What is the success/failure ratio of I-M?

[Lil Chris]

As I read through the discussions here, which are really thought provoking... I can help but think, Everybody here is right...

"whether you think you can or can't... you're right"
"whether you think this is true or not... you're right"
"whether you think this is voodoo, magik or action oriented... you're right"

We're ALL RIGHT... Now what truths do you want to be right with...?
It seems to be that, there is no right or wrong... There's only right, and the only one who can determine the "right" is YOU (the individual...)

If you disagree... Well guess what... Your RIGHT.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Markus74

JHL: But if humans are just acting in a similar way to magnets then where does that lead us? Freewill is gone. Or maybe hasn't ever been here in the first place.

But this has HUGE logical and moral consequences.

I wonder if you believers realize all the implications. You have to look at the big picture. Not just getting your coffee without having to ask for it.

Freewill is not gone. Yes, I realize all the implications and I do look at the big picture. You don't believe LoA works, you simply think we're deluding ourselves and mistaking motivated action, an activated reticular activating system and co-incidence for LoA and thinking it's something magical. I'm not some superstitious villager from the jungle that mistakes science for magic. In school I graduated with honors, and my strong subjects were math, physics and computer science. I assure you I am a very logical person. I have studied self development for over 10 years and know the power of positive thinking coupled with taking massive action and I assure you this is not it. LoA and IM are much more then that. Consider that even Steve Pavlina, who you can tell is highly intelligent just from his posts, believes in it's magic. His website recommends "The Secret" to everyone. There are also numerous other people on this forum who are highly educated who have began to believe LoA is something you would call magical. Have you asked yourself how is that possible? Have we lost our minds? How would you explain someone like Steve with all his years of self development studies believing something like this? How would you explain me believing something like this?

[Markus74]

I saw 'The Secret'. Most of the fantastical claims are either non-sense or can be explained rationally.

As for the believer thing: People believe in a lot of different, and often silly things, all over the world. They are convinced that what they believe is actually true and sometimes would even be willing to die for it. Even though none of it is proven and contradictory to the things other people would die for. But that doesn't make any of those beliefs true. They're wishful thinking.

Most people want to believe in something. Because it makes them feel better, special and important. That's fine. Because I guess basically we all want the same: to be happy. And maybe understand.

That's also true for people with university degrees of course. Physics and computers alone don't make you happy. We all have this craving for 'more', a lot of us want to understand the inner workings of Life and what meaning there could be in all of this. Some find their truths in religions, others in arts, in nature, in whatever, and others in theories like the LoA. They like the respective idea or concept, and then start to look, and find, for confirmations. But in fact they're just refocussing their attention and they start interpreting everyday things in a different, more mysterious light. These 'proofs' strengthen their belief and on it goes. Each coincidence turns into a mystical sign: I'm important! The Universe works at my command!

As I've also said: several concepts of the LoA are common-sense and I've got no problems with that. Most of the magical aspects can also be explained rationally. As for the most speculative ones of them there's no proof at all and they seem bogus. If they weren't you could prove me wrong once and for all. But you can't. And if they were true, the moral and logical consequences would be devastating.

I also challenged somebody, I think it was Acting, in one of the threads to buy a lottery ticket on Monday with the intent of winning, scan and post it here, and then on Friday manifest the jackpot. Surprisingly I didn't get a response ...

[Angela]

Dear Markus74! I had a lot of fun with my 1-day LoA experiment. In fact, in a way it changed my course, and has loosened up a certain hardened feeling I had been carrying around.

I remember responding to someone that you (Markus74) or any skeptic, should be expected and welcomed to question the exhorbitant claims made by anything that can't be rationally explained, and I still believe that. The defensiveness you have encountered was getting on my nerves.

