Wow, this is hard.

[tedswhinebar]

Okay, I see where you're all coming from with this but, what if everybody wants something different. Take a board of directors for example at a board and they all secretly want a different outcome to a very important decision. What if they all practice IM.

I have tried this IM train of thought for a long time and had no success of whatsoever. I watched The Secret and was facinated but putting it into practice is something else entirely.

So, I suppose my question is, how does it work for some and not for others. I'm a good person, kind, considerate, somewhat spiritual, and I work hard. It's just not happening though.

I know the theory is to really believe but ther will always be that little voice lurking in the background asking if this is really working. Won't there?

[nightdiamond]

Originally Posted by ;194921

I know the theory is to really believe but ther will always be that little voice lurking in the background asking if this is really working. Won't there?

Hi tedswhinebar how are you......

Yes, and it's perfectly normal, I think tedswhinebar, after all you are attempting either "think" or visualize something happening and then expect it to happen...if you are doing this for the very first time, wouldn't you expect a little doubt?

My approach is to be kind to yourself on this one, since doubt is natural and there isn't a need to struggle against it when you can dissolve it, or at least most of it.

May I ask what you were trying to "attract" or manifest? Knowing exactly what it is can give myself and the other posters here an insight into what you are trying to do and give better clearer advice...

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by tedswhinebar

Okay, I see where you're all coming from with this but, what if everybody wants something different. Take a board of directors for example at a board and they all secretly want a different outcome to a very important decision. What if they all practice IM.

Firstly I wish to assure you that I am not insane. I am a very sane, very coherent person. However, if you are not used to the kind of concepts I am about to mention, you might easily conclude that I am crazy.

Anyway, here is the explanation.

Begin with this proposition - "Reality is an illusion". For further details you may wish to investigate quantum physics, where you will discover that everything in the universe is basically no more sub-atomic particles rapidly blinking in and out of existence.

The next proposition is - "Reality is an illusion created by your own mind". For further details you may wish to investigate Buddhism, and also that theory in quantum physics known as the "consciousness causes collapse" theory.

Now move on to the next proposition, which you would have encountered in that DVD which you watched - "Everything in your reality was drawn into it by your thoughts."

What does that mean? Adopt the perspective of one director. If you are one of the directors, you will see, as you look around the boardroom, five other directors. They seem to be people quite separate from you; they appear to have their own thoughts, opinions and personalities.

However, all of them were drawn into your reality by your own thoughts. Effectively you created all of them.

Now, "you" may desire a certain outcome from the meeting.

However, every other director may desire a different outcome.

However, every other director was created by your own thoughts.

Therefore, if any of them resists your desired outcome, and tries to engineer a different outcome, that person actually represents some aspect of your own consciousness which does NOT want that outcome.

To put it another way, whatever resistance or opposition you encounter in your external reality is merely a reflection of some resistance or opposition within your inner reality.

This will often be difficult to accept. For example, you may be very certain that you desire a certain outcome X, but you see that there is another director who desires a completely opposite outcome Y. And you will ask yourself, "Surely there is no part of me that desires the outcome Y."

Well, here I will refer you to research Sigmund Freud's iceberg model of human consciousness. What you will see, if you examine this theory, is that your conscious mind is the smallest part of your consciousness. In comparison your subconscious and unconscious minds are much larger.

And what this means is that most of the time, what you are really thinking about is unknown to you. In other words, it's unconscious. Therefore it is dangerous to leap quickly to the conclusion that "Surely there is no part of me that desires the outcome Y."

Now, back to the boardroom. The six directors debate and discuss and argue and squabble. Eventually a decision / outcome is reached. It reflects, to different extents, the opinions and views expressed by each director - depending on various factors like how forcefully he argued it; how much influence he has over the others etc etc.

HOWEVER, as each director is created by your thoughts, the final decision / outcome is a perfect reflection of your own thoughts.

This brings us to another fairly ultimate sort of LOA proposition. "Your reality is always a perfect reflection of your thoughts." Because there really isn't anything such as an "external" influence on your reality. Although there are people, forces and circumstances that appear to be "external" and "separate" from you, they are all ultimately created by your thoughts.

[dave marshall]

it may be helpful to accept, in the way described by ALG above, that we each create and perceive our own personal reality as part of a broader reality.

