The myth of I-M

[Frans]

When people see movies like "The Secret" and read books about the Law of Attraction, they get the impression that they can reach whatever they want via Intention-Manifestation: you send your intention out to the universe, the universe will arrange itself and manifest the object of your desire.

If I-M would work every time, everybody would use it, because everybody wants to be happy, rich and healthy.
All I-M users would be in a constant state of happiness, because they have (or they can get) everything they want.
Browse through these forums, and you'll see that this is not the case...

The fact is: I-M doesn't work all the time (that's the least you can say).

Some say that this is because of a lack of experience, that your intention is neutralized by other (unconscious) negative intentions, etc.
This reasoning is nothing more than a self-fulfilling prophecy: if I-M doesn't work for you, it's YOUR fault - no further explanations needed.

Now, suppose that it is possible to master I-M and that everybody becomes an I-M expert.
In that case, it would be just a matter of time before all people in the world are happy, rich and healthy, and that there will be no war or injustice anymore.

Do you really believe that?
Do you really believe that I-M is the solution for all problems?...

I-M is only a perception, an interpretation of some coincidences.
Nothing more.

Keep in mind that a person can have tens of thousands of thoughts every day, while in the same period hundreds of things happens around him.
It would be mysteriously if none of these thoughts matches with one of these events.

It's interesting to know that almost all people who defend I-M have a good reason to do this: they promote their own book, their own blog, etc. In summary: they earn money directly or indirectly with this I-M stuff.
Look at the signatures in the replies on this post.

[skydust]

Thanks for sharing your point of view, Frans.

i dont have anything to promote, yet i can tell you from numerous experiences, that IM does work. I dont think it claims to be the solution to all problems, as its up to each of us to work on ourselves. however i do believe it is possible that everyone can use it and live fulfilled lives.

i think the point of IM is to make us realize that we create our reality, including the happy and non happy parts because we create that by reacting in diffrent ways to things that happen. so if we realise that, and we create consciously instead of unconsciously, like most people do now, we become more balanced people and this will reflect (manifest) in the world around us.

We all create things each and every moment already! the only difference is, that IM makes you aware of that you do this, so that you can choose what you want to create in your life.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Frans

It's interesting to know that almost all people who defend I-M have a good reason to do this: they promote their own book, their own blog, etc. In summary: they earn money directly or indirectly with this I-M stuff.
Look at the signatures in the replies on this post.

So Steve Pavlina only says IM works because he's trying to scam some money out of you? Is that what you're saying?

I defend IM because it works for me in my life. I am not trying to sell you any book or video or make money off of you.

By your logic, I would then have to say that my dentist is part of an international scam to make money off of me by forcing me to brush my teeth and it is the brushing of my teeth that leads to tooth decay. He makes money off of me, so the advice he gives me about brushing and flossing must be a scam to get my teeth rotten so I can come back often.

With your logic, we might as well discount ALL self development materials, books, videos, seminars, etc. because the people teaching them are making money from the people purchasing the advice.

In fact, if we really think about it, someone always has some form of interest from us, so we might as well lock ourselves in a room with our dog and only trust him, nobody else. Actually wait, he's only interested in the food you give him, so he's out too.

I would have to say that out of all the arguements I've heard on this forum about whether or not IM works or not etc. your arguement that the only reason IM theory exists is simply to line the pockets of it's defenders by scamming money out of unsuspecting victims is not only immature but also very insulting.

I guess in your books someone like Steve should be forced to go out and get a "real job" and if he's interested in writing articles on self development topics, including IM, that's fine but if he has any intent to make money from the site in the process it's safe to say his articles are now lies designed to put money in his pocket.

At least Markus thinks that we believers are simply deluding ourselves with wishful thinking which is the rational thing to think for someone who hasn't seen proof of LoA and IM working, but your thinking is that we're greedy people who would lie and cheat to make money off of you.

Oh wait, are you saying that only Steve's articles on IM was a fake one, and the other ones on time management or polyphasic sleeping or any other things you actually know to be true yourself are real? So his intention is to help people but whenever he starts talking about Subjective Reality and IM and LoA he's scamming? How convenient for you.