And. I'm glad I read that Hicks book. I'm glad I read the part about deliberately choosing thoughts that make you feel good when you think them. I'm glad I didn't spend any money on anything. I'm happy that after doing my experiment and now, doing the exercises in the book, I feel good immediately and continuously. Feeling good is underrated! But I'd like to continue to do these things and to share them with Danger Man; and I can see how other people would be excited to share the techniques of LoA.

It seems to me that a lot of people here who use LoA are concentrating on the loot -- win the lottery, find a lover, notice synchronicities. For me, though, the really good part is getting what I really want, underneath all the loot. Some of those things are: being loving, free, joyful, generous, vital, on fire, and more. I was already those things and I want more! More! LoA feels like it's the perfect tool for me to use in creating all those things going into my new year. I'm totally uninterested in the loopholes, arguments, rules, discrepancies, silliness (Abraham? feh.) But I am interested in creating, having fun, and feeling good.

You have asked a lot of questions and expressed a lot of interest, so that's why I'm writing to you. If you weren't drawn to it, you wouldn't be drawn to it, that's all. But since you seem to be, I just wanted to let you know that skeptical me has found it worthwhile and valuable, without any real rational reason to, except that it feels good.

Just thought I'd let you know that, since I won't bother to look at the LoA rationalization threads anymore. I hope to see you elsewhere -- you've got an inquiring mind, and you're entertaining!
Angela.

[Angela]

p.s. I AM sort of stunned by all the loot that's been showing up, too.

[Markus74]

Thanks angela, and it seems like your interpretation of the LoA seems to be somewhat more reasonable and real than that of others. And I'm glad you're feeling good

I'm trying to leave this sub-forum too because the discussions go in circles, but I still do get sucked in

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Markus74

I also challenged somebody, I think it was Acting, in one of the threads to buy a lottery ticket on Monday with the intent of winning, scan and post it here, and then on Friday manifest the jackpot. Surprisingly I didn't get a response ...

The problem with that experiment is that the intent wouldn't be winning the lottery ticket, the intent would be to prove to you that you are wrong BY winning the lottery ticket. Your personal belief that LoA is NOT MAGICAL and that this winning lottery ticket experiment is impossible is way too strong for us to manifest the opposite for you and in fact WOULD mess with your free will to accept LoA at the right time for you.

There is a way we can do this same experiment and prove to you the same thing, but it will require your co-operation. All you need to do is to use the LoA methods to ask the universe for proof that LOA works. Just try it. What do you have to fear? Just say to the universe:

"Ok Universe, if you're really out there and this LoA stuff is as magical as these guys say it is then I want to see proof. I want you to start manifesting things in my life that will prove to me beyond a shadow of doubt that this stuff is real and that it's not just wishful thinking. I am ready to see the proof, oh and you better make it good because I'm a very skeptical person so I'm going to need something very convincing to make it work for myself. Send me the proof, I am ready to see it now."

Just try that. Send out that intention and see what happens. If we're wrong, you have nothing to fear and nothing to lose. Just humour us and try it out. Don't let your fear of "What if it IS true?!" stop you with any more excuses. If you're willing to try it, you might be surprised what happens. If you're not ready to try it yet, I fully respect that and won't bother you anymore.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Markus74

I also challenged somebody, I think it was Acting, in one of the threads to buy a lottery ticket on Monday with the intent of winning, scan and post it here, and then on Friday manifest the jackpot. Surprisingly I didn't get a response ...

You have to understand that I don't view it as a major purpose of my life to entertain you. Besides, if I did win the jackpot, you'd simply say, "Oh, it was just a remarkable coincidence."

I do however keep a fairly detailed blog about my various manifestations. Anybody who is genuinely interested can visit the blog from time to time to check on my progress. If they are sufficiently interested, they can even go through my past blog entries and analyse my success/failure rate.

Oh yes, I do record my successful AND unsuccessful IM attempts. In fact, I had already decided to make 2007 the year of my Great Experiment and both the successful AND unsuccessful IMs provide important data.

