Power of Now vs Law of Attraction

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Perhaps I shall put it another way and then it will become clear. Tolle is really advocating this;
Control your mind completely;

I don’t believe anyone can control their mind completely.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Think nothing except what you consciously choose to think about

Thoughts and feelings are constantly arising from your subconscious.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Do not ever permit any irrelevant, random or stray thoughts to arise

You can’t stop them from arising. You can try to suppress them, but they will still manifest in some form or another – as an itch, a sneeze, a pain, an illness, or whatever. However, you can choose to be disinterested in your thoughts and not to give them any weight.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Recognise that all painful memories and all fears of the future are unnecessary, since neither the past nor the future can exist except in your mind, that is, they are illusions

Standard fare – preached many times in many places over the last 3,000 years.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

When there is nothing you wish to think about, simply do not think.

Even when you are consciously choosing not to think, thoughts will still arise. A person may occasionally feel spaced out during meditation (consciousness splattered across the landscape), but it is only temporary. It would be impossible to live a normal life if one was continuously in that state.

[Geiger]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

This is an incorrect understanding of Tolle's idea. YOu can read the book to find out.

I'll admit I'm only halfway through The Power of Now - it takes a while to digest.
This thread is great for helping me with that, thanks all...

[fwellers]

Originally Posted by Geiger

I'll admit I'm only halfway through The Power of Now - it takes a while to digest.
This thread is great for helping me with that, thanks all...

I read New Earth rather quickly ( I'm sure I didn't understand it all ), but as you say, the power of Now is a much slower read. I enjoy giving the ideas time to settle in, and to practice them.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Granted, my comment was rather extreme.
Nevertheless, if an artist/musician/writer has an overriding passion for his calling, he/she just gets on with it, lives it and does it, regardless of any financial compensation or recognition within their own lifetimes. Take Van Gogh and Mozart as examples. If their physical needs are met, then fine, if they are not, that doesn't hinder them or dampen their ardour.

When you are truly present, every moment becomes beautiful. It is the revealing of that inherent beauty in all things that every artist strives for in their work. And whatever life brings you becomes your art.

I work in a machine shop. A co-worker and I both make music on the side and we were discussing how the various sounds of the different machines inspired us. I can see some great artist washing dishes at a restaurant and suddenly being inspired by the way clam chowder sticks to the side of a bowl. Or the water spots on a glass. Most stories are about regular people doing regular jobs. How can anyone know what it's like to be those people unless they are one of them?

I think you know all of this.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Cantando

We are always in the present moment. We just have to say, 'I am here, now'.

I could spin that out into a 200 page book, speak with a German accent, and sound like I am channeling something, appear on the Oprah Winfrey show, and make a lot of money, but I can't be bothered.

So, that is the content of my new PD book:

'I am here, now.'

No charge for that, by the way.

Tolle doesn't have a single new idea in his book. He just took the kernel that can be found in esoteric religion and re-packaged it for the masses. That's a good thing. There are many people that would never even go near the "Metaphysics" or "Other Religions" section of the bookstore that have read his work. Whatever it takes to get people to wake up, so be it.

I personally prefer Ram Das or Thich Nhat Han, but my girlfriend who read the entire "Left Behind" series needs to hear it from Oprah. That's cool. When it comes from me, it's something weird. From Oprah, it's palatable. I realized a long time ago that most of the human population is not like me and I don't hold it against them any more.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

When you are truly present, every moment becomes beautiful. It is the revealing of that inherent beauty in all things that every artist strives for in their work. And whatever life brings you becomes your art.

It could be argued that there is little correlation between living in the beautiful, present moment and being a great artist, in fact, quite the opposite. Many great artists (including rock musicians like Hendrix and Jim Morrison) resorted to alcohol or drugs because they couldn’t face being in the present moment. It was too painful for them

Artists have often used sufferings of the past as subject material for their work. Picasso painted an incredible, abstract painting of the bombing of the Spanish town, Guernica, by the Nazis in 1936. He was expressing the pain and suffering which he and others had felt at that time. So, no, being happy, happy, happy in the present moment, is not a prerequisite for producing great works of art.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Cantando

I don’t believe anyone can control their mind completely.

agree, trying to control the mind is what makes it hard to "control" it. the more one tries to control it the more it seems like we can't control it. if one doesn't approach the mind's thoughts as something to control, we ironically have the upper hand in a way - we become a supervisor that can direct or push the mind in a direction or select thoughts and even suggest thoughts.

