The myth of I-M

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by moviestar

No. But he should write articles for "Smart People". That's what brought me to his site. The articles were useful and good before and I really liked them. Steve just realized that there are more not-so-smart people in the world and he wants more traffic to his site so he started writing more and more about I-M and subjective reality.
And it works, there a lot of people that catch into it because it is an easy belief. It's a marketing trick. It's easier to believe that you are omnipotent and can have anything in life just by pure thought than believing that you will have to get through a lot of pain and hard work to achieve the results you want. It's the promise of omnipotency that brings people to I-M.
Nobody wants pain and you will hate me because I tell you that you will have to WORK for what you intend.

So what you're saying is that Steve doesn't really believe in Subjective Reality or IM. He simply realized that there are a lot of stupid people (like myself, in your opinion, since I'm a believer), who will come to his website and generate more traffic for him if he writes about this type of thing. So, in order to make more money he went against his moral values and now writes articles about lies just out of greed. This is your analysis of the situation?

I would then guess that authors like Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, the makers of "The Secret", the makers of "What the Bleep Do We Know", the author of "The Dissapearance of the Universe" etc. are all also such crooks who made up this big pile of crap to sell to stupid people to make money.

The singer Jewel is also full of crap since her and her mother believe in Intention Manifestation. In fact there are probably hundreds of other authors in the self-development industry who are in the same boat.

This is a very convienient conspiracy theory. However, what if you're wrong?

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by impaul99

So what you're saying is that Steve doesn't really believe in Subjective Reality or IM. He simply realized that there are a lot of stupid people (like myself, in your opinion, since I'm a believer), who will come to his website and generate more traffic for him if he writes about this type of thing. So, in order to make more money he went against his moral values and now writes articles about lies just out of greed. This is your analysis of the situation?

I would then guess that authors like Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, the makers of "The Secret", the makers of "What the Bleep Do We Know", the author of "The Disappearance of the Universe" etc. are all also such crooks who made up this big pile of crap to sell to stupid people to make money.

The singer Jewel is also full of crap since her and her mother believe in Intention Manifestation. In fact there are probably hundreds of other authors in the self-development industry who are in the same boat.

This is a very convenient conspiracy theory. However, what if you're wrong?

I personally wouldn't say that they're total crooks. But some, or most of these people, are in this because of the money that can be made with selling such theories. And you always have to pay huge sums for their seminars.

But people want to hear stories like these because they make them feel better and even empower them to a certain degree. Although rarely to never to the degree of the promises.

The authors may believe, in varying degrees, into their own theories but I'm sure some of them privately don't totally subscribe to them. Or maybe they just don't care about the inconsistencies and flaws because they're just like their followers (or Mulder). They want to believe.

There's one sure thing though: The best way to make money yourself is still to sell 'the secret to get rich' to others

[Shaden]

So what you're saying is that Steve doesn't really believe in Subjective Reality or IM. He simply realized that there are a lot of stupid people (like myself, in your opinion, since I'm a believer), who will come to his website and generate more traffic for him if he writes about this type of thing. So, in order to make more money he went against his moral values and now writes articles about lies just out of greed. This is your analysis of the situation?

I would then guess that authors like Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, the makers of "The Secret", the makers of "What the Bleep Do We Know", the author of "The Dissapearance of the Universe" etc. are all also such crooks who made up this big pile of crap to sell to stupid people to make money.

The singer Jewel is also full of crap since her and her mother believe in Intention Manifestation. In fact there are probably hundreds of other authors in the self-development industry who are in the same boat.

This is a very convienient conspiracy theory. However, what if you're wrong?

It's entirely possible. If you've adopted a belief without inherent proof, then you should know this better then anyone else - you cannot prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. Anything is possible. Faith, belief, theory, proof, whatever - it's all the same - a little cover for what we're really trying to say - 'This is what I think'

Although saying that I don't believe Steve is an immoral person lining his pockets with a theory he himself doesn't personally buy into. Though those other PD speakers - they seem a little more suspect...

I don't think anyone is stupid or smart. I think what Steve was doing with the tagline was inviting those who were tired of all the (in his own words) 'self-proclaimed, self-help gurus' who know it all, but ultimately were not providing any positive results for those they were trying to help. I think the fact that these forums are heaving with visitors and the section with the most controversial topic (this one) is the only place where people openly criticize him is testament to the positive effect he has had on peoples lifes.

