Power of Now vs Law of Attraction

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

I just clicked that link and read it...but i must have missed something because I don't see where Steve gives any reasons why we need the ego. He talked about using it to help the greater good of humanity,but why can't you do that without an ego? I would think it would work BETTER actually.

Here's a succinct answer that Tolle gives to this question.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

I just clicked that link and read it...but i must have missed something because I don't see where Steve gives any reasons why we need the ego. He talked about using it to help the greater good of humanity,but why can't you do that without an ego? I would think it would work BETTER actually.

Yes, I think you might have missed the point in the article. Steve talks about why we need the ego or, better yet, why it's useful to us, all throughout the article. Just to give a couple of examples:

All human beings are individual cells in the larger body of humanity. For humanity to survive and thrive (either as physical or spiritual beings), we as individuals must align ourselves with the greatest good of all, but we must also tend to our individual needs. We need to function well at both levels of awareness.

If you think about it, this is really the only sustainable approach in the long run. When you behave selfishly at the expense of others, you create resistance and lose a lot of help and support. If you sacrifice your own needs to help others, eventually you have to stop helping people in order to handle the personal problems that have accumulated due to neglect.

Are you sure that what you are referring to as "ego" is the same concept we are talking about here?

Don't get me wrong, I think that Tolle's book is full of incredible insights and I extracted a lot of value from it, but to me it just doesn't make any sense to kill the ego. Not identifying with the ego makes sense to the extent that you perceive yourself as part of a larger consciousness or consciousness itself, but killing the ego robs us of our individual human perspective. (To quote Tolle from the book: "We call it egoic because there is a sense of self, of I (ego), in every thought – every memory, every interpretation, opinion, viewpoint, reaction, emotion."). And without our individual perspectives and thoughts and ideas, how do we even contribute to the greater good when those perspectives, thoughts and ideas are part of the ego? Even wanting to make a difference in the world, in itself, is egoic. Realizing that you are not the thoughts and ideas that move you is dis-identification with ego and that's fine by me, but killing the ego is destroying the individual perspective that we experience as human beings. We can recognize ourselves as part of a larger consciousness or consciousness itself while at the same time keeping our individual perspectives as human beings, without which the physical experience loses purpose.

But anyway, killing the ego is one of the contradictions between what the Power of Now and the Law of Attraction teach. That was the point I was trying to make, based on the original purpose of the thread. I don't even mean to defend one or the other, like I said in a previous post, each person needs to find out for themselves what makes sense to them and what doesn't, but the point remains that there are contradictions between the two.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

Here's a succinct answer that Tolle gives to this question.

Thanks for the link. It makes it easier to point out the distinctions/contradictions:

When you enjoy the present moment, the future outcome is not of primary importance.

This is in total alignment with LoA - detachment and art of allowing.

Ego induced activities reduce the present moment to a means to an end and are therefore stressful and ultimately frustrating.

This goes against the idea that we should "enjoy the ride" on the way to manifestation and "ultimately frustrating" seems like a very pessimistic way of seeing things. Why is it ultimately frustrating? Because once you get where you want to be (manifestation) a new desire will arise and you'll never be satisfied? Well, that contradicts Abraham Hicks teachings entirely. "You can never get it right and you'll never get it done". I personally enjoy the ever renewing desires. To me, this is not stressful or frustrating at all. I actually find it really exciting! Or my egoic perspective does.

[Rockchick26]

Yeah,we need to function at both levels of awareness,but those levels are universal and individual,i dont see where the ego HAS to be there for either one to work together. yeah,wanting to help the world is an INTENTION for the FUTURE,but,wanting to help the world can only start within yourself! Without that you go nowhere to start with! I wouldn't want a bunch of angry,jealous or depressed people out there trying to change or fix things,we already have enough of that in the government I really think you can help others more successfully,totally selflessly,AND still be in the moment free of ego. I think it would be easy to work towards the greater good while still not having an ego. Maybe i'm only seeing the bad side of the ego right now...because to me,wanting something GOOD isnt that egoic. I just want to get rid of the bad parts of the ego which creates jealousy,anger,greed,etc. But cant we have the good side of the ego too,the side that wants to help others? I mean,isnt that what Tolle himself is doing by writing these books for us?