Thoughts and feelings are constantly arising from your subconscious.

You can’t stop them from arising. You can try to suppress them, but they will still manifest in some form or another – as an itch, a sneeze, a pain, an illness, or whatever. However, you can choose to be disinterested in your thoughts and not to give them any weight.

one can train the mind to be a servant. we don't have to believe everything the mind thinks because a lot of it is rehash. the thoughts that come from the subconscious may be like mental noise that can be calmed down - saying they constantly arise is not a constant. Sometimes there are more thoughts from the subconscious and sometimes there are less - it varies, it is not a constant. We do have something to do with how noisy those arising thoughts are.

Standard fare – preached many times in many places over the last 3,000 years.

Even when you are consciously choosing not to think, thoughts will still arise. A person may occasionally feel spaced out during meditation (consciousness splattered across the landscape), but it is only temporary. It would be impossible to live a normal life if one was continuously in that state.

thoughts seem to come after the fact of experience. thoughts seem to be involved with defining the ego. are all thoughts verbal? if so, then thoughts are part of language and communicating and making subject and objects.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

thoughts seem to come after the fact of experience. thoughts seem to be involved with defining the ego. are all thoughts verbal? if so, then thoughts are part of language and communicating and making subject and objects.

Interesting point. I think those of us who live in the West tend to think verbally, but thoughts can also contain images and feelings.

I believe there is a two way flow. Concepts and images often arise from our subconscious without our conscious control (especially in dreams). As they filter through to the conscious mind, we try to make sense of them, by putting them in a context we understand, which may be linguistic, or it could be pictorial, auditory, or just a certain feeling.

We can also directly ask for information from the subconscious. Again, concepts and images will be yielded up to the conscious mind. If we interpret them correctly, they can be very useful. But, yes, there is a lot of random noise as well.

We can also consciously create strong, positive thoughts, which sink down into the subconscious, which have an effect there, and again, yield a response (programming the subconscious?). This is especially useful when trying to break unwanted habits and behaviour patterns.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Then this is nothing more than a misunderstanding of tolle's words. Refer to his 1st book again, especially the parts that discuss what he calls "calendar time".

Perhaps I shall put it another way and then it will become clear. Tolle is really advocating this;

Control your mind completely;

Think nothing except what you consciously choose to think about;

Do not ever permit any irrelevant, random or stray thoughts to arise;

Recognise that all painful memories and all fears of the future are unnecessary, since neither the past nor the future can exist except in your mind, that is, they are illusions;

When there is nothing you wish to think about, simply do not think.

-----

On a side note, many traditional forms of meditation are simply ways of practising presence in the now. Eg a common form of meditation is to focus your attention fully on observing your breath or a candle flame, and think NOTHING else for an hour or two.

To take dominion over the mind really is to be integrated fully - so that the functions of the mind are used in the manner they were intended. Obviously we need to remember things - that fire will burn, that bears will eat us, that lightening is dangerous - these are necessary memories to survive in this reality, what isn't necessary is worry, fear, blame, hate, and so on.

So it isn't about NOT thinking it is about "Right Thinking" which is to say that the mind is a tool for consciousness to unfurl itself, evolve, and/or expand (however you want to think of it).

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Even when you are consciously choosing not to think, thoughts will still arise. A person may occasionally feel spaced out during meditation (consciousness splattered across the landscape), but it is only temporary. It would be impossible to live a normal life if one was continuously in that state.

It's not a normal life. If you were fully in the present, you would be an enlightened person. That is how Osho, amongst others, explains it. And of course, the vast majority of human beings on this planet have not experienced enlightenment, and therefore you could say that enlightenment is "abnormal".