On a sidenote I believe in objectivism - anyone else with me? No?

[moviestar]

How do you define "smart people"?

You can define it however you want to. I define it as people which want concrete proven results.

Originally Posted by impaul99

So what you're saying is that Steve doesn't really believe in Subjective Reality or IM. He simply realized that there are a lot of stupid people (like myself, in your opinion, since I'm a believer), who will come to his website and generate more traffic for him if he writes about this type of thing. So, in order to make more money he went against his moral values and now writes articles about lies just out of greed. This is your analysis of the situation?

I don't think he was thinking about money at the time. I think he discovered IM, he saw that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. He thought: "well it works sometimes I might as well write about it on my blog". Then people started writing him and telling that they also use IM and it sometimes works for them too! And a feedback loop started - I believe it because you believe it because I believe it. IM got pretty popular, generated more traffic, Steve got more popular and all is good for him. I'm not telling he is a crook, but what is the difference now between him and any religious person selling you hope for a better afterlife?

I would then guess that authors like Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, the makers of "The Secret", the makers of "What the Bleep Do We Know", the author of "The Dissapearance of the Universe" etc. are all also such crooks who made up this big pile of crap to sell to stupid people to make money.

Well, all of them are rich.
Did you hear about anti-gurus? Those are people that have some kind of secret but they don't really want to help anyone and don't make any profit out of it. Why not look at them for help?

This is a very convienient conspiracy theory. However, what if you're wrong?

Then you will live a better life than me, good luck.

[ethereal]

i haven't read the entire thread, but there's a couple articles i've read recently that helped me understand IM a lot better, and hopefully it will help you guys too. would be glad to hear you guys' comments on it too.

Transcending the Control System: True Reality Creation (Part I)
Transcending the Control System: True Reality Creation (Part II)
Transcending the Control System: Realm Dynamics

[Markus74]

Then you better read this thread first ... instead of giving us more IM stuff to read.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Markus74

I personally wouldn't say that they're total crooks. But some, or most of these people, are in this because of the money that can be made with selling such theories. And you always have to pay huge sums for their seminars.

But people want to hear stories like these because they make them feel better and even empower them to a certain degree. Although rarely to never to the degree of the promises.

The authors may believe, in varying degrees, into their own theories but I'm sure some of them privately don't totally subscribe to them. Or maybe they just don't care about the inconsistencies and flaws because they're just like their followers (or Mulder). They want to believe.

There's one sure thing though: The best way to make money yourself is still to sell 'the secret to get rich' to others

Well, here's the problem with your theory. Since every self-development author makes money from the books/seminars they sell (including Steve via his blog), your arguement would have to extend to the whole self-development industry. Meaning, it really has nothing to do with IM or LoA, but rather with the concept of selling advice. Any self-development author, regardless whether they are writing about time management or intention manifestation could be said to be "only in it for the money". Let's take Anthony Robbins as an example. He could be selling his crap to people like me, who believe in it simply to make money. I have a lot of his multi-media seminars and I have gone to one of his seminars in the past. I have also read pretty much every book he's written at least once. We could easily make the same arguement about him saying he's just in it for the money but he doesn't really believe in his own crap, just sells it because it makes money.

Here are the flaws I see in that line of thinking:

1) If the advice that is being sold was crap, the only power it would actually have would be to help the people selling it. There would be no examples of people who used the advice to change their lives for the better. Instead there would be the "guru" making lots of money and a whole bunch of victims who are simply short the money they paid for the book or seminar.

I know this isn't true from real life experience because I know several multi-millionaires who make money doing things that have absolutely nothing to do with the self-help industry and they credit these authors with their success. One of them is a guy who really made me believe in these books in the first place. Maybe that is one real life experience I have that you guys don't, and perhaps that's why I believe what I do and you guys don't. All I know is that the successful people I know are heavy into reading these books and going to seminars etc., and all the people I know who are broke and in debt refuse to read self-development books precisely for the same reason you guys are stating.

THis is of-course not even including my own success with self development material. I have made a crapload of money since getting into this stuff and have helped others make money with it. THat's nothing though compared to the other areas of my life that have had a quality improvement like my relationships, health, family life etc.

