is clutter part of the poverty mindset?

[persephonevii]

It struck me as I was cleaning my desk up that I had acquired a lot of junk. Tons of old magazines, chipped old mugs, loads of paperwork, old stick-it notes, etc. etc. The rest of my room had gradually acquired a lot of junk too!

So I thought about why I had accumulated so much junk in a space of only 6 months. I know its presence made me feel safe, feel secure, feel strong and fortified. Something I could hide behind. I considered giving away some books and clothes to Vinnies (charity shop in Australia) and immediately thoughts/feelings of 'No!', 'What if you need it!?', 'Your mother bought that for you with her hard-earned cash!', 'You'll regret losing it!', 'You need it, you won't be strong without it!'.

I was also thinking of my lack of money, always trying to figure out ways to pay for stuff for my course, the rent, etc. and it occurred to me... that this clutter and my lack of money might share a connection. That perhaps one caused the other, or they feed each other in a cycle of poverty, so to speak.

My mother has always been a big hoarder, a big collector of items. No doubt I learnt the habit off her, but why did she start? Thinking about it she came from a very poor family where stuff that was acquired was used, or reasoned to be kept because you never know when you might use it. And usually along came a use for it. Later on life, she married my father and began living a much more well-off life... however, she always seemed to be low on money, always trying to reason with her debtors, the taxman, etc. so she could find them their money. She still hoarded items though and always reasoned that despite the wealth you never knew when you would need it. And if you threw it away, she got very upset. I think she thought the same as I... those items gave her a sense of protection, of security, its okay we ain't gonna starve.

Her own bedroom has five wardrobes stacked to the their capacity with clothes, shoes and accessories. They surround her bed like a fortress. Tall, imposing things they are. And the kitchen is overflowing with food and cooking utensils, she has huge plastic bags full of ten year old magazines and pamphlets. It seems as if her whole life was just one big war to stave off starvation, homelessness and yet despite the big income of her husband, the five wardrobes, and boxes of food... she still never has enough!

You know I should probably write a story on a woman like my Mum. But that's for another thread.

Anyway, so I hoard and collect items for that sense of security, of power, of protection. Sure I was never raised with the impending and real threat of starvation, but I still inherited that desperate-hoarder mindset from her.

I love freebies and cheapo items. I can't resist a good, cheap book. Or a good, cheap pastel/paint set. You never know when I might need them! But I hardly ever use them. And yet I feel empty and clawing for ever more. I feel as if I have to collect, collect, collect!

So besides the obvious fact that buying all these little trinkets slowly but surely eats away at my money, is it because we hoard this energy (as in mass is energy, energy is mass), constantly taking and living in some sort of vague fear of... something, that we get so little in return? Or if we do get something, we struggle so hard for it? That in fact, the hoarded items only give a person a very powerful illusion of security?

[BenThere]

You know I should probably write a story on a woman like my Mum.

You just did, and it's a very interesting story!

I believe you have some brilliant insight into a pattern of mindset in your family.

How much of that mindset do you want to continue into your future? Is it useful to you to be a thrifty collector? Or is thriftiness part of a fear of poverty that is just clutter inside your mind?

[persephonevii]

Originally Posted by BenThere

You just did, and it's a very interesting story!

I believe you have some brilliant insight into a pattern of mindset in your family.

How much of that mindset do you want to continue into your future? Is it useful to you to be a thrifty collector? Or is thriftiness part of a fear of poverty that is just clutter inside your mind?

Thanks for your reply.

How much of that mindset do you want to continue into your future?

There are parts of that mindset that are useful, but others such as the base fear of poverty that seems to drive a lot of my thoughts and actions that I need to be rid of. Those feelings of vulnerability, of going without, of not being strong enough derive from that inherited base fear, and I believe that in general, this mindset will not serve me well in life.

Is it useful to you to be a thrifty collector?

I am committed to getting rich and saving money is large part of my strategy. But I think I am using this ability of thrift hunter wrongly. I thrift hunt for... useless items. Items that clutter, that are never used but are ultimately acquired to give me that sense of strength, of protection and sometimes even, accomplishment. And I know being rich involves being vulnerable, involves going out of the fort and facing whatever dangers are out there. So I think thrift hunting is a tool, a tool that could serve me to get rich or serve me to keep safe, but poor.