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Patricia

This goes against the idea that we should "enjoy the ride" on the way to manifestation and "ultimately frustrating" seems like a very pessimistic way of seeing things. Why is it ultimately frustrating? Because once you get where you want to be (manifestation) a new desire will arise and you'll never be satisfied? Well, that contradicts Abraham Hicks teachings entirely. "You can never get it right and you'll never get it done". I personally enjoy the ever renewing desires. To me, this is not stressful or frustrating at all. I actually find it really exciting! Or my egoic perspective does.

lol This is so fascinating learning about all this...now,it almost seems to me that using the law of attraction is selfish! And both ideas are completely opposite,one is saying we deserve abundance,and the other is saying that we are closer to our true selves and God if we dont have anything! What could you possibly try to manifest using the LoA that isn't associated with the ego,that you can't already get just by being alive? Maybe shelter,food and water,which are the only 3 things we REALLY need when you get down to it.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

lol This is so fascinating learning about all this...now,it almost seems to me that using the law of attraction is selfish!

Using the LoA is not necessarily selfish. This brings us back the the idea of polarities in a way, it's in how you use it and what you try to manifest and why. However, the ideas of things to manifest come from the ego. Ego and selfishness are two different things. I think you might still be mixing up the two concepts.

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

And both ideas are completely opposite,one is saying we deserve abundance,and the other is saying that we are closer to our true selves and God if we dont have anything! What could you possibly try to manifest using the LoA that isn't associated with the ego,that you can't already get just by being alive? Maybe shelter,food and water,which are the only 3 things we REALLY need when you get down to it.

The ideas are not completely opposite, they overlap in some ways, but there are contradictions too. The Power of Now doesn't state that we are closer to ourselves and God if we don't have anything, what Tolle says is that true and sustainable happiness and peace can only be obtained by letting go of the ego and not thinking that what you have or what you are in this physical life is your real identity. In other words, you can have abundance and everything you want, as long as you don't tie your identity to these things. So, you could buy a brand new expensive car and a house and become famous, but if you realize that the real you isn't the rich famous person who has a cool car and a big house, you are successfully dissociating from the ego and on your way to true and sustainable happiness and peace, according to Tolle. The same example applies to making the world a better place and contributing for the greater good in a selfless way, as long as you don't define your identity as "the selfless person who's making the wold better".

The contradiction is in the fact that wanting these things is egoic (not selfish, egoic, meaning it comes from the structure of the ego). Without the ego, you won't want a new car OR a better world.

And by the way, LoA teachers will argue that even having water, food and shelter are things you attract/manifest. Not everyone has water, food and shelter, trust me.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

Yeah,we need to function at both levels of awareness,but those levels are universal and individual,i dont see where the ego HAS to be there for either one to work together. yeah,wanting to help the world is an INTENTION for the FUTURE,but,wanting to help the world can only start within yourself! Without that you go nowhere to start with! I wouldn't want a bunch of angry,jealous or depressed people out there trying to change or fix things,we already have enough of that in the government I really think you can help others more successfully,totally selflessly,AND still be in the moment free of ego. I think it would be easy to work towards the greater good while still not having an ego. Maybe i'm only seeing the bad side of the ego right now...because to me,wanting something GOOD isnt that egoic. I just want to get rid of the bad parts of the ego which creates jealousy,anger,greed,etc. But cant we have the good side of the ego too,the side that wants to help others? I mean,isnt that what Tolle himself is doing by writing these books for us?

Like I said, I think you're still confusing ego with selfishness. But if you want to kill your ego because you believe that's a better way to make a difference in the world, then that's absolutely fine. Just remember that when you have changed the world for the better, feeling happy and proud that you did it and saying to yourself "Wow, look at what I did, I'm a good person", this will be the egoic mind talking. You are not the good person who changed the world, your real identity is the consciousness observing the person who made these changes. If you can make that distinction, according to Tolle, you will be happy and peaceful.

[Acting Like Godot]

You can actually regard the Power of Now as a a highly advanced form of time management.