2) Scamming people with false advice doesn't last. If the self-development industry was a scam it would have disappeared a long time ago. If Anthony Robbins was selling crap advice, he would have had one seminar and then everyone would have told everyone how crappy it was, and how it DIDN'T change their life, and he would have disappeared off the scene like a bad haircut. The reason he continues to make money selling advice is because his advice is good. I can attest to that personally. Not just singeling him out, I would say the same about all the self-development authors I have read.

3) If you really believe in this "theory" then you can't just apply it to the self-development industry either. You'd have to apply it to everyone who sells any product or service. Like I mentioned in a previous post, how do I know my dentist isn't lying to me about brushing and flossing my teeth? I mean, he's in it for the money right? He could be telling me to brush and floss because he knows that is EXACTLY what's going to give me cavities and stuff so that he can fix them. Even with slightly more subtle advice from him like "stop drinking Coke!", he could just be telling me that because he knows drinking "Coke" makes teeth stronger! Of course all the dentists would have to be in on this, but that's doable if the whole self-development industry is in on their own conspiracy.

4) The last and most important distinction is that with your line of thinking you severly stunt your potential growth, because your thinking is that when you read a self-development book and it makes sense to you then you consider the author legit and "one of the good guys", but since you already know and believe what they are teaching, you really don't get a lot of value out of the book. However, when you read a self-development book and you don't yet agree with the materials because it is out of the scope of your understanding or doesn't yet align with your beliefs you think "This is crap! This author just wrote this to make money! It can't be true!".

So you're always stuck. You'll be in the same spot 10 years from now as you are now because you'll just keep reading books from authors that align with your current beliefs and anyone who tries to teach you a new belief that might conflict with your existing beliefs you'll just dismiss as a fraud.

Some of the biggest leaps I've made in my success in life happened after reading books that I didn't agree with when I first read them. They pissed me off and I couldn't understand how they could be true, but because I trust the authors wouldn't be fraudulent I decided to experiment with what they teach to see if it works and it helped me out tremendously.

This is the same with my martial arts training. My Sensei will often bring something up that I have a hard time understanding as it might even go against my beliefs at the time. Instead of trying to figure out ten thousand reasons why he has to be wrong, I just go along with it and try it out like he suggests. In one example, there was a technique he was teaching that basically causes a person to drop straight down to the ground in pain simply by applying pressure on a certain spot on the wrist. Sensei demonstrated the technique and it looked fake. It looked like the other guy was just dropping to the ground on purpose for the demonstration, not because the technique actually worked. Myself and two other people I trained with tried it out and we couldn't make it work, and in fact we even called over another black belt who tried to do it to me and he couldn't get the technique working on me. I just stood there and didn't move while they tried to apply this so-called technique to my wrist but it wasn't doing anything to me. My wrist was slightly annoyed at best, but nothing enough to cause me to hit the ground. Sensei didn't come around that class and we never asked him about it that class so we left that night thinking that this technique is either fake or it simply doesn't work on everyone.

Two weeks later, I came to class and Sensei brought up this technique again, and we broke up into partners and once again my partner tried making it work on me but couldn't do it. He got frustrated and called Sensei over and said to Sensei "This technique doesn't work on Paul." and Sensei said "Hmm...really? Ok... mind if I try?".... he took a step in front of me, I grabbed his Gi as I was doing with my partner and he proceeded to try the technique. It only took him about half a second to apply the technique and it sent shooting pain down my arm all the way from my wrist straight down through to my elbow and to my shoulder joint. I hit the ground like a sack of potatoes. THe pain was quick and unbearable, and once he let go it was gone just as quickly as it appeared.

THe lesson learned was that just because it doesn't look like it logically makes any sense how something could work, doesn't mean it doesn't work. Just because your beliefs are in conflict with what someone is trying to teach you, it doesn't mean they are frauds just trying to scam you for money.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

My final comment is this:

I would strongly suggest you make a decision in your life to either believe that the self-development industry is a scam, full of tricksters who are just in it to make money, in which case it is better to stay away from it;

or

Believe that the self-development industry is full of people who have succeeded in life and simply want to share what they have learned with other people. THey have no ill-intentions and are NOT just in it for the money. THey DO make money, because there is nothing wrong with making money, and in fact if they didnt' make any money from their advice then people would just say "Well they can't be that good." anyways. I know that if I saw Tony Robbins living in a 1 bedroom apartment, driving a beat up 1982 Honda Civic with rusted wheelwells I wouldn't listen to him.

