention between multiple screens.

I also think it's misleading to compare ourselves to the source entity. As long as a similarity between humans and God is even implied, I've no doubt that people will resist accepting the idea of God as much more than human. A God that is all that is, and a God with two eyes, are irreconcilable in my opinion.

I would more readily accept the analogy if the source entity could view all the screens at once, but decided that full sensory experience would be the more rewarding option. But that still leaves the question of why? Why would an omnipotent being have any need or desire to observe and express himself?

Stop being such a literalist. The "two-eyes" analogy is a metaphor for an obstacle that God needed to solve. And this is merely a theory of mine; I don't for a second mean to infer that this is fact. That would be ridiculous, of course.

The infinite number of screens is also a metaphor for PHYSICAL BEINGS; a "full sensory experience" is kinda a given. God dividing himself into infinite duplicates is how he solves the problem of not being able to live out infinite physical lifetimes all at once in his original, singular state (again, just theory). As you yourself put it, the full sensory experience is preferable, and clearly more efficient. God, being a non-physical Spirit, MUST divide himself infinitely in order to do this. Being omnipotent, he can and does. Even God cannot snap his ethereal fingers and declare to have knowledge of experiences that have yet to occur, so I simply offer a theory about how perhaps the process took place.

Perhaps God conjured physical matter not out of nothingness, but out of itself. Perhaps we, and everything in existence, are part of God, but also have our own real physical existence. Perhaps reality isn't purely subjective, or purely objective, but a combination of both.

It's simply not possible. Even for God. One cannot create SOMETHING from absolute NOTHING. Assuming in this theory -- and not all that different from how Genesis reads -- In the beginning...." there was God and nothing else. No Universe, no stars nor galaxies nor dark or light matter. Nothing at all physical. Just this thought-energy clump of self-awareness all alone, surrounded by an infinite void of absolute nothingness.

Assuming this self-awareness is the "God" we all refer to, and that said God has grown to the point that he is aware of his power to create, he still has to work with some basic building blocks. Since He, Himself is all there is to work with, then it's logical that everything from that point on that God creates is comprised of whatever it is that God was orginally comprised of -- most likely thought and energy vibrations.

Since quantum physics shows us that all matter when broken down to its basic building blocks is truly ENERGY, it becomes logical to assume that God made the physical universe out of the thought-mind-energy that was Himself, and, basically, all there really was to work with.

~ RS

[cylon]

Part of me wonders, if it's possible that things just ARE. Like, is it possilbe that all the things discussed on this forum, IM, subjective reality, everything is connected, we are all the Universe, if somehow that is reality, yet there is no purpose behind it. Why does there have to be a purpose? When I think of how vast the universe is, it absolutely makes me want to be open-minded, but I can't help but think that we are putting our own views of what it means to be human, on what we would call God, like God wants to experience himself, so he came up with this idea to create the Big Bang, which he knew would lead to Earth, which would lead to Evolution, which would lead to humans, which would lead to conscious thought, which would lead to him being aware of "himself", when "he" has always been aware of "himself" to begin with. This is the same understanding of God... that has always been around, we are just saying it in a different way.

I think of the tao, and how it says to just go with it, be in the present moment, and not worry too much about what "It" is, the tao says it is beyond names or beyond real understanding, but that it just IS, that it's even older than "God". It seems like it's important for humans to have a linear story that makes sense. The effect we see now is the result of a cause that was put into place zillions of years ago.

Is it possilbe that things are the way they are, just because they are, and we can't even begin to comprehend the true nature of reality, because we are the true nature of reality, and it's impossible to stand outside of ourselves and be objective because objectivity is just a creation of subjectivity?

Not sure if I'm making any sense here.

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by thef0x

This is ridiculous in my mind.

The idea (IDEALISM) of consciousness that YOU create in YOUR head is what you're bringing upon reality, calling it God and vibrations.

Surely, even as a simple human being, you yourself have experience several different levels of consciousness/self-awareness.

