Uneasiness with LoA

[Acting Like Godot]

Most people who are curious about the LOA are curious about it from a highly practical perspective. They wonder whether it can help them lose weight; earn more money; find a better job; improve their relationships; play better tennis, and so on.

In summary, they wonder whether the LOA can help them solve their problems, achieve their goals and generally create a more satisfying, fulfilling or pleasing life for themselves.

Based on my personal experience, I know that the LOA can. It is an immensely powerful tool, for all those purposes. That is why I encourage people to give it a try.

If you are like most other people and your LOA perspective is highly practical, then it will not be very important for you to know how exactly the LOA operates. What will be important to you is establishing whether it does work, and if so, how you can use it to consistently achieve your desired outcomes.

By analogy, I do not really know how a car works. I am neither an engineer nor a mechanic. Neither do I really know how a computer works. I am not an IT professional. What is more important to me is that I do know how to drive a car so that I can get from Point A to Point B; and I do know how to use a computer such that I can create, store and print my documents.

Similarly, the LOA may work by "natural" means. Or it may work by "supernatural" means. Perhaps sometimes it works by natural means, and sometimes it works by supernatural means, and sometimes a combination of both. It also depends on what is meant by "natural" or by "supernatural", because, depending on what is meant, I might be equally happy to say,"The LOA works in a 100% natural way" or "The LOA works in a 100% supernatural way."

Whatever. The point is - it works.

(Or if you have not yet come to know that it works, well, that is the point which you are seeking to test).

------------------

Now, in my opinion, the direct effect of LOA on reality goes beyond its effect on your own actions, speech, emotions, mental abilities and physical body. I further believe that you only disadvantage yourself, if you believe that the effect of LOA on reality is strictly confined to those sorts of things.

Nevertheless this disadvantage is not necessarily severe. This is simply because even if you believe that the LOA can directly improve only your immediate self, that is already a very great thing. And that's because the potential applications are already quite numerous. A few hundred examples are listed here <---- you probably won't finish exploring even half of these, in this lifetime.

Happy thinking!

[John Freestone]

Hi ALG. I assume that post was addressing me. I respect your right to your opinion. I'm presenting a different one.

You end with "Happy thinking!", after a link to examples of applications of the loa. I have not followed the link. I understand that believing in the loa will be likely to give some positive results. I have read many examples you've sent me to read about before of the type. If you want me to say "You're right, ALG, LoA definitely works!" I'm fine by that, as long as it's understood that a) I don't believe in 'supernatural' explanations for those effects, b) I consider it very important that people understand as much as they can about how those effects do happen, because not understanding that could potentially lead to some ill effects, and, c) it is good generally for us to think, learn and investigate life and find real reasons and real philosophies, rather than just say "if it works, that's fine by me". Also, I have to say that often 'it' doesn't work at all. Many of the links you've sent me to look at before have loads of natural explanations, and many can be pure chance, interpreted after the event as having been caused by loa.

I'm sure, also that you're right when you say that a lot of people who use the loa use it in a practical way and aren't bothered to understand the physical reality and biology and psychology behind it. That is also their (and your) right. I am urging people not to do that, but hoping they will think and learn.

You see, one of the OP's points was whether loa is a religion or not, or how it compared. Now, I could say with as much confidence as I have about loa that praying to Jesus will also cause some positive results, or that believing you are Jesus might, or that praying to the Aliens on another planet, who are much wiser and grander than us lowly creatures down here, also might cause some positive changes in a person's life, but - and this is the crucial part - I still care about whether people are getting clearer in their understanding, more enlightened, or fooled by whatever successes they may have into believing the causal relationship preached to them (or offered to them as encouragement to 'try it and see', by the likes of your good self).

Often the person trying such a philosophy does so because they feel stuck or are not as efficient or successful as they'd like to be, or anywhere from a mild form of that to complete inability to get anything done, and whatever technique they try gives them confidence, it breaks through the viscious cycle of worry and self-doubt and allows them to feel like they're a winner long enough to try doing something practical in the world. Hence, they get somewhere they didn't before. This may be just one important way that such philsophies (possibly quite untrue but practically useful) get taken on. Now, do you want people to stay stuck with that superstitious worldview just because it got them out of a rut?

There is virtually no difference between the LoA and other forms of woo, once you DO understand the psychology behind such effects. That psychology is, in my view, the correct explanation for the 'power' of prayer, meditation, loa self-talk, and a whole host of other bits of woo. Yes, we can argue for hands-on use of these techniques without bothering with why they sometimes work, but that's accepting ignorance and laziness (and, one could argue, a shallow greed, if all a person is interested in is results they want, and to hell with understanding the world!).