[moviestar]

I personally don't believe that making money is bad. If a self-hep guru makes money it is because he produced some kind of value that people agree to pay money for. So it's OK if they are rich. But I don't think they are there for the money, money is not the problem.
I think the self-help people want attention and want popularity. Because of that they come up with ideas that really bring attention of a lot of people and gives them hope. For example Tony Robbins has some great advice, he really understands the human mind but NLP? Fire walking? It's just a trick that gets attention, the real advice is somewhere else.
Just like Steve Pavlina, he has some really great articles but he gets attention with spooky stuff like subjective reality. It doesn't help anyone. Stuff that helps is written in articles like "Do it now", that is what counts.

[Markus74]

Paul:

Books are ok. They're not that expensive and they do have some decent advice. And if people want to buy one after the other until their rooms break, that's their choice.

But the seminars are mostly scams. People get lured with promises that are unlikely to realize. And of course that's never the fault of the course but of the people! People pay ridiculous amounts of money for something they could read in a book or that even everyone with common sense could tell them. The self-help gurus package it nicely though and get people in a sort of collective trance that wears of the moment they're confronted with reality again. All the while the gurus are laughing all their way to the bank.

These self-help gurus are like priests that you pay so they will tell you something motivating, nice and comforting. But the prices are ridiculous. A lot of simple people have to save for a long time so they can afford them and then only get the same blabla that's in the books. Their naivety gets milked.

For some people these seminars may work, but for most they don't. And they're cult like. And if you fail, it's your fault. The Theory/Law cannot fail. The Theory/Law is always right. So maybe you need a second seminar to get it. Or a third one. Just bring us your money.

Or maybe just a friend who will kick your ass so you wake up, stop whining and get a grip at life again.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by moviestar

I personally don't believe that making money is bad. If a self-hep guru makes money it is because he produced some kind of value that people agree to pay money for. So it's OK if they are rich. But I don't think they are there for the money, money is not the problem.

I think the self-help people want attention and want popularity. Because of that they come up with ideas that really bring attention of a lot of people and gives them hope. For example Tony Robbins has some great advice, he really understands the human mind but NLP? Fire walking? It's just a trick that gets attention, the real advice is somewhere else.

Just like Steve Pavlina, he has some really great articles but he gets attention with spooky stuff like subjective reality. It doesn't help anyone. Stuff that helps is written in articles like "Do it now", that is what counts.

True, you've got a point there too.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by moviestar

It doesn't help anyone.

Every day there are people in this forum who write about how IM etc has helped them.

If you refuse to believe them, well, you are denying the direct evidence and testimonies appearing on your computer screen.

Mind you, these people aren't even self-help gurus. They have no monetary incentive to tell you what they are telling you.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Markus74

But the seminars are mostly scams.

I have never actually been to any such seminar. But from a business perspective, I doubt if they could be scams in the manner you have portrayed to be. If they were, how could the business model be sustainable & successful for so long? It should have burst long ago, like the dot com companies in Year 2000 or the Dutch tulip sellers.

[Brutha]

Lets take a basketball player who believes in the Newtonian laws.
After the Newtonian laws he should be able to throw each free throw succesfully.
He is strong enough to throw the ball, therefore he is capable to throw a free throw. But in reality the Newtonian laws fail sometimes and the free through isn't succesful.

Now you can either blame the basketball player for throwing wrong or blame the Newtonian laws.

It is the same with the LoA, because people don't get the results they want you can blame the law or the person.

Nobody who believe in Newtonian laws belief that it is easy to throw the ball with exactly the right impulse that is required for a succesful free throw.
Nobody of the people who promote the LoA say that it is easy to control your own mind.

Probably nobody of the people who critisise the LoA here are able control their mind in a way that they have 5 minutes no conscious thought.
If some of you are able to do this, try to hallucinate a dog that stands beneath you and look just as real as a real dog would look like. (I bet you belief that people are able to hallucinate things, don't you?)

That is something with is extremly difficult to do. And thats only two excercise that deal with conscious thoughts.
To control unconscious thoughts on the other hand is a magnitute more difficult.

I also think that Steve wrote nowhere that Intention Manifestion is an easy way to become a millionaire.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Brutha

It is the same with the LoA, because people don't get the results they want you can blame the law or the person.