When you are asleep and dreaming, you still have consciousness. It's just not the same as what you experience when awake and moving around.

How would you feel if you were, say, in a coma, and some advanced species came along and saw you lying there, doing nothing, and declared you were no more conscious than the bed you were lying in. Your consciousness might be dormant for the moment, but it still exists nonetheless. Who are you to say that your roommate's guitar does not experience a very limited, dormant form of consciousness.

A couple of hundred years ago, most people thought that the idea that man could fly through the air was ridiculous; let alone set foot on the moon. What you perceive as ridiculous may well just be an idea that the world hasn't caught up with yet.

Logic is a wonderful tool with which to explore the universe. But it is not the only one.

As for leading a delusional life... I believe most people search for meaning and purpose for their lives. In a cold, logical, and godless universe, I cannot find any purpose whatsoever for existence. The thought that my life, let alone all existence has no purpose is extremely saddening to me.

The idea (as you like to say) that there is great and majestic purpose to existence -- i.e. spiritual growth and evolution through living out countless lives and experiences and teachings from karma -- not only makes me a happier person; it makes me a BETTER person.

So, if I'm wrong and there's nothing at the other end of my existence but oblivion... it's still preferable to have lived a happy and productive life, albeit "delusional" as you put it. But if I'm right, how would I feel after living a life where I believed there was no purpose to my existence. I would wager that I'd have much fewer friends, relationships, successes, and may well wind up either suicidal, borderline criminal, or at best, an annoying, negative curmudgeon constantly blaming everyone else for his problems. But at least I'd have my logic!

~ RS

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by cylon

...I can't help but think that we are putting our own views of what it means to be human, on what we would call God, like God wants to experience himself, so he came up with this idea to create the Big Bang, which he knew would lead to Earth, which would lead to Evolution, which would lead to humans, which would lead to conscious thought, which would lead to him being aware of "himself", when "he" has always been aware of "himself" to begin with.

I see what you're saying, but you (and others, too) seem to be missing the most crucial factor in the theory of creation, to wit:

God did not just create the Universe to be aware of himself. Of course he was aware of himself. But he also understood that he could never become MORE than himself without EXPERIENCE. Experience is what foments GROWTH, and therefore God created the Universe and dove into it in all its infinite possibilities as the only solution to His question: "Where do I go from here?" Think about it for a second. Isn't that EXACTLY what you would ask yourself if you found yourself all alone in a void, with nothing but your self-awareness and unlimited potential? The only LOGICAL thing for God to do next was CREATE an environment for himself that would allow him to GROW and LEARN.

~ RS

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

The only LOGICAL thing for God to do next was CREATE an environment for himself that would allow him to GROW and LEARN.

~ RS

I get you. This just reminds me of discussions I've had in the past, like, "ok so he wanted to grow and learn.....so why would he want to be a victim of child abuse? Or be born with a handicap? Or...(insert anything that is negative about the world or involves pain/suffering). I'm sure there's plenty of that on this forum already, don't really need to get into another discussion like that.

It just seems that, in my own mind, the "further" back I go, like Big Bang, and what may or may have not been there before, it seems the vastness of reality, is so much bigger than "and he wanted to experience "IT" , therefore Saturn exists and it has several moons" or "black holes exist, and so does ketchup".

It seems that no matter how you look at this, it ends up with humans being on top of the heap, and the inevitable result of a pre-determined idea of God. Which in my mind makes the years and years of evolution, seem very messy and haphazard, coming from an all-knowing being. Why not just make humans from thin air? Well if you believe in the Bible, that's what he did.

I guess from my perspective, I see humans as a result of evolution, and we have consciousness. It's very possible that with our level of consciousness, we are indeed interacting with and influencing "all that is" with our thoughts. Reading the storys of IM, like you with your picture frame example, and the things I've experienced, lead me to think there is something very real happening here.

But I don't necessarily see it as "on purpose", like it's possible that if kangaroos had evolved instead, and gone through all the misteps and mutations that could have led to conscious thought, they would be here typing about these topics on the kangaroo internet.