Besides, ignorant false views of the world don't always work out well, precisely because the person depending on them is following flawed logic, and there are quite a lot of examples of woo beliefs causing harm. People believe that if they just pray harder, the lump will go away. Later, they're rushed into hospital and the doctor says it's too late to operate. If they'd come sooner, the cancer could have been removed and the person could have enjoyed a long life. People believe that if they just create the right frame of mind and gamble again, this time the universe will reward them with a big jackpot. People believe endless things that rationality and science not only demonstrate are superstitions, but ALSO explain (and DEMONSTRATE EXPERIMENTALLY!) the psychological reasons why those superstitions become trusted.

So, advise people to try the LoA if you like. Just, please, don't argue that the philosophical or physical reality of how it works doesn't matter to people as long as it works, and at the same time wish me 'happy thinking'. The first position is an argument to stay dumb and have faith. In that sense, loa is no different from other religions that ask similar things.

In the middle of this discussion you posted a link to a sloppy experiment on out of body experiences. Can you explain why?

[Kate Saltfleet]

Originally Posted by cylon

Get busy with your experience, your own experiments. Nothing is fun about having a belief system wrapped up in a nice bow that you take at face value. Tear off the wrapping paper, take the thing out of the box, get out your screwdriver, take it apart, put it back together and see if it still works, or see if you can make it do something you didn't think it was supposed to do. Make it your OWN.

Nothing beats living your own life and thinking for yourself. Ask lots of questions, and be cautious of any belief system claiming to be the one true way and requiring you to switch off your critical faculties.

I wrote a blog post called An alternative to the Law of Attraction which you may be interested in.

[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

A few hundred examples are listed here <---- you probably won't finish exploring even half of these, in this lifetime.

Now I've had a look, I see this is just a site selling hypnosis recordings, and the few hundred applications are the types of problem each recording is supposed to cure the purchaser of. You on the affiliate program? They could easily multiply their profits by just refining their naming procedure. We could have a hypnotherapy recordings for healing accidental knife-cuts on the right index finger (happening in January)...

The problem with hypnosis (or LoA self-hypnosis) is that it's quite possible that it just works in the same way placebo does - if you believe it, then it might have a chance of working for you on some issues. Suggestion. That is what I think.

There are generally two schools of thought about hypnosis, one saying that this is how it works, simple suggestion, others saying that a special psychological state allows access to unusual mental powers of self-healing, etc. There's an interesting article about it here the quackometer: Look Into My Lies, Not Around My Lies

The same idea arises that one can just shrug and say it probably works if I believe it, and I'll believe it as much as I can so it works. I guess our response will depend on how much we value understanding what's really going on.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

The problem with hypnosis (or LoA self-hypnosis) is that it's quite possible that it just works in the same way placebo does - if you believe it, then it might have a chance of working for you on some issues.

LOL. Placebo is definitely one way that the LOA works. Not the only way, but definitely one way.

A man is ill, verifiably ill. Doctor gives a sugar pill and says it will definitely cure him. Man takes the pill and feels much better. Physiological signs are observable - blood pressure goes down; swelling disappears etc. The man believed, and therefore was healed.

Do we know how that really happened? Do we know what caused it? Sure - the man's belief. Is this natural? Supernatural? Who cares. The point is, the man is cured.

There are generally two schools of thought about hypnosis, one saying that this is how it works, simple suggestion, others saying that a special psychological state allows access to unusual mental powers of self-healing, etc. There's an interesting article about it here the quackometer: Look Into My Lies, Not Around My Lies

Sorry, John. I do not read such websites. On the topic of hypnosis, I only refer to studies done by proper universities and scientists such as Harvard.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

So, advise people to try the LoA if you like. Just, please, don't argue that the philosophical or physical reality of how it works doesn't matter to people as long as it works

Then stop using your computer, John. Stop driving your car too.

In the middle of this discussion you posted a link to a sloppy experiment on out of body experiences. Can you explain why?

Try reading the post I was responding to.

[Acting Like Godot]

I was just discussing hypnosis on another Internet forum. This article was mentioned. Not quite relevant, but I thought I'd just share.

BBC NEWS | England | Sussex | Pain-free alternative to anaesthetics?

Quite an interesting story - the hope is that it will lead to more funding for proper research into this possible application of hypnosis:

Pain-free alternative to anaesthetics?

By David Fenton
Health Correspondent, BBC South

"I'm glad I did it - it felt ace!"

That's how a registered hypnotherapist described an operation on his thumb - without any anaesthetic.

Surgeons cut, sawed and chiselled a bone out of the hand of Alex Lenkei.

But the 61-year-old didn't feel a thing after putting himself into a trance ahead of the 80-minute operation at Worthing and Southlands Hospital is West Sussex.

"It took about 30 seconds to a minute for me to put myself under," he said.