If you read any conventional time management book, it will likely give you advice along the following lines:

(a) every day, make a list all the things you need to do;
(b) organise all these tasks according to their priority;
(c) concentrate fully on the most important High Priority task first;
(d) while working on it, ignore all else
(e) when that task is done, move to the next highest-ranking task.

The Power of Now is quite similar. Except that instead of using a "day", you use "now". You concentrate fully on what is immediately before you, right now. If you can do something about it, you do something about it. If you cannot do anything about it, you do not waste energy worrying about it and simply move on to something else.

Procrastination, in fact, is a prime example of resistance to the Now. Eg there is something you need to do, but it's unpleasant, so you RESIST doing it, and give yourself excuses to put it off to another time, and another time, and another time.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Patricia

This goes against the idea that we should "enjoy the ride" on the way to manifestation and "ultimately frustrating" seems like a very pessimistic way of seeing things. Why is it ultimately frustrating? Because once you get where you want to be (manifestation) a new desire will arise and you'll never be satisfied? Well, that contradicts Abraham Hicks teachings entirely. "You can never get it right and you'll never get it done". I personally enjoy the ever renewing desires. To me, this is not stressful or frustrating at all. I actually find it really exciting! Or my egoic perspective does.

In LOA, you start out believing you have already received what you want. The actual means of how you will manifest something are left up to the Universe for the most part.

My conclusion back on page one of this thread was that your intention (or attention) exists in the present moment. So in order to manifest, you have to be in this moment. And then, once you are truly present, whatever you focus upon, that's where you are going. Or, better yet, whatever you focus upon, that's what is coming to you.

In another thread "Intention is your being?" Acting Like Godot said there were three levels of manifestation: doing, having and being. In my opinion, one starts with being. Like for example, one might say "I am a carpenter". The next level is having, ie acquiring the tools of a carpenter. And the third level is doing, the practice of being a carpenter. Along with this idea, I think you have to intend what you are, not what you were or what you will become.

There's something about tapping into this moment of being. I think it's key.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

There's something about tapping into this moment of being. I think it's key.

I agree.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

In LOA, you start out believing you have already received what you want. The actual means of how you will manifest something are left up to the Universe for the most part.

......So in order to manifest, you have to be in this moment. And then, once you are truly present, whatever you focus upon, that's where you are going. Or, better yet, whatever you focus upon, that's what is coming to you.

Exactly mercury.

To add to that, LOA actually gets thrown out the door, in a way. The reason I say this is.......you then get to the point where you realize LOA is more intimate to you then breathing. It is what one is.

The "eternal" Now moment is you continually regenerating a "past" and a future.
The trick is being aware of this 24/7.


One then becomes what one really is, which is a Center "Zero" point, continually sloughing off "time" from itself.

[wolfgang]

I didn't get that Tolle suggests getting rid of, or killing the ego. That part I thought I got was to watch out for "identification with form". Of which ego is a form - a bunch of thought structures, if you will.

So then, there's an overlap possible.

LoA says to detach from your desires.
Tolle says release identification with form.

Maybe those statements are the same idea, just with different words.

I think the parts that contradict between LoA and Tolle are the parts of LoA that were "distorted" to make people want to buy the material. Like hooking people into thinking they can get what they want, by just thinking a certain way. That the real LoA needs to be seen from the point of Being anyway before one becomes a grand manifester. And once in Being, you can desire with your heart and it works out. Desire from the mind, is difficult. imho...

[livingthedream]

Part of the process with the Law of Attraction is to conceive what you want, visualise, emotionalise your end result then let it go.

To continually focus on what you don't have yet only attracts more of not having it yet.

Being present in the now means when the opportunity or event that will materialise your intentions presents itself , you will recognise it and grab it with both hands.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I didn't get that Tolle suggests getting rid of, or killing the ego. That part I thought I got was to watch out for "identification with form". Of which ego is a form - a bunch of thought structures, if you will.

So then, there's an overlap possible.

He does speak mostly about not identifying with form, but in the webcasts he talks about killing the ego. I can't remember if this is in the book as well, I'd have to check. But I think that these are two very different things. Not identifying with form/ego is good and useful and it makes sense to me. Killing the ego, not so much, imho.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I think the parts that contradict between LoA and Tolle are the parts of LoA that were "distorted" to make people want to buy the material. Like hooking people into thinking they can get what they want, by just thinking a certain way. That the real LoA needs to be seen from the point of Being anyway before one becomes a grand manifester. And once in Being, you can desire with your heart and it works out. Desire from the mind, is difficult. imho...