Unlike you, I seek to be objective and logical, you see.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by impaul99

The problem with that experiment is that the intent wouldn't be winning the lottery ticket, the intent would be to prove to you that you are wrong BY winning the lottery ticket. Your personal belief that LoA is NOT MAGICAL and that this winning lottery ticket experiment is impossible is way too strong for us to manifest the opposite for you and in fact WOULD mess with your free will to accept LoA at the right time for you.

Oh, so now MY intention is so much stronger than all of yours together? That is laughable! And seriously, I don't want you to fail only so my opinion gets validated. I totally neutral as to the outcome of the experiment, so no negative vibes from me. I'm just CURIOUS as to whether or not you guys could do this. If being curious is a negative intention then I'm sorry ...

So, see, I don't want you to fail. I just want to see whether or not your claims are correct. I'm totally open on the outcome. So what other excuse do you now have?

Just try that. Send out that intention and see what happens. If we're wrong, you have nothing to fear and nothing to lose. Just humour us and try it out. Don't let your fear of "What if it IS true?!" stop you with any more excuses. If you're willing to try it, you might be surprised what happens. If you're not ready to try it yet, I fully respect that and won't bother you anymore.

As I've said: I've tried it before. And it sometimes 'worked' on the things that were more or less probable, and it didn't work on the things that were improbable.

Examples:

Yes, I got free parking lots at times, but so did I before, and there were times where I got none.

I bought a lottery ticket with the intention of winning a (modest) amount. I really concentrated before buying it. I didn't win anything.

I also tried that other popular incantation: I want to manifest x dollars on my bank account, just like that. But unfortunately neither a rich relative nor a bank just wired me some money ... But of course the only reason for that is that I wasn't 100% convinced!! Silly me. It's all my fault. The theory works so great and I'm too stupid to use it.

So, back to the lottery experiment:

Buy a ticket with the intent of winning.
Scan it here.
Post the official results here.

I'm TOTALLY open as to the results. I don't care whether you win or lose. I just want to know the result.

So?

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

You have to understand that I don't view it as a major purpose of my life to entertain you. Besides, if I did win the jackpot, you'd simply say, "Oh, it was just a remarkable coincidence."

That's a cheap cop-out.

Why wouldn't you want to prove your beloved theory to be true? If you were SURE that you would get the jackpot you would be very happy to comply to my challenge and prove me wrong. But since you refuse the challenge you KNOW that you won't get that winning ticket.

I do however keep a fairly detailed blog about my various manifestations. Anybody who is genuinely interested can visit the blog from time to time to check on my progress. If they are sufficiently interested, they can even go through my past blog entries and analyse my success/failure rate.

I've yet to see a manifestation that could only be explained through the supernatural.

Oh yes, I do record my successful AND unsuccessful IM attempts. In fact, I had already decided to make 2007 the year of my Great Experiment and both the successful AND unsuccessful IMs provide important data.

Ok, I'll check it out from time to time.

Unlike you, I seek to be objective and logical, you see.

Yeah, sure ...

And just to get this straight: If you're so objective then is there room for coincidence in your world or is everything but a reaction to your thoughts and intentions?

[Frans]

If I-M would work every time, everybody would use it, because everybody wants to be happy, rich and healthy.

So, if I-M really works always, it's just a matter of time before all people in the world are happy, rich and healthy, and that there will be no war or injustice anymore.

If I-M really works always, all I-M users should be in a constant state of happiness, because they have (or they can get) everything they want.

Allow me to disbelieve this.

If I-M doesn't work every time, it means that I-M is nothing more than your perception of some coincidences.

(I'm talking about I-M here, NOT about the LoA!)

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Markus74

Ok, I'll check it out from time to time.

Definitely I welcome you to come check it out for yourself. Ahhh, then you will see.

And when your eyes pop open wide with amazement, as the weeks and months go by - just remember this; you could've done equally amazing things for yourself. Ahh, if only you'd listened to people like impaul from day one.