"I was aware of what was going on around me, I could hear the surgeon talking but I couldn't feel any pain.

"I remember at one point the surgeon asked for a saw, and I had images of this big thing like you get at B&Q - then he said, 'No not that one, the little one', and I thought oh, that's all right then."

Smashed bone

Mr Lenkei needed surgery to remove a bone about the size of a walnut from the base of his thumb.

The surgeon, David Llewellyn-Clark, smashed the bone with a special chisel, then sawed the bone ends and cleared the debris with snippers.

Throughout the operation consultant anaesthetist Dr Richard Venn was on hand to give pain relief - if it was needed.

Both doctors said the process by which a body can shut out pain by hypnosis is not well understood.


"Presumably what happened is that his own body released a lot of pain killing chemicals that prevented him feeling pain during the operation," said Dr Venn.

"What was interesting was that I was monitoring his heart, blood pressure and breathing rate all the time and they stayed exactly the same throughout - so he certainly wasn't experiencing any pain."

Dr Llewellyn-Clark believes there could be a place for hypnosis in NHS treatment.

It was the first time he had operated on anyone under hypnosis.

He added: "I think this is possibly the extreme case of what can be done with hypnosis; but some people are very anxious about being given an anaesthetic so I'm always looking to find alternatives."


Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | England | Sussex | Pain-free alternative to anaesthetics?

Published: 2008/04/18 18:18:15 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

[Acting Like Godot]

Oh, whatever. While I am at it, might as share a few more. I like this one, it talks about a study at Harvard Medical School on how hypnosis helps broken bones and surgical wounds heal faster:

Harvard Gazette: Hypnosis helps healing

Hypnosis helps healing:
Surgical wounds mend faster
By William J. Cromie
Gazette Staff

Marie McBrown was invited to test whether or not hypnosis would help heal the scars from her breast surgery. Marie (not her real name) and 17 other women underwent surgery to reduce their breast size.

It's a common operation for women whose breasts are large enough to cause back and shoulder strain, interfere with routine tasks, or prompt social and psychological problems. The pain and course of healing from such surgery is well-known, and a team of researchers headed by Carol Ginandes of Harvard Medical School and Patricia Brooks of the Union Institute in Cincinnati wanted to determine if hypnosis could speed wound healing and recovery.

"Hypnosis has been used in Western medicine for more than 150 years to treat everything from anxiety to pain, from easing the nausea of cancer chemotherapy to enhancing sports performance," Ginandes says. A list of applications she provides includes treatment of phobias, panic, low self-esteem, insomnia, sexual dysfunction, stress, smoking, colitis, warts, headaches, and high blood pressure.

"All these functional uses may help a person feel better," Ginandes continues. "I am also interested in using hypnosis to help people get better physically. That means using the mind to make structural changes in the body, to accelerate healing at the tissue level."

Four years ago, Ginandes and Daniel Rosenthal, professor of radiology at the Harvard Medical School, published a report on their study of hypnosis to speed up the mending of broken bones. They recruited 12 people with broken ankles who did not require surgery and who received the usual treatment at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. In addition, Ginandes hypnotized half of them once a week for 12 weeks, while the other half received only normal treatment. The same doctor applied the casts and other care, and the same radiologists took regular X-rays to monitor how well they healed. A radiologist who evaluated the X-rays did not know which patients underwent hypnosis.

The result stood out like a sore ankle. Those who were hypnotized healed faster than those who were not. Six weeks after the fracture, those in the hypnosis group showed the equivalent of eight and a half weeks of healing.


How to hypnotize

Not everyone is convinced by the results. Some experts claim that the differences can be explained by the extra attention - the increased psychological support - given to the hypnotized patients. So when she was ready to try hypnosis again on 18 breast surgery patients, Ginandes randomly separated them into three groups. All got the same surgical care by the same doctors. Six received standard care only, six also received attention and support and from a psychologist, and six underwent hypnosis before and after their surgery.

Hypnosis sessions occurred once a week for eight weeks. Psychological soothing took place on the same schedule.

Ginandes did not put the patients to sleep by swinging a watch like a pendulum while the patients lay on a couch. "That only happens in the movies," she laughs. "In hypnosis, people don't lose control and go into a zombie-like state where they can be made to do things against their will. They don't have to lie down, you can enter a state of hypnosis standing up, even standing on your head. Patients don't even go to sleep, rather, they enter a state of absorbed awareness, not unlike losing oneself in a good book or favorite piece of music."

While in this state, Ginandes offered suggestions that were custom-tailored to different stages of surgery and healing, Before surgery, the suggestions emphasized lessening pain and anxiety. "You can even suggest to a patient that she can reduce bleeding during surgery by controlling her blood flow," Ginandes notes. Overall, the suggestions focused on things such as expectation of comfort, decreased inflammation, diminished scar tissue, accelerated wound healing, return to normal activities, and adjustments to self-image.