The closest I've come into it is doing a very deep meditation, and having the effects last two or three days (as you say, the effect is temporary). This has happened to me maybe on five, six times in my life.

What you may not be seeing, Cantando, is that it is absolutely possible to live an outwardly "normal" life in that state, and in fact live it better than before. Let me describe how it was for me, Cantando - this is my personal experience.

You DON'T become a zombie, when you're in that state, Cantando. Instead you become calm, peaceful, happy ..... and extremely, extremely intelligent, brilliant, productive & efficient.

An example - I go to work, in that state. I sit down at my desk. There is a highly technical, difficult piece of work that needs to be done.

In my "normal" state, I might procrastinate .... worry .... feel anxious ... do some of the work ... get stuck .... get distracted .... wonder if I should ask for help... and risk looking stupid ..... struggle to find the next step .... get random thoughts about whether I'd locked the front door at home, before leaving .... go for a coffee break .... work some more .... make mistakes ... think angry thoughts about why my boss assigned this piece of work to me ... work some more .... struggle to find the solution.

In the "no-thought" state, it is very different. There is no fear, no anxiety, no worry. Instead there is a formidable degree of control over my thoughts. I would decide, "Now I shall focus on getting this piece of work done." The concentration that follows is very impressive.

The focus on my thought sits squarely on the subject matter - the work itself. There is full attention to what needs to be done. There is full presence in the moment. There is no fear, worry or anxiety that I can't do the job. There is absolutely no ROOM for fear, worry or anxiety, because full mental concentration is placed on the work itself. All the ideas, solutions and correct next steps come effortlessly. Around me, colleagues are talking, people come in and out, but my concentration is unbroken, full and ... effortless. And suddenly the entire piece of work is done, in record time. And you even enjoyed it. There was great happiness in the work.

This is what I think you don't understand, Cantando. You have to experience it, to really know what it is. If you knew what it is, you would not say, "It would be impossible to live a normal life if one was continuously in that state."

[Acting Like Godot]

All of us have experienced, from time to time, what it is like to be fully in the now. For some of us, it would have happened:

1. in the midst of passionate sex;

2. while riding on a wild, crazy roller coaster ride;

3. playing a sport, eg a competitive soccer match, when you're doing your best and fully engaged

4. deep absorption in an activity you enjoy a lot (it could be, say, playing the piano; painting a picture; singing a song onstage live on 'American Idol')

5. performing some activity that demanded your full attention - eg giving a public speech; performing heart surgery; taking a penalty kick in a soccer game;

Somewhere in his book, Tolle gives the example of a cat waiting near a mousehole, with rapt attention, waiting for a mouse to emerge, waiting to pounce on it.

What Tolle is talking about is taking that kind of mental state and making it our default mental state. To be like that, fully present in the moment, whatever you are doing and wherever you are.

[uberinquisitive]

Everyone - HOLD ON!!!

The context of Tolle mentioning the washing dishes: he and Oprah were discussing this one guy, Nick, who had given Tolle a question 2 weeks earlier. Nick is a young guy in L.A., who was frustrated because he had bills to pay, and had to hold a day job. But Nick wants to be a rock star.

[uberinquisitive]

Oops, I posted too early.

Anyways, it's too complicated to totally get into everything now...but there is a difference between "great artist" as an ego role...and "great artist" as a way of Being.

So far Cantando, you're talking about great artist the ego role. Tolle is talking great artist as a way of Being. They are TOTALLY different.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Cantando

It could be argued that there is little correlation between living in the beautiful, present moment and being a great artist, in fact, quite the opposite. Many great artists (including rock musicians like Hendrix and Jim Morrison) resorted to alcohol or drugs because they couldn’t face being in the present moment. It was too painful for them

"But Are You Experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?

Not necessarily stoned, but beautiful..."

