I see flaws in Steve's reasoning for SR and IM

[Tanner]

I was impressed with how practical Steve's model of a subjective, one-consciousness, reality seemed, so I've been thinking a lot about it lately.

At first I thought I would take his recommendation to try some intention-manifestation(IM) and see how it works, but as Steve said, in order for IM to work you have to truly believe the intention will come true. To do that, I would need to truly believe in subjective reality(SR). This is because SR is the only model of reality in which IM could work (see SR podcast for Steve's excellent reasoning on this claim). So, I concluded that I must first explore the possibility of SR before exploring IM.

Okay, so Like Steve, I started with what I truly knew, which is that I am having certain experiences and sensing certain things. I think my train of thought when considering other people was the exact same as his: My experiences suggest that there are other people and that they are human just like me. They seem to have thoughts and emotions just like me, and I even sometimes experience a spiritual connectedness with other people (sensing consciousness). But I don't know for sure if they are real; I suppose they could in fact be just projections of my counsciousness.

So do other people have their own consciousness or are they just projections of mine? Well, since I have nothing to suggest they are projections of my consciousness, the most probable answer is that they have their own consciousness, because that is what my experiences suggest. Steve had the perception of successful IM experiences to use as a suggestion that reality is subjective, and that other people are therefore projections of his consciousness, but as I've shown, there is an inherent flaw in using IM without first believing in SR. (It isn't possible to do.)

I think Steve's successes are more attributable to the law of attraction(LoA). This is something I already use in my life to great effect, but it doesn't lead me to a subjective reality. There are many explanations for it. (It gives me a healthy outlook on life, keeps me focused and I therefore get good results. It is very useful because all your thoughts truly have an impact on your psyche and perception of reality. Also, the so called "synchronicities" could be a result of God helping us along on the right path, or they really could be just coincidences (our brains might just underestimate how common coincidences really are))

One last thing: I take issue with the dream argument I see being used to support the possibility of subjective reality. People say that since our consciousness can create life-like sequences in dreams, it should also be able to produce our complex daily experiences. I think this is wrong because dreams are always made up of images from your daily experiences. Although the mind does a lot of mixing and matching of different objects, places, people etc., it never actually creates something truly new in a dream. (It could even picture a person with a goat's head, but that still isn't creating something new) In reality we do see completely new things, like for example a totally new animal species unlike anything we could have imagined.

Please let me know what you think of my reasoning! Also check my profile to see some info on me and feel free to drop me a line.

[wolfgang]

To believe in your intenetions may not be the same as believing in SR. If SR makes no sense to someone, that may not interfere with IM working to some degree. Beliving strongly in anything is an attachment and makes one less flexible, even strong belief in SR! Why try to believe anything? Why this need to be convienced and be for sure? Why can't we just generate good vibes for our intenstions and allow the universe to respond? Like someone wanting to go swiming but thinking the water might be cold, but instead of touching the water to see how cold, one just sits and thinks and is paralized.

I think I have my own feelings that SR or the oneness is something to think about. Do I believe it like a hard fact? Not sure. At least saying that it's possible is enough - or saying I can't say SR is false will still allow IM to operate. (I hope)

But how different is IM than LoA? If you are saying LoA works, what makes IM fall into a different category? I always thought LoA is the statemtn or idea that IM follows. I intend and have manifestations and the law of attraction is the lip service for trying to explain how IM could be working.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Tanner

One last thing: I take issue with the dream argument I see being used to support the possibility of subjective reality. People say that since our consciousness can create life-like sequences in dreams, it should also be able to produce our complex daily experiences. I think this is wrong because dreams are always made up of images from your daily experiences.

I must emphasize that we are not talking about an ordinary dream, but about a lucid dream.

People use the lucid dream analogy to describe subjective reality, NOT because you can experience life-like events, but because in a lucid dream you are aware that you are dreaming, while all other people in your dream are trying to convince you that they are as real as you.
If you ever had a lucid dream, you know how "real" it can be.
In your lucid dream you know that you are the only real person, no matter what the other characters in your dream say.