The women received audio tapes of these sessions so they could practice at home.

At one week and seven weeks after surgery, nurses and doctors participating in the study visibly assessed and measured the wounds of all three groups without knowing which group the women were in. They took digital photographs for three physicians to review. Each patient also rated her own healing progress and how much pain she felt on scales of zero to 10.

The result was clear. Marie McBrown and the women who had undergone hypnosis healed significantly faster than the others. Those who received supportive attention came in second.

From hooey to hurrah

The researchers reported these results in the April issue of the American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis. This report, of course, doesn't prove conclusively that hypnosis will accelerate the healing of wounds. The biggest limitation of the study involves the small number of patients, which makes it difficult to generalize the results to other types of wounds. Then there is the possible effect of expectation, the belief of some patients that hypnotism will work. It's the same effect seen when people who take a sugar pill for a backache do as well as people who take medicine. It's going to require more studies involving many more people to get the majority of doctors to shout hurrah instead of hooey.

Ginandes agrees. "Our study underscores the need for further scientific testing of hypnosis," she says. "Subsequent studies might clarify unresolved speculations about the mechanisms by which hypnotic suggestion can trigger the physical and psychological effects that we see."

She and her colleagues suggest future experiments to compare the effects of simple hypnotic relaxation versus "targeted suggestions for tissue healing." They would also like to see more work done using hypnosis for people suffering from other kinds of wounds, such as foot ulcers caused by diabetes.

Nevertheless, Ginandes believes that the study of healing after breast surgery "breaks the ground for studying a broad and exciting range of new adjunctive treatments. Since clinical hypnosis is a noninvasive, nondrug treatment, finding that it can speed healing of wounds and other conditions could lead to fewer visits to doctors' offices and faster return to normal activities. Also, further investigation might confirm our supposition that the mind can influence healing of the body."

[Acting Like Godot]

Dang ...... I read this article before, but I can't find my copy now. It comes from Nature, arguably the world's best known scientific journal. Anyway it had a really good article on hypnosis, however, if you want it now, you'll have to pay for the article. I can only provide the link and abstract.

Access : The power of suggestion lingers : Nature News

The power of suggestion lingers
Brain scans show hypnosis helps to focus the mind.

Roxanne Khamsi

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Therapists who swear that hypnosis can help their patients now have more evidence to back their claim. A study of brain-scan images shows that hypnosis can indeed alter cognitive activity after subjects have come out of the trance state, and that this can help them concentrate on certain tasks.

To read this story in full you will need to login or make a payment (see right).

[Eisho]

Originally Posted by pokilty

I've admittedly been on-and-off with practicing LoA, but I feel like whenever I think or read about it, my intuition nags at me. Lately following my intuition has given me greater results than LoA, so I can't dismiss it any more.

In order to successfully use the Law of Attraction, you must first believe that it will work. This is an impasse if you're a skeptic, because skeptics want to try it to believe it. This is what the physical world teaches us - that if I see it then I'll believe it, rather than if I believe it then I'll see it (I understand that some of you will want to say, "no! that's just what you've been taught to think", but bear with me...).

I think what bothers me is that there's only one place I see this "believe then see" ideology appear in the world -- and that's religion. Almost every religion operates by letting you know that God doesn't work for you unless you believe in him first. Now, I'm a strong atheist and I've seen many ways in which following organized religion can be disempowering.

To pull this together, I understand that you must have an open mind and not dismiss anything that could be a possibility. But, if I were to live my life by "believing then seeing", I feel like I would be a totally disconnected fanatic just to try anything. What sets LoA apart that means I should give it a shot any more than believing something else? Maybe I should try believing animals can talk and see where that goes. Or believing that I can see the fourth dimension. If I came to this forum with, "Guess what guys, I tried believing that wiggling my toes can affect the world, and now I can fly!", would everybody start wiggling their toes?

I hope this didn't seem like an attack of any sort, but I can't rid this uneasiness and I'd like to understand why. I feel like in the end it might come down to, "We never guaranteed it's the best belief, it just worked for us", but I'm looking for more insight if it's available

I think your uneasiness is completely justified. I don't believe you manifest things just because you believe it is possible and because the universe is ultimately benevolent. I have no doubt that focusing on something will make it easier to accomplish owing to the greater time and energy you put into accomplishment but more than that? I don't think so.

