Uneasiness with LoA

[pokilty]

I've admittedly been on-and-off with practicing LoA, but I feel like whenever I think or read about it, my intuition nags at me. Lately following my intuition has given me greater results than LoA, so I can't dismiss it any more.

In order to successfully use the Law of Attraction, you must first believe that it will work. This is an impasse if you're a skeptic, because skeptics want to try it to believe it. This is what the physical world teaches us - that if I see it then I'll believe it, rather than if I believe it then I'll see it (I understand that some of you will want to say, "no! that's just what you've been taught to think", but bear with me...).

I think what bothers me is that there's only one place I see this "believe then see" ideology appear in the world -- and that's religion. Almost every religion operates by letting you know that God doesn't work for you unless you believe in him first. Now, I'm a strong atheist and I've seen many ways in which following organized religion can be disempowering.

To pull this together, I understand that you must have an open mind and not dismiss anything that could be a possibility. But, if I were to live my life by "believing then seeing", I feel like I would be a totally disconnected fanatic just to try anything. What sets LoA apart that means I should give it a shot any more than believing something else? Maybe I should try believing animals can talk and see where that goes. Or believing that I can see the fourth dimension. If I came to this forum with, "Guess what guys, I tried believing that wiggling my toes can affect the world, and now I can fly!", would everybody start wiggling their toes?

I hope this didn't seem like an attack of any sort, but I can't rid this uneasiness and I'd like to understand why. I feel like in the end it might come down to, "We never guaranteed it's the best belief, it just worked for us", but I'm looking for more insight if it's available

[wolfgang]

LoA seems to attract victims looking for a solution. They are being told you really are the only power of your life, it's all your vibe doing it all and they conclude that means they can control everything. Then, once you look into it, the LoA material will say you must come from being content now, as if you don't need anything. Which removes the original motivation to control everything.

Sitting around meditating on an outcome is just an exercise to help people think they control everything. once they drop the feeling of being a victim to life, they hopefully will allow life to run through them and sort of be life instead of telling or requesting what life should be for them out of being dissatisfied about the current way life is.

I could say this better but maybe this makes enough sense. Or not, if you are an LoA-ist and don't see how it's playing on your wanting out of feeling like a victim to life.

[cinnabar]

I understand some of your reluctance to accept LoA. It requires a bit of "faith" to really work, doesn't it? I was raised as a Christian, but departed from that path in adulthood, as it was very disempowering for me. After my experiences, I see religion as giving one's personal power to a seperate entity (regardless of whether such entities are real). LoA, though it requires belief, has the opposite effect for me. I find it very empowering, because it calls for belief in myself - not some outside source. It helps to to think about what I truly want in life, instead of going through the motions with no direction, and to put my energy forth into the world to call those things into being.

As an athiest, perhaps it would resonate with you to see it as an extension of what you (may) already believe - that you are your own higher power. Just as you have to apply your physical energy to accomplish anything you set out to do, so you can apply your emotional energy and level of thought to focus on what it is that you desire.

LoA seems to attract victims looking for a solution.

LoA is to me the opposite of a victim mentality. Instead of sitting helpless and waiting for an outside solution to a conflict or need, I see it as accepting responsibility for one's own life, just as it is. It encourages us to find joy in ourselves, and seek out those things, places, and people that bring us joy. It's about sending that Love and Joy into the world around us, reaping it in, and sending it back out again.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

[pokilty]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

LoA seems to attract victims looking for a solution.

I'm not really sure what prompted this response, I don't feel victimized in any way. Rather, I'm hoping to try every possibility so I don't become a victim. Life moves on, no matter what. I'd like to steer it

Originally Posted by cinnabar

As an athiest, perhaps it would resonate with you to see it as an extension of what you (may) already believe - that you are your own higher power. Just as you have to apply your physical energy to accomplish anything you set out to do, so you can apply your emotional energy and level of thought to focus on what it is that you desire.

I'll share a quick story that occurred right after my original post. As I was walking out of my building, I was focused on something I've been trying to do lately -- improve my life through direct action combined with visualization. I was repeating to myself the words "Just do it". When I stepped outside, I noticed that the construction workers put little bright pink flags everywhere on the ground, I guess as some kind of indicator for them. What's interesting is that every flag had the words "Just get it done!" on it. It really struck a chord to see those flags all around me.

After that, and reading your response, I'm starting to think maybe I already apply the law unknowingly. If LoA is just to harness emotional energy, I feel like I can already do that on another level without the doubt that comes with associating that energy with a "law". Hmm, I'll have to see...

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by pokilty

I've admittedly been on-and-off with practicing LoA, but I feel like whenever I think or read about it, my intuition nags at me. Lately following my intuition has given me greater results than LoA, so I can't dismiss it any more.

Perhaps it has to do with your belief that the information field we call "reality" can be known but not manipulated?

Originally Posted by pokilty

In order to successfully use the Law of Attraction, you must first believe that it will work. This is an impasse if you're a skeptic, because skeptics want to try it to believe it. This is what the physical world teaches us - that if I see it then I'll believe it, rather than if I believe it then I'll see it (I understand that some of you will want to say, "no! that's just what you've been taught to think", but bear with me...).

I think what bothers me is that there's only one place I see this "believe then see" ideology appear in the world -- and that's religion. Almost every religion operates by letting you know that God doesn't work for you unless you believe in him first. Now, I'm a strong atheist and I've seen many ways in which following organized religion can be disempowering.