I think that most people who have lucid dreams have no problems with accepting the subjective reality concept.

[Tanner]

Wolfgang: Thanks for the reply, I really like what you are saying, especially about not believing too strongly in anything. That helps me see I am probably just thinking about it too much. I don't think we can ever really know the true nature of reality, but I was trying to decide what is most probable. Is that pointless? Perhaps, but I still think subjective reality is less probable than objective reality (I still stand by my reasoning in the first post.)
In hindsight I suppose LoA and IM are pretty much the same thing. I was thinking of IM as a more extreme form of LoA, because it seems to guarantee that my thoughts will directly shape my reality (like magic). On the other hand I saw LoA as a way to improve our focus, attitudes and perceptions so that our actions are more effective. That's not really accurate though because LoA holds me accountable for everything in the world including babies burning in housefires and starving children in Africa. I think it totally undermines the serious issues facing our world if we decide they can be fixed by our thoughts.

[Tanner]

Frans: Thanks to you as well because that totally cleared up the dream thing. There are some people on here talking about normal dreams though.

[Markus74]

Of course there are obvious flaws in those theories. Although believers, as in all belief systems, decided to ignore them.

[Tanner]

To Frans: Hmmm... that still leaves me wondering if my consciousness is actually able to create such complex experiences... I better get practicing lucid dreaming!

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Frans

I think that most people who have lucid dreams have no problems with accepting the subjective reality concept.

And so the best thing you could do in your subjective reality is posting on a forum?

[Brutha]

Originally Posted by Markus74

And so the best thing you could do in your subjective reality is posting on a forum?

It helps to sort the thoughts in your own head

[Paul C]

Originally Posted by Markus74

Of course there are obvious flaws in those theories.

Only to your current perceptions. So in a way, you could say it's the flaws within all our perceptions of the world which we strive to eliminate. Although, some people do enjoy holding onto certain 'flaws' within their own minds (the assumption that there is seperation, belittling thought patterns, self-destruction of inner and outer world, etc, etc).

Originally Posted by Markus74

Although believers, as in all belief systems, decided to ignore them.

You're not exempt from this statement either. Also, you assume that everyone else 'ignores' these 'flaws'. But that is to be expected, because that is your perspective.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by Frans

I must emphasize that we are not talking about an ordinary dream, but about a lucid dream.

People use the lucid dream analogy to describe subjective reality, NOT because you can experience life-like events, but because in a lucid dream you are aware that you are dreaming, while all other people in your dream are trying to convince you that they are as real as you.
If you ever had a lucid dream, you know how "real" it can be.
In your lucid dream you know that you are the only real person, no matter what the other characters in your dream say.

I think that most people who have lucid dreams have no problems with accepting the subjective reality concept.

I had this problem after coming out of a salvia trip(not sure if I am out or not =/) Once I came out I was sure I was still tripping, still in a dream...but maybe I was ALWAYS still in a dream. Maybe that is all reality is, a dream within a dream within a dream...infinity. My family, friends all of them trying to convince me they are real and they lead lives and this isn't a dream... But of course this is what is going to be told to me because my ego doesn't want me to wake up. Well my ego is a mofo and he doesn't want me to wake up(if I wake up he's gone I think). So THIS dream has seeming continuity. Rules and limits...but I see that every moment of everyday is recycling. I see synchronicities everyday(now that I look for them) things I think of or see or hear I will see in friends, on tv, on the radio...everything connects up to create whatever I see at whatever moment...I am in some kind of loop but there is the illusion that it isn't a loop cuz things "change" but they don't REALLY change, it is all the same ************. Another thing that freaks me out is it seems everytime I have an experience and come up with some kind of weird theory I come online and theres the theory...someone else already came up with it...or did they...or did it appear once I thought it? This shits very hard to put into words but what does it matter...just sitting here talking to myself anyways.