Cheers,

Eisho

[Acting Like Godot]

As mentioned, I am quite biased. On the topic of hypnosis, I only refer to proper studies done by proper researchers, at proper universities. Here's one from Stanford:

Research supports the notion that hypnosis can transform perception

BY MITCH LESLIE

Hypnosis can change how we see the world, a new Stanford study has revealed. By using PET scans to monitor neural activity, researchers demonstrated that the brain processes visual input differently under hypnosis * allowing subjects to "see" color when they are actually staring at a black-and-white image. By bolstering the idea that hypnosis transforms perception, the study supports the use of the technique to improve athletic and intellectual performance and even to "think away" pain .....

For more reading pleasure, here's a study from the University of Liverpool on the use of hypnosis to counter the effects of dementia:

Hypnosis Shown To Reduce Symptoms Of Dementia
ScienceDaily (July 29, 2008) — A scientist at the University of Liverpool has found that hypnosis can slow down the impacts of dementia and improve quality of life for those living with the condition.

Forensic psychologist, Dr Simon Duff, investigated the effects of hypnosis on people living with dementia and compared the treatment to mainstream health-care methods. He also looked at how hypnosis compared to a type of group therapy in which participants were encouraged to discuss news and current affairs.

They found that people living with dementia who had received hypnosis therapy showed an improvement in concentration, memory and socialisation compared to the other two treatment groups. Relaxation, motivation and daily living activities also improved with the use of hypnosis.

Another study here on how hypnosis helps with IBS (irritable bowel syndrome):

Hypnotherapy An Effective Treatment For Irritable Bowel Syndrome

ScienceDaily (Sep. 28, 2005) — Medics at The University of Manchester have discovered a way to treat Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) using hypnotherapy.
Up to eight million people in Britain suffer from IBS, with symptoms including diarrhoea, pain and bloating. The condition can seriously affect sufferers' quality of life and finding treatment can be difficult, leading many doctors to feel they can do little to help.

Research by Peter Whorwell, Professor of Medicine and Gastroenterology in the University's Medical School and Director of the South Manchester Functional Bowel Service, has been researching the use of gut-directed hypnosis for over 20 years. Most recently, two hundred and fifty patients who have suffered from IBS for over two years were given twelve one-hour sessions, during which they were given an explanation of how the gut works and what causes their symptoms.

"IBS is ideal for treatment with hypnosis, as there is no structural damage to the body," explained Professor Whorwell. "During the hypnotherapy, sufferers learn how to influence and gain control of their gut function, and then seem to be able to change the way the brain modulates their gut activity."

With a success-rate of about 70% Professor Whorwell believes that, although labour-intensive, hypnotherapy could be an extremely effective treatment for the condition; and a less expensive alternative to new, costly drugs coming onto the market ......... Link

And of course, hypnosis helps with simple stuff like this. Actually you could just try it for yourself, one hardly needs a scientific study to find out whether hypnosis can help you feel better:

Hypnosis may help anxious teens

Self hypnosis could be useful in aiding treatment for children suffering from anxiety, research has suggested.

A small study found that hypnotherapy helped psychological treatment in reducing anxiety and feelings of helplessness in students.

The effects of hypnotherapy were found to be greater than those of more traditional relaxation techniques.

The research, conducted at Hampshire Hypnotherapy Centre, was revealed to the British Psychological Society.

David Byron, a senior specialist educational psychologist for Hampshire County Council studied 10 pupils, aged 11 to 16, being treated at the centre for emotional behavioural difficulties related to anxiety.

The students received psychological treatment in sessions with their parents during which they set things they wanted to change about their lives. They were then taught how to self-hypnotise and work towards these targets.

Mr Byron said the hypnotherapy acted as a useful vehicle for the psychological treatment, and he found it produced greater effects than were seen in students using more traditional relaxation techniques.

Okay, final example for today, before I go. This study shows how hypnosis helps women who are suffering from pain & anxiety, as they go for breast biopsy:

Hypnosis 'aids breast biopsies'
Hypnosis can help women cope with breast biopsies, researchers find.
US scientists found women in a hypnotic state experienced less pain and anxiety during the procedure compared with women given standard treatment.

The findings were presented at the annual conference of the Radiological Society of North America, which was held in Chicago.

The researchers looked at 236 women who were undergoing a needle biopsy to test tissue for cancerous cells.
Link

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Eisho

I don't believe you manifest things just because you believe it is possible and because the universe is ultimately benevolent.

LOL ... No, it is not. Or rather it depends.

I have no doubt that focusing on something will make it easier to accomplish owing to the greater time and energy you put into accomplishment but more than that?

Yes. Something like your IBS or broken ankle?

[dave marshall]

I can speak only from my own persoanl experience and hypnosis and the power of suggestion are incredible powerful.