My only question for you is this: What if you're wrong? What if IM and LoA are real? What if the authors of the books and the makers of the videos, and Steve and everyone on these forums is genuinely trying to help the people around them discover this level of awareness so that we can all manifest a better life for ourselves? What if you're wrong and you live the rest of your life missing out on something that could have made an incredible impact in the quality of your life? Nobody's asking you to buy anything anymore. Steve's articles are free. If you don't click on the advertisements, he doesn't make a penny "off of you". You have a free ticket to try this thing out but you don't want to because you think we're all trying to make money off of you. What if you're wrong?

[JHL]

When people see movies like "The Secret" and read books about the Law of Attraction, they get the impression that they can reach whatever they want via Intention-Manifestation: you send your intention out to the universe, the universe will arrange itself and manifest the object of your desire.

Some people do this, possibly. But I think you should give credit to others who engage in a somewhat more rigorous enquiry than passive acceptance of what somebody else says is true.

The fact is: I-M doesn't work all the time (that's the least you can say).

This is not a fact at all. Just because its effects arent clear to you doesnt mean the principle has ceased to operate. Its akin to saying that at night the sun stops working.

Now, suppose that it is possible to master I-M and that everybody becomes an I-M expert.
In that case, it would be just a matter of time before all people in the world are happy, rich and healthy, and that there will be no war or injustice anymore.

Everyone already is an IM expert by virtue of the fact that we all have free will and can think. The point is to understand the fact and learn how to direct it more productively.

It's interesting to know that almost all people who defend I-M have a good reason to do this: they promote their own book, their own blog, etc. In summary: they earn money directly or indirectly with this I-M stuff.
Look at the signatures in the replies on this post.

You did say "almost all"

In reading your post (and others) I was reminded of this quote:
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

We seem to be hovering around 1st base at the moment. I shall gird my loins for the violent opposition that is to follow! And no, that has nothing to do with it being Global Orgasm day today! Come on, people.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Frans

I-M is only a perception, an interpretation of some coincidences.
Nothing more.

Keep in mind that a person can have tens of thousands of thoughts every day, while in the same period hundreds of things happens around him. It would be mysteriously if none of these thoughts matches with one of these events.

I totally agree of course. You adapt your filters.

And don't get me wrong: As a motivational tool I think IM or the LoA can work great. But so does Positive Thinking.

It's the magical claims that are bogus.

[Lil Chris]

Would you define magical for me...?

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

Would you define magical for me...?

Magical claims like this:

The Universe sends me people that are in no way connected to me.
The Universe sends me money that manifest totally out of the blue in my bank account.
The Universe keeps a parking lot free just for me.
The Universe gave the winning ticket to me. And only to me.

etc.

The people from the Subjective Reality department of course top all of these claims easily!

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Frans

When people see movies like "The Secret" and read books about the Law of Attraction ...

Simple framework for analysis: Do you believe in God? If yes, then you would also believe that prayer and faith leads to God's intervention. Since:

(a) prayer is a form of thought;
(b) faith is a form of belief; and
(c) God's intervention changes physical reality,

it follows logically that your thoughts and beliefs can change physical reality. There you have - IM.

If you don't believe in God, then a good starting point would probably be quantum physics (David Bohm or Albert Einstein as the obvious starting points) or psychology (Carl Jung as the obvious starting point).

Frans, do you believe in God? Depending on your answer (yes or no), I can probably offer you a few starting points for further thought.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Markus74

I totally agree of course. You adapt your filters.

And don't get me wrong: As a motivational tool I think IM or the LoA can work great. But so does Positive Thinking.

How do you know Positive Thinking works? I once was very positive about an exercise plan I was doing and yet I quit. So that proves that thinking that positive thinking works is just....well.... positive thinking! Why not think "realistically" so that you have a very good understanding of how the situation *really* is, or better yet why not think about the worse case scenario, so that you're prepared for the worse in case it comes?

I'm curious Markus, since you believe in positive thinking, how would you prove that it works to a pessimist?

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

If you don't believe in God, then a good starting point would probably be quantum physics (David Bohm or Albert Einstein as the obvious starting points) or psychology (Carl Jung as the obvious starting point).

Frans, do you believe in God? Depending on your answer (yes or no), I can probably offer you a few starting points for further thought.