I know I'm getting off track here. Seems like my perspective changes from day to day, just trying to clarify things for myself.

[cylon]

I guess what I'm saying is, I can agree with you that perhaps we are EXPERIENCING growth, and consciousness, and learning, etc. but that it is happening in real time, and the answers are being created as we experience them. It seems that from your model, the basic answers were already known from the beginning. If so much was known at the beginning, it seems like a lot of work to go full circle like that. I don't know, maybe we're talking about the same thing.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

What happens in meditation is that you simply lose more and more of your conditioned responses and thoughts - thereby becoming more and more aware of what's happening around you, and this is when you start noticing more synchronicities.

Yes, I can understand what you mean. Thankyou. Perhaps when I experience this myself more frequently, and with greater clarity and depth, I'll stop being cynical. I will keep practicing, regardless

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

Stop being such a literalist. The "two-eyes" analogy is a metaphor for an obstacle that God needed to solve. And this is merely a theory of mine; I don't for a second mean to infer that this is fact. That would be ridiculous, of course.

I was simply trying to point out that the metaphor as it was stated begs criticism by those who don't agree, even if they're willing to be convinced. I was offering a way to achieve that convincing, or at least a greater understanding of what you're trying to say.

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

It's simply not possible. Even for God. One cannot create SOMETHING from absolute NOTHING. Assuming in this theory -- and not all that different from how Genesis reads -- In the beginning...." there was God and nothing else. No Universe, no stars nor galaxies nor dark or light matter. Nothing at all physical. Just this thought-energy clump of self-awareness all alone, surrounded by an infinite void of absolute nothingness.

Do you really believe we could possibly know what is and isn't possible for God? Even if we are part of God, we are a greatly limited part. We can try to understand, but if we try to understand through logic, we have to challenge the simple assumptions.

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

Since quantum physics shows us that all matter when broken down to its basic building blocks is truly ENERGY, it becomes logical to assume that God made the physical universe out of the thought-mind-energy that was Himself, and, basically, all there really was to work with.

Until we have a better understanding of quantum physics we can't use it to make unequivocal statements about reality. There are many interpretations of quantum mechanics, and some do support the proposition that matter is both energy and particle. Therefore we can't assume that energy was all there was to work with.

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

Isn't that EXACTLY what you would ask yourself if you found yourself all alone in a void, with nothing but your self-awareness and unlimited potential?

And that's one of the issues I have with our conjecture about God's motives. How can we, limited humans, no matter how enlightened, possibly know what God asks itself? Aren't we just feeding our ego if we assume that God would do the same thing we would? Our logic states that experience, growth and learning is a valid path to take, but that doesn't mean God's logic wouldn't state something different.

Finally, I think it's possible to live a joyful and fulfilling life while not believing in a subjective reality where we are all one. The benefits of doing good for humans, animals, and everything else in this universe are obvious to anyone who puts aside their selfishness for long enough to explore the concept of working for the greater good of all. This doesn't have to be a spiritual endeavour, but I have no complaint with those who make it one, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs onto me. Force inevitably creates resistance.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by cylon

I guess what I'm saying is, I can agree with you that perhaps we are EXPERIENCING growth, and consciousness, and learning, etc. but that it is happening in real time, and the answers are being created as we experience them. It seems that from your model, the basic answers were already known from the beginning. If so much was known at the beginning, it seems like a lot of work to go full circle like that. I don't know, maybe we're talking about the same thing.

From my understanding of what Rocket Surgery is saying, there was only awareness and potential in the beginning, but no knowledge, no experience.

[Allison]

I admittedly only skimmed your article, since I'm a bit pressed for time, but it seemed like a good, balanced take on it, though I had a bit of trouble distinguishing between when you were referring to the film and when you were stating your own ideas. But that could be due to the skimming, in which case, my bad.

I just wanted to check out what other people are saying about this, since I just saw it myself over the holidays and wrote a bit of a rant about it on my own blog today.