I learnt NLP and hypnosis specifically to help me understand howI can train my own mind and create more effectively, I also use it to help others create change but if you bring an understanding of the mind body connection, the law of attraction and hypnosis together you have the tools to create health in all areas, create the experiences you want and create the ability to consciously choose what you focus on. For me these work excpetionaly well in every area of my life.

cheers

dave

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by pokilty

In order to successfully use the Law of Attraction, you must first believe that it will work.

Actually, I don't think you have to believe in LoA for it to work. The proponents all claim that LoA is working all the time whether you believe in it or not.

I think that to use affirmations, you have to have some faith. Because otherwise it will seem silly and your ego will reject them. But affirmations are just a way to bring your focus to what you want in life, and your focus determines what will manifest in your life through LoA. I have been using Negative affirmations to sidestep my ego with good results.

I think of LoA as more of a strategy. If you want to reach certain goals in life, what is the best way to structure your thinking so as to have the best chance of achieving them? I believe that focusing on your desired outcomes makes much more sense than the alternative. I don't Believe in the mystical side of LoA, but I'm not ruling it out either.

[pokilty]

Originally Posted by Eisho

I think your uneasiness is completely justified. I don't believe you manifest things just because you believe it is possible and because the universe is ultimately benevolent. I have no doubt that focusing on something will make it easier to accomplish owing to the greater time and energy you put into accomplishment but more than that? I don't think so.

Cheers,

Eisho

Originally Posted by Lauxa

... I think of LoA as more of a strategy. If you want to reach certain goals in life, what is the best way to structure your thinking so as to have the best chance of achieving them? I believe that focusing on your desired outcomes makes much more sense than the alternative. I don't Believe in the mystical side of LoA, but I'm not ruling it out either.

It's refreshing to know that there are people who feel the attitude is as important as the idea. When I see results I tend to gravitate toward this explanation as well. It would seem it doesn't matter so much why it works, but just that it works - I don't think this thread will see any breakthroughs in agreeing upon how reality works

---

On a side note, I'd like to request that we stay off the topic of hypnosis. It certainly has merit, but I don't feel it's really helping the understanding of LoA progress.

[Angela]

To me, the Law of Attraction has very little to do with getting stuff or achieving goals or making things happen. It's all about using deliberate thought and feeling good on purpose. The stuff and goals and things are just little fun signposts.

So from my point of view, there's no need to bother about believing in it, or figuring out how it works, or convincing anyone (even yourself). You just do it, or you don't -- like having great sex or eating a wonderful meal.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by pokilty

On a side note, I'd like to request that we stay off the topic of hypnosis. It certainly has merit, but I don't feel it's really helping the understanding of LoA progress.

Let me explain. Hypnosis is the Law of Attraction.

As a matter of fact, all forms of thinking are the Law of Attraction. However, some forms of thinking are much more powerful than others, for the purposes of conscious creation.

Essentially if you want to use the LOA well, some of the important things are that you have to relax deeply; be very clear in your mind; remove limiting beliefs and doubts and distractions; visualise and think positively about the desired outcome.

And what happens in hypnosis? Basically you have to relax deeply; be very clear in your mind; remove limiting beliefs and doubts and distractions; visualise and think positively about the desired outcome.

Hypnosis is the Law of Attraction (Or one of its forms). NLP, as mentioned by Dave, is another form.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Angela

To me, the Law of Attraction has very little to do with getting stuff or achieving goals or making things happen. It's all about using deliberate thought and feeling good on purpose. The stuff and goals and things are just little fun signposts.

Yes, I agree (and I'm sure you know that I agree).

However, the stuff and goals and things are very important for the beginners, precisely because they still have doubts about the LOA. Therefore they need tangible results (the signposts) to reassure themselves that something is indeed happening - that their thoughts are truly affecting reality.

Example - the beginner could manifest himself to do a great job at work. And if he manifested well, this WOULD lead him to do a great job at work. However, because he still has doubts about the LOA, he would then wonder whether he is now REALLY doing a great job at work, or whether he is just deluding himself.

Therefore he needs the concrete signposts to reassure himself. Concrete signposts such as a job promotion, a huge pay raise etc.

Here is a case study: myself.

So you see, Angela, I'm just an amateur compared to you. I still need the signposts.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by pokilty

When I see results I tend to gravitate toward this explanation as well.

And that is fine. After all, all your actions are your thoughts. There is no action without a thought behind it, to animate the action and bring it to life. Thought is the only way you can change anything about your reality.

Note however that not all your thoughts are actions. The point which you will have to investigate for yourself is whether those thoughts of yours which do not express themselves in the form of your actions, express themselves in any other way.

[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

There is no action without a thought behind it...

You haven't seen me in the morning.