The difference is that Newtonian Laws can be verified and do actually exist. Unlike the law of attraction (or at least the more outrageous aspects of it).

For example: Gravity is a fact and can be verified. I just need to let something fall out of my hand to prove it. Here on Earth it will ALWAYS fall down. Hence I do not need to believe in gravity to experience it.

Now let's take the 'law' of attraction. Sometimes it seems to work, often it doesn't. That's not a law! That's a concept. What kind of physical law only works when you believe in it??

Anyone who doesn't see the difference between these two examples has to be delusional.

[maryelyn]

Originally Posted by Markus74

Now let's take the 'law' of attraction. Sometimes it seems to work, often it doesn't. That's not a law! That's a concept. What kind of physical law only works when you believe in it??

Anyone who doesn't see the difference between these two examples has to be delusional.

actually...you don't even have to believe in it for it to work...sometimes. there are people on this forum who are uncertain about the scientific validity of loa, but still admit that it does seem to work for them...sometimes.

so there's a missing link. but the missing link is not 'belief'....

(and 'being delusional' is not necessarily a bad thing! )

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by moviestar

I personally don't believe that making money is bad. If a self-hep guru makes money it is because he produced some kind of value that people agree to pay money for. So it's OK if they are rich. But I don't think they are there for the money, money is not the problem.
I think the self-help people want attention and want popularity. Because of that they come up with ideas that really bring attention of a lot of people and gives them hope. For example Tony Robbins has some great advice, he really understands the human mind but NLP? Fire walking? It's just a trick that gets attention, the real advice is somewhere else.
Just like Steve Pavlina, he has some really great articles but he gets attention with spooky stuff like subjective reality. It doesn't help anyone. Stuff that helps is written in articles like "Do it now", that is what counts.

Ahh, I see, so all the articles that Steve writes that you believe in are the valuable ones, and the ones that he writes about stuff you don't believe in must be the ones he writes just to bring traffic to his website from all the people who type in "IM" and "LoA" into Google. Interesting theory. I don't buy it.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Markus74

Paul:

Books are ok. They're not that expensive and they do have some decent advice. And if people want to buy one after the other until their rooms break, that's their choice.

But the seminars are mostly scams. People get lured with promises that are unlikely to realize. And of course that's never the fault of the course but of the people! People pay ridiculous amounts of money for something they could read in a book or that even everyone with common sense could tell them. The self-help gurus package it nicely though and get people in a sort of collective trance that wears of the moment they're confronted with reality again. All the while the gurus are laughing all their way to the bank.

These self-help gurus are like priests that you pay so they will tell you something motivating, nice and comforting. But the prices are ridiculous. A lot of simple people have to save for a long time so they can afford them and then only get the same blabla that's in the books. Their naivety gets milked.

For some people these seminars may work, but for most they don't. And they're cult like. And if you fail, it's your fault. The Theory/Law cannot fail. The Theory/Law is always right. So maybe you need a second seminar to get it. Or a third one. Just bring us your money.

Or maybe just a friend who will kick your ass so you wake up, stop whining and get a grip at life again.

Really? Have you been to a Tony Robbins seminar? I have. I had to fly to a different city, pay for the flight, pay for the hotel fees for 3 nights on top of the seminar fees. There was some of that motivational rah-rah stuff you talk about but it was fun! It kept the energy of the room up for the 3 days as we were taught a LOT of material so it was pretty exhausting. We didn't do firewalking but we did board breaking for anyone who wanted to. It was kinda cool for me, but what really inspired me was when I saw some of the ladies there do it when they were very small framed and had hardly any muscle on them, some of them being in their later years. Nobody was forced to do anything, but they totally wanted to do it and they did it as part of an exercise on overcoming fear.

I totally loved the seminar and didn't feel ripped off at all. The stuff I learned has helped me tremendously in my business and I've used it over the last 4-5 years since the seminar.

So, I'm not really sure what scam seminars you're referring to. I also went to a Deepak Chopra one here locally and that was awesome too and it was only $90. The only people I hear talking about seminars being scams are the people who haven't been to one.

[maryelyn]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Ahh, I see, so all the articles that Steve writes that you believe in are the valuable ones, and the ones that he writes about stuff you don't believe in must be the ones he writes just to bring traffic to his website from all the people who type in "IM" and "LoA" into Google.

exactly! 'subjective reality' at it's finest!