Artists have often used sufferings of the past as subject material for their work. Picasso painted an incredible, abstract painting of the bombing of the Spanish town, Guernica, by the Nazis in 1936. He was expressing the pain and suffering which he and others had felt at that time. So, no, being happy, happy, happy in the present moment, is not a prerequisite for producing great works of art.

I didn't say anything about happiness. Not everyone on this forum is as airy-fairy as you think.

About Guernica:

From the beginning, Picasso chooses not to represent the horror of Guernica in realist or romantic terms. Key figures — a woman with outstretched arms, a bull, an agonized horse — are refined in sketch after sketch, then transferred to the capacious canvas, which he also reworks several times. "A painting is not thought out and settled in advance," said Picasso. "While it is being done, it changes as one's thoughts change. And when it's finished, it goes on changing, according to the state of mind of whoever is looking at it."

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

It's not a normal life. If you were fully in the present, you would be an enlightened person. That is how Osho, amongst others, explains it. And of course, the vast majority of human beings on this planet have not experienced enlightenment, and therefore you could say that enlightenment is "abnormal".

The closest I've come into it is doing a very deep meditation, and having the effects last two or three days (as you say, the effect is temporary). This has happened to me maybe on five, six times in my life.

What you may not be seeing, Cantando, is that it is absolutely possible to live an outwardly "normal" life in that state, and in fact live it better than before. Let me describe how it was for me, Cantando - this is my personal experience.

You DON'T become a zombie, when you're in that state, Cantando. Instead you become calm, peaceful, happy ..... and extremely, extremely intelligent, brilliant, productive & efficient.

An example - I go to work, in that state. I sit down at my desk. There is a highly technical, difficult piece of work that needs to be done.

In my "normal" state, I might procrastinate .... worry .... feel anxious ... do some of the work ... get stuck .... get distracted .... wonder if I should ask for help... and risk looking stupid ..... struggle to find the next step .... get random thoughts about whether I'd locked the front door at home, before leaving .... go for a coffee break .... work some more .... make mistakes ... think angry thoughts about why my boss assigned this piece of work to me ... work some more .... struggle to find the solution.

In the "no-thought" state, it is very different. There is no fear, no anxiety, no worry. Instead there is a formidable degree of control over my thoughts. I would decide, "Now I shall focus on getting this piece of work done." The concentration that follows is very impressive.
even enjoyed it.[/B][/I] There was great happiness in the work.
...
This is what I think you don't understand, Cantando. You have to experience it, to really know what it is. If you knew what it is, you would not say, "It would be impossible to live a normal life if one was continuously in that state."

I have experienced the 'no thought' state many times in meditation and occasionally at random times during the day without warning.
It is a wonderful experience, though to be honest, I remember very little of it upon returning to mundane reality.

However, you can't go about your everyday life continuously in this state.

Every time you turn a corner, you are hit with something new, which generates new thoughts. If they are arising from your subconscious, you can observe them, but you cannot stop them.

If something knocks you on the head, can you avoid thinking about it? Can you say, 'I'm not going to permit any thought about this'. That in itself is a thought.
You can't control all your thoughts all the time.

You seem to have shifted from your original position of:

"Control your mind completely;
Think nothing except what you consciously choose to think about;
Do not ever permit any irrelevant, random or stray thoughts to arise"

to

"Instead there is a formidable degree of control over my thoughts."

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by uberinquisitive

Oops, I posted too early.

Anyways, it's too complicated to totally get into everything now...but there is a difference between "great artist" as an ego role...and "great artist" as a way of Being.

So far Cantando, you're talking about great artist the ego role. Tolle is talking great artist as a way of Being. They are TOTALLY different.

A great artist is a great artist, full stop/period. He/she may be gentle, shy and unassuming or he/she may be loud, aggressive and egotistical.

The point is - great artists have a spark of genius in them. If you don't already have that in you, no amount of visualizing or trying to be one, is going to make you great.

You talk about a great artist as a way of Being. What exactly do you mean? Can you 'be' a great artist without producing any works?

If a famous guru is broadcasting to the world and is supposedly telling the truth, then anything he says should hold up under scrutiny. Do you believe every word he says is the truth?