You're spot on when you say that desires need to come from a state of Being. Very good point!

However, going for material things isn't all that the LoA is about necessarily and this perceived distortion is what people want to hear, not what everyone is teaching (although, admittedly, some are certainly capitalizing on that). The Secret, for instance, has been criticized for its "focus on money" and even though the movie is far from perfect, people just WANT to emphasize the part about money when in reality The Secret is divided into "The secret to health", "The secret to the World", "The secret to you", "The secret to Relationships", etc, AND "The Secret to Wealth - or money", but people seem to forget or not notice that. I don't think it's been distorted, at least not by most of those who are teaching - but maybe by many who are learning or many of those who want to criticize the LoA. I think that money is just something that a lot of people are after and choose to use the LoA in that direction.

But whatever the case, whether someone's intentions are about money or not, the process is the same. I think this overlap between LoA and Tolle that you pointed out (creation from a state of Being as opposed to creation from the mind) is key. And it reminds me of Steve's podcast entitled "Faster Goal Achievement" in which he says (paraphrasing): "What kind of person would have already accomplished that? Become that person". It's not exactly the same thing you're describing, but it's a very similar concept.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by livingthedream

Part of the process with the Law of Attraction is to conceive what you want, visualise, emotionalise your end result then let it go.

To continually focus on what you don't have yet only attracts more of not having it yet.

Being present in the now means when the opportunity or event that will materialise your intentions presents itself , you will recognise it and grab it with both hands.

Nice points, living.
(I like your nickname, Btw.
Straight to the fooking point !)

I'd add, Being in the present means you have thrown away two useless words. "Past" and "Future".

You then become what you really are, a continual Self referencing point.......continually referencing upon itself.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Cantando

I don't think I agree with that. If you really wanted to be a great artist, you would start painting now, regardless of your circumstances. If you are having a vision (or, rather, a daydream), it remains a vision.

Many great artists lived in poverty. The weren't interested in their physical needs, they just did what their souls compelled them to do, whether they were successful or not, whether they were recognized or not. They didn't jus dream about it, while they were washing dishes.

To be 'great' at anything, you have to live and breathe it with a passion.

You're not disagreeing with him. You're misunderstanding him.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Patricia

Using the LoA is not necessarily selfish. This brings us back the the idea of polarities in a way, it's in how you use it and what you try to manifest and why. However, the ideas of things to manifest come from the ego. Ego and selfishness are two different things. I think you might still be mixing up the two concepts.

I guess i have problems keeping them seperate because in the book he says anytime you want anything,that is your ego. But now i can see the difference,like wanting to take a shower isnt selfish,and wanting hunger to end isnt selfish. I just dont like how he worded that,it made it so black and white.

So, you could buy a brand new expensive car and a house and become famous, but if you realize that the real you isn't the
rich famous person who has a cool car and a big house, you are successfully dissociating from the ego and on your way to true and sustainable happiness and peace, according to Tolle.

That would be quiet the test! I cant imagine most rich and famous could dissociate themselves from their ego.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by livingthedream

Part of the process with the Law of Attraction is to conceive what you want, visualise, emotionalise your end result then let it go.

To continually focus on what you don't have yet only attracts more of not having it yet.

This must be where i go wrong. Because every night when i go to bed,i create a movie,or a story in my head,of the kind of man i want to be with. So i'm imagining that we ARE together. I guess thats the wrong way to go about it,i should only think of it once then never again. But i have heard the opposite,that the more you focus on something,the more it will come. That's why i was so confused with the LoA,there was too many specifics but also conflicting rules,i didnt know what to do. But with Tolle's book,what i've read so far,its just a way of thinking,not specific rules you have to follow.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

This must be where i go wrong. Because every night when i go to bed,i create a movie,or a story in my head,of the kind of man i want to be with. So i'm imagining that we ARE together. I guess thats the wrong way to go about it,i should only think of it