[Markus74]

Frans: I/M is indeed a subjective interpretation of coincidences. It's applied wishful thinking. It may motivate a person and let her achieve more. But that's all the magic there is about this. You have to get active, the Universe doesn't do anything.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Definitely I welcome you to come check it out for yourself. Ahhh, then you will see.

And when your eyes pop open wide with amazement, as the weeks and months go by - just remember this; you could've done equally amazing things for yourself. Ahh, if only you'd listened to people like impaul from day one.

Doing amazing things has nothing to do with magic. But with passion and motivation. And cleverness.

Two more things though:

1. So you're still chickening out of my challenge?

2. If you're so objective then is there room for coincidence in your world or is everything but a reaction to your thoughts and intentions?

[JHL]

JHL: But if humans are just acting in a similar way to magnets then where does that lead us? Freewill is gone. Or maybe hasn't ever been here in the first place.

No, you're wrong here Markus. The fact that humans have the property of attracting like, in no way implies a lack of free will. Our "attraction quotient" (whatever you want to call it) is impacted by our thoughts, attitudes and beliefs, which in turn are governed by our own free will. If you think positive and nice, eventually you attract positive and nice, and so on. The only way you can conclude that LoA precludes free will is if you are proposing that we are not in control of our own thoughts.

Not so much for the little girls in Africa whose genitals get mutilated, I guess.

But probably all the pain is just a test and experience for their souls. They wanted, and needed, these horrific experiences and lifelong pain to grow.

Right?

So what you're asking is - am I saying that those little girls only have themselves to blame for attracting that cruelty into their lives. Of course not. But isnt this in contradiction to my assertion that our free will ultimately determines what we attract into our lives? Only if you hold that your conscious mind is the sum total of your being.

But if you also have an spiritual component, perhaps one that has lived many lives over vast tracts of time, then another alternative presents itself: the spiritual component is the actual "magnet", attracting to the physical person on the basis of its energy. However the physical person has a conscious mind with free will, to respond to these things as it chooses, and to attempt to change what it attracts, and therefore to have impact on the spiritual component.

Therefore when a 2 yr old attracts inexplicable suffering into her life, its on the basis of what her spritual component is attracting - where healing is required - and it (fairly or not) becomes the responsibility of the physical person to address.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Markus74

As I've said: I've tried it before. And it sometimes 'worked' on the things that were more or less probable, and it didn't work on the things that were improbable.

Examples:
I bought a lottery ticket with the intention of winning a (modest) amount. I really concentrated before buying it. I didn't win anything.

I also tried that other popular incantation: I want to manifest x dollars on my bank account, just like that. But unfortunately neither a rich relative nor a bank just wired me some money ... But of course the only reason for that is that I wasn't 100% convinced!! Silly me. It's all my fault. The theory works so great and I'm too stupid to use it.

Markus, you're not too stupid to use it, in fact you're probably too smart for your own good. I have tried to do the same thing you describe, where I purchase a scratch and win and try to intend that I win the $10,000 prize or even $500 but I won nothing. The best I've done is $2 which is a 1/4 chance to win anyways so nothin special there. So don't feel bad, it's not just you.

What DOES work for me is when I am much more open with allowing the universe to dictate the HOW and the WHEN. All I focus on is WHAT I want, not how or when. For example, I might have a $5,000 debt that's bugging me that I want to pay off in one swoop so I'll focus my intention and focus on visualizing being debt free. I don't ask HOW or WHEN this happens, I just say "at it's perfect time." Then, within a short period of times (anywhere from days to perhaps a few months) this money shows up from somewhere unexpected. A boss gives me a Christmas bonus for $5000 exactly, or some stock I own goes up by $5,000 or someone offers to buy my car for $5,000 more than I bought it for, or something like that. It always comes in a different way each time.