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

"But Are You Experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?

Not necessarily stoned, but beautiful..."

Experienced in what? Would you like a copy of my CV?
I spent the summer of 1976 living on a campsite in Amsterdam where there was an abundance of various organic and inorganic compounds. I supported myself playing guitar outside the bars and cafes on Damrak. What were you doing?

[Acting Like Godot]

Nah ... You're not understanding me correctly, that's all. Will write more later, currently typing from blackberry.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Nah ... You're not understanding me correctly, that's all. Will write more later, currently typing from blackberry.

ALG, pleeeeeeeease .... not another mega, 4 part post!! I do understand you, honest! The Blackberry's just fine!

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Experienced in what? Would you like a copy of my CV?
I spent the summer of 1976 living on a campsite in Amsterdam where there was an abundance of various organic and inorganic compounds. I supported myself playing guitar outside the bars and cafes on Damrak. What were you doing?

Being born. LOL.

Is that what that line means to you? Your credentials? Some drug? Where you were in 76? Is this supposed to prove something? Enlighten me.

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by Cantando

A great artist is a great artist, full stop/period. He/she may be gentle, shy and unassuming or he/she may be loud, aggressive and egotistical.

The point is - great artists have a spark of genius in them. If you don't already have that in you, no amount of visualizing or trying to be one, is going to make you great.

You talk about a great artist as a way of Being. What exactly do you mean? Can you 'be' a great artist without producing any works?

If a famous guru is broadcasting to the world and is supposedly telling the truth, then anything he says should hold up under scrutiny. Do you believe every word he says is the truth?

Can I pop in here?

Everyone has the potential to be "great." Everyone IS "great." Everyone IS "genius."

If they don't express it, it is because of a whole bunch of limiting beliefs. Their negativity is so thick they don't even have a clue as to what it is they could be great doing or being... they don't see the genius within.

I haven't read Power of Now, so I can't comment on that. But, I have read many other books from Deepak and Chopra to Neale Donald Walsch and others. They ALL point to how we have greatness IN us.. EVERYONE.

It is IN you, are you tapping into it? Are you allowing it to be? It is a limiting belief to say "some have it and some don't and if you don't show it by age X you obviously don't have it." I know this limiting belief well because my husband has it. He is not happy in life. He also tells me everyday, "There is nothing I can do now, It's too late." Okay. Then it is. Not for ME though. I am finding new "genius" within me on a steady basis! I have new inspirations and new drive like never before. I am choosing to tap into it now.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by jawillie

Can I pop in here?

Everyone has the potential to be "great." Everyone IS "great." Everyone IS "genius."

If they don't express it, it is because of a whole bunch of limiting beliefs. Their negativity is so thick they don't even have a clue as to what it is they could be great doing or being... they don't see the genius within.

I haven't read Power of Now, so I can't comment on that. But, I have read many other books from Deepak and Chopra to Neale Donald Walsch and others. They ALL point to how we have greatness IN us.. EVERYONE.

It is IN you, are you tapping into it? Are you allowing it to be? It is a limiting belief to say "some have it and some don't and if you don't show it by age X you obviously don't have it." I know this limiting belief well because my husband has it. He is not happy in life. He also tells me everyday, "There is nothing I can do now, It's too late." Okay. Then it is. Not for ME though. I am finding new "genius" within me on a steady basis! I have new inspirations and new drive like never before. I am choosing to tap into it now.

I agree generally in what you are saying. I know there is great potential within each of us. However, if each of us is already great, if each of us is already a genius, then we are back to a level playing field, where being great or a genius is just plain average.

It's a bit like a few years ago - only a few people had an MA, and it was a very desirable qualification to have when applying for a managerial position. Now, everyone sems to have one!

Yes, let's encourage people to improve their skills, let's work at it. But, please don't say you can go from stacking shelves to painting The Last Supper, just by visualizing it, twenty minutes a day. Let's be realistic here.