Yes, this is true. I think the problem arose because of where the power was placed. If you place your power in something external to yourself, like a god, or a preacher, or guru it is certainly disempowering to you, unless you believe you are on good terms with said god, preacher, or guru. But even then, you are still moving your locus of control away from your essential Self. The wonderful thing now is that we are consciously realizing the power of belief itself. Rather than worship the objects of belief, we can simply acknowledge faith as a power unto itself. Now, this doesn't mean the things we see and experience don't exist. Beliefs may, in fact, create the reality we live in, but its still here. It just means what we perceive as external reality is more like an information field which can be augmented to various degrees based on how artfully we are able to augment our own consciousness. Many people can't control what they think, let alone what they believe. And when you "know" something, whoa boy, stand back, that is one mental rock that ain't gonna move.

Originally Posted by pokilty

To pull this together, I understand that you must have an open mind and not dismiss anything that could be a possibility. But, if I were to live my life by "believing then seeing", I feel like I would be a totally disconnected fanatic just to try anything. What sets LoA apart that means I should give it a shot any more than believing something else? Maybe I should try believing animals can talk and see where that goes. Or believing that I can see the fourth dimension. If I came to this forum with, "Guess what guys, I tried believing that wiggling my toes can affect the world, and now I can fly!", would everybody start wiggling their toes?

Good question. I think a great deal of strange and wondrous things are possible once we master our own psychology. If your perception of reality becomes too divergent from the cultural norm you'll be labeled "crazy". If everyone talked to animals it wouldn't be considered insane. But when a few people do it, here and there (and further claim that said animals are talking back), they are usually labeled crazy, or mentally ill. But that doesn't necessarily mean they are. If you talked with some of them, you might be surprised how lucid and logical they really are. If you are experiencing things out of the norm for this particular reality, but are still grounded enough to know its "different" you are not insane. So go for it, start talking to animals and wiggling your toes while you do it.

Originally Posted by pokilty

I hope this didn't seem like an attack of any sort, but I can't rid this uneasiness and I'd like to understand why. I feel like in the end it might come down to, "We never guaranteed it's the best belief, it just worked for us", but I'm looking for more insight if it's available

You are looking for concrete truth in a vacuum of abstraction, it is perfectly natural to feel uneasy. Our modern culture teaches us to seek with measure and pen, but some things are not physically measurable. Can you measure the purity of my belief? Or the depth of my emotion? Or how aware I am of any given thought? We could say, well if I am experiencing it, I must have in some sense believed in it enough for it to occur. But the only way we can develop that essential faith in belief itself, is to notice the little stuff -- the little synchronicities that occur in response to thought, and gradually work our way up to the essential connection between beliefs and experience. I recommend keeping a journal.

[Acting Like Godot]

Your problem is quite simple. You're moving too fast.

You don't have to. All you have to do is experiment at a pace that you're comfortable with. I do not know your personal circumstances, so I will just give a hypothetical example.

Suppose you have a job. There must be certain aspects about it that you don't like. Perhaps the hours are too long. Perhaps you find a few of your colleagues unfriendly. Perhaps you don't have the right skills and you find your work quite difficult.

You can start by experimenting with small little changes in your thoughts. For example, at the start of your workday, you set aside 5 minutes relaxing quietly and deliberately thinking a few positive thoughts. For example:

"If I work properly today, I should be able to finish by [ ] and go home. And as for my unfriendly colleague John, well, who knows ... Perhaps he has some personal problems and that's why he's so tense all the time. I shouldn't take it personally .... Oh, and that project. It's probably not that difficult, if I break it down step by step, and tackle one problem at a time."

After that, back to work.

If those thoughts are all you feel comfortable thinking, that's fine. There's no need to force yourself to think extremely or bizarrely positive thoughts which in fact you find quite unbelievable or hard to accept. For example, if it doesn't feel "right" to you, you don't have to visualise scenes where John is your best friend, and you finish all your work by 2 pm, and you are the top national expert in your industry. Don't bother.

Just reach for the more-positive thoughts, within the current range of thoughts which you subjectively accept to be "realistic".

Then watch your reality shift in response to your thoughts. Over time, you see that your reality DOES shift in response to your thoughts. This will pique your curiosity. You will wonder whether these shifts are just attributable to your own direct actions which arise consciously or subconsciously out of your own positive thoughts. Or whether there is something more magical at work ....

So go on experimenting. Slowly. Step by step. You'll see ......

[Acting Like Godot]

Also, here is a suggested exercise for you, in reverse engineering. This is just an opportunity for you to get some insights into how LOA might work, if it were true.

Instead of trying to use your thoughts to create changes in your reality, simply consider the things, events and circumstances that already ARE in your reality.

One at a time, randomly choose things, events, circumstances and things which are very "immediate" and "real" in your reality, and which you believe you should know quite well. Spend a minute or two describing this this thing to yourself.

Then ask yourself, "If LOA is true, my own thoughts, attitudes or beliefs must have caused such a thing to appear in my reality. Which of my thoughts, attitudes or beliefs might have caused this to appear?"

Seriously, try it. Just pick one or two things. You may be surprised to discover how many things, events and circumstances in your reality are obviously the result of your thoughts and beliefs, even though you did not, say, take direct action with your own two hands to make these things or events happen. They happened anyway.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by pokilty

I think what bothers me is that there's only one place I see this "believe then see" ideology appear in the world -- and that's religion. Almost every religion operates by letting you know that God doesn't work for you unless you believe in him first. Now, I'm a strong atheist and I've seen many ways in which following organized religion can be disempowering.