There is no intervening God. But, hey God, if you're reading this, you can prove me wrong!

Quantum physics isn't about changing our macroscopic reality. And no serious quantum scientists claims this. Only fringe 'scientists'. The fact that things act weird on a microscopic scale hasn't any influence on the macroscopic world. But of course you can show me examples and prove me wrong. I'm waiting.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Frans, do you believe in God? Depending on your answer (yes or no), I can probably offer you a few starting points for further thought.

I invite you to read my (updated) vision about reality here: What is the meaning of my life?

@impaul99: There are no Adsense ads on this site and you won't find any donation buttons either.
This site costs me money, but I have deliberately chosen for that, so everybody can see that I earn nothing with sharing my view.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by impaul99

How do you know Positive Thinking works? I once was very positive about an exercise plan I was doing and yet I quit. So that proves that thinking that positive thinking works is just....well.... positive thinking! Why not think "realistically" so that you have a very good understanding of how the situation *really* is, or better yet why not think about the worse case scenario, so that you're prepared for the worse in case it comes?

I'm curious Markus, since you believe in positive thinking, how would you prove that it works to a pessimist?

He has two choices:

He can tell himself that he won't succeed and thus sabotage himself.
He can tell himself that he will succeed and thus motivate himself.

Whether or not he now will succeed INDEED depends on a lot of factors. Just chanting: "I will succeed" isn't a guarantee for success. You have to act accordingly. Otherwise you will be naive and fail.

You have to combine Realism with Positive Thinking.

Dreaming big helps sometimes too and big dreams are often responsible for the greatest achievements, but this is deceptive. Because you later only hear from those few people who actually succeeded in realizing their dream, the others have vanished ...

And those that have succeeded didn't just wait for the Universe to create everything for themselves. THEY created what they needed themselves.

[danas]

Hi Franz, Im glad you wrote your thoughts, but I do not agree with you.
8 years ago my period dissapeared for half a year. I went to doctors, no one knew what as wrong. A friend said to me: have you aked for it?
He said before I go to sleep, I should imagine myself getting my period, exactly the place and time and feeling, and then say thank you for it and let go.
I did this for 2 nights, the next day I got my period in the exact place and time i imagined. I called my friend astonished : This is crazy!! how did it happen?!?
He said: well, everything can be manifested like that...
I started reading books, I manifested the job I wanted, passed my first driving test etc... All with complete awareness of this new secret I discovered. I constantly tested it. The time gap between the Intenstion until it manifested got shorter. Since then Ive manifested bigger things (you can read my threads on this site). Its a tool I work with. but one thing that blocks us is doubt. The secret is having certainty.
Wars happen because of fear. Which creates more fear.
Love creates more love.
IM always works, but most people are in fear- that they lack, that there isnt enough. It is not so easy to overcome fear. Mastering IM - you become a higher being: You wont think any negative thoughts. Not so easy, hey?
If all the world will not think any negative thoughts, Yes, there will be no more wars! but how simple is that? Maybe if everyone becomes more aware of the power of creation each thought has, they would at least try to think only positive things. But still we are human, and thats not an easy task. I, for instance, am very aware of the power each thought of mine has, but still I cannot say all my thought are clean and positive (how boring would that be? but at least I know where to aim)
By the way, no signature links at the end of this thread.
D

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Frans

Now, suppose that it is possible to master I-M and that everybody becomes an I-M expert.
In that case, it would be just a matter of time before all people in the world are happy, rich and healthy, and that there will be no war or injustice anymore.

Do you really believe that?
Do you really believe that I-M is the solution for all problems?...

I don't believe that, because of the inherent nature of the human mind. Buddhism explains it rather well; but any discipline involving meditation also addresses the same point. It is also something you will discover experientially for yourself, if you meditate.

The human mind has a tendency to constantly disturb itself - for example, by producing negative thoughts. Most of us have very limited control over our minds - for example, if I say "for the next 10 seconds, don't think of a pink elephant", you will NOT be able to not think of a pink elephant.

Therefore true IM mastery, or anything close, isn't possible unless you have perfect or near-perfect control of your thoughts. But if you did have near-perfect control, you would be enlightened, like Buddha or Jesus. By which time, manifesting empty parking lots will not interest you much. Although if there was a need, you WOULD walk on water, heal the blind, raise the dead etc.