Now I know this doesn't seem "magical" yet, it just seems like co-incidence that this money came and it would have come anyways in your line of thinking, but it's the degree with which I don't technically DO anything for the money that's "magical" and different compared to traditional ways of earning money by providing value. For example, I try to manifest $1200 and all of a sudden a week later I get a letter from the tax man saying they found a mistake on my previous years taxes and I overpaid by $1200, or something like that. Or you ask for $50 and you find $50 in your jacket pocket, not $10, not $20, not $100, but exactly $50.

One good example is when a friend of mine asked for $10 and then at lunch we went to the mall and he went to try on a pair of jeans and in the pocket he found $10. Apparently someone must have returned the jeans and left $10 in there. Weird stuff like that.

Even BETTER is to manifest what you really want, not what the money will buy. For example, if you want to buy a motorcycle for $10,000 but you only have $2,000 saved up, don't try manifesting $8,000 just go straight for the motorcycle. Maybe the universe will give you $3000 extra plus some way that you get the bike for $5,000 total brand new. The more options you give the universe, the better.

Forget lottery tickets, forget parking spots. Try manifesting signs as a beginning step. Like for example, try visualizing blue feathers, or a blue butterfly or pink flamingo's or your initials or something. At first you'll start to see things and think "Oh, it's the Reticular Activating System kicking in." but as you do it more and more you'll start to ponder the statistical probability of the frequency with which you see the thing and RAS won't cut it anymore.

Anyway, these are just baby steps I would start off anyone I was coaching to develop their manifesting skills. I would never tell them to try manifesting a winning lottery ticket as their first thing, since I can't even do those yet, but I've done a crapload of other stuff, but all with allowing the universe to sort out the HOW and WHEN of the situation. And no, it's not going to take 10 years either. Things attract pretty darn quickly.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by JHL

If you think positive and nice, eventually you attract positive and nice, and so on.

If you mean this in a 'behavioral' way, I totally agree! If you're nice and open, most people are also nice and open. Or at least you meet more nice and open people. But this is all because of YOUR attitude, not because of 'the Universe sending you these people'. Because THAT would turn them into robots indeed.

As I've also said before: The LoA makes sense in that every action has a reaction. But what is bogus and false is to say that the LoA can be used 'to magically attract people or situations without ANY interference or action from YOUR PART'!

So what you're asking is - am I saying that those little girls only have themselves to blame for attracting that cruelty into their lives. Of course not.

So you're not excluding that they have to blame themselves at least partly?? That they're not the victims of ancient traditions and rituals but that they somehow want this for whatever insane reason?

But isn't this in contradiction to my assertion that our free will ultimately determines what we attract into our lives? Only if you hold that your conscious mind is the sum total of your being.

That's the magical cop-out again!

Therefore when a 2 yr old attracts inexplicable suffering into her life, its on the basis of what her spritual component is attracting - where healing is required - and it (fairly or not) becomes the responsibility of the physical person to address.

Well, the suffering is explicable (traditions, rituals, society).

But if I've understood you correctly then the spirits or souls or whatever of these little african girls are attracting the people who mutilate their genitals in order that their celestial components can grow?

I'm sorry, but that's just sick now.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by impaul99

For example, I try to manifest $1200 and all of a sudden a week later I get a letter from the tax man saying they found a mistake on my previous years taxes and I overpaid by $1200, or something like that. Or you ask for $50 and you find $50 in your jacket pocket, not $10, not $20, not $100, but exactly $50.

If it's that easy to manifest money then why do you still work at all (I assume you do)?

And if you get $1200 back because you overpaid it, I really don't see the magic in this, I'm sorry. You were DUE to get it back. Your net win is $0. You gave too much and then got it back.

One good example is when a friend of mine asked for $10 and then at lunch we went to the mall and he went to try on a pair of jeans and in the pocket he found $10. Apparently someone must have returned the jeans and left $10 in there. Weird stuff like that.

That's weird indeed. But if you're right then either the Universe MADE a person leave $10 there or created them out of thin air. Both explanations are baseless unless they can be proven or repeated. And I won't even mention the free will aspect.