To take your ananolgy of the directors, we have presumed in the past that there is one world, one reality and that world is separate to us, however this is not true, each of those directors experiences (within the five senses) their own construction of thoughts, their own reality, personal reality. No-one else will see, experience, taste,touch or hear what happens within your reality, you are the only one creating and experience your construction. This means of course there are as many realities as there are people and but that once again is just human experience we are discussing, each cell, each atom also creates its own experience, each tree, flower. This is not limited to human consciousness and of course if we expand this a little more, not every one will have a human experience within reality as there are limtiless numbers of realities.

Back to this experience then..

As you alone view your own reality you are contrustcting in through thoughts and emotions: reality then is a 'thought' construction that you and only you perceive. Beyond the five senses you can perceive another's reality but within the five senses you cannot.

If you have understood what I have said (if I said it right) you will begin to realise that you create your own personal reality. I would add here that you do not create reality itself, but you do create the reality you perceive and as ALG stated the big realisation is that each person, each event represents an aspect, an idea of yourself, being played out. therefor to gain the reality that you want you must remove your limtiing ideas about yourself and indoing so your reality will provide what you desire.

The idea of personal realities and experiencing only your reality, does open rather large can of worms about free will and relationships and alot more..

This could be rather a large and complex and fun thread.

Dave

[Frans]

ALG, you put a lot of time and energy in this forum and many times you answer the same questions over and over again.
So, here's my suggestion: why don't you write a book about subjective reality/LoA/I-M?

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Adopt the perspective of one director. If you are one of the directors, you will see, as you look around the boardroom, five other directors. They seem to be people quite separate from you; they appear to have their own thoughts, opinions and personalities.

However, all of them were drawn into your reality by your own thoughts. Effectively you created all of them.

To put it another way, whatever resistance or opposition you encounter in your external reality is merely a reflection of some resistance or opposition within your inner reality.
...
Now, back to the boardroom. The six directors debate and discuss and argue and squabble. Eventually a decision / outcome is reached. It reflects, to different extents, the opinions and views expressed by each director - depending on various factors like how forcefully he argued it; how much influence he has over the others etc etc.
..
HOWEVER, as each director is created by your thoughts, the final decision outcome is a perfect reflection of your own thoughts.

ALG, I don’t think I can agree with that subjective reality viewpoint in its entirety.
I agree with Dave M in that we all have our own unique experience and that there are many realities.

When another person enters my presence (or even if I think of them), my experience/reality changes.

If you picture two circles overlapping and shade in the overlapping area – that is where there is an interchange of realities. What comes into that area from another person I can’t always control, but I can control how I react to it.

If we have a larger group of people (the directors, for example), then we have an overlapping area containing some of each person’s experience/reality along with their intentions. This is where the potential battlefield of wills lies. Is my will power and powers of persuasion in this common area greater than theirs?

I don’t believe I am creating the directors. I am contributing to the existence and reality of that overlapping area of shared experience, and it is down to my own abilities how well my intentions dominate within that area.

It may well turn out that another director gets his way, and I later realize that it was in my best interest anyway (a better pay deal than I originally envisaged, for example).

If we extend the group to include the whole of the planet, then we can see there is a massive overlapping area of shared experience from billions of circles/people which constitutes the everyday reality we normally know.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

This brings us to another fairly ultimate sort of LOA proposition. "Your reality is always a perfect reflection of your thoughts." Because there really isn't anything such as an "external" influence on your reality. Although there are people, forces and circumstances that appear to be "external" and "separate" from you, they are all ultimately created by your thoughts.

This would explain why you have no fear of posting your intentions and successes here, while many others do.

[Bene]

If I am responsible for absolutely 100% of my reality... thats just mind boggling... if thats true. Its just such a massive responsibility.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

ALG, I don’t think I can agree with that subjective reality viewpoint in its entirety.
I agree with Dave M in that we all have our own unique experience and that there are many realities.

You are right. And so am I.

And the reason why we're both right has got to do with the observer effect. Your explanation is right if we adopt a certain perspective; and my explanation is right if we adopt another perspective; and there is actually a wide range of different perspectives that could be taken, and therefore a wide range of possible right explanations.

Remember - for one particular perspective, we're all one with everything else in the universe. Not only am I God, but so are you.

When another person enters my presence (or even if I think of them), my experience/reality changes.