The ideas put forth in the film seem pretty elementary at this point, for those of us already aware of and working with that and related concepts. But it was very very incomplete. The idea that there's a "The" Secret, capitalized, is flawed to begin with, but the movie was also way too superficial in its coverage of even that one idea. I was disappointed, to say the least.

But I better not start going off on the subject again. I promised myself I was just going to get it off my chest then get into a more positive focus.

In the movie's favor... it's a start. It's breaking some ground in terms of mainstream productions of this nature. It's a decent introduction, as long as people see it as such and don't take it for the whole picture. It can be good to keep things simple at first anyway. If people can get past the 'infomercialness' of the film enough to take it seriously in the first place, it could be the thing to at least point them in a better direction.

By the way, I just joined this forum and this is my first post, so hello to everyone.

Allison

[thef0x]

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

Surely, even as a simple human being, you yourself have experience several different levels of consciousness/self-awareness.

When you are asleep and dreaming, you still have consciousness. It's just not the same as what you experience when awake and moving around.

How would you feel if you were, say, in a coma, and some advanced species came along and saw you lying there, doing nothing, and declared you were no more conscious than the bed you were lying in. Your consciousness might be dormant for the moment, but it still exists nonetheless. Who are you to say that your roommate's guitar does not experience a very limited, dormant form of consciousness.

A couple of hundred years ago, most people thought that the idea that man could fly through the air was ridiculous; let alone set foot on the moon. What you perceive as ridiculous may well just be an idea that the world hasn't caught up with yet.

Logic is a wonderful tool with which to explore the universe. But it is not the only one.

As for leading a delusional life... I believe most people search for meaning and purpose for their lives. In a cold, logical, and godless universe, I cannot find any purpose whatsoever for existence. The thought that my life, let alone all existence has no purpose is extremely saddening to me.

The idea (as you like to say) that there is great and majestic purpose to existence -- i.e. spiritual growth and evolution through living out countless lives and experiences and teachings from karma -- not only makes me a happier person; it makes me a BETTER person.

So, if I'm wrong and there's nothing at the other end of my existence but oblivion... it's still preferable to have lived a happy and productive life, albeit "delusional" as you put it. But if I'm right, how would I feel after living a life where I believed there was no purpose to my existence. I would wager that I'd have much fewer friends, relationships, successes, and may well wind up either suicidal, borderline criminal, or at best, an annoying, negative curmudgeon constantly blaming everyone else for his problems. But at least I'd have my logic!

~ RS

I live an extremely positive and optimistic life as a physicalist and an atheist.

I accept no cosmological reason for my existence, making me a nihilist.

I believe, as an existentialist would, that I, therefore, as a meaning-assigning creature, create my own purpose and/or meaning in life.

I've decided on my purpose and it creates an incredible drive in my life. Not believing that this place is an illusion and a place of suffering (which sounds NEGATIVE to me, a complaint about religion) makes me realize I have an finite time here, and helps me focus on all that I want to be and do.

I totally reject spirituality, paranormal dimensions and/or external consciousness, and even the soul. These beliefs are idealized behaviors that people assimilate to explain their reality.

I use a logical and rational system of behaviors to explain my reality.

So you can keep your beliefs and I'll keep mine. I do believe, however, that I can communicate in a much more naturalistic and phenomenological manner, which is appealing.

So I think you're whole last paragraph there was pretty narrow minded.

[thef0x]

Originally Posted by Allison

I admittedly only skimmed your article, since I'm a bit pressed for time, but it seemed like a good, balanced take on it, though I had a bit of trouble distinguishing between when you were referring to the film and when you were stating your own ideas. But that could be due to the skimming, in which case, my bad.

I just wanted to check out what other people are saying about this, since I just saw it myself over the holidays and wrote a bit of a rant about it on my own blog today.