Or is thriftiness part of a fear of poverty that is just clutter inside your mind?

I think now that thriftiness is part of that fear, it serves that fear in its own way. By helping me protect me from those awful threats of poverty. So in a sense, I act from this fear furthering this fear's own existence! I sustain the fear... and the fear supposedly sustains me by saying to me, 'You don't want to be a homeless nobody!', 'Getting kicked out, no where to go!', so I act on those threats through the thriftiness and thus the fear continues its own existence.

I also noticed I have a lot of clutter in my own mind too. Picking up useless bits of trivia and knowledge, devouring books like some sort of demented bookworm. I tend to think that type of action derives from my personality... geeky, knowledge-driven background. Constantly soaking up knowledge and enjoying it. Combine that with my poverty mindset and it's all a bit of a mess really.

[Wax Frog]

I wish I had time to respond at length, but I identify alot with this thread/topic!

I'm in the midst of a sort of emotional-release process, and am assured that I will be getting alot of my own 'stuff' reflected back at me. I'd say this fits!

[wachusettgirl]

I'm not a certified feng shui expert, but from doing some reading I believe that alot of the principles of feng shui and space clearing involve clearing out clutter and debris to make room for new things in your life. I also think that with the Law of Attraction what you think about, talk about (write about), put your focus on will become true. That is to say, if you really believe that the clutter in your life is contributing to a poverty mindset, then it is. It's extremely difficult to change or release that mindset, so perhaps the easier route would be to just remove the clutter. I've personally found that getting rid of excess stuff can be tremendously freeing. I think the saying is with feng shui cleaning, "if you don't use it or love it, get rid of it!" Of course you have to decide which things go to goodwill, which things get heaved, which things get given away or put in a yard sale... but you can make this into a "live in the moment" experience just like anything else. Just tackle one drawer or closet, or room at a time and have some fun with it.

[Acting Like Godot]

I like to live with minimal amounts of junk. Junk distracts you from your new creations-in-the-making.

[persephonevii]

Well, yesterday I cleaned up my room and got rid of some of that clutter. Just sitting in this clean, clutter-less room makes me feel more organized and in control.

So yes, I do think there is some sort of connection here even if it is only a mild one.

[danman85]

This is a big coincidence for me. I had a dream a few months ago that if I cleaned my room of all my clutter (clutter KING here!), then I would come into some money. I cleaned it once, but kinda just threw all the clutter in the closets and in drawers. I will really clean all the clutter and THROW STUFF AWAY, because I've fallen into that mindset after I had that dream. The clutter started to annoy me after that dream, too. I don't know if less clutter = more money in particular, but there is definitely some connection in my opinion between clutter and some kind of lack of spiritual wealth. It's like I'm hanging on to all the old material things, which all have their histories, in order to define myself deep down, almost...

[Monique7nuns]

No, clutter is not a 'poverty' mindset. Poverty is a poverty mindset. As a person who has approx $15 to my name right now and is living mostly off the generosity of others (otherwise I'd be homeless), I am and have been clutter free for years. Considering my many moves, it's been very liberating.

[Wax Frog]

To me, clutter's more of a holding-onto-the-past thing...

[cylon]

The clutter is a distraction, it's a huge project that you'll have to tackle some day. So as it gets bigger and bigger, in your mind you have a huge project to tackle, (cleaning out the clutter) and this project starts to fill your mind.

So instead of thinking of new paths to take, tackling your personal issues, this project of having to clean the clutter replaces it in your mind. If you clean it out, you'll have to confront what you were avoiding.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by wachusettgirl

I'm not a certified feng shui expert, but from doing some reading I believe that alot of the principles of feng shui and space clearing involve clearing out clutter and debris to make room for new things in your life. I also think that with the Law of Attraction what you think about, talk about (write about), put your focus on will become true. That is to say, if you really believe that the clutter in your life is contributing to a poverty mindset, then it is. It's extremely difficult to change or release that mindset, so perhaps the easier route would be to just remove the clutter. I've personally found that getting rid of excess stuff can be tremendously freeing. I think the saying is with feng shui cleaning, "if you don't use it or love it, get rid of it!" Of course you have to decide which things go to goodwill, which things get heaved, which things get given away or put in a yard sale... but you can make this into a "live in the moment" experience just like anything else. Just tackle one drawer or closet, or room at a time and have some fun with it.