ALG, you went to some lengths to provide evidence that hypnosis is effective in certain areas of human biology. I don't dispute that it can reduce pain, and perhaps even increase healing rates, but none of those things relate to another proposition, that our thoughts alter objective reality in ways not mediated by the laws of physics and ordinary psychological effects. I haven't seen anyone disputing that if you feel confident in acheiving some goal or other, you're more likely to acheive it, nor even that this positive attitude can become a beneficial habit.

My interest is to understand what is happening, and my concern is that a lot of people misunderstand it, buying into various versions of the mystical view that our thoughts emanate into the world, literally changing it by some psychic power. Clearly, if hypnosis and/or other states of mind affect the physical body, then that is one limited kind of exception, where thought is in some sense translated directly into physical effect in matter. There is, as you have noted, some good evidence for such things.

My concern is that so many people hearing about LoA seem to extend this idea to a range of mystical or psychic abilities, for which I don't think there is any good evidence. This extension of 'positive thinking' and 'hypnotic suggestion' and even 'hypnotic psychosomatics' seems to take many forms. There is often a general feeling that the Universe is somehow watching the individual mind, and providing what the individual wants or thinks about, which also dovetails with belief in God (hence, one of the relationships between LoA and religion). The watching for 'signs' is that kind of superstition, as is the interpreting of possibly quite meaningless events as significant 'messages from the Universe'. Some get to the point of believing that whatever they manage to convince themselves of is the only reality there is: this seems particularly dangerous, since someone taken by this worldview might very easily decide to put their lives on the line to prove it to themselves, and disprove it disastrously. I conjecture that many people have died or caused themselves serious injury through such beliefs.

If someone is 'playing' with the LoA and is persuaded that they must not doubt that reality will change according to their wishes, that is equivalent to them reducing their critical faculty and clear observation (of contrary truths). In the light of all the evidence that we are very good at fooling ourselves and generally have very biased comprehension of reality already, seeing mostly what we want to see, this deliberate exaccerbation of what is already a natural failing of the human percption obviously must raise concerns, though, as is predictable, you apparently don't accept this. Thinking that there might be some danger in not doubing your worldview is itself doubting it. Isn't that deliberately closing one's mind? Isn't refusing to doubt the same as deliberate credulity, deliberate brain-washing? Doesn't doubt play an important role in learning? How did we develop our scientific and technological knowledge without overturning things we once thought were true? Should we have kept our balsa-and-feathers flapping attempts at flying? Maybe noticing that they collapsed and we never took off was the problem.

A classic example is that someone begins to think they might be 'psychic'. From a rational, sceptical point of view, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wondering this and trying to find out - otherwise we would have closed minds. However, often when people try this, their natural human capacities for bias begin to reinforce the idea, when all the evidence of science is that no-one is or ever has been psychic. They notice the positive results and ignore the negative (like someone phoning just when they think about them). We all do this all the time. The power of this self-delusive effect is very well documented.

If we do not discover or attribute any limit to the power of our thoughts to affect reality, then all such abilities are easy to take into our worldview, without thinking critically or learning the facts. The teaching itself says you shouldn't think critically - there's no difference between that and doubting. The novice is told to stop thinking anything that might get in the way of the effect. We therefore turn what is a failure of critical thinking and clear observation - e.g., the 'file drawer effect' (just noticing the hits and ignoring the misses) - into our main technique of personal development.

I am in favour of developing as clear a view as possible, not deliberately distorting it to preclude everything that might be a disappointment or threat. It may be useful sometimes to practice positive thinking to develop confidence, etc., but not at the expense of clear observation. Furthermore, clarity of observation can be a much more powerful personal development technique. Often, the benefits of positive thinking is that it happens to overturn negative self-definitions, but a person replaces an unreal, negative self-belief with an equally unreal positive one. They go from being a waste of space to superhuman. It may 'work' in a crude sense, but at the cost of the opportunity of gaining more enlightened ways of seeing themselves, accurately assessing their strengths and weaknesses and transcending negative self-talk, assessing their opportunities without basing their life on positive self-talk and ignoring the threats. It's why businesses do SWOT analysis (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats), not just SO analysis.

This is why I see the LoA as a false philosophy. It is a very seductive form of mysticism, in some versions, and is rife with misinformation about the nature of the world and humanity. You have to allow doubts into your mind, however, to recognise it.

[Acting Like Godot]

If you insist.

Meanwhile life just keeps getting better and better for me. Wheeee!.

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

A classic example is that someone begins to think they might be 'psychic'. From a rational, sceptical point of view, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wondering this and trying to find out - otherwise we would have closed minds. However, often when people try this, their natural human capacities for bias begin to reinforce the idea, when all the evidence of science is that no-one is or ever has been psychic. They notice the positive results and ignore the negative (like someone phoning just when they think about them). We all do this all the time. The power of this self-delusive effect is very well documented.

LOL. What?