The ideas put forth in the film seem pretty elementary at this point, for those of us already aware of and working with that and related concepts. But it was very very incomplete. The idea that there's a "The" Secret, capitalized, is flawed to begin with, but the movie was also way too superficial in its coverage of even that one idea. I was disappointed, to say the least.

But I better not start going off on the subject again. I promised myself I was just going to get it off my chest then get into a more positive focus.

In the movie's favor... it's a start. It's breaking some ground in terms of mainstream productions of this nature. It's a decent introduction, as long as people see it as such and don't take it for the whole picture. It can be good to keep things simple at first anyway. If people can get past the 'infomercialness' of the film enough to take it seriously in the first place, it could be the thing to at least point them in a better direction.

By the way, I just joined this forum and this is my first post, so hello to everyone.

Allison

.............Word

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by thef0x

I live an extremely positive and optimistic life as a physicalist and an atheist.

I accept no cosmological reason for my existence, making me a nihilist.

I believe, as an existentialist would, that I, therefore, as a meaning-assigning creature, create my own purpose and/or meaning in life.

I've decided on my purpose and it creates an incredible drive in my life. Not believing that this place is an illusion and a place of suffering (which sounds NEGATIVE to me, a complaint about religion) makes me realize I have an finite time here, and helps me focus on all that I want to be and do.

I totally reject spirituality, paranormal dimensions and/or external consciousness, and even the soul. These beliefs are idealized behaviors that people assimilate to explain their reality.

I use a logical and rational system of behaviors to explain my reality.

So you can keep your beliefs and I'll keep mine. I do believe, however, that I can communicate in a much more naturalistic and phenomenological manner, which is appealing.

So I think you're whole last paragraph there was pretty narrow minded.

The very fact that you are here, spending your valuable time reading and considering concepts of reality that are in oppostion to your own speaks volumes about your true motives. Clearly, you crave answers to your questions about existence that are not satisfied by your claimed atheism and nihilism.

Nobody here claims to have scientific proof of God or "subjective reality" or reincarnation, etc. It's just something that makes more sense to us than a purposeless, only-physical universe. I put it to you, therefore, than unless your purpose on these boards is simply to practice your skills at "debunking" metaphysical theory and promoting atheism, then you are surely fooling yourself about your true motives here.

If you are such a logical person, as you claim, then where is there any logic to ethical and moral behavior in a universe where only oblivion awaits everyone regardless of their deeds? In such a universe, why wouldn't everybody lie, cheat, and steal their way (or worse) to a much more pleasureable and comfortable life if they truly believed this was the only life they would ever experience, and that there was absolutely no benefit nor consequence either way for how they achieved such lives?

Allowing for fear of earthly punishment, imprisonment, etc, there is still PLENTY of negative behavior one can engage in which does not risk these consequences that clearly many people DO engage in all around us; but there are just as many, including yourself, assumingly, that behave with ethics and morals anyway. If there is NOTHING beyond this life, then I put it to you that your moral and ethical behavior is NOT logical at all because you could achieve a much more pleasureable and comfortable, one-shot existence were you to exercise much less moral and ethical behavior. The real question then becomes: Why don't you?

And this is the most solid evidence for the existence of God, whatever you imagine him/her/all-that-is to be. Because deep inside, we just KNOW there is more to our existence that what we witness through our physical senses, and we KNOW that it truly is important "how you play the game."

Black holes are scientific realities that defy all "logic," and yet you probably believe in their existence. Where do you think all that physical matter that gets sucked into them goes?

You're the one who is actually delusional, or you would not be here, period. You simply haven't yet heard the argument that will cause all this metaphysical stuff to "click" inside your physical brain. Heck, the fact that you even use the word "belief" speaks volumes about your true self. "Belief" implies that there is the possibility for change; "Knowledge" implies truth. So you BELIEVE you're correct about the nature of reality, but you basically admit that you do not KNOW. And that's why you can't leave this site because you're not satisfied with your current belief, but you're frustrated that our beliefs are unable to supply you with the real KNOWLEDGE you truly crave.

~ RS