I agree with what you've said.

Clutter, like all things we experience, is a pattern replicated in our environment based off of inner mind content. As above, so below. To me, clutter represents confusion, chaos, and frustration. It could be a completely different symbol for someone or something else. Someone could even concievably associate clutter with the concept of freedom (or at least, freedom from order). If we associated clutter with a poverty or scarcity mindset, it could well be the symbol that the mind content dresses up in, for you to experience in the "outer" world. The law of attraction always manifests things congruent with our mindset, using the symbols we have gathered over the course of our lifetimes.

For example, a fly's concept of abundance could well involve delicious mounds of manure.

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

Clutter, like all things we experience, is a pattern replicated in our environment based off of inner mind content. As above, so below. To me, clutter represents confusion, chaos, and frustration.

The law of attraction always manifests things congruent with our mindset, using the symbols we have gathered over the course of our lifetimes.

That is what clutter represents to me, as well. But, like you I agree it means whatever the individual sees it to mean because that *is* what LoA is.


Thanks for sharing your story, persephonevii!

[persephonevii]

Originally Posted by jawillie

That is what clutter represents to me, as well. But, like you I agree it means whatever the individual sees it to mean because that *is* what LoA is.


Thanks for sharing your story, persephonevii!

Your welcome

I've been doing even more thinking about this clutter business and I think whilst clutter doesn't have an exact/inverse/expotential, etc. relationship with how attracting money into your life. I think it can contribute to a sense of confusion and chaos as Anagogy said for some people, like myself. That in turn can give me an atmosphere of laziness, its okay we can do it later but at the same time feeling not quite with the program. So when it does come to the business of getting money into my life, well I'm just not up to scratch, it's all over the place and things rarely get done. But that affects other areas of my life too. It's a universal effect really.

However, since cleaning out my room I did receive $20.00...hmmm. An unexpected reward of sorts? Or a natural consequence of getting clutter-free?

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Monique7nuns

No, clutter is not a 'poverty' mindset. Poverty is a poverty mindset. As a person who has approx $15 to my name right now and is living mostly off the generosity of others (otherwise I'd be homeless), I am and have been clutter free for years. Considering my many moves, it's been very liberating.

Bless you. I hope things get better for you soon.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

To me, clutter's more of a holding-onto-the-past thing...

This is what I relate to. I used to be the type of person who liked only owning what would fit into my car. Or maybe a few trips with my car. Then my mom died. And now 11 years later, I have a house completely filled with stuff and boxes and clutter all over the place. It's a wrenching experience to let anything go anymore, and I do mean anything.

[cylon]

I have tons of books and cds. All my cds have been converted to mp3... but they hold some nostalgic value. But I have like a thousand or something. Same thing with books, comic books, so much... money I have put into purchasing things to distract me from my own thoughts.

Am I the only one... but as you progress in self-development, do you find that instead of buying book after book you re-read the same stuff multiple times?

[Dannyboy1]

You're hoarding useless junk - fear of loss = no belief in abundance = no abundance.

Junk it or give it away. Do the same things with your useless thought patterns and focus on the now. Clear your mind like you clear your home.

Theres an amazing book about getting rid of clutter. Oprah has the author on. Go to her website and check it out. One of the great ideas that struck me was something the guy said about cleaning the kitchen utensils drawer. He said take everything in the drawer and put it in a box below the sink. Every time you use a utensil, put it in the utensil drawer. After a month or two or four, whatever is in the box, throw it out. You'll never use it. I thought this was brilliant.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by cylon

Am I the only one... but as you progress in self-development, do you find that instead of buying book after book you re-read the same stuff multiple times?

This is happening to me right now, as a consequence of will. I am finally embracing a long-denied understanding that my answers really are to be found within. Thus the only truly useful PG books are those that demand to be applied toward that aim. All others are feel-good fluff that become crutches for avoidance.

[cylon]

I can't count the amount of self-help books I've bought in my lifetime.

I've listened to the audio version of the Hicks books, especially "Law of Attraction" probably at least ten times by now.. and I still get something new from it every time.

I've noticed all the self-help stuff, when reduced to its essence, is the same thing. Abraham, Tolle, whatever it is... it's the same message.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by cylon

I can't count the amount of self-help books I've bought in my lifetime.