[bumblebeemoi]

I've admittedly been on-and-off with practicing LoA, but I feel like whenever I think or read about it, my intuition nags at me. Lately following my intuition has given me greater results than LoA, so I can't dismiss it any more.

In order to successfully use the Law of Attraction, you must first believe that it will work. This is an impasse if you're a skeptic, because skeptics want to try it to believe it. This is what the physical world teaches us - that if I see it then I'll believe it, rather than if I believe it then I'll see it (I understand that some of you will want to say, "no! that's just what you've been taught to think", but bear with me...).

Originally Posted by pokilty

I think what bothers me is that there's only one place I see this "believe then see" ideology appear in the world -- and that's religion. Almost every religion operates by letting you know that God doesn't work for you unless you believe in him first. Now, I'm a strong atheist and I've seen many ways in which following organized religion can be disempowering.

To pull this together, I understand that you must have an open mind and not dismiss anything that could be a possibility. But, if I were to live my life by "believing then seeing", I feel like I would be a totally disconnected fanatic just to try anything. What sets LoA apart that means I should give it a shot any more than believing something else? Maybe I should try believing animals can talk and see where that goes. Or believing that I can see the fourth dimension. If I came to this forum with, "Guess what guys, I tried believing that wiggling my toes can affect the world, and now I can fly!", would everybody start wiggling their toes?

I hope this didn't seem like an attack of any sort, but I can't rid this uneasiness and I'd like to understand why. I feel like in the end it might come down to, "We never guaranteed it's the best belief, it just worked for us", but I'm looking for more insight if it's available

[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

If you insist.

I'm not insisting, I'm arguing.

Meanwhile life just keeps getting better and better for me. Wheeee!.

It would be very simple indeed if happiness were a valid indicator of sound philosophy. I may not be as happy as you are, but I wouldn't swap with you for all the morphine in China.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

It would be very simple indeed if happiness were a valid indicator of sound philosophy.

I love that, because it is very simple for me indeed: feeling good (happiness is just one little form of feeling good) IS the most valid indicator of sound philosophy.

No opiates or kool-aid required!

[Acting Like Godot]

In fact John's philosophy is fatally flawed. He permits himself a high degree of intellectual dishonesty, because he sees himself as performing a noble role in saving people from themselves.

I have exposed his intellectual dishonesty before and I could easily do so again. But why bother?

The last time, as I recall, he tried to suggest that meditation makes people go insane and claimed that this was the view of British psychiatrists or something like that. Hahahaaaa!

(John, you do make me happy. Thanks for the laughs).

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

performing a noble role in saving people from themselves.

I saw some people like this a few weeks ago at the pier. They were arguing with plants in the audience, the guy in charge was shouting that the other guy (the plant) would be judged for eternity and there was condemnation and self-righteousness. Younger people were very friendly and handing out small printed cartoons which told some story that pertained to the display going on. VERY FRIENDLY, but I kindly refused to accept the pamphlet.

I kid the Freestone.

[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by Angela

I love that, because it is very simple for me indeed: feeling good (happiness is just one little form of feeling good) IS the most valid indicator of sound philosophy.

No opiates or kool-aid required!

If your 'most valid indicator of sound philosophy' is 'feeling good' then opiates or other drugs would be valid ways of proceeding towards greater knowledge, wouldn't they? An alcoholic, beginning to feel a little low, would be well advised to grab a bottle and drink deep of the fountain of wisdom.

[John Freestone]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

In fact John's philosophy is fatally flawed. He permits himself a high degree of intellectual dishonesty, because he sees himself as performing a noble role in saving people from themselves.

I have exposed his intellectual dishonesty before and I could easily do so again. But why bother?

The last time, as I recall, he tried to suggest that meditation makes people go insane and claimed that this was the view of British psychiatrists or something like that. Hahahaaaa!

(John, you do make me happy. Thanks for the laughs).

ALG, it really is quite impolite to accuse someone of lying as an aside, using the third person. Did no-one ever tell you that? Please, if you have the evidence and the balls, accuse me of lying directly.

I'm not really sure why anyone to whom you were addressing your character assassination of me should give a damn what you think, however, since what you think is arbitrary, its only intention being to try to bring reality into agreement with it.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by John Freestone

If your 'most valid indicator of sound philosophy' is 'feeling good' then opiates or other drugs would be valid ways of proceeding towards greater knowledge, wouldn't they? An alcoholic, beginning to feel a little low, would be well advised to grab a bottle and drink deep of the fountain of wisdom.

Not for me, no, because recreational drugs don't generally make or even help me feel good.

I don't believe alcoholics reach the "fountain of wisdom" when they drink; I think it's more like numbness, a form of relief from feeling bad. When I talk about feeling good, I'm wouldn't include numbness or mere relief from feeling bad.