Forget lottery tickets, forget parking spots. Try manifesting signs as a beginning step. Like for example, try visualizing blue feathers, or a blue butterfly or pink flamingo's or your initials or something. At first you'll start to see things and think "Oh, it's the Reticular Activating System kicking in." but as you do it more and more you'll start to ponder the statistical probability of the frequency with which you see the thing and RAS won't cut it anymore.

Ok, this sounds like the fact that when you've got a new car, you suddenly see that car everywhere. But it's just that your brains has changed its filtering method.

I'll give it a try though. I'll try to manifest blue feathers, since I nearly never see them. But let's say I'm going to see a movie and suddenly I notice a blue feather somewhere. Has that feather always been in the movie or was it inserted for me as a sign? And I'm sure I wouldn't have noticed it if I weren't, consciously and subconsciously, looking for blue feathers ( like with the new car).

[JHL]

As I've also said before: The LoA makes sense in that every action has a reaction. But what is bogus and false is to say that the LoA can be used 'to magically attract people or situations without ANY interference or action from YOUR PART'!

Explain to me, Markus, how a magnet attracts its polar opposite. What does it DO? Answer? Nothing. Its physical orientation is sufficient to create effect a physical result. If this can apply to magnets, why cant it apply to humans? (uh oh - glib answer approaching...)

So you're not excluding that they have to blame themselves at least partly?? That they're not the victims of ancient traditions and rituals but that they somehow want this for whatever insane reason?

No, I was not suggesting they personally desired the cruelty be inflicted on them. You read the context wrong, or I did not express it clearly enough.

That's the magical cop-out again!

Why is this a cop out? Is it because I have no hard evidence for what I'm describing? If thats how you measure it, then yes, it is a cop out. But I did go to the effort of contextualising it against the meaning of life and the role it plays in life, and it makes sense as such, at least to me.

I'm sorry, but that's just sick now.

It ocurred to me that when you raised this emotionally charged example, that you were setting me up for a kicker like the above. And you delivered It may be "sick" Markus, whatever moral equity you believe that descriptor earns you here, but it hasnt advanced your counter argument any. Pain and suffering is a fact of life for us all, in all its shapes and forms. Its purpose remains unchanged. Unless of course one denies the link between suffering and growth.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Markus74

If it's that easy to manifest money then why do you still work at all (I assume you do)?

I will always "work" as I believe I have a purpose here on earth to accomplish something and not just sit on my couch and get fat, however I understand the question behind your question. What you're really asking is whether I still do work that I don't enjoy, and wouldn't do for free; or another way of saying it is why am I not "playing" full time instead of "working" full time if I can manifest stuff. The answer is that I've been working on that aspect of my life and it has seen significant improvements especially over the last two years, but I'm still struggling with certain aspects which have nothing to do with money but rather with finding purpose.

Meaning, what I seek is to wake up each morning and live my day doing everything with purpose and to have a very comfortable lifestyle in the process. The comfortable lifestyle is pretty easy, finding your purpose isn't as easy for me yet. I'm working on it every day though.

And if you get $1200 back because you overpaid it, I really don't see the magic in this, I'm sorry. You were DUE to get it back. Your net win is $0. You gave too much and then got it back.

My belief is that if I didn't manifest the $1200 I wouldn't have gotten it back. As in, the person who noticed the error wouldn't have noticed the error for example. In your language, I believe my intention manifested itself in that person noticing the error, not because I'm remote controlling him, but because I believe we are all part of one connected consciousness and he "hears" an intuitive call so he takes a second look at my paperwork because of a hunch and sure enough he finds an error. If I didn't send out the intention, he wouldn't have had the hunch and thus he wouldn't have spotted the mistake and I wouldn't get my $1200.

Also, the fact that I wanted $1200 and I got $1200 is what I was referring to also. It could have been $700, $900, $50, or any other number.