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by maryelyn

actually...you don't even have to believe in it for it to work...sometimes. there are people on this forum who are uncertain about the scientific validity of loa, but still admit that it does seem to work for them...sometimes.

so there's a missing link. but the missing link is not 'belief'....

(and 'being delusional' is not necessarily a bad thing! )

There are varying degrees of "Belief".

For example from -10 being total disbelief, 0 being neutral, to +10 total belief.

The closer you are to +10 the better it works. To make something happen I believe you only need to be neutral or very slightly on the positive side.

I don't think anyone believes at the +10 level until they manifest some really big stuff. Secret is to at least be neutral and try it out.

Every post people make giving reasons why LoA can't work moves them further away from 0, from being neutral because the ego doesn't like to be wrong and they are creating references which "prove" to them that LoA can't work.

[Brutha]

For example: Gravity is a fact and can be verified. I just need to let something fall out of my hand to prove it. Here on Earth it will ALWAYS fall down.

I intent that my arm moves. Then my arm moves, so I have verified the Law of Attraction in on case.
That proves the law of attraction as much as your example of letting something fall proves the law of gravitation.

It just proves that the law works in one case.

So I have a helium balloon in my hand. If you are right that helium balloon should fall down. But it doesn't.
Now you can say I have selected the wrong object for your experiment.
So you blame me instand of your law, because you something like "a bit of air is really "fallen down" the law isn't wrong, my experiment was wrong.

That is similar to someone making an experiment with the LoA and manifesting his own doubts that the experiment doesn't work.

Their is no way to prove such laws.
In addition you don't have enough control over your own mind to do scientific experiments with the LoA. Their are no computer that are able to observe your thoughts so you simply can't make an objective experiment.

[maryelyn]

Originally Posted by impaul99

There are varying degrees of "Belief".

For example from -10 being total disbelief, 0 being neutral, to +10 total belief.

The closer you are to +10 the better it works. To make something happen I believe you only need to be neutral or very slightly on the positive side.

I don't think anyone believes at the +10 level until they manifest some really big stuff. Secret is to at least be neutral and try it out.

Every post people make giving reasons why LoA can't work moves them further away from 0, from being neutral because the ego doesn't like to be wrong and they are creating references which "prove" to them that LoA can't work.

hmmm...i dunno...
if your basic premise is that loa is a law and that it is working all the time whether you believe in it or not, then what does it matter where on the scale of 'belief' you fall? the only effect that non-belief would have is in your ability to consciously control your 'attractions'. and although that would certainly make a difference as to how your circumstances are affected, it doesn't effect the validity of the 'law'.

(and would somebody PLEASE explain the difference to me between 'effect' and 'affect'! i seem to have a mental block there... )

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by maryelyn

hmmm...i dunno...
if your basic premise is that loa is a law and that it is working all the time whether you believe in it or not, then what does it matter where on the scale of 'belief' you fall? the only effect that non-belief would have is in your ability to consciously control your 'attractions'. and although that would certainly make a difference as to how your circumstances are affected, it doesn't effect the validity of the 'law'.

(and would somebody PLEASE explain the difference to me between 'effect' and 'affect'! i seem to have a mental block there... )

Affect is a verb, like "Not believing in LoA can affect your results."

Effect is noun? Let me think. THe context would be "The LoA had a positive effect on my life."

ANother way to think of it is that something affects you and thus produces an effect. Don't know if it makes sense to explain it this way.

As far as your first comment, LoA is working either way, but your belief that it doesn't work attracts proof that it doesn't work in terms of thoughts, ideas, physical events, etc. which "prove" to you that it doesn't work. If you believe that it does work, it will attract "proof" that it does work.

The trick is to be at least neutral and do a trial on it. Try it out for 30 days or 6 months and see if it works for you. If LoA works the way we say it does, then you'll be able to attract "proof" that i works for you. If after 6 months you haven't produced the results you wanted even though you believed it works, then you'll know LoA is fake.