As an "atheist" myself (there we are again with the labels! ) who has faced this same crossroads... "ok so I've been spending years learning why it's so important to think for myself and trust only my observations, now I'm studying something else that says I should go back to the old ways of the religion I left behind. I've gone wack-o"....

.... I'll just point out some differences between LOA and RELIGION, as I see it.

LOA is not something that only works if you believe it. It's always on, always working, for everyone. Just like water makes us all wet "good" and "bad" alike, all people get wet in water. There is no judgement or requirement to experience getting soaked in the rain.

What many of us have experienced, is that as we tend to hold the notion that perhaps our thoughts are influencing reality, is that we get more and more evidence to support that. The stronger the belief, the more things seem to happen. I have a feeling most here would suggest that it was the belief that we DIDN'T create our reality, that caused us to not see any connection, between our thoughts and reality.

These are our own, personal experiences. They mean something to us. No one is telling us what our experiences are, and no one can take away from them. There is nothing to sign up for. No moral position to be taken. No right and wrong, use it as you will. It's your choice.

What you have on this board is many people (like myself) who are just fascinated by life and how the universe works, and have had the experience that the more we study those types of subjects, the more of a connection we can feel between ourselves and the universe "out there". It just sort of happens.

All I can say is there is no shame in opening yourself to a new way of looking at life. You are under no obligation to any previous self belief, or set of standards you may have felt you were supposed to follow. This is your life and you have the RIGHT to change your mind at any point. No one is watching, or judging, or keeping score. There are NO RULES to this game. Only strategies we can share with each other. At the end of the day, the only "way" is the one that makes sense and resonates with YOU.

What I'm saying is, if it happens, you'll know.

Life is an experiment. Enjoy it.

[cinnabar]

I'll share a quick story that occurred right after my original post. As I was walking out of my building, I was focused on something I've been trying to do lately -- improve my life through direct action combined with visualization. I was repeating to myself the words "Just do it". When I stepped outside, I noticed that the construction workers put little bright pink flags everywhere on the ground, I guess as some kind of indicator for them. What's interesting is that every flag had the words "Just get it done!" on it. It really struck a chord to see those flags all around me.

After that, and reading your response, I'm starting to think maybe I already apply the law unknowingly. If LoA is just to harness emotional energy, I feel like I can already do that on another level without the doubt that comes with associating that energy with a "law". Hmm, I'll have to see...

So exciting! I do hope you will keep us updated with your findings.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by pokilty

I hope this didn't seem like an attack of any sort, but I can't rid this uneasiness and I'd like to understand why.

Sure. The uneasiness is fear. The fear is that if you start deliberately entertaining certain types of thoughts, they will lead you to act and behave in certain ways, and ultimately those actions will lead to adverse consequences.

Extreme example: You start believing that you can fly. You step off the edge of a tall building. You fall straight down and kill yourself.

Moderate example: You start believing that you could make a lot of money pursuing a career in what you really love (eg art or music). You quit your stable, boring job to become an artist / musician. Two years later, you are a down-&-out, broke and homeless artist / musician.

That is your uneasiness. As I said, all you have to do is move slowly. Keep ratcheting the thoughts upward, one step at a time, one day at a time. As reality responds - and as you see that it really does respond - you will be able to feel more accurately the scope of your current abilities of conscious creation.

And as you use them more and more, they will expand. Remember, they never have to expand faster than you want them to.

[Lena Carpenter]

Acting Like Godot already made this suggestion, but I wanted to chime in anyway. You don't have to believe in the Law of Attraction to work because it doesn't fail. Look at what you attracted in your life already and try to follow how that resulted from your thoughts and believes. Of course, you can also examine areas of your life, that are working for you, and see how your attitudes about these things affected what is in your physical experience.

Your question seems to be: How do I believe that things I'm working on attracting will come to me? You want to expect these things to come, but what if you have doubts? I think the answer here is to start small, to feel better about things you are attracting. For instance, you can start feeling hopeful that things you want will come. Then as you start to associate better feeling thoughts with the subject, you can start feeling emotions even higher on the emotional scale. Steve wrote an article about the emotional scale. He also wrote an article about how, in order to attract what you want, you must imagine what it would be like if you already had it. I believe it was about getting comfortable thinking about having larger sums of money. His suggestion was that you wouldn't be excited about having the sum you want, if it was a usual experience for you.

I also highly recommend Esther and Jerry Hicks' new book, Money and the Law of Attraction. I just finished reading it and it blew me away!

[themaster]

I'm a all-in or nothing kind of guy.. meaning either I delve deeply or I don't bother.. so to me when you embrace the idea of LOA I would say..

You have to embrace strong ideas of..
- I create my own reality.. and yah that means I allowed or manifested that traffic ticket or rape or thievery or whatever negative/positive circumstance(s)
- Hitler killed the jews through allowing and through yes LOA
- Fringe things such as Multiple Personality Disorder, Past Lives, UFO's, Ghosts and various weird things going on..

The bottom line is if you’re a small taster of LOA.. you’re going to work your way up to these ideas eventually (well obviously not all will but those seeking more knowledge and understanding yes they will.. they will have the questions.. and answers are provided in this "new age" religion)

Please understand that I'm one of the few that goes around and calls.. new age/loa a religion.. I come from a scientist/atheist background and I usually describe a religion as something that has beliefs about life after death.. well guess what if you delve deep enough yep.. new age has answers about the afterlife..