That's weird indeed. But if you're right then either the Universe MADE a person leave $10 there or created them out of thin air. Both explanations are baseless unless they can be proven or repeated. And I won't even mention the free will aspect.

Not really, the universe just happened to know that there was ten bucks in the pocket of a pair of jeans so when my friend walked by the store for example he could have had this hunch "Hey, I should get a pair of jeans." or maybe a pair of jeans in the display case "caught his eye", and so the universe leads him towards the $10 he asked for. But if he didn't follow the hunch for example, and said "Nope, I'm not trying on jeans today!" the universe would have found another way to get him another $10, like for example someone gives him a scratch and win ticket and he wins $10 or whatever.

I'll give it a try though. I'll try to manifest blue feathers, since I nearly never see them. But let's say I'm going to see a movie and suddenly I notice a blue feather somewhere. Has that feather always been in the movie or was it inserted for me as a sign? And I'm sure I wouldn't have noticed it if I weren't, consciously and subconsciously, looking for blue feathers ( like with the new car).

Yup, that is why the first time you notice your blue feather, you'll smile but you'll still think "Cool, but probably a co-incidence. I want more." and the universe will comply, offering you more and more incredible ways the blue feather shows up until you start thinking there's more to this.

I did this with a friend once, except he was looking for a blue butterfly. We were at a local mall at lunch and someone we know started talking to him about this blue butterfly his girlfriend has framed in a picture frame. That was co-incidence #1. We didn't think much of it, but we went to the bookstore downstairs just to see what new books came out and while walking into the self-development section there was one book that was sitting sideways like someone put it back on the shelf in the wrong place. My friend immediately saw it as it was a book that had a BLUE BUTTERFLY on the cover. So I told my friend that it means he should buy that book. He flipped through the pages and still wasn't convinced whether he should buy it or not, so my other friend who was with us pulled another book off the bookshelf called "The Oracle" or something like that which is simply a book that has a whole bunch of answers to questions and he said "Here, ask the oracle if you should buy the book." so my friend said "Ok fine, should I buy this book with the blue butterfly?" and we opened the Oracle book to a random page and it said "Today is Wednesday and the Answer is Yes." Guess what, it was wednesday Sure enough my friend bought the blue butterfly book.

The oracle book by the way has all kinds of answers, not just yes or no, like random stuff like "Purple" etc. To make things worse, or better, depending how you want to look at it, here's a link to the book with the picture of the blue butterfly he saw. Look at the title:

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/item/books-978158685176/1586851764/Consider+the+Butterfly+Transforming+Your+Life+Thro ugh+Meanin?ref=Search+Books%3a+'coincidence'

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by JHL

If this can apply to magnets, why cant it apply to humans? (uh oh - glib answer approaching...)

Why should it? Do you have any evidence that humans work like magnets? And do magnets have free wills?

As I said: Of course positive people will rather attract positive people because they share a common view of the world. And of course negative people will rather attract negative people so they can all lament about how bad the world is. But this is a simple action-reaction thing. The people act like this because they've come into contact with each other, not because the Universe remote-controlled them.

No, I was not suggesting they personally desired the cruelty be inflicted on them. You read the context wrong, or I did not express it clearly enough.

So there are things happening to you with you having intended them? Doesn't that go against the IM and LoA logic? Please explain.

Why is this a cop out? Is it because I have no hard evidence for what I'm describing? If thats how you measure it, then yes, it is a cop out. But I did go to the effort of contextualizing it against the meaning of life and the role it plays in life, and it makes sense as such, at least to me.

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean it's objectively true too.

It occurred to me that when you raised this emotionally charged example, that you were setting me up for a kicker like the above. And you delivered

I take these examples because they are extreme. And it's at the extremes that you see whether or not a theory is coherent. Because a theory, and even more a law, has to be true for everybody. You can't just pick what confirms your theory and ignore the rest.