It's the same with any self development topic really. I mean, I totally believe in positive thinking because I tried it out. I believe that cutting out refined sugars from my diet will help me lose fat around my waist, because I tried it etc. The thing is to try things out and give them a chance. Unless it's something that will harm you or cause problems, there's no negative sides to trying. Especially something like LoA since it has such a low entry cost associated with it. You don't need anything more than you already have right now. No magic wand to buy, no secret seminar, no special technique that you have to go somewhere to practice, nothing except what you already have at your disposal. I think that's why so many people have such a hard time believing it works, because their low self esteem tells them that there is NO WAY they are that powerful. People are afraid of their own power.

Anyway, you can believe what you want, it's your life.

[maryelyn]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Anyway, you can believe what you want, it's your life.

now, that's exactly where i'm comin' from, babe!

you don't have to argue the pros and cons of loa to me - i'm a believer.
i don't even require proof - i believe it 'cuz it suits me to believe it. people always believe what it suits them to believe, and they tailor their arguments once the belief is in place. or, anyway - that's what i believe!

but, with loa - it sure is fun when you do get the proof!

(thanks for the effect/affect definition - maybe it'll stick this time!)

[magickmystik]

Definition of Law of attraction: (again)

"The Law of Attraction
At the atomic or electronic level the Law of Attraction is thusly stated: like attracts unlike, like repels like. Paradoxically, at the psychological level this is reversed: like attracts like, unlike repels unlike. The old-age adage expresses it thus: "birds of a feather flock together."

The laws of Magnetism and Attraction are closely related; one is a subsidiary law of the other. The nature of our magnetism attracts to us things that resonate with our radiation. For instance, if we fear a thing and radiate fear, that thing shall be part of our experience for we would attract it to us. The law may be usefully applied in such a manner: in order to be prosperous and wealthy, one has to create the condition within one's conscious and subconscious mind that would attract riches. This is done firstly, by removing any negative fixations and complexes that one may have of money or anything related to wealth. Next, the subconscious mind would have to be reprogrammed with a new pattern of thought. "
indotalisman.com

it is as simple as that. Don't add things to it or change the definition. Notice it "attract", we still need to do the 'action'. Whether or not, we have the ability to act appropriately or not is another subject.

thus, the question to ask oneself: Have i HONESTLY REMOVE any negative fixations and complexes about money / wealth? (if desiring wealth) and have i REPROGRAMMED the subconscious YET??

DON"T BLAME THE LAW...yet, if it's not working, it's one's own FAULT.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by maryelyn

now, that's exactly where i'm comin' from, babe!

you don't have to argue the pros and cons of loa to me - i'm a believer.
i don't even require proof - i believe it 'cuz it suits me to believe it. people always believe what it suits them to believe, and they tailor their arguments once the belief is in place. or, anyway - that's what i believe!

but, with loa - it sure is fun when you do get the proof!

(thanks for the effect/affect definition - maybe it'll stick this time!)

I added a little symbol in my signature (~~~) that means I believe in LoA and IM. Would any other believers care to unite by adding this symbol to their signature? If someone has a better idea for a symbol, I'm all ears.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by magickmystik

Definition of Law of attraction: (again)

it is as simple as that. Don't add things to it or change the definition. Notice it "attract", we still need to do the 'action'. Whether or not, we have the ability to act appropriately or not is another subject.

Sometimes the "action" can simply be speaking one word, or simply having one thought. The "Action" part of receiving is not limited to the physical world.

[maryelyn]

Originally Posted by magickmystik

DON"T BLAME THE LAW...yet, if it's not working, it's one's own FAULT.

nah, can't go there - i accept no fault, i am faultless.

and don't forget - it's ALWAYS working! loa never sleeps...

[magickmystik]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Sometimes the "action" can simply be speaking one word, or simply having one thought. The "Action" part of receiving is not limited to the physical world.

Yes, that's very much true too.

[magickmystik]

Originally Posted by maryelyn

nah, can't go there - i accept no fault, i am faultless.

and don't forget - it's ALWAYS working! loa never sleeps...

i rephrase, "DON"T BLAME THE LAW, it's ALWAYS WORKING, GUARANTEED"
if one doesn't attract what they want, it shows that it is working too. Because people don't attract what they want, they attract what they 'vibrate-ing', lol

how's that?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Brutha

In addition you don't have enough control over your own mind to do scientific experiments with the LoA. Their are no computer that are able to observe your thoughts so you simply can't make an objective experiment.

Theoretically speaking, scientific experiments could be designed to test LOA. You might be interested to know scientific experiments have been done (and some are ongoing) to test the power of prayer.