I've listened to the audio version of the Hicks books, especially "Law of Attraction" probably at least ten times by now.. and I still get something new from it every time.

I've noticed all the self-help stuff, when reduced to its essence, is the same thing. Abraham, Tolle, whatever it is... it's the same message.

Don't leave me hangin! What's the message??? Take Aspirin?

[cylon]

No shortcuts.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by cylon

I've noticed all the self-help stuff, when reduced to its essence, is the same thing. Abraham, Tolle, whatever it is... it's the same message.

Yep. You just have to keep searching until you find something that "clicks", and then hang onto it as if your life depended on it. For me it seems "The Presence Process" fits the bill (same publisher as Tolle's books, incidentally).

[Zwynd]

persephonevii, I too live in a very cluttered home.

It did start with my family and I remember when I was very young that clutter was never a problem but when some bad events began occurring things started to get cluttered, fast. I do recall us going from very rich to extremely poor. Clutter wasn't the main reason for it, but it certainly didn't help our situation.

The inside of my mother's house, last I remember it, could have passed for a village's dump. Seriously. Even the backyard was a mess and no matter how much I cleaned it up, the next week it'd be right back where it was.

I will not go further into details here as I don't want anyone to lose their lunch.

So I gave up with trying to clean and gave in with the rest of the family by just ignoring it.

I still live in clutter but no where near the mess I did when I lived with my mother as a kid. I made a promise to myself that I'd never allow clutter to get THAT bad again in my own life. In my home there may be paper all over my desk, clothes on my bedroom floor, and dust on items but that's about the worst of it.

Yet, recently I've really taken a critical eye on this (your post has helped somewhat) and have decided that I'm going to keep a less cluttered home and life.

I don't live in poverty anymore but I still waste a lot of energy trying to find what I need. In a sense, that causes me to lose out on opportunities [and money] because I could not find that phone number fast enough, missed an appointment for a fun event because I lost my planner, and so on.

So I'll be going harder on myself this summer to clear out unwanted items. I may even go as far as to throw out what I won't be using for the next 3 months (minus seasonal items.)

I'd honestly rather have less around me now, to make more room for opportunity, than have more of a past that only burdens me now.

[sbdiane]

I just returned from spending 3 months in the wilderness with everything I needed in a backpack on my back. The less I had the better.

Now that I'm home I'm overwhelmed with all the stuff I have, including all the stuff from my trip that I just can't seem to get myself to sort through and put away.

I think part of it is that I don't want my trip to end. If I put everything away that will be the end of the amazing adventure I had.

Perhaps not wanting to let go is more at issue than poverty.

[Parthon]

Zwynd: Hahaha! "Village dump." - perfect description!

My mum's house is exactly that! She has an entire room and a shed full of junk that she's "going to sort out soon" and it's been almost 4 years since she moved in there. She's even still got my boxes of toys and I moved out almost 10 years ago. I told her to throw them but she said "Oh, but someone might want to play with them some day."

I know my mum's source of the issue, she really likes security, mainly due to not having any growing up. She loves property and stuff, but also has a fair amount of the scarcity mindset going on too and spends much of her time trying to find the cheapest deals around and keeping anything she thinks is valuable even though it could be worthless.

When I saw the pattern for myself, I knew it's negative impact. Mainly the lack of space and the restrictions to your freedom because you think you have to save stuff and buy cheaply. The hidden cost though was spending so much time and energy "saving money" that I missed out on the opportunities to earn more money. Plus there's the new caveat I learnt - If you save money by buying something you didn't need on special, then you didn't save money but spent money on something you didn't need, no matter how much the sale sign says.

So I asked are the impacts of spending money on "specials", lack of freedom, lack of space and wasted time and effort really worth it? Nopes! So I got rid of all the clutter and boy do I feel a lot better. More freedom and space, less work dealing with what I have, and more money! :O That one was a suprise. On top of that, because I have more money I went and bought things I really needed, like an exercise bike, a new computer, and new clothes. Now if I don't need/want something and it won't be used, out it goes. If I need something, I buy it.

I do believe though that security is the enemy of progress. It doesn't allow for growth or expansion, and keeps you in the same spot. It's source is scarcity thinking and fear of loss. The truth is nothing that is really important can be lost anyways.

[Zwynd]

Originally Posted by Parthon

Zwynd: Hahaha! "Village dump." - perfect description!