If your dreams help you get through the day or night, that's fine. I often dream about scoring the winning goal for England in the World Cup final, but is it going to happen?

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by Cantando

I agree generally in what you are saying. I know there is great potential within each of us. However, if each of us is already great, if each of us is already a genius, then we are back to a level playing field, where being great or a genius is just plain average.

There is always room for growth.

Didn't they close the patent office once because there couldn't possibly be any new ideas left? (yes they did)

It's a bit like a few years ago - only a few people had an MA, and it was a very desirable qualification to have when applying for a managerial position. Now, everyone sems to have one!

I see that as a positive thing, not a negative. I like to see people succeeding in life. That doesn't take anything away from *me*... it adds to society in a positive way.

Yes, let's encourage people to improve their skills, let's work at it. But, please don't say you can go from stacking shelves to painting The Last Supper, just by visualizing it, twenty minutes a day. Let's be realistic here.

If your dreams help you get through the day or night, that's fine. I often dream about scoring the winning goal for England in the World Cup final, but is it going to happen?

See, I disagree with you here. I see it as possible. IF you *really* want something, you WILL do it. If it is an idle daydream, no you won't.

It's not "just" visualizing. It's about looking deep within yourself. Putting a spot light on those fears, lies, limiting beliefs you have held on to as "truth" for all your life. Then, letting them go and replacing them. In doing that you may just find, "No, I really DON'T want to win the World Cup Final." But, you may find other "great" things (to you) that you will accomplish.


So, living in the NOW?? I am starting to feel it. I still do the dishes. I still do my jobs. But I dont' have this constant worry about tomorrow. I am not "worried" about it. Do I have visions for tomorrow? Oh yea!!! But, I am not fretting about tomorrow. I am not saying this is how it is for everyone.

It is important that people not turn this into some sort of a religion. So much gets lost when man takes hold of something and try to give it labels, rules and descriptions. This is probably why I don't look forward to reading the book. Oprah endorses it. I run away from mass-mentality as fast as I can. But, maybe if mass mentality starts down a more compassionate route I can join in? It will take some major "getting used to."

[cylon]

My observation on the miserable artist discussion:

I don't think the great artists have to create because they need to express misery and pain. Of course, being one of these "great artists" myself (lol) I can be in a positive mood, I'll start creating some music and what will come out is very melancholy. I've really struggled with this. I am learning to live a more joyful life, the music is all I want to do, yet when I write, it is usually not this upbeat joyful stuff coming out of me. Yeah, most of my life has been in some sort of mental anguish. Creativity is a good way to channel that energy.

What I'm focusing on now is, just going with it. If that's what comes out of me, I can't fight it. See, my ego is attached to the idea that (get this) in order to write great music, I can't have a happy life. I can't have good things in my life, good relationships, because if I weren't depressed, where's the creativity going to come from? Yet, when I'm feeling down, I do not have the energy to write. It's the last thing I can make myself do. I can force myself, but it's better when I'm amped up THEN sit at the keyboard and start playing. It's kind of a paradox isn't it.

Can't get too intellectual about it though. When you create it just happens, you have to honor it, you have to go with it---because it's happening through you. It's not your ego. It's your real self expressing itself. And perhaps your real self is mourning something, in order to move past it. Don't know. But when I try to make sense of it, I come to a standstill.

My observations on eckhart/oprah/ALG describing real life:

Tolle/Oprah. Dancer turned me onto this webcast series, and I had already read both of his books. Have watched all 10 webcasts, and am now listening to each chapter's audio, repeatedly. Finally clicking.

Why do we BELIEVE that if we were totally present all the time, we would be zombies, ineffective, not able to function? Because that's the ego saying "don't kill me--I'm a parastite that has taken over the host and I will not go away". In essence, when we work on this, we are throwing our identities out the window. Years and years of identity, gone. Now... THAT'S SCARY. Hell it's all I know. You're asking me to burn down my own house?