So anyway on to the real point.. cause for some reason I just wanted to type this other stuff out

Originally Posted by cylon

.... I'll just point out some differences between LOA and RELIGION, as I see it.

Similarities between new age and other Religions
- Sect phenomena (meaning like the Christian religion whatever has jews, catholics whatever.. so does new age in a way form into different sect teachings)
- Life after death beliefs
- All religions have what I call stumbling blocks in this.. I would say.. in Christianity.. if your life is going wrong you need to ask for forgiveness/pray.. in LOA if things aren’t going well.. start with “beliefs”

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by themaster

I come from a scientist/atheist background and I usually describe a religion as something that has beliefs about life after death..

I thought you might be interested to read this recent BBC article about doctors at 25 US and UK hospitals studying the possibility of life after death. The study is coordinated by the Southampton University.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by pokilty

I think what bothers me is that there's only one place I see this "believe then see" ideology appear in the world -- and that's religion.

Actually this concept of "believe, then see" shows up in many different ways outside religion, and outside LOA.

For example, it appears in psychology & neuroscience. Some people are told that they will be shown a picture of X. Some people are told that they will be shown a picture of Y. Then they are all shown the same picture. The people in the first group all insist that they see X in the picture, but the people in the second group all insist that they see Y.



It's all about the brain perceiving what it thinks is there. And how it fails to perceive what it thinks should not be there.

In the same way, the kind of thoughts you think, gears you towards perceiving or not perceiving the existence of certain things in your reality, or attributing certain types of meanings, when such things occur. That's one way that the LOA works, and this way, while not at all an adequate explanation for how the LOA works, should not in itself be underestimated.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

LoA seems to attract victims looking for a solution.

I stumbled on LOA, from quite a different angle. I was an ambitious, successful, confident, hardworking guy. Not at all the kind of person you might typically regard as a "victim".

When I first discovered the LOA, I didn't seek to use it to repair problems. I sought to use it to become better in the ways that I was already good; and have more and do more of the good things that were already in my life.

Well, it worked. My string of personal successes just grew and grew. But in many ways, I am still the same old guy. I am still ambitious, successful and confident.

But not so hardworking any more, except with my thoughts. I think, and a lot of good stuff starts happening on its own and popping into my universe.

Action is severely overrated.

In fact, I am constantly reminding myself to slow down; worry less; stop fidgeting; stop hurrying around and trying to do this or that. Most of that kind of action is unnecessary.

Simply stay calm; think alpha; set your intentions; and go about your tasks peacefully. The universe will organise the rest.

[pokilty]

Ah there's tons of great responses here, thanks everybody! I'd like to comment on a few that struck me.

Originally Posted by Anagogy

... I think the problem arose because of where the power was placed. If you place your power in something external to yourself, like a god, or a preacher, or guru it is certainly disempowering to you, unless you believe you are on good terms with said god, preacher, or guru. ... The wonderful thing now is that we are consciously realizing the power of belief itself. ...

This is a great distinction between LoA and religion that I didn't make. It makes sense that religion tries to take faith one step further, when faith itself might be the "ultimate power".

Originally Posted by Anagogy

You are looking for concrete truth in a vacuum of abstraction, it is perfectly natural to feel uneasy. ...

I'm glad to know it's not unusual!

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Your problem is quite simple. You're moving too fast. ... Just reach for the more-positive thoughts, within the current range of thoughts which you subjectively accept to be "realistic". ...

You're right, I'm trying to take big steps because I feel like it will prove something. From now on I'll take small steps that I could more easily believe in, then find the correlations between my thoughts and reality.

Originally Posted by cylon

... I'll just point out some differences between LOA and RELIGION, as I see it ... LOA is not something that only works if you believe it. It's always on, always working, for everyone. Just like water makes us all wet "good" and "bad" alike, all people get wet in water. There is no judgement or requirement to experience getting soaked in the rain.

I really appreciate that insight, it's easy to forget sometimes.

I hate to seem like I'm nitpicking since I get the gist of what you're saying, but I don't think the analogy you gave helps me find differences between LoA and religion. If I were a religious person, I would most likely argue that God is always with us whether we want him to be or not. That gives me a creepy suspicion that LoA and religion are alike again. But, like I said, I'm just nitpicking

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Sure. The uneasiness is fear. The fear is that if you start deliberately entertaining certain types of thoughts, they will lead you to act and behave in certain ways, and ultimately those actions will lead to adverse consequences.

I don't think the uneasiness is fear of misuse of my thoughts, it's more like fear of the unknown. I've entertained the idea that thoughts can affect reality for a while now, and I haven't found any reason not to believe it yet. This post is really just my intuition pushing me a little further to pick out the weeds that grow after thinking on the subject too long

But, I will certainly follow your advice on taking it slower. I can imagine how skeptical I would be if I tried to study quantum physics before I had any basis in much simpler mechanical physics.

Originally Posted by Lena Carpenter

... I think the answer here is to start small, to feel better about things you are attracting. For instance, you can start feeling hopeful that things you want will come. Then as you start to associate better feeling thoughts with the subject, you can start feeling emotions even higher on the emotional scale. ...

Thanks for tackling my question straight on. It seems like what you are suggesting is certainly the route I have to take now

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

For example, it appears in psychology & neuroscience. Some people are told that they will be shown a picture of X. Some people are told that they will be shown a picture of Y. Then they are all shown the same picture. The people in the first group all insist that they see X in the picture, but the people in the second group all insist that they see Y.