My mum's house is exactly that! She has an entire room and a shed full of junk that she's "going to sort out soon" and it's been almost 4 years since she moved in there. She's even still got my boxes of toys and I moved out almost 10 years ago. I told her to throw them but she said "Oh, but someone might want to play with them some day."

Are you sure you don't have the same mother as me?

I know my mum's source of the issue, she really likes security, mainly due to not having any growing up. She loves property and stuff, but also has a fair amount of the scarcity mindset going on too and spends much of her time trying to find the cheapest deals around and keeping anything she thinks is valuable even though it could be worthless.

That's definitely my mother, only she doesn't go and buy cheap stuff; she actually picks it up from the city dump instead or has people give her hand-me-down broken furniture/soiled carpet scraps that really should be thrown out/burned.

I recall many times in my childhood where our family events were garbage-bin hunting in back alleys. Not that there's anything wrong with it as sometimes people throw away nearly perfect things, but it really shouldn't be a weekly thing when we don't really need anything...

She very much reminded me of that weird old lady in the Labyrinth movie who had tons of junk on her back.

What saddens me when I think about her now is that I tried helping her so many times with her hoarding issue as well as other things in her life but she could not see how she was living and unfortunately it nearly killed me in the process to continue to aid her, so I had to let go and move on.

I can only wish that I'll never get to her extreme, nor anywhere even close to it. The thought of such an attachment to 'things' scares the hell out of me.

[hkalchemy]

Originally Posted by persephonevii

I love freebies and cheapo items. I can't resist a good, cheap book. Or a good, cheap pastel/paint set. You never know when I might need them! But I hardly ever use them. And yet I feel empty and clawing for ever more. I feel as if I have to collect, collect, collect!

I used to do this myself. I would collect and keep freebies and then never use them. In fact I AVOIDED using them because 'I might need them one day.' In the meantime, they became old and out of date and useless.

I think you're right - this is a poverty mindset. Things need to keep flowing or they decay away. Now I tend to view things as consumables and I'm not afraid to use the stuff I have. And I only buy what I need. If I'm offered a freebie, I'll take it if I really think I can use it, but a freebie for the sake of a freebie doesn't appeal any more. I don't hoard. It makes me feel better, more alive!

Good luck!

[carenkh]

I think clutter can be part of a poverty mindset - it can also be used to take you out of the "now" and being fully present. Even if someone doesn't consciously feel stressed around clutter, I believe at an energetic level, that stress is present.

I used to keep absolutely every book I owned, I had shelf after shelf of books, books, books, and I would panic when I thought about getting rid of them! Something shifted though, and a few years ago, I went through all of them and asked if I LOVED that book, and if I didn't - out it went! My son's preschool got them all, and made money with them at their yard sale. In the years since, I periodically weed through my books, and now, even if I LOVE a book, if I haven't read it in a while, and don't think I'll read it again - out it goes!

Clear Your Clutter with Feng Shui is one of the BEST books I have read about clutter, and reasons we have it, and how to clear it! It also introduces some feng shui principles.

My home used to be very, very messy all the time - really dirty. Since moving last year, I have kept my new place cleared - it makes SUCH a huge difference in how I feel. I no longer have my clutter to hide behind! There were so many reasons I kept a messy house, I have tons of stories, but will stop here. Clean and clear is SO much better for me.

[moonrambler]

I've been thinking lately about books too, because I always loved the idea of having a library in my house, and what I've discovered is that because I don't have a maid books get dusty. So I've got shelves of books that always have to be dusted. And some of them are just old paperback novels, some in lousy condition because I read them a bunch of times but now most of them I don't want to read anymore because I know them inside and out. I also have a lot of nice-looking hardcover books that I didn't like all that well but they look classy on the shelves. I've just started unloading some of these. There's really no reason I need to have all these books all over the house when there are libraries in town.

About the freebies and consumables and cheap things that we get and store up, I really think this has been ingrained in many of us at least since the generation that lived through the tough times of the Depression and World War II. My friends and I typically all have parents or other relatives like this, where they couldn't throw anything out because you might need it some day. Everything was stockpiled. It's a running gag which I even heard in a comedy routine about how "Mom's got cupboards full of paper bags -- it's a fire hazard!" Twist ties, rubber bands, old jars, and so on . . . man.