ALG is describing real life. How life is truly lived from our true nature, separate from completely uneccessary thinking and worrying. It's real. Things flow. Confusion goes away. Things make sense without thinking about them. You're more efficient and relaxed at the same time. And the weird thing is instead of struggling...stuff comes to you. "Damn I hope that guy is there so I can call him--" he calls you. "Gee I want to learn more about XYZ" someone comes over and gives you a book on XYZ. It's F'D UP.

More paradoxes--the less effort, the greater the result.

Of course, it takes practice. Soon the ego comes back and it's business as normal. But--the more you do this-- the more frequent it happens, and you start to have a sense of who you really are. The real you. Behind the thought, just pure awarness. And that's when things get freaky. Still riding the waves. Looking forward to ego lessening more and more.

[cylon]

BTW, watching Tolle on those oprah webcasts, he actually starts talking about LOA, and if you've read Abraham you will see him kind of talking about it. It's not what he focuses on necessarily, but he gets into the result of presence--that you send out a different vibration and those same vibrations come to you, and things just start to happen. LOA. They appear to not go together, but that's ego saying "I can't achieve if I'm not always worrying and planning for tomorrow".

[Patricia]

I've read parts of this thread, but I haven't read everything. I just want to say that I did extract some value from The Power of Now, but from a certain point on it felt like something was slightly off for me. LoA and Tolle's ideas overlap here and there, but that's as far as it goes. There's a lot of contradiction between the two.

I personally incorporated the parts that had value for me, but no matter how hard I tried, some parts of Tolle's teachings just didn't seem to resonate well with me on a deeper level. And I don't think it was my ego trying to protect itself, I fully understand the message and I certainly can put myself in a state of ego dissociation and keep it for long periods of time if I really want to and be really present (I eventually lose that, but I have been able to do that for 3 days in a row). But, unless I'm totally losing the point (which I don't think I am), I still feel like there's something off.

When Steve posted the article "The War on Ego" that made a lot of sense to me and shed some serious light on what was off for me. So I'm with Steve in this one.

With that being said, I think that lots of people might have a different experience, so I think each person should embrace what feels right for them. But LoA and Tolle's teachings are not 100% compatible. Like I said, I did find some overlapping, but there are contradictions and this is where each person needs to figure out by themselves what makes more sense for them.

[cylon]

Well at first they do seem incompatible. But at least as far as the Abraham stuff, what does it say? Feel good, now (be present).

I think the war on ego may be misperceived. People associate ego with identity. So to say you're destroying the ego to some (and I thought this as well) means to destroy your identity. But you can't destroy the real self that is behind the thinking. You're not destroying your real self... you're destroying the pattern of habitual thinking and worrying, and the constant focus on tomorrow or yesterday.

Creation is in the present moment. Even if your intention will most likely manifest tomorrow, next week, next year, whatever... it has to be real to you RIGHT NOW, and you have to believe it's real, right now. And you can't feel it's real, now, if your thoughts are on tomorrow.

So you may enjoy watching those webcasts on oprah, the interesting thing is that they have callers who ask these same questions so it's much more of a "real world" type discussion.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by cylon

Well at first they do seem incompatible. But at least as far as the Abraham stuff, what does it say? Feel good, now (be present).

I think the war on ego may be misperceived. People associate ego with identity. So to say you're destroying the ego to some (and I thought this as well) means to destroy your identity. But you can't destroy the real self that is behind the thinking. You're not destroying your real self... you're destroying the pattern of habitual thinking and worrying, and the constant focus on tomorrow or yesterday.

Creation is in the present moment. Even if your intention will most likely manifest tomorrow, next week, next year, whatever... it has to be real to you RIGHT NOW, and you have to believe it's real, right now. And you can't feel it's real, now, if your thoughts are on tomorrow.