Pain and suffering is a fact of life for us all, in all its shapes and forms. Its purpose remains unchanged. Unless of course one denies the link between suffering and growth.

Of course you CAN grow through pain, and often even more than through love. But you cannot take this to the extreme and make it true for all situations.

There are people who suffer and grow. And other people will admire them.
There are people who suffer and fail. Other people will ignore them.

And if pain exist because of growth then I guess the millions that had to die in the Holocaust and similar events have to be thankful! Their cruel deaths hastened their enlightenment.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by impaul99

My belief is that if I didn't manifest the $1200 I wouldn't have gotten it back.

Which would have been your fault then. Don't you check or verify your account statements???

As in, the person who noticed the error wouldn't have noticed the error for example. In your language, I believe my intention manifested itself in that person noticing the error, not because I'm remote controlling him, but because I believe we are all part of one connected consciousness and he "hears" an intuitive call so he takes a second look at my paperwork because of a hunch and sure enough he finds an error. If I didn't send out the intention, he wouldn't have had the hunch and thus he wouldn't have spotted the mistake and I wouldn't get my $1200.

So you 'altered' his brainwaves, emotions, whatever just by thinking about it? If you really believe this, then we don't need to discuss this any further indeed. Since I don't believe in remote-controlling, or if you prefer, remote-influencing people. And this would also mean that other people can influence you without you knowing it.

Also, the fact that I wanted $1200 and I got $1200 is what I was referring to also. It could have been $700, $900, $50, or any other number.

I don't have enough details to make a judgment on this.

Not really, the universe just happened to know that there was ten bucks in the pocket of a pair of jeans so when my friend walked by the store for example he could have had this hunch "Hey, I should get a pair of jeans." or maybe a pair of jeans in the display case "caught his eye", and so the universe leads him towards the $10 he asked for. But if he didn't follow the hunch for example, and said "Nope, I'm not trying on jeans today!" the universe would have found another way to get him another $10, like for example someone gives him a scratch and win ticket and he wins $10 or whatever.

Why doesn't the Universe give people who are looking for food these hunches?

Yup, that is why the first time you notice your blue feather, you'll smile but you'll still think "Cool, but probably a co-incidence. I want more." and the universe will comply, offering you more and more incredible ways the blue feather shows up until you start thinking there's more to this.

We'll see. I'm curious ...

The oracle book by the way has all kinds of answers, not just yes or no, like random stuff like "Purple" etc. To make things worse, or better, depending how you want to look at it, here's a link to the book with the picture of the blue butterfly he saw. Look at the title:

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/item/books-978158685176/1586851764/Consider+the+Butterfly+Transforming+Your+Life+Thro ugh+Meanin?ref=Search+Books%3a+'coincidence'

Hey, a book with precise (?) answers. I like that. That way it can be tested

[edit: oh, I thought that was a link to the Oracle book ... don't you have that one? ]

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Markus74

So you 'altered' his brainwaves, emotions, whatever just by thinking about it? If you really believe this, then we don't need to discuss this any further indeed. Since I don't believe in remote-controlling, or if you prefer, remote-influencing people. And this would also mean that other people can influence you without you knowing it.

Yeah, I see how if you believe that all human beings have a completely seperate consciousness not interconnected this wouldn't make sense. I believe that we are all interconnected via a spritual consciousness that connects every human being, animal etc. You don't have to believe that, but I do. I didn't "remote control" him, I simply sent out my intention to the universe, and it sent him information which he then acted on and of his own free will chose to act on it, but he didn't have to.

Hey, a book with precise (?) answers. I like that. That way it can be tested

[edit: oh, I thought that was a link to the Oracle book ... don't you have that one? ]

I think it was this one:

Amazon.com: the oracle book of answers

I only saw it used that one time I described, but now that you mention it, it is kind of a cool book. Maybe I'll pick one up at the bookstore next time. I'll ask "Should I pick this book up? Am I ready?" and see what it answers, lol.