And if everybody, as you say, DOES master IM, then basically the entire human race would be enlightened, and yes, I would say that by then, all people in the world would be happy and healthy, and that there wouldn't be no war or injustice anymore.

Don't hold your breath waiting, though.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Markus74

And no serious quantum scientists claims this.

Been there, discussed that, haven't we?

If Fred Alan Wolf had never said anything about LOA, you would regard him as a serious quantum physicist. But now that he has said something about LOA, you regard him as a non-serious quantum physicist. And for no other reason than the fact he has said something about LOA.

If the failure of your own logic does not strike you, then I ....... oh, never mind.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Markus74

Whether or not he now will succeed INDEED depends on a lot of factors. Just chanting: "I will succeed" isn't a guarantee for success. You have to act accordingly. Otherwise you will be naive and fail.

So he gets the results purely form his actions? Then why think positive? Wouldn't his actions be more accurate if he was realistic?

You have to combine Realism with Positive Thinking.

What does that mean?

Dreaming big helps sometimes too and big dreams are often responsible for the greatest achievements, but this is deceptive. Because you later only hear from those few people who actually succeeded in realizing their dream, the others have vanished ...

So then are you saying positive thinking doesn't actually work? It's a deception?

[Frans]

It is said many times on this forum that you can reach anything you want with I-M. In other words, I-M is the magic tool that brings you health, prosperity and happiness, on condition that you master I-M completely.

All I-M users who consider themselves as experienced and skilled I-M masters should ask themselves:

Am I really happy, healthy and wealthy?

If that is not the case, then I-M is not working, because...
(a) you're not a I-M master
(b) I-M is a failing concept

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Frans

I invite you to read my (updated) vision about reality here: What is the meaning of my life?

@impaul99: There are no Adsense ads on this site and you won't find any donation buttons either.
This site costs me money, but I have deliberately chosen for that, so everybody can see that I earn nothing with sharing my view.

You'll find adwords on my site, and a donation button, and you'll definitely find a link to my blog in my signature. This is not because I'm greedy, but because I've lost my guilt of making a living in this world a long time ago. If someone finds my blog inspirational and they want to donate, why not? If they find my site valueless for them, I haven't cost them anything.

If a mechanic provides value to me by fixing my car, I will pay him.
If a waitress gives me good service at a restaurant, I will give her a good tip.
If my lawyer offers me valuable advice, I pay him.
If my nutritionist offers me nutritional advice I will pay him.

Why should anyone running a blog on self development or anything else feel any guilt for having adwords, or a donation button? After all, out of all the other jobs people in the world have and all the ways to make money, we're one of the few that don't ask for anything until AFTER we provide value to you, and even then we don't ask for anything, it's purely your choice. In fact, except via donation, you NEVER pay anything anyways, it's the advertisers that pay, not you! I have donated to Steve's website on a few occasions but I assure you I've already made hundreds of times the amount of money from his advice.

Just my opinion though. I used to feel guilty asking for money at one point in my life, but I don't anymore. What you do with your blog is up to you but just because you haven't monatized your site doesn't mean your message is somehow "more pure". After all, I could just as easily say that you're just going after fame or that you're going to build up the traffic to a certain point and THEN throw adwords up there etc. Not that I'd say something like that but you know what I mean.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Been there, discussed that, haven't we?

If Fred Alan Wolf had never said anything about LOA, you would regard him as a serious quantum physicist. But now that he has said something about LOA, you regard him as a non-serious quantum physicist. And for no other reason than the fact he has said something about LOA.

Show me ONE experiment that would confirm his theory. One.

[edit: an experiment relating to our MACROSCOPIC world]

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by impaul99

So he gets the results purely form his actions?

Mostly yes. But random chance is also always present.

Then why think positive? Wouldn't his actions be more accurate if he was realistic?

Because nobody's perfect and positive thinking will ignore, or overcome, the doubts that sometimes come knocking on your door. It's obvious, and it also has been proven, that optimists are more probable to be successful then pessimists. But which of course does not mean that optimists ALWAYS succeed.

Positive thinking also helps you when you're confronted with problems and prevents you from giving up to soon.

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