Aha! That's a great example, thanks. I can understand how the beliefs of the people in this experiment precede what they actually see. For me, the difference between this and LoA is that their beliefs were derived from many decades of seeing familiar shapes of human faces, whereas LoA has little direct correlation that I've actively noticed. Of course, that completely describes why I should try your "reverse engineering" experiment, so I just turned everything back on me

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I thought you might be interested to read this recent BBC article about doctors at 25 US and UK hospitals studying the possibility of life after death. The study is coordinated by the Southampton University.

Yes, that's nice..

I heard of a better method of proving LOA myself.. or in this case a better method of proving multiple universes coming from bashar.. that involved scientific instruments (cause some of us our big into that)

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by pokilty

I'll share a quick story that occurred right after my original post. As I was walking out of my building, I was focused on something I've been trying to do lately -- improve my life through direct action combined with visualization. I was repeating to myself the words "Just do it". When I stepped outside, I noticed that the construction workers put little bright pink flags everywhere on the ground, I guess as some kind of indicator for them. What's interesting is that every flag had the words "Just get it done!" on it. It really struck a chord to see those flags all around me.

Now that's a definite hit! Feels good, does it not? I think those are ways you're being shown you're on the right track. Good for you.

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Your problem is quite simple. You're moving too fast.
You don't have to. All you have to do is experiment at a pace that you're comfortable with.

Thanks very much. I was reading an article yesterday about "stopping seeking" in order to find what you need. It's like, you need to push off the side of the pool to get going, but after that you slack off the thrust and let the water carry you. (I know, not a perfect analogy but it's a quickie...).

Also congratulations on fulfilling your community sevice by teaching. I hope it gives you satisfaction.

[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by pokilty

I've admittedly been on-and-off with practicing LoA, but I feel like whenever I think or read about it, my intuition nags at me. Lately following my intuition has given me greater results than LoA, so I can't dismiss it any more.

In order to successfully use the Law of Attraction, you must first believe that it will work. This is an impasse if you're a skeptic, because skeptics want to try it to believe it. This is what the physical world teaches us - that if I see it then I'll believe it, rather than if I believe it then I'll see it (I understand that some of you will want to say, "no! that's just what you've been taught to think", but bear with me...).

I think what bothers me is that there's only one place I see this "believe then see" ideology appear in the world -- and that's religion. Almost every religion operates by letting you know that God doesn't work for you unless you believe in him first. Now, I'm a strong atheist and I've seen many ways in which following organized religion can be disempowering.

To pull this together, I understand that you must have an open mind and not dismiss anything that could be a possibility. But, if I were to live my life by "believing then seeing", I feel like I would be a totally disconnected fanatic just to try anything. What sets LoA apart that means I should give it a shot any more than believing something else? Maybe I should try believing animals can talk and see where that goes. Or believing that I can see the fourth dimension. If I came to this forum with, "Guess what guys, I tried believing that wiggling my toes can affect the world, and now I can fly!", would everybody start wiggling their toes?

I hope this didn't seem like an attack of any sort, but I can't rid this uneasiness and I'd like to understand why. I feel like in the end it might come down to, "We never guaranteed it's the best belief, it just worked for us", but I'm looking for more insight if it's available

I have a different take, which is that the maleability of external reality is much less than is being posed here by the believers, if they believe in external reality at all, which some do not seem to. What I believe is very maleable is internal reality, which means that as you begin to put some effort into directing external affairs, your internal mental reality changes in subtle but powerful ways, with the general result that you now think you are actually creating (external, or 'real' as some people call it) 'reality'.

In that sense I do see LoA as very much a religion, which as you observe, is based on faith itself rather than using faith as some kind of vehicle to getting across a particular religious doctrine. However, looking at this more closely, there are two things to observe: 1) LoA does have all sorts of doctrine, much of which has been presented here, and much more of which you can find in books and on the net. It is very similar to religions, old and new, 2) it is a kind of meta-religion, as regards that point about faith causing reality, as observed already.

Examples of optical illusions and other mistakes of comprehension have been used as an 'insight' into how our mind changes reality. However, if you compare this with the scheme I'm setting out here, you will hopefully see that it demonstrates how our beliefs change our beliefs - internal reality - not external. The picture doesn't change. It has an objective reality. If it didn't, people couldn't post it on the internet and confuse you about its implications.

It is because of this maleability of our internal model of reality, our vulnerability to self-delusion, that we must doubt our 'intuitions' and, if there is a method, check them out. One method people use, tried and tested, is all the empirical observation and peer-review process of science. Science, if you want to investigate these effects more, has a great deal to say about them (in the field of psychology, I mean, rather than quantum mechanics, in case anyone's confused).

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by cinnabar

LoA is to me the opposite of a victim mentality. Instead of sitting helpless and waiting for an outside solution to a conflict or need, I see it as accepting responsibility for one's own life, just as it is. It encourages us to find joy in ourselves, and seek out those things, places, and people that bring us joy. It's about sending that Love and Joy into the world around us, reaping it in, and sending it back out again.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

Because LoA is opposite of the victim mentality - people with that mentality look to it as a solution. I think you are agreeing with me.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by pokilty

I'm not really sure what prompted this response, I don't feel victimized in any way. Rather, I'm hoping to try every possibility so I don't become a victim. Life moves on, no matter what. I'd like to steer it

I'm not saying people become victims by using LoA. I'm saying if you think life sucks, then LoA ideas probably help.