If you picture two circles overlapping and shade in the overlapping area – that is where there is an interchange of realities. What comes into that area from another person I can’t always control, but I can control how I react to it.

That all depends on the observer's perspective.

It doesn't follow that a thing in your reality that "you" cannot control is therefore not drawn into your reality by yourself.

I put "you" in quotation marks, because "you" itself is a fluid definition.

As a matter of fact, since most people have quite limited control of their thoughts, and have plenty of random thoughts arising in their minds all day long, it is completely unsurprising that there are many seemingly random and uncontrollable aspects of their reality.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

You are right. And so am I.

And the reason why we're both right has got to do with the observer effect. Your explanation is right if we adopt a certain perspective; and my explanation is right if we adopt another perspective; and there is actually a wide range of different perspectives that could be taken, and therefore a wide range of possible right explanations.

Remember - for one particular perspective, we're all one with everything else in the universe. Not only am I God, but so are you.

ALG, I understand your perspective, but I am curious to know how you decide whether to let something into your reality or not. At first sight, something may seem undesirable and you block it out, but it could be something which might have turned out to be a blessing in disguise.

In your directors scenario, do the individual directors have free will? Does your will always prevail in producing the final outcome? If so, and you are taking a God perspective, then are we your creatures who always act according to your will? If reality is an illusion in the mind (as you have stated), are we just part of your illusion?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

ALG, I understand your perspective, but I am curious to know how you decide whether to let something into your reality or not. At first sight, something may seem undesirable and you block it out, but it could be something which might have turned out to be a blessing in disguise.

Ah well, a dilemma. However it afflicts those who have never heard of LOA, as well as those who have.

I'm sure you've heard that story about the farmer who found a horse; and then his son rode the horse and fell off and broke his leg etc etc.

As you may know, I recently manifested a new job. When I accepted it, I believed that it was better than my old job in XYZ ways. Then I started wondering - instead of taking this new job, could I not instead have manifested my old job to improve in XYZ ways?

Oh well. Whatever. The good thing about LOA is that you can always start from right where you are, to make things (whatever things) better. So no regrets. Regrets are for when you've missed the chance for something nice , and the chance is gone for good. But with LOA, you can always make something new that's nice.

In your directors scenario, do the individual directors have free will?

Yes, of course. In my reality, all people have free will, although most of them don't use it very well. Most of the time they are asleep and functioning via conditioned responses; automated reactions; and unconscious motivations.

I am more awake than most people, but still asleep much more often than I am awake. Still working on it. I know you are too.

Does your will always prevail in producing the final outcome?

Nope. But I'm working on it.

No, more seriously, it's important to understand that reality is illusion - and even when you successfully manifest your intentions, the outcome is just another illusion, albeit one that is pleasing to you.

One effect of the reality illusion is that we tend to believe that things are permanent and have some kind of inherent existence - this leads to attachment (we attach, because we think that the thing really exists and we want it) and ultimately we suffer, when the thing falls away.

It has to fall away. The truth is - everything is impermanent. Nothing can be permanent, because thought is always in flux, and therefore reality is changing all the time.

So the real trick (and I'm still learning this one) is to enjoy what you've manifested, while it lasts. And the best way to enjoy what you've manifested is complete presence in the Now.

A tough one, as you know, because the reality illusion is so distracting.

If so, and you are taking a God perspective, then are we your creatures who always act according to your will?

Nah. I respect your free will. Also, I need you all to run around and do your bit to keep my reality functioning smoothly and happily. And I don't have enough mindpower to consciously direct all events and people in my life, no way. So you guys need to have your own will, an exercise the initiative to do your own thing.

If reality is an illusion in the mind (as you have stated), are we just part of your illusion?

Yes of course, Cantando. And I'm part of yours too.

In the end, we're the same God, remember?

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

No, more seriously, it's important to understand that reality is illusion - and even when you successfully manifest your intentions, the outcome is just another illusion, albeit one that is pleasing to you.

One effect of the reality illusion is that we tend to believe that things are permanent and have some kind of inherent existence - this leads to attachment (we attach, because we think that the thing really exists and we want it) and ultimately we suffer, when the thing falls away.

It has to fall away. The truth is - everything is impermanent. Nothing can be permanent, because thought is always in flux, and therefore reality is changing all the time.