This is one of the concepts where I think they overlap. Yes, feel it in the present, be present, let go of attachment to your intention. In other words, the art of allowing. However, our intentions are part of the ego. One could argue that they come from our Higher Self and that can be true, but once we're aware of them and want them to manifest, they become part of the ego. This train of thought led me to the argument that, ok, as long as you don't identify with it, that's the whole point. Which to me sounds a little bit like detachment. And this is all good, except for the fact that we can be detached from the outcome, but that doesn't change the fact that we want it (and it doesn't mean that we're going to think about it in the future necessarily either, we can think about in the present and feel as if we already have it in the present, but this is still all based on "wanting" nonetheless). At this point, it goes completely against the Abraham-Hicks who say that we can never get it done and finding and giving focus to those things we want and will always want is the whole point. I was going through some of the A-H material to find something to quote here about this, but I found so many that, well, that in itself shows the contradiction here - and anyone familiar with the Hicks know what I'm talking about.

All of this got me thinking about a line from "Before Sunset" in which Celine says: "Not wanting anything, isn't that a symptom of depression?"

So, being present is fine and wonderful. When working with the LoA it's essential, both in terms of visualizing and feeling it in the present and being completely focused on whatever manifestation method we're using (and that's where I found part of the value in Tolle's book). However, "killing" the ego as Tolle suggests (and even says that himself in the webcasts, that he killed his ego) means that you're killing the "wanting" behind your intentions. What's the purpose of the physical existence and experience if you kill that? To me this gets way too close to apathy and misses the point of a physical experience.

So, there IS some overlapping, like I said, but the contradictions are still there for me.

Originally Posted by cylon

So you may enjoy watching those webcasts on oprah, the interesting thing is that they have callers who ask these same questions so it's much more of a "real world" type discussion.

I did watch half of them and his answer to one of the callers who asked something among these lines didn't convince me, unfortunately.

[cylon]

Interesting stuff Patricia.

Originally Posted by Patricia

However, "killing" the ego as Tolle suggests (and even says that himself in the webcasts, that he killed his ego) means that you're killing the "wanting" behind your intentions. What's the purpose of the physical existence and experience if you kill that? To me this gets way too close to apathy and misses the point of a physical existence and experience.

I hear you. This was (and still sort of is) one of the biggest stumbling blocks for me regarding this whole topic, LOA, presence, etc.

Even Abraham says, if you are wanting something, you are not experiencing having something. You're experiencing wanting it--manifesting more thoughts and more experiences of wanting--not having. To want is to not have.

Detachment--yeah a lot of us are perplexed by this. Slowly, it's becoming clear to me. I believe it's not so much that you are apathetic, or free of desire, you are simply not FIGHTING the reality of the moment. You spilled the milk on the floor. Clearly, that was not what you would have desired, but it happened. It's real. You can't undo it by saying "milk! Unspill yourself! You did NOT just spill!"

Then extrapolate that, now you can't sleep at night because the milk was spilled on the floor. The horror. I can't believe this happened. I HATE spilled milk. Oh god I'm so mad. Am I ALWAYS going to spill milk? Am I destined to a life of spilled milk? Lol.

The whole time a life of unspilled milk is waiting for you, yet you can't experience it--because you're pre-occupied with the experience of the spilt milk and all the wanting and drama it caused. Hopefully this isn't too silly of an analogy.

I believe that to detach is to create your desire. It's real. You believe it, you know it... so there is no attachment. You already have it. You have total faith it's yours, and real. So there's nothing to cling to, no doubt you could lose it, it's in your reality. And I think the pleasant feelings that come from this, are where the action comes in---you're one with the desire and it starts happening, through you.

Just like you have no attachment to blinking your eyes. You almost take it for granted. I think it's the same thing.

It's taken me quite a bit of searching and struggling with the whole "is detachment the same as not having the desire in the first place" and even now I lose the perspective sometimes. I believe it's a subtle shift in awareness that comes from the abundance mentality, where you naturally KNOW all is provided for. And once that desire manifests, you have a new desire, etc.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Patricia

When Steve posted the article "The War on Ego" that made a lot of sense to me and shed some serious light on what was off for me. So I'm with Steve in this one.

I just clicked that link and read it...but i must have missed something because I don't see where Steve gives any reasons why we need the ego. He talked about using it to help the greater good of humanity,but why can't you do that without an ego? I would think it would work BETTER actually.