If you want to steer it - you are thinking you can control life. That may feel empowering. But to what point? And then to use LoA you are to be content now - which implies non-steering or non-control of life.

After that, and reading your response, I'm starting to think maybe I already apply the law unknowingly. If LoA is just to harness emotional energy, I feel like I can already do that on another level without the doubt that comes with associating that energy with a "law". Hmm, I'll have to see...

I think any ideas or thoughts of having LoA respond to our imagination may be more like precognition. The "effort" of sitting and imagining something is really us picking up on something that is to be - something that is already in the works. It is not our little brain mass generating it - our brains and emotions are responding to life and even the things we think we are controlling or exerting free will over or having decisions about are part of life and our bodies and brains are picking up what life is. It's not an external force that's not us, like giving it up to an external God being, but it is us in the grander sense.

Just an alternate possible viewpoint.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I stumbled on LOA, from quite a different angle. I was an ambitious, successful, confident, hardworking guy. Not at all the kind of person you might typically regard as a "victim".

When I first discovered the LOA, I didn't seek to use it to repair problems. I sought to use it to become better in the ways that I was already good; and have more and do more of the good things that were already in my life.

Well, it worked. My string of personal successes just grew and grew. But in many ways, I am still the same old guy. I am still ambitious, successful and confident.

I would not say everyone that uses LoA is recovering from victim-hood. And you seem to have the present content state of mind that LoA says is a prerequisite to having your life unfold as you desire. I do wonder, for you, if it feels like you aren't so much doing the attracting but more that you are stepping through how you kind of know it to be. lol. I have little idea if that makes any sense.

But not so hardworking any more, except with my thoughts. I think, and a lot of good stuff starts happening on its own and popping into my universe.

Action is severely overrated.

It does sound like less effort and more just allowing what will be - and what will be is what you set out to have/experience in this life. I don't know when it is that we project what we have/experience in life. Sometimes I don't think it's as mailable as we are being told - at least from our 3d perspectives, it all seems to run a coarse. And seeing that coarse is knowing you asked or designed it all at some point and now are riding it out the best you can - complaints and all, wanting improvements, thinking we control everything in reality.

It's cool you have focused and made things better. It's inspiring. I do wonder how to avoid judging my current life situation while wishing for something better. It almost seems, to me, that to wish for something better is exactly the same as judging what is now, as not good enough (is that victim thinking?)

Simply stay calm; think alpha; set your intentions; and go about your tasks peacefully. The universe will organise the rest.

Or the universe is unfolding exactly as it set out to do and our intentions are precognitions of the good stuff that's already on it's way.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by pokilty

I really appreciate that insight, it's easy to forget sometimes.

I hate to seem like I'm nitpicking since I get the gist of what you're saying, but I don't think the analogy you gave helps me find differences between LoA and religion. If I were a religious person, I would most likely argue that God is always with us whether we want him to be or not. That gives me a creepy suspicion that LoA and religion are alike again. But, like I said, I'm just nitpicking

It's ok. You're a manifestation of my own consciousness which for some reason I have drawn into my awareness to further clarify my own take on this issue, so we are both benefiting from this.

You AREN'T that religious person though. You're you. And what we are talking about is the way you feel and think about this issue, not a hypothetical person. If someone tells you of their own subjective experience, you can believe them or not, but I don't think they have the power to translate that into your experience. Likewise, whatever experience you have, you cannot make me experience it either.

So when people are saying "LOA works, this and that happened", you have no choice but to take it at face value or reject it.

But it's about YOUR OWN experiences. And what I have learned, is that this stuff works best when you're happy and relaxed. My suggestion would be to focus on that and just drop LOA for awhile.

I personally don't see any benefit to a belief system that causes pain and hardship. That IS one difference between religion and LOA. There's no LOA overlord who is threatening you with eternal damnation if you choose not to adopt this belief.

All you can do is experiment in your own life. That's another difference. You CAN doubt. You CAN say "I don't think this is real. Show me more evidence. I DEMAND EVIDENCE!" Then watch for that evidence like a hawk. Religion doesn't give you this option.

Finally, If LOA is NOT making you feel excited, hopeful, but confused and doubtful, then those are moments of your life you don't get back. They are too valuable. My advice would be to find whatever it is that can help you to feel at peace. Considering that this is probably the best way to experience LOA ANYWAY, you can't lose by just focusing on feeling good in life.

The rest is just details.

[cylon]

Just thought I'd make a broader point here about some of the other responses in this thread, specifically, about the similarity between LOA and religion, new age, life after death, etc.:

While there are plenty of resources on LOA (like this forum, and the Abraham material, which is my personal favorite) there is no set of beliefs that you HAVE TO believe. If you don't believe in life after death, drop it. If you don't believe in spirits or channeling, drop those too. Drop or add as you see fit. As our own personal Jesus we have the freedom to form our own world-view.

Really, it's the belief systems of the past, where most people were terrified into adopting their local religion, where you get this notion of knowledge and truth coming from OUTSIDE of you. "Well this person wrote a book on LOA and said xzy, and that's just bogus because clearly we all know abc" well that's THEM. That's the conclusion they made with their own life experience.

Get busy with your experience, your own experiments. Nothing is fun about having a belief system wrapped up in a nice bow that you take at face value. Tear off the wrapping paper, take the thing out of the box, get out your screwdriver, take it apart, put it back together and see if it still works, or see if you can make it do something you didn't think it was supposed to do. Make it your OWN.