Yes, I agree with that, ALG. I’ve been thinking along similar lines over the last few days – that my current reality is illusion, and if I don’t like, I just have to swap it for a better one (using LoA or another such tool). We can simply let go of one illusion and allow another one to take its place. And, as you say, we shouldn’t get too hung up and attached to our current one, as it is impermanent and subject to change.

I suspect some of us may be having problems because of this. We think our current situation is totally real and we give ourselves a headache trying to visualize a better situation which we insist is totally real also. So we have an irresistable force meeting an irresistable object type situation.

[Acting Like Godot]

Yup ... Very often, doubt isn't anything more than the false belief in the permanence of things. For example, John Smith has a terrible case of pimples and acne and eczema and he wants to manifest healthy skin for himself, but he doubts that this is possible. He doubts, because his ugly skin seems so ... real ... and has been bad for so many years ... Could it really change?

Of course it can. His skin is changing every moment. Skin cells are dying everyday and being replaced by new skin cells. Every five weeks, John Smith has a brand new skin (his skeleton takes a little longer - about three months). The permanence of his skin is an illusion - in fact, the permanence of "John Smith" is an illusion. Every moment, John Smith is dying so that he can be created anew.

John Smith at age 35 is no longer the same John Smith at age 10. It's not just physical size or appearance - it's the personality, the habits, the memories, the abilities etc. When exactly did each change happen? You cannot pin down a particular day, week, or month. The simple truth is that John Smith is dying every moment, and a new John Smith is being created every moment.

When you see that nothing is permanent, and that everything is in endless flux, you see that change is already inevitable, and then many of the doubts fall away, and the challenge for the LOA practitioner is then to use his mind to guide the change, in the desired direction, towards the desired outcome.

[dave marshall]

I like this phrase from the above post as it does convey the role of the conscious creator very well. It does take time to be convinced that all this is real and true and that the nature of reality is not physical in sense that we have been taught.

Guiding change is a geat way to think about what we have to do whilst recognising that it is ourselves we are guiding, forming ourselves into becoming who we want to be.

Dave

[jawillie]

I am so glad I found this forum. You people are awesome. I love reading your threads and insights. That's all I wanted to say.

[Wax Frog]

Originally Posted by jawillie

I am so glad I found this forum. You people are awesome. I love reading your threads and insights. That's all I wanted to say.

Agree 100%. Please don't go away any time soon! (Often I have to fight the urge to cheer, "Godot, Go!" )

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Wax Frog

Agree 100%. Please don't go away any time soon! (Often I have to fight the urge to cheer, "Godot, Go!" )

I'll second that emotion! The insight I find on this forum is marvelous!

[dave marshall]

hi,

just to go back to the original thought, wow this is hard.........

please remember that even with all these deep and meaningful conepts and ideas there are only three things you really need to do to create a great life and use the loa effectively and that is to:

learn to love yourself as much as you possibly can, learn to feel great everyday, beleive in yourself as much as you possible can. If you do those things, which are not very hard really, you can and will create a wonderful life for yourself, your family and the world that you take part in,

you only have to change one person, you. and you can do it........

dave

[Lauxa]

Well, the theory is not so much to believe as to get more conscious control over your thoughts. The voice that says "wow, is this really gonna work?" is not nearly so damaging as the voice complaining about how much you hate your current situation, the voice worrying about your future situation, the voice reminiscing about past injustices done to you, or the voice beating you up for past mistakes you have made. When you get rid of those voices, IM will start working for you.

[Jross22]

Nunya.

It is none of your business. (Right now, anyhow.)

Really. Who cares how LoA might answer your wishes?

As a practical matter, never design an intention to interfere with anybody's specific intentions*. Instead, design intentions that are flexible to other peoples roles. Just as you wouldn't create a business plan that says, "In the role of Manager, Joe Blow must do X Y Z. Failing that, we'll tear up the entire plan and send the enforcers..."

Instead, "The manager must do X Y Z. Pencil in Joe Blow, I think he might be excellent for this job..."

Similarly, you and the other three executives might end up in three thriving businesses. Actually the third exec will end up completely out of big business and spending his days blissfully designing landscaping. That, as I said, is none of your business right now.


* One usually would add, "Unless the person's intentions are spiteful and vengeful." But hey, it occurs to me that if one of my life lessons gives somebody a big buzz of schadenfreude, as long as I'm OK it's no skin off my nose.