[pokilty]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

... What I believe is very maleable is internal reality, which means that as you begin to put some effort into directing external affairs, your internal mental reality changes in subtle but powerful ways, with the general result that you now think you are actually creating (external, or 'real' as some people call it) 'reality'. ... It is because of this maleability of our internal model of reality, our vulnerability to self-delusion, that we must doubt our 'intuitions' and, if there is a method, check them out. ....

This explanation makes a lot of sense to me, and it pleases my intuition, which is definitely a good feeling. I tend to lean toward a "subjective reality" interpretation, and I think what you say here hits that very well

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I think any ideas or thoughts of having LoA respond to our imagination may be more like precognition. The "effort" of sitting and imagining something is really us picking up on something that is to be - something that is already in the works. It is not our little brain mass generating it - our brains and emotions are responding to life and even the things we think we are controlling or exerting free will over or having decisions about are part of life and our bodies and brains are picking up what life is. It's not an external force that's not us, like giving it up to an external God being, but it is us in the grander sense. ...

I think what you're saying here is similar to what John Freestone is saying, which is that the power of LoA affects our perception of reality rather than reality itself. That is certainly different to me than religion, because religion attempts to explain reality absolutely.

Originally Posted by cylon

Finally, If LOA is NOT making you feel excited, hopeful, but confused and doubtful, then those are moments of your life you don't get back. They are too valuable. My advice would be to find whatever it is that can help you to feel at peace. Considering that this is probably the best way to experience LOA ANYWAY, you can't lose by just focusing on feeling good in life.

Thank you, I think I was waiting to hear that. I do want to try LoA a bit longer since after reading these responses I feel like I have more direction than I did before. But, there are certainly things I have been trying with my life lately that have produced reliable results that I'll return to soon.

Originally Posted by cylon

Get busy with your experience, your own experiments. Nothing is fun about having a belief system wrapped up in a nice bow that you take at face value. Tear off the wrapping paper, take the thing out of the box, get out your screwdriver, take it apart, put it back together and see if it still works, or see if you can make it do something you didn't think it was supposed to do. Make it your OWN.

This is really powerful, I love the attitude. It's what I'm aiming for right now.

---

Actually, I hope you guys don't mind if I go a little off topic, but I'd like to explain what I mean when I said that I can find energy from other things. I realized that I was becoming one of those who spends countless hours reading about personal productivity, but never actually doing it - so I knew I had to change. Right now, the biggest thought pattern I've been trying is a threefold way to live my life that I found really improves areas I've been having trouble in:

(1) Use intuition -- Whenever I'm unsure about what I should be doing, or how I should behave, I just use my intuition rather than my logic. It's a big change for me, since I've trusted my logic and shut out my intuition my whole life, but it's so far proven to be much MORE reliable than my logic.

(2) Just do it -- This attitude really packs a punch for me. It's not a question, it's not worrying, it's a command. And I've found that almost all my regrets stem from not "doing it".

(3) Visualization -- Sometimes I get into a really bad slump where saying "just do it" to myself doesn't cut it. That's where I use visualization as a tool to remind myself of the long term goals, big picture and rewards. It's a great way to get motivated and back on track with the plan

Some examples of what I've achieved lately are going to the gym, meeting many new people, connecting with old friends on a deeper level, speaking out when I normally wouldn't, and generally feeling more confident in myself instead of relying on the social situation. It's also made me more productive since I get things done, and it seems to have a feedback-loop of searching for better ways to do things, which in turns prompts me to improve the model even further.

The results seem as magical as what I hear about LoA, which is what prompted me to revisit this again. I wonder if there's a connection somewhere Right now I feel like LoA might be a suitable replacement for visualization, since thoughts in LoA are perceived to be inevitable, whereas in visualization the thoughts are just desirable.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

It's cool you have focused and made things better. It's inspiring. I do wonder how to avoid judging my current life situation while wishing for something better. It almost seems, to me, that to wish for something better is exactly the same as judging what is now, as not good enough (is that victim thinking?)

Well. maybe the following perspective will help. Your current life situation is impermanent. It's always changing. It does not inherently exist. At any given moment, its existence depends on numerous conditions, which in turn depend on numerous other conditions. Also, a small change in any one thing has the potential to cause vast changes, because of the ripple effect.

It's like the butterfly effect in chaos theory - one flap of a butterfly's wing in a particular direction can mathematically lead to a chain of events that eventually result in a hurricane on the other side of the planet.

Therefore when you intend for something better, it does not necessarily follow that that you are judging your current life situation negatively. Instead you are acknowledging that your life situation is endlessly changing. You can't hold it constant anyway, unless you cease to have thought.

The alternative therefore is to guide, control and direct your thoughts, such that the changes are positive and pleasing to yourself. And why do your thoughts have such vast power? Because they are like the butterfly's wing.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by pokilty

I think what you're saying here is similar to what John Freestone is saying, which is that the power of LoA affects our perception of reality rather than reality itself.

You may investigate that theory for yourself. I find it a little tedious but the method is straightforward enough. Firstly, choose a few areas of your life where you would like to try using the LOA. For example, your money or your health or your career.

In these areas, define what "objective reality" means to you. Identify what you would regard as objective criteria, standards or instruments for measuring that "objective reality".

For example, perhaps you would accept some or all of the following as sufficiently "objective" criteria of the reality of your financial situation: (1) the credit balance of your bank account; (2) the size of your monthly salary, (3) the aggregate amount of all your outstanding debt.

And perhaps you would accept some or all of the following as sufficiently "objective" criteria of your health status: (1) the time it takes for you to jog three miles;(2) your weight, in kilograms; (3) the heaviest weight you can benchpress in the gym. And so on.

And so on. Then describe your current objective reality in writing. Eg:

"As of [date], I have $X in my bank account; I am earning $Y per month; I owe $Z on my mortgage and credit cards. I timed myself and it took me [ ] minutes [ ] seconds to run from Point C to Point D. I currently weigh E kg and I can benchpress F kg in the gym."

Then put away your written record in a safe place. Go apply your LOA for six months. Then re-measure your reality again, using the same criteria and standards which you have already considered to be objective. Compare to your written record.

Then you will know whether your "objective reality" has changed, or merely your perception of it.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Or the universe is unfolding exactly as it set out to do and our intentions are precognitions of the good stuff that's already on it's way.

That's exactly what I think.

[John Freestone]

That's a very good point ALG has made, and when I re-read my own contribution to this thread I saw a glaring omission - or rather, I was just plain wrong, I think. I said that our beliefs just affect our beliefs, not objective reality, and of course, that's quite wrong. I suppose I must have taken it as read that our thoughts affect reality. ALG's kind of experiment is clearly a valid test of objective changes, as long as thoughts don't change beliefs so much that we actually misinterpret results, unwittingly get our original record of reality out of its envelope and alter it, pretending to ourselves we didn't do that! These sorts of cheats would seem silly even to mention, but it's worth noting the philosophical possibility, and, in more complex situations, for instance once someone believes they are psychic and starts trying to prove it to themselves or other people, those kinds of mental splits are, apparently, quite common, explaining why an endless queue of hopefuls try to prove to science some psi ability and don't believe the mathematical proof that they were imagining it.

It seems clear, then, that when we change reality by our thoughts, beliefs and attitudes, as you are learning to do, pokilty, it is through natural means, rather than supernatural. However, another part of what's missing from my earlier post is how powerful our unconscious mental processes are, and I think this explains a lot of the power of LoA. You describe this change very powerfully when you say you're using your intuition instead of logic. Our conscious minds are a bit like the monitors of our computers - there are words appearing slowly in front of my now, but somewhere further below, calculations are happening at an incredible speed. Our unconscious mental processes as also incredibly fast and complex, and only a certain number of observations or results get popped up into awareness. Meanwhile, we type, or walk, and breathe, etc., etc., without thinking about all the mass of information that needs processing to do those things.

It's important not to take the analogy too far. In humans, one common problem seems to be when we try to control objective reality too deliberately, too minutely, with too much analysis: the problem you describe as using logic instead of intuition. Somehow, it seems, we inhibit and sabotage the subconscious process that could have provided a useful solution intuitively - just popped it into our heads from 'nowhere'. This self-sabotage is commonly related to states of anxiety, particularly that low-ish level of chronic anxiety (chronic meaning extended in time), in which a person thinks too much that they might make mistakes, wrong decisions, etc., and so spends a lot of time analysing, worrying about problems. As you are discovering, if you force yourself through this and in some way learn to trust the intuitively popped answers, things begin to run more smoothly. I've been there. It's incredibly liberating. I used to be a dreadful worrier.

The bits of LoA that I dislike are the suggestions that there's something supernatural about any of these effects. Objective experiments will, I'm fairly confident, demonstrate just as effectively that we can't bend spoons with our minds or any of that woo nonsense. If wolfgang was referring to our unconscious brain power, then I'm in agreement, but this passage could be taken the other, mystical, way: "The "effort" of sitting and imagining something is really us picking up on something that is to be - something that is already in the works.". I don't believe in clairvoyance, but we may be subconsciously aware of patterns in the past and present that naturally predict the likelihood of a certain event taking place (say, a stock market crash), while our logical, conscious minds may be thinking "Nah, that seems a bit far fetched".

So while I have some confidence that sitting meditating on changing your body weight, for instance, may well translate into objectively measured results, and that meditating on the idea might translate into actual physical changes, the meditating and beliefs are only triggers to those physiological changes that normally change people's weight. Others may believe that such effects happen on some supernatural plane of super-reality, or that they are warping objective reality with their great mental powers, or that the whole idea of objective reality it brought into question. I believe that weight change would be due to the usual physical causes - a balance between energy intake and expenditure. LoA doesn't bend the LoP (Laws of Physics).

People, however, do get sucked into mystical superstitions by the propagating of such myths, for which there is no scientific evidence. In that way, the Secret, or LoA or whatever, can be sold as a quasi-religious philosophy by its gurus, and people can gradually lose the use of their logic altogether. We need that too sometimes. Intuition can be very wrong. People are 'victims' of irrational belief systems like the LoA. There are a lot of them posting here. It seems that once they open their minds, they don't quite know when to stop.

ALG, I'm not sure why you posted a link to something about a study into NDE. Does it have any relevance to the LoA? It strikes me as an example of over-inclusiveness on these matters - once we're supernatural beings, we can just say yes to any old woo - and then one supernatural idea can be quoted as backing up any other. Besides, I'll make a prediction. When the study is finished, it won't demonstrate that people having NDEs can see pictures up at a height no-one can from floor level. Furthermore, it clearly cannnot demonstrate that scientifically according to strict protocols, unless I'm unaware of some very clever details of security. The experimental conditions leave a lot of room for people cheating. I haven't studied it in detail, but I'm sure one of the objections will be that it is in no way a double-blind controlled trial, on which our reasonably confident